If you don't vote today people!

TheInquisitor

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Orion

I agree completely. If you don't vote you lose the right to complain about the outcome.

Zuiderzee

in Galway station, heading back to Connemara to vote - travelled from Rotterdam in Holland to do this....

Please vote, and as Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam said - if you dont - let them put that on your f-ing headstone

Raiser

Please vote - you may be too tired after work and start making up sh|t excuses not to - but be assured that the small-minded, closed-minded, religious-fundamental-nutjobs, Fianna Fail Failures and other undesirables will have been at the Polling Station since the crack of dawn to make their idiotic and stilted choices become your daily reality and misfortune !!!!!

- Democracy is too important a thing to just be left to the electorate

MysticalSoul

Just back from my polling station, and only 30% turnout :eek:. I would have thought it would have much higher, for a change.

TheInquisitor

Its meant to have been slighty higher than the 59 % last time. At that i say SLIGHTLY! Oh well thats 40% anyway that cant complain. They'll be bored ****less!

MysticalSoul

MysticalSoul wrote: »

Just back from my polling station, and only 30% turnout :eek:. I would have thought it would have much higher, for a change.

bout 275 of 750 had voted at around half 7 when I went in.


edit: In whitehall.

cooker3

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

No

P. Breathnach

Macros42 wrote: »

I agree completely. If you don't vote you lose the right to complain about the outcome.

No, you don't. But I think that people should give less weight to your complaints.

[What about people who voted the wrong way?]

TheInquisitor

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No, you don't. But I think that people should give less weight to your complaints.

[What about people who voted the wrong way?]

Everyone makes mistakes!

phantom_lord

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Vote or shut up complaining about things!

if my only choice is between inept gob****e a, and inept gob****e b, and i decide to abstain i still think i'm quite entitled to complain. there's no one that i feel deserves my vote.

Taxipete29

People who complain about no decent candidates rarely take enough interest in the political process. If they got involved maybe they could take part in the candidate selection process.

Nobody listens to people who only talk about problems without presenting any solutions.

DeVore

I'm not clear how the right to vote and the right to freedom of expression are linked....

DeV.

ronkmonster

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

right. cause my concerns don't matter cause i didn't want to make a 4 hour round trip to vote to punish FF. i have no interest in local elections.

Taxipete29

DeVore wrote: »

I'm not clear how the right to vote and the right to freedom of expression are linked....

DeV.

The right to vote is a freedom of expression and a pretty important one. It offers individuals a say in how the country is run.

I have no problem with people who dont wish to vote, its their choice and democracy wouldnt work if we forced people to vote.

We are all afforded the right to complain if we wish, but it achieves nothing if you dont back it up with actions.

jhegarty

Lets try it a different way.

If you don't vote you are free to complain , but I am free not to listen to you.

TheInquisitor

ronkmonster wrote: »

right. cause my concerns don't matter cause i didn't want to make a 4 hour round trip to vote to punish FF. i have no interest in local elections.

I drove 9 hours from the south of england(dorchester specifically) to be here for the vote. There was a person further up in the thread that came from Rotterdam. Your 4 hours is pitiless!

ronkmonster

not much of an action if it's just a vote to punish the government.
maybe a FF candidate in a council was the best choice but people voted against him/her because of the central government incompetencies.

phantom_lord

jhegarty wrote: »

If you don't vote you are free to complain , but I am free not to listen to you.

why?

ronkmonster

ronkmonster wrote: »

i have no interest in local elections.

TheInquisitor wrote: »

I drove 9 hours from the south of england(dorchester specifically) to be here for the vote. There was a person further up in the thread that came from Rotterdam. Your 4 hours is pitiless!

(assuming)why vote for local elections (or even dail elections) if you don't live here?

shall i just blame the people who voted today when nothing improves rather than the government since i have no say

TheInquisitor

ronkmonster wrote: »

(assuming)why vote for local elections (or even dail elections) if you don't live here?

shall i just blame the people who voted today when nothing improves rather than the government since i have no say

I never said i wasn't living here. I was over in england working and came home early to vote.

Sure your parents voted with you in mind. Blame them

ronkmonster

TheInquisitor wrote: »

I never said i wasn't living here. I was over in england working and came home early to vote.

Sure your parents voted with you in mind. Blame them

hence the assuming in previous post.

my parents vote for their own agenda. not mine.

my main reason for not voting is because i didn't know the candidates since i don't live there anymore - and i don't vote for parties.

Rb

Personally have no interest in talking about politics (international, national or local) with someone who hasn't been arsed researching those running properly or being too lazy to get out and go to the polls.

If you're unhappy with how things are in your local area, or the country or how we're represented in the EU and are given a chance to change it, and decide not to, then you should keep your mouth shut afterwards, simple as.

Funnily enough if we decided to bring in a system whereby those who continually pass on their votes are no longer entitled to one, I bet they'd be out in their hoardes at the polls.

Low turnouts are quite typical of us Irish though, all talk and no action and that is why our country is where it is today.

TheInquisitor

ronkmonster wrote: »

hence the assuming in previous post.

my parents vote for their own agenda. not mine.

my main reason for not voting is because i didn't know the candidates since i don't live there anymore - and i don't vote for parties.

Ha change your residency, you'd swear you had mountains to climb to be able to vote. You have no excuse

phantom_lord

Rb wrote: »

If you're unhappy with how things are in your local area, or the country or how we're represented in the EU and are given a chance to change it.

my point was that i haven't been given that chance.

amacachi

Everyone should vote, even people who don't know anything about politics and are just voting randomly. That's proper democracy.

TheInquisitor

phantom_lord wrote: »

my point was that i haven't been given that chance.

If your not happy with the current selection of canditates but want your voice heard then run yourself. There's always another option.

heyjude

ronkmonster wrote: »

not much of an action if it's just a vote to punish the government.
maybe a FF candidate in a council was the best choice but people voted against him/her because of the central government incompetencies.

Fair enough, but I'm pretty sure that at the last local elections, every Fianna Fail candidate in the country was crowing about the success that Fianna Fail had brought to the country, the Celtic Tiger etc and seeking to take advantage of this success to gather votes at a local level. So if it was okay then for local Fianna Fail politicians to claim credit for national economic success they attribute to the Fianna Fail led government during the boom, then surely when a Fianna Fail led government leads us into the worst economic mess since the 1930's, it is reasonable enough for the voter to punish these self same representatives of the main party in government. It stands to reason that if you claim credit for the boom, you'll get blamed for the bust.

HAPPYGIRL

phantom_lord wrote: »

if my only choice is between inept gob****e a, and inept gob****e b, and i decide to abstain i still think i'm quite entitled to complain. there's no one that i feel deserves my vote.

No you are not entitled to complain. What you should do in those circumstances is get informed, examine their policies and priorities and decide who is the lesser gob****e. Then vote for them and keep the bigger gob****e out hopefully.

ninty9er

TheInquisitor wrote: »

I drove 9 hours from the south of england(dorchester specifically) to be here for the vote. There was a person further up in the thread that came from Rotterdam. Your 4 hours is pitiless!

I think you meant pitiful Bobby and if the people here got the text about your voting intentions that I got you would't be a popular person.

Whoever said the FF vote would be out in force and making an effort wasn't far wrong;)

TheInquisitor

ninty9er wrote: »

I think you meant pitiful Bobby and if the people here got the text about your voting intentions that I got you would't be a popular person.

Whoever said the FF vote would be out in force and making an effort wasn't far wrong;)

Ninty9er i doubt you were very popular over the last week knocking on peoples doors!! I'm a closet one...you openly wear the t-shirt!

Kevster

I have the right to vote but didn't exercise it. I have lost faith in democracy over the past few years. My scepticism has been heightened immensely recently by the scandal over in the UK regarding expense-claims. I see politicians as liars.

... ...that said, OP, you will be happy to hear that I won't be complaining about whoever gets elected. Why? - because I don't give a damn who gets elected. Vote Mr. Blobby or Tinky-****in'-Winky in and they'd probably do a better job than the current ****.

ninty9er

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Ninty9er i doubt you were very popular over the last week knocking on peoples doors!! I'm a closet one...you openly wear the t-shirt!

Actually lastnight in "Merc-for-the-badge-not-the-car" land (civil servant and teacher country) in Monaleen was the worst. Had about 15 out of 100 argue with me. And you know me, when I know they're wrong I'm like a dog with a bone! There were no votes to be lost by it anyway! Most of those people never voted FF in the first place.

DeVore

Voting or not has no impact on my right to freedom of speech, ergo I am "allowed" to complain even if I didnt vote.

If you're counter argument to that is "ah yes, but I dont have to listen to you" then let me point this:

An idea is not responsible for the person expressing it. If I expressed a "complaint" about something, are you saying you will accord that a different "truthiness"* then if it comes from someone who did vote?

eg: if I say "The taxes in this country are too high", will you deny that because it comes from someone who didnt vote but accept it from someone who did?

Truth is not subjective about who speaks it.


ergo: Neither the validity of a complaint nor the right to make it are affected by whether the speaker voted or not.

Additionally, if you say "I dont have to listen to you"... well, you didnt have to listen to me yesterday either...

DeV.
*to quote Mr Bush.

TheInquisitor

DeVore wrote: »

Voting or not has no impact on my right to freedom of speech, ergo I am "allowed" to complain even if I didnt vote.

If you're counter argument to that is "ah yes, but I dont have to listen to you" then let me point this:

An idea is not responsible for the person expressing it. If I expressed a "complaint" about something, are you saying you will accord that a different "truthiness"* then if it comes from someone who did vote?

eg: if I say "The taxes in this country are too high", will you deny that because it comes from someone who didnt vote but accept it from someone who did?

Truth is not subjective about who speaks it.


ergo: Neither the validity of a complaint nor the right to make it are affected by whether the speaker voted or not.

Additionally, if you say "I dont have to listen to you"... well, you didnt have to listen to me yesterday either...

DeV.
*to quote Mr Bush.

Yes but at least i have a reason not to listen to you now. You have a responsibility to vote

HAPPYGIRL

DeVore wrote: »

Voting or not has no impact on my right to freedom of speech, ergo I am "allowed" to complain even if I didnt vote.

If you're counter argument to that is "ah yes, but I dont have to listen to you" then let me point this:

An idea is not responsible for the person expressing it. If I expressed a "complaint" about something, are you saying you will accord that a different "truthiness"* then if it comes from someone who did vote?

eg: if I say "The taxes in this country are too high", will you deny that because it comes from someone who didnt vote but accept it from someone who did?

Truth is not subjective about who speaks it.


ergo: Neither the validity of a complaint nor the right to make it are affected by whether the speaker voted or not.

Additionally, if you say "I dont have to listen to you"... well, you didnt have to listen to me yesterday either...

DeV.
*to quote Mr Bush.

Well if you feel strongly enough to complain then surely you would have gotten off your ass and voted.

People who feel strongly about freedom of speech must surely hold the right to vote in high regard.

If someone resents high taxes, as per your example, then surely they can find a candidate with similar beliefs and vote for them.

To answer your question then yes someone who voted has a more valid reason for complaint then someone who didn't. Because at least they used their voice and tried to get a public representative elected who just might be able to make a difference.

(btw -1 for quoting Mr Bush, no matter how apt. )

H_2_Da_Izzo

Apathy is the what is scourging people when it comes to politics, especially young people. Most of my friends either couldn't be bothered (their words) to vote or made out that all politicians are crooks anyway.

Politics has become synonymous with brown envelopes, over the top election campagins, incessant satire, the OBAWMA brand and general mistrust of politicians. The image has to be rectified.

More of the general public needs to get involved in politics and have more of a say on what is going on at a local level. Most definitely young people need to be more informed about what politics is actually about.
Write letters to local TDs and councillors, get involved in your local residential committee or parish council, attend local authority meetings.

This is OUR society, not THEIRS. (whoever THEY are because most people can't even name a local councillor)

Like most things in life people take as much as they can and give little in return. Let someone else do the work and let them be blamed when things start to go wrong. That's the mentality.

DeVore

Sorry, I am NOT arguing that it is ok to not vote.


This thread started off saying "if you dont vote you have no right to complain".

I believe I have just shown that "not voting" has no impact on your "right to complain", and additionally that it also has no impact on that validity of that complaint.

Everything else is simply your personal biases and emotive conjecture playing tricks on your logic.

DeV.

DeVore

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Yes but at least i have a reason not to listen to you now. You have a responsibility to vote

Your personal, capricious, reason not to listen to any complaint I might make, has no bearing whatsoever on the OP's point.

I'm just as entitled to complain and my complaint is just as likely to be valid. Whether you choose to listen to it or not for completely spurious reasons is totally beside the point.



DeV.

DeVore

HAPPYGIRL wrote: »

Well if you feel strongly enough to complain then surely you would have gotten off your ass and voted.

People who feel strongly about freedom of speech must surely hold the right to vote in high regard.

So?

How is that in any way related to the statement "if you dont vote you have no right to complain".

I'm at a loss as to why you wrote that. At best you might be making a claim that the probability of the existance of such a person (a non-voting complainer) is low. Thats about the best I can come up with. Sorry

If someone resents high taxes, as per your example, then surely they can find a candidate with similar beliefs and vote for them.

To answer your question then yes someone who voted has a more valid reason for complaint then someone who didn't. Because at least they used their voice and tried to get a public representative elected who just might be able to make a difference.

By that logic anyone who actually VOTED for that candidate has even less "right" to complain. (I notice you softened it to "valid reason for complaint".... previously it was "no right" but I'll let it slide).

However, I'm again suprised that my freedom of speech or any moral claim to use it, is dependant on whether I voted or not. When did they become joined?


DeV.

DeVore

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Just so we dont lose sight of it, that was the first post in this thread.

Macros42 wrote: »

I agree completely. If you don't vote you lose the right to complain about the outcome.

and that was the second.

Both, to me, are ludicrous statements without a shred of logic behind them.

DeV.

cooker3

amacachi wrote: »

Everyone should vote, even people who don't know anything about politics and are just voting randomly. That's proper democracy.

Totally disagree. I much rather someone admit they don't know the candidates and or the issues and not vote then spazz picking someone when they know nothing about them.

sceptre

My view about the right of people to complain hasn't changed since I commented on it in a different thread seven days ago

sceptre wrote: »

Do you have a right to complain if you don't vote? Of course you do. Those who choose not to vote aren't making the effort that results in their most definable opinion on who represents them being counted but democracy is far more than merely voting. Making your opinion explicitly known in public is one of the better things that democracy gives us. Yes, I'm aware that this doesn't just apply to democracies but it's far easier to do in a democratic system. One may place less emphasis on the opinion of another if they didn't take the time to cast their vote and of course that's one's right as a citizen or an inhabitant because having an opinion on someone else's vote (or lack of one) is part of democracy too.

It's worth remembering that some people can't vote. If you're an EU citizen and you're living here less than six months you can't even vote in the Eu elections. Again, perhaps their opinion isn't worth as much as they don't have the experience of the country but their opinions are worth more than nothing. Perhaps someone is away on holidays and doesn't vote. It's a perfect excuse but again, someone who does that didn't vote. People under 18 can't vote (and whether they should be allowed to or not isn't relevant to the core issue here) but they have as much a right to complain as anyone else.

You can place greater or lesser emphasis on the opinion or complaint of someone who does or doesn't vote, who is or isn't within the tax net, is permanently or temporarily resident here, who takes part in their community or chooses not to. But does every inhabitant have an inherent right to complain merely by reason of their inhabitance or existence? Of course they do.

HAPPYGIRL

DeVore wrote: »

So?

How is that in any way related to the statement "if you dont vote you have no right to complain".

I'm at a loss as to why you wrote that. At best you might be making a claim that the probability of the existance of such a person (a non-voting complainer) is low. Thats about the best I can come up with. Sorry

We are actually talking about two very different things here. I had quoted your last post where you were talking about the right to complain.

Not voting doesn't take away your basic right to free speech, but it does make your arguement less valid. In fact why would anyone not vote and then complain afterwards. It makes no sense to me.

However, I'm again suprised that my freedom of speech or any moral claim to use it, is dependant on whether I voted or not. When did they become joined?

I never said they had become joined.
Are you talking about freedom of speech in general terms or are you talking about the right to complain about political issues?

Basically my point was if you are interested enough in politics to voice your disapproval then surely you should be interested enough to vote.

SkepticOne

This thread is getting a little bogged down in the issue of the legal right to complain which of course you have whether or not you vote.

However the OP said:

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

I think it is fairly clear that this applies to those who could have voted but simply could not be bothered, not those who were not eligible to vote or who were out of the country.

I would agree with the basic point that if you choose not to exercise the bit of power you have been given to influence something, you can't then reasonably the next day complain that the decision does not suit you. You had your chance but did not take it.

Diggy78

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Yes but at least i have a reason not to listen to you now. You have a responsibility to vote

A responsibility to vote?? The most ridiculous overused comment. Voting without a proper understanding and for the sake of voting is highly irresponsible in my eyes. Just because you had it drummed into you that it's your responsibility does not make it right.
Of course I'd wish that every voter comes armed with full information and can make clear choices, whatever the result, but this is not the case. The people who vote because they think it is their responsibility but have no idea are a lot worse than those who do not vote at all.

Cunning Alias

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would agree with the basic point that if you choose not to exercise the bit of power you have been given to influence something, you can't then reasonably the next day complain that the decision does not suit you. You had your chance but did not take it.

This is pure logic but from what I have seen, most people wont accept it. I voted for the first time yesterday and I based my votes on my opinions of the individuals I met, and their answers to the questions I had.

Was out on the piss earlier tonight and when I told my mates who I voted for, they instantly replied with stuff like "Why the **** did you vote for them". These same people didn't vote. I dont see how they should have any right to judge my voting choice considering they weren't bothered doing it themselves. If they felt that strongly about one party, why didn't they vote?

I did research into the people I voted for and im happy with my choices. They arent the popular choices for people my age in my area but im happy.

Joey the lips

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Its the moronic nature of the Irish. We want to legalise drugs prostitution and gay adoption but could not be [EMAIL="ar@ed"]ar@ed[/EMAIL] to get out and vote when it matters.

As for your family friend she prob thinks your hostile now... Its another irish trait. Ask them something that makes sense and your either raising your voice or being hostile. They que the tears.

amacachi

cooker3 wrote: »

Totally disagree. I much rather someone admit they don't know the candidates and or the issues and not vote then spazz picking someone when they know nothing about them.

I was being sarcastic.

Serenity Now!

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Damn straight.

If you didn't exercise your right to vote then shut the f*** up.
You (the conveniently apathetic lazy hypocrite out there) have done nothing to influence anything on the running of the country be that at local, regional, national or European level.

DeVore

What will you do when you are faced with someones complaint and yet you dont know if they voted or not!!!???!

OMG!! YOU WONT KNOW IF ITS VALID OR NOT?? THE SKY WILL FALL!!! :rolleyes:


If I say "the health care system is screwed, Mary Harney doesnt know her arse from her elbow"... is that complaint more or less valid if I didnt vote??

Stop thinking about *me*.... start thinking about the statement as an entity itself.

DeV.