We need to legalise drugs!

TheInquisitor

The war on drugs has well and truely been lost. America has been fighting drugs for decades longer than us and has not stopped its encroachment on society and it never will.

I think we need to legalise drugs for the following reasons

1) Bring in tax to the economy which is much needed
2) Free up garda resources to deal with other crime
3) Standardise the drugs so that they are much safer than normal to consume, as in since they won't have all the extra crap(rat poison, washing powder etc) in them they will be safer to consume
4) Get rid of the drug dealers that are such a blight on our society. I would antipate a massive fall in murders etc

I think this could work in a pharmacist kind of way. The goverment supplies the pharmacies with the drugs( which they grow in protected green houses) and then the pharmacies can sell them on. The governement brings in hundreds of millions in taxes and creates thousands of jobs, also possibly increasing tourism like amsterdam.

Anyone have any ideas on if this could work?

Dozen Wicked Words

Do you mean just legalising Cannabis or all drugs?

The idea is interesting but doubtful legalisation would work. Fags are legal but people still smuggle them. Petrol is readily available but smugglers go North to get cheaper fuel, people can readily buy designer handbags,clothes etc but many would prefer cheap knock offs. Video games are not legal but piracy is rife.

The end product of legalisation would mean more people would end up using, and whatever supposed savings you made on Garda time, or money made on tax would be used up on healthcare costs.

grenache

TheInquisitor wrote: »

The war on drugs has well and truely been lost. America has been fighting drugs for decades longer than us and has not stopped its encroachment on society and it never will.

I think we need to legalise drugs for the following reasons

1) Bring in tax to the economy which is much needed
2) Free up garda resources to deal with other crime
3) Standardise the drugs so that they are much safer than normal to consume, as in since they won't have all the extra crap(rat poison, washing powder etc) in them they will be safer to consume
4) Get rid of the drug dealers that are such a blight on our society. I would antipate a massive fall in murders etc

I think this could work in a pharmacist kind of way. The goverment supplies the pharmacies with the drugs( which they grow in protected green houses) and then the pharmacies can sell them on. The governement brings in hundreds of millions in taxes and creates thousands of jobs, also possibly increasing tourism like amsterdam.

Anyone have any ideas on if this could work?

And have even more people killed on our roads through stoners driving while under the influence of drugs? Not to mention the heavy toll it would take on our health system, trying to fix those people with psychological and physical problems due to drug abuse.

However bad you think it is now, i guarantee you it would be much worse if drugs were legalised. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

peanuthead

I dont really know where I stand on this to be honest.

It is true that so much money is wasted on the war against drugs, which is well and truly lost, but is legalisation really the answer?

How long before we have widespread gun culture and ghettos along with it?

And I also don't think that legalising drugs will prevent the illegal smuggling of them.

peanuthead

grenache wrote: »

Not to mention the heavy toll it would take on our health system, trying to fix those people with psychological and physical problems due to drug abuse.

Well to be honest, we're doing that already, the difference with legalising drugs is that at least they will be contributing to their care with the taxes paid on the drugs. At the moment, we're paying the Gardai to try catch these feckers, and paying for their medical costs too.

glennb

i have replyed to a thread similar to this and thaught it was a good idea

but thinking about it again it might not be such a good 1.would tax of the drugs make them more dear than what ever the prices of them are now maby whatever the gov do to make them weaker will make the junkies think i will take more and more untill they od. then there would be the thing of where will sell them if it is in a chemist would there not be atempted roberies at them as there would not be much ways to tell if what was stolen was theirs or not and having to go into a chemist and ask for the equvilant of herion and someone seeing you it would probly be embarresing amd how many people would want to live next to a 30 year old crack head in fareness

Fallen Buckshot

I think what the op is saying is that people are going to do what they want regardless so why not make money off of it and maybe even boost the economy

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

grenache

peanuthead wrote: »

Well to be honest, we're doing that already, the difference with legalising drugs is that at least they will be contributing to their care with the taxes paid on the drugs. At the moment, we're paying the Gardai to try catch these feckers, and paying for their medical costs too.

Yes we are, but with legalisation, you would see a huge increase in the numbers of irish adults using recreational drugs, thus the health system will be under a much greater burden than it is now. I think its like 10% of irish adults are regular drug users, well i think that figure would shoot up to 30 or 40% if they were legalised. Drugs, even in moderation, are bad for people's health, and i think thats the bottom line here.

raindog.promo

grenache wrote: »

have even more people killed on our roads through stoners driving while under the influence of drugs?

Can you back up this statement with figures and sources?

grenache wrote: »

you would see a huge increase in the numbers of irish adults using recreational drugs...............

I think its like 10% of irish adults are regular drug users,

cough, cough...ALCOHOL cough, cough......

Joey the lips

Hi Inq

I have spent a lot of time researching this topic. I have actually campagned with 2 political parties in the past turning up at there ard fheis trying to see the results of the motion. No I am not a double party standard. I worked with the youth service

However I started to research the subject further and looked abroad to places like holland etc!

I came to the conclusion and the "Economist" Section will confirm this, that legalising drugs will do nothing for them other than make them more freely available. Ciggerates is a classic example! Further more as cannibas relies on the use of tabacco I believe legalising it will only increase the level of smokers in the country.

I do not believe in the argument that the tax on the product can be put into the healthservice. This is a dream to believe this will happen! I do not believe the arguement that if the drug is legalised its easier to control.; This is pure bullsh1t and there is no proof behind it.

Lastly.... We live in a society where a number of people believe that all drugs should be legalised! Is it any coincidence that these people come from working class areas which thend to make the lowest contrabution to society and will no doubt have the lowest turn out in the elections yesterday

So you see this will never happen in my opinion.

But I am a fair person. I have the feeling that I am going to get a few responses to this!

If one person can convince me the merrits of legalising drugs and provide links to prove there point. Guess what I will embrace the notion and even argue it on your behalf.....

Are you up to the challenge. Or is your comment going to be simple.... in all ways

All this is said with the greatest respect towards all ye posters.

peanuthead

raindog.promo wrote: »

Can you back up this statement with figures and sources?




cough, cough...ALCOHOL cough, cough......

There is a tax on alcohol though. They are in some sense of the word paying for their care, well, at least contributing to it anyway.

NilByMouth

I notice a few of the posters have brought up points such as:

1)there would be an increase in drug use if it was legalised

2)an increase in cigarettes sales due to the fact that they are used in joints

3)an increase in road fatalities due to 'stoners' driving about.

for point 1,with hash being legalised in holland the %of heroine addicts is no better/worse than in countries that enforce criminalisation of drugs.

the fact is if a person is into doing drugs(of any kind)they will do them!Doesnt matter to them whether it is illegal or not.So if they were legalised I doubt you would see an increase in users,an increase in road deaths or even more pressure on our health service because they are already using the drugs,buying cigs gor there joints,turning up in hospital with chest infectionss and driving around stoned!

I think they should be legalised just from a hjealth and safety point of view.It would also take away a lot of power from the drug gangs.Some people have death wishes and will get themselves addicted to heroine or crack anyway.Better the state gets the money than drug dealers.

Joey the lips

NilByMouth wrote: »

I notice a few of the posters have brought up points such as:

1)there would be an increase in drug use if it was legalised

2)an increase in cigarettes sales due to the fact that they are used in joints

3)an increase in road fatalities due to 'stoners' driving about.

for point 1,with hash being legalised in holland the %of heroine addicts is no better/worse than in countries that enforce criminalisation of drugs.

the fact is if a person is into doing drugs(of any kind)they will do them!Doesnt matter to them whether it is illegal or not.So if they were legalised I doubt you would see an increase in users,an increase in road deaths or even more pressure on our health service because they are already using the drugs,buying cigs gor there joints,turning up in hospital with chest infectionss and driving around stoned!

I think they should be legalised just from a hjealth and safety point of view.It would also take away a lot of power from the drug gangs.Some people have death wishes and will get themselves addicted to heroine or crack anyway.Better the state gets the money than drug dealers.

As i said and you should have noticed. If you have no proof to back up your belief its not accurate. This is not the god thread. Proof is need I am sorry

Oh and the second point! If you can actually prove it I will eat my shorts.

Would you go away and get real! this is suppose to be a serious conversation not after hours!

raindog.promo

I doubt you would see an increase in users,an increase in road deaths or even more pressure on our health service because they are already using the drugs,buying cigs gor there joints,turning up in hospital with chest infectionss and driving around stoned!

Joey the lips wrote: »

If you can actually prove it I will eat my shorts.

How can you prove this without a country first legalising the drugs. Where could you get reliable data from.

Joey the lips

raindog.promo wrote: »

How can you prove this without a country first legalising the drugs. Where could you get reliable data from.

Well I will make it easier cause I dont want to seem arrogant which I promise I am not!

If you can prove the arguement for legalising drugs i will be very greatful. Cause I cant! and I tried, So I am of the opinion that it should never be legal, In fact if i had my way smoking would be illegal as well.

NilByMouth

Will try and route some proof for you Joey.Im well aware its not AH.What type of shorts you wearing:D

Do you honestly think that having drugs illegal stops anybody from doing them.What purpose does it serve having them illegal?

as it stands with them being illegal means that they are mixed with poison(they are even spraying grass with lead to increase its weight!!),fuels organised crime in a big way.

Having said that I dont think it will ever be completely legalised anywhere.But i think they should at least decrimilise(spelling?)possion of drugs for personal use.No point giving a recreational drug user a record.Thats my opinion and im entitled to it.

turgon

Good article here in the economist:
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13237193&source=most_recommended

I agree with this for two reasons:
1) here are obviously tax benefits to be had, and health benefits with minimum standards.
2) If someone wants to smoke cannabis, and is not effecting anyone, thats their own business. People like Joey should have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do when it clearly has no impact on others.

Anyway, most people are only against because they think drugs are immoral. All this stuff about health and driving is just an excuse.

Joey the lips

NilByMouth wrote: »

Will try and route some proof for you Joey.Im well aware its not AH.What type of shorts you wearing:D

Do you honestly think that having drugs illegal stops anybody from doing them.What purpose does it serve having them illegal?

as it stands with them being illegal means that they are mixed with poison(they are even spraying grass with lead to increase its weight!!),fuels organised crime in a big way.

Having said that I dont think it will ever be completely legalised anywhere.But i think they should at least decrimilise(spelling?)possion of drugs for personal use.No point giving a recreational drug user a record.Thats my opinion and im entitled to it.

Do you honestly think that having them legal wont increase the useage. The arguement is endless but the conclusion is the same. No to legalisation! If your worried about poision dont take them. Its the same with poitin and moonshine see the arguement is flawed. Sorry

anonymous_joe

Criminalise a market and it will be run by criminals.

If you took the drugs market from the criminals you could standardise (and weaken) the products on offer, safer for all, profit, and well, what else do you want?

You have to assume people will take drugs. That's an assumption few politicians would be willing to publically agree with. Look at America, the war on drugs is a total fcuk up, certain cities are riven with drugs and drug gangs, and yet they still persist in trotting out the old doctrines.

Joey the lips

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Criminalise a market and it will be run by criminals.

If you took the drugs market from the criminals you could standardise (and weaken) the products on offer, safer for all, profit, and well, what else do you want?

You have to assume people will take drugs. That's an assumption few politicians would be willing to publically agree with. Look at America, the war on drugs is a total fcuk up, certain cities are riven with drugs and drug gangs, and yet they still persist in trotting out the old doctrines.

Thats not an arguement to legalise drugs in fairness. This is just a rant! I am off to read turgons article who so far is the only one to provide actual proof.

Think of this.... If you find it hard to convince me, someone who actually is open minded on the subject, how are you going to convince someone who is closed!

youcrazyjesus!

Joey the lips wrote: »

Do you honestly think that having them legal wont increase the useage.

They're already freely available.

The arguement is endless but the conclusion is the same. No to legalisation! If your worried about poision dont take them. Its the same with poitin and moonshine see the arguement is flawed. Sorry

If alcohol was made illegal tomorrow would you give up drinking? Who would import and sell alcohol?

This man would not have died had he bought a commercial product in a shop.

youcrazyjesus!

Joey the lips wrote: »

Thats not an arguement to legalise drugs in fairness. This is just a rant! I am off to read turgons article who so far is the only one to provide actual proof.

Think of this.... If you find it hard to convince me, someone who actually is open minded on the subject, how are you going to convince someone who is closed!

Criminalisation has been a total and complete failure swallowing up billions and billions in resources and losing billions and billions more in taxes. Recreational drugs could fund a cure for cancer and send men to Mars. I'm not joking. The money legalisation would generate for education, health and research is astronomical. Right now the only people who profit from drugs are criminal gangs who we spend billions worldwide chasing and imprisoning, banks and bankers, questionable governments in Burma, terrorist gangs & scum like the IRA who took money off drug dealers and allowed them continue to operate under the cover of Concerned Provos Against Drugs.

Sqaull20

They could do an Amsterdam, but the knackers would probably ruin it for everyone!!!.Galway for example would be a good spot to have the coffee shops :pac: Good money earner :P

TheInquisitor

dooferoaks wrote: »

Do you mean just legalising Cannabis or all drugs?

The idea is interesting but doubtful legalisation would work. Fags are legal but people still smuggle them. Petrol is readily available but smugglers go North to get cheaper fuel, people can readily buy designer handbags,clothes etc but many would prefer cheap knock offs. Video games are not legal but piracy is rife.

The end product of legalisation would mean more people would end up using, and whatever supposed savings you made on Garda time, or money made on tax would be used up on healthcare costs.

I mean legalising all drugs. Get rid of most of the drug dealers. Standardise all the drugs to make them safer to consume, even less addictive. The people that have to go to hospital for drug use etc would be offset by the fact the drugs are safer so less people would end up going to hospital, also thousands less criminals in jail, safer streets because of freed up garda resources and tax that can offset any increase in health bills.

glennb wrote: »

i have replyed to a thread similar to this and thaught it was a good idea

but thinking about it again it might not be such a good 1.would tax of the drugs make them more dear than what ever the prices of them are now maby whatever the gov do to make them weaker will make the junkies think i will take more and more untill they od. then there would be the thing of where will sell them if it is in a chemist would there not be atempted roberies at them as there would not be much ways to tell if what was stolen was theirs or not and having to go into a chemist and ask for the equvilant of herion and someone seeing you it would probly be embarresing amd how many people would want to live next to a 30 year old crack head in fareness

The point would be trying to limit peoples usage. People can only take class A drugs once a week or something and have it related to their PPS number or seomthing. Yes it would be open to abuse but isn't everything. The price of the drugs could be sold to continually undercut the drug dealers until they are out of business then increased so that they are expensive enough not to be overused but also cheap enough so drug dealers cannot come back.

Fallen Buckshot wrote: »

I think what the op is saying is that people are going to do what they want regardless so why not make money off of it and maybe even boost the economy

Thats exactly it. People will ALWAYS be taking drugs. I for one am not a drug taker and hate people that even smoke cigs. I only smoked hash once in my life back in my younger years. But i think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages

Joey the lips wrote: »

Well I will make it easier cause I dont want to seem arrogant which I promise I am not!

If you can prove the arguement for legalising drugs i will be very greatful. Cause I cant! and I tried, So I am of the opinion that it should never be legal, In fact if i had my way smoking would be illegal as well.

Sure alcohol should be illegal then aswell. Look how well that worked in the USA during prohibition. How long did it take for huge crime syndicates to be set up to import drink. Did people stop drinking. NO. What happened was Al Capone and other crime lords made a fortune, the state lost out on taxes and police resources and there were thousands of murders related to it. If you banned cigarettes now the same would happen. Its good enough that they are banned from all public premises. I'm happy with that.

Pygmalion

People tend to assume that everyone will get stoned and then start driving around in populated areas. Any real reason for this assumption?

NilByMouth

Joey your missing the point.You can class people into 2 seperate groups.Those who do drugs and does that dont.

The ones that do will do it regardless of whether its illegal or not.End of story.I dont think anybody out there is not doing drugs because its illegal so therefore there wont be an increase if it was made legal.

anyways Im too stoned for this.Might go for a drive later too while im at it(just down to the shops to buy fags for my joints mind you):pac:

Zuiderzee

I think the current system of prohibition has failed, if anything it makes the situation worse.

By making something such as cannibis illegal, we have given control of the market to criminals.
This gives them a large source of income, outside any fiscal or market control by the state.
They decide the type, potency, price, hours of availability, age of consumption etc - everything the state uses to control alcohol.

I really think that having banned cannabis and placing it in the control of criminals, this is what really makes it a gateway drug

- dealers will sell opiates and other hard drugs at a much higher profit margin for less volume, easier to smuggle, less risk.

Look at it this way - If a business person is making a living from cannabis, and we create much harsher controls or laws for things like opiates, do you think they will risk their livlihood! How many pubs sell drugs from under the counter?

I read recently that by 16 more UK and Irish kids have tried cannibis than their Dutch counterparts.
The vast majority of Dutch friends of mine dont smoke pot. A lot of Irish people I know do.

The health risks of cannibis are apparant, sand can be compared to alcohol and ciggarettes, we tax fags and high potency alcohol like extra strength largers at a higher degree, and limit volume/proof in spirits etc.
Having a legal framework allows for control of strength and quality.

As for the driving arguement, lets ban alcohol then - determining if someone is under the influence is straightforward, so just apply drink driving regulations for drugs.

The main thing for me in decriminalisation/legalisation is that it will give the state more control over who works in the market.
If you have convicted criminals, known to sell hard drugs/be involved in gangland crime, then they can be removed from the equation.

The only proviso I would make is the location and number of outlets.
Rotterdam, Utrecht, Delft, Den Hague, Middleburg etc are all better models than the Amsterdam ne, in which drug tourism can be a problem.
But there are moves under the mayor to clean this issue up.

Pot is just an example, where does one draw the line? I am not sure.
We ban Poiteen, but allow VSOP brandy and Czech Absenth.

The way the Dutch look at it is hard drug users are victims as opposed to criminals.
With centres for hard drug use they are in a controlled environment, and treatment programs go hand in hand with that.

For me at the moment the jury is still out on opiates, chemical drugs and cocaine products - but it is certain the single biggest illegal drug used is cannabis, so deal with that one first.

Oh - BTW - I dont do drugs, just in case anyone is interested

meglome

I'll start by saying I don't do drugs.

But like many others have said it's quite obvious the 'war' on drugs is long lost. I literally see people every single day off their faces and/or taking drugs. Many times they are doing drug deals in the street. I've seen people injecting in dark corners in numerous parts of their bodies. I've seen numerous crimes that I would bet good money on were drug related. All in our capital city. So anyone who thinks the current system is working is mental.

All that said I doubt unrestricted drug selling by the state would be a positive thing. I do think though we should allow addicts to register and we should give them drugs because at least it would stop most of the robbing that goes on to feed their habits. By giving them purer drugs they would be less likely to die and need medical treatment.

Joey the lips

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055584877


If you lived beside this I think you would have a different view on drug legalisation!

SeanW

Well, I personally have no interest in smoking cannibis and after some recent lifestyle changes, the idea appeals to me even less. However, I approach this from a case of "live and let live." Since pot smoking requires a 50/50 mix of tobacco and cannibis, I think you'd have to be a pretty big moron to do it. But it's none of my business if you do.

@JoeyTheLips: if you want to see what the drugs laws have done to our society, just take a look at the Prohibition of Alcohol in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s. It mirrors almost down to the last detail, what the drugs laws are doing today.
And I mean literally everything: from the poor quality and hazardous products, to the massive underworld created by the Prohibition (Prohibition was the bread and butter of the Al Capone gang, which made most of its blood money smuggling bootleg alcohol) to the secondary effect on society of all that crime.

Even if you wanted to continue fighting the "war on drugs" it would be easier if you took cannibis, out of the "gateway drug" equation by taking it out of the hands of the peddlers.

Now we've taxed the bejesus out of everyone to pay for this stupid and lost-cause drug war, pushing our economies to the brink and even now, Northern Mexico is on the brink of falling into a failed narco-state, all brought on by the black market handed to these gangs by the U.S. Legislature. Even sick people with conditions like MS, cannot get therapeutic (sp?) weed which a lot of sick people swear by.

I consider this immoral.

But no doubt the answers proposed will include more Statism, more regulation and lead to more problems :mad:

What annoys me a little about social conservatives with their determination to impose and maintain these kinds of laws against personal behaviour & choices like drugs and prostitution, is that in calling for these things to remain banned, they're saying not only is it their business to tell everyone else how to live their lives, they're also saying its MY business to do this as well since these laws are made as much on my behalf as a citizen as anyone else.

Executive Steve

Drugs are getting cheaper and more affordable year in year out

The average purity of most drugs on the market has been rising year in year out

Please don't legalise them, it's grand the way it is.

youcrazyjesus!

Joey the lips wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055584877


If you lived beside this I think you would have a different view on drug legalisation!

Why? What would change?

Mac Masters

It depends I can understand peoples views on the negative aspects but realistically legalising drugs would be alot better for the economy. So much money is leaving the country through the black market. So large quantities of money are leaving the country and going unrecorded! This means when interest and inflation are calculated they are based on bigger numbers than they should be! So to help us in this economic climate we should legalise drugs, then there are also the other benefits such as that for which Amsterdam benefits such as the mature approach to taking drugs there. Plus think how many more tourists we would get!

In times like these, you've got to do what you got to do! :cool:

turgon

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

Please don't legalise them, it's grand the way it is.

Ah sure tis grand - theres only blood wars in Limerick in Dublin and intimidation everywhere. And lets not get started on the farmers abroad forced to grow drugs with their live threatened. Sure tis all grand.

SeanW wrote: »

What annoys me a little about social conservatives with their determination to impose and maintain these kinds of laws against personal behaviour & choices like drugs and prostitution, is that in calling for these things to remain banned, they're saying not only is it their business to tell everyone else how to live their lives, they're also saying its MY business to do this as well since these laws are made as much on my behalf as a citizen as anyone else.

+1. Live and let live.

turgon

The principal argument against legalisation is moral: people thinking that smoking pot is immoral. Which is fair enough when applied to ones own life and I personally have never once used any drug.

However these social conservatives feel they need to force everyone to believe this. My question to Joey: why cant you let people make up their own mind? Why do they have to be forced to believe what you do?

The other arguments against such as bad for health etc are just excuses and nothing more. Social conservatives are great at doing this: forming excuses for their tendency to be totalitarian on social issues. However its all untrue and the only single reason they are against it is because they believe it immoral.

And Im saying this as someone who, under 1 year ago, had virtually the exact same opinion on this issue as Joey does now.

Joey the lips

SeanW wrote: »

@JoeyTheLips: if you want to see what the drugs laws have done to our society, just take a look at the Prohibition of Alcohol in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s. It mirrors almost down to the last detail, what the drugs laws are doing today.
And I mean literally everything: from the poor quality and hazardous products, to the massive underworld created by the Prohibition (Prohibition was the bread and butter of the Al Capone gang, which made most of its blood money smuggling bootleg alcohol) to the secondary effect on society of all that crime.

.

With due respect I did say at the start this would happen I refuse to get into an arguement withourt example and by that i mean propper examples.

Cigerattes are legal but yet a black market in crime flurishes because supply is there all that the black market needs to do is change the control of supply and they make massive profits

with the exception of Turgon I have not read a decent arguement that tells me why drugs should be legalised nor have I seen an actual test case working.

You can direct all comments and be as critical as you want but without proof you have not a chance and if you cannot prove it to me. Good luck proving it to the realworld.

While i agree with Turgons link it to needs more substance to make it work in the real world and for those who say they cannot be interested in proving it to me... Fine you dont need to but like i said if you cant convince me. Goodluck at getting it legal!

TheInquisitor

Joey the lips wrote: »

With due respect I did say at the start this would happen I refuse to get into an arguement withourt example and by that i mean propper examples.

Cigerattes are legal but yet a black market in crime flurishes because supply is there all that the black market needs to do is change the control of supply and they make massive profits

with the exception of Turgon I have not read a decent arguement that tells me why drugs should be legalised nor have I seen an actual test case working.

You can direct all comments and be as critical as you want but without proof you have not a chance and if you cannot prove it to me. Good luck proving it to the realworld.

While i agree with Turgons link it to needs more substance to make it work in the real world and for those who say they cannot be interested in proving it to me... Fine you dont need to but like i said if you cant convince me. Goodluck at getting it legal!

There is a massive difference in legalising drugs and using cigarettes as an example for a black market. First of all cigarettes are imported illegally in here because of the high cost of cigarettes in ireland and low cost elsewhere also because cigarettes are so easy to get into the country because they are not illegal. People from poland couldn't stuff their cases full of cannibas and come over here.

Cannibas and other drugs would be manufactured in ireland and sold at high quality and low cost compared to other suppliers(drug dealers) for the simple reason that most of the costs of drugs are in the cost of importing them which makes up more than 80% of the total cost.

Ireland Inc would always be able to undercut drug dealers so it would be impossible for a large black market to stay afloat or thrive, in fact the black market would collapse.

MikeC101

Joey the lips wrote: »

With due respect I did say at the start this would happen I refuse to get into an arguement withourt example and by that i mean propper examples.

Cigerattes are legal but yet a black market in crime flurishes because supply is there all that the black market needs to do is change the control of supply and they make massive profits

with the exception of Turgon I have not read a decent arguement that tells me why drugs should be legalised nor have I seen an actual test case working.

You can direct all comments and be as critical as you want but without proof you have not a chance and if you cannot prove it to me. Good luck proving it to the realworld.

While i agree with Turgons link it to needs more substance to make it work in the real world and for those who say they cannot be interested in proving it to me... Fine you dont need to but like i said if you cant convince me. Goodluck at getting it legal!

Well, Portugal decriminalised personal possession of all drugs at the end of 2002, Time have a fairly good article on how it worked out here:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

They say between 2001 and 2006 "rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half."

Scientific American found much the same in their article

"the number of deaths from street drug overdoses dropped from around 400 to 290 annually, and the number of new HIV cases caused by using dirty needles to inject heroin, cocaine and other illegal substances plummeted from nearly 1,400 in 2000 to about 400 in 2006"

Both of those articles are based on the same report from the Cato institute, but it seems, based on strictly empirical evidence, the Portugese experiment was a success.

MikeC101

As an aside, it's interesting that it's Portugal - which I'd have thought to be a bit on the conservative side, and very Catholic - that has the most liberal drug laws in the EU isn't it, rather than the more obvious Netherlands?

Zuiderzee

I have found the Dutch are generally conservative, particularly outside of the Randstaad.
But their main ethos is tolerance in the same way that Irish people generally believe in freedom for smaller nations and self determination

anonymous_joe

MikeC101 wrote: »

As an aside, it's interesting that it's Portugal - which I'd have thought to be a bit on the conservative side, and very Catholic - that has the most liberal drug laws in the EU isn't it, rather than the more obvious Netherlands?

The Dutch being liberal is a stereotype. I went out with a Dutch girl and talking to her about politics, they weren't radically different from anyone else.

Regarding the Portugese experiment, you point out your surprise that a potentially conservative country would be an unlikely candidate for such measures, and therein lies the problem - people's issues with drugs are moral, not legal.

If someone smokes weed to get high, (ignoring any laws here) many people would view it as a morally wrong act. Those same people would happily ignore the fact that many people drink alcohol to get drunk. It's merely moral repugnance at the idea that keeps it from being pursued.

And here would be one point I'd make - we don't really know what would happen if drugs were legalised, but the Portugese experiment (which I was unaware of) is indicative of the trends many of us would suggest would be noticed after certain drugs were legalised. Without any experimentation we've no idea if we could make things better.

Joey the lips

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_for_and_against_drug_prohibition


Actually in the simpleist of places I have just found both sides. I am following the locals at the moment but when I read it. As i states earlier I will probably eat my shorts! Then again is eating the moths knickers allowed! at least I will enjoy it

jonsnow

Having seen a tv documentary on the decriminalisation of drugs in Portugal I,m all for it.It lowered the use across the country and this was even with the fear that it had become a mecca for junkies from across the EU.And for you law and order lovers the portugese police could still go after the dealers (as quantities over a certain amount were still illegal) and doubled the amount they captured.They could put all their resources into real police work instead of chasing bottomfeeders.
To anyone who thinks fighting a war on drugs is a worthwhile endeavour though watch The Wire or The Corner.It always becomes a war on the underclass of a society and it is pointless.

MikeC101

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The Dutch being liberal is a stereotype. I went out with a Dutch girl and talking to her about politics, they weren't radically different from anyone else.

I should have been a bit clearer maybe - I just meant liberal in relation to their drug laws - that the Netherlands is probably the first place that would spring to mind for liberal drug laws.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Regarding the Portugese experiment, you point out your surprise that a potentially conservative country would be an unlikely candidate for such measures, and therein lies the problem - people's issues with drugs are moral, not legal.

If someone smokes weed to get high, (ignoring any laws here) many people would view it as a morally wrong act. Those same people would happily ignore the fact that many people drink alcohol to get drunk. It's merely moral repugnance at the idea that keeps it from being pursued.

And here would be one point I'd make - we don't really know what would happen if drugs were legalised, but the Portugese experiment (which I was unaware of) is indicative of the trends many of us would suggest would be noticed after certain drugs were legalised. Without any experimentation we've no idea if we could make things better.

Yes would have to agree with this. It's also interesting to note that while it was the Socialist Party, backed by the Communist Party that introduced the decriminalising of drugs, when the conservative Social Democrats came to power a year later, they chose to leave these laws in place. I suppose that they could see it was having a good effect, and the actual benefits outweighed their moral opposition to it.

Joey the lips

So yes having read the articles and being of the mind unless someone convinces me otherwise I would accept the legalisatation of drugs. Taking certain classes first and seeing how the expirament goes if you catch my drift. 2 questions come to mind

1. How do you do away with the dealers! In the case of Portaagal they still have dealing as an offence. Does ireland Inc grow the drugs market and distribute the drugs themselves. Is this possibly the first success Ireland inc could have in privatisations. Could the wall being built around the bubble that is thornton hall be used to grow drugs behind

2. There is an arguement in the articles that you will get no politician to agree the legalisation of drugs. They accept it behind the scenes but will never be seen to accept it.To me it equates to a man saying he likes kinky sex. He never admits it to the friends but women constantly talk what they are expected to do. btt -so how do we go about raising the debate? As was obvious with the running of ming the mercelious recently it wont work canvassing in its present format. Do we get a drug conncillor ro run as independent! Then if he fails how would he get his job back. In our society it hardly seems acceptable to allow someone try reform a drug addict when they believe in it....


You see what we really need in liberal ireland is to bring drugs out. I thing the first stage of a debate is to encourage a national debate on the subject.....

anonymous_joe

Joey the lips wrote: »

So yes having read the articles and being of the mind unless someone convinces me otherwise I would accept the legalisatation of drugs. Taking certain classes first and seeing how the expirament goes if you catch my drift. 2 questions come to mind

1. How do you do away with the dealers! In the case of Portaagal they still have dealing as an offence. Does ireland Inc grow the drugs market and distribute the drugs themselves. Is this possibly the first success Ireland inc could have in privatisations. Could the wall being built around the bubble that is thornton hall be used to grow drugs behind

2. There is an arguement in the articles that you will get no politician to agree the legalisation of drugs. They accept it behind the scenes but will never be seen to accept it.To me it equates to a man saying he likes kinky sex. He never admits it to the friends but women constantly talk what they are expected to do. btt -so how do we go about raising the debate? As was obvious with the running of ming the mercelious recently it wont work canvassing in its present format. Do we get a drug conncillor ro run as independent! Then if he fails how would he get his job back. In our society it hardly seems acceptable to allow someone try reform a drug addict when they believe in it....


You see what we really need in liberal ireland is to bring drugs out. I thing the first stage of a debate is to encourage a national debate on the subject.....

You do away with the dealers by requiring licencing or some kind of control mechanism to show who can and cannot sell drugs.

Maybe head shops, off licences, chemists, whatever, but some means by which you control who does it. Dealing is presumably very lucrative, in that any middleman makes a lot of profit.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Beau

You don't have to mix tobacco with cannabis by the way, most people don't in Canada.

Joey the lips

So does anybody have any proposals to do something about it. Like i said considering the approch of ming wont work.....????

joseph brand

Joey the lips wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055584877


If you lived beside this I think you would have a different view on drug legalisation!

This is a society where heroin is ILLEGAL! Everything is fine and dandy with prohibition is it?

There are no junkies on Dublin streets because they told us it is illegal to do so. :P

Take your head out.