Religion in Irish politics

Galvasean

Those people who shoot up abortion clinics sound like right secularists alright.
Ditto for the troublemakers up north.

Hivemind187

Húrin wrote: »

Gangland Gun crime of the type we have got used to is typical in societies which undergo economic booms. Simply saying that it's criminals wot done it is laughably simplistic. Criminals exist in every society, but cocaine shootings don't.

The issue of gun crime that wesee in Ireland is not related to the economic sucess of the nation insofar as causation. It is the importation of firearms by gangs and criminals as a tool to protect their drug and prostitution interests.

The affluence of a society is irrelevant since many societies with huge numbers of poor and GDP's lower than a 9 year olds pocket money have horrendous criminal activity involving guns.

It is more reasonable to say that the level of gun crimes is not related to the affluance of the society but more directly to a combination of which items are considered contraband and thus generate a black market trade as well as the proximity of criminal territories for the distribution and trafficking of such products.

It is also worth noting that El Salvador, South Africa and many other areas of high violent crime are also some of the most devoutly religious.

... perhaps they are the "wrong religion"

pts

In regards to OP, didn't know this but it looks like someone is redeeming the "Higgins" name
From the Irish Times, the part that I didn't know about:

A native of Co Kerry, Mr Higgins(60), once studied for the priesthood but later became an atheist.

Don't know if it would have effected my opinion on his suitability, but a pleasant surprise nonetheless.

Otaku Girl

robindch wrote: »

Religion in general is not a "mental illness" in any reasonable sense of the term,

I can imagine a hypothetical world where religious belief is in the minority rather than the majority.In such a word it would undoubtably be classified as a mental illness. What's normal is not the same as what's true or condusive to mental health. It was normal in the third reich to believe the Jews were genetically inferior,does'nt make it true.

robindch

Otaku Girl wrote: »

I can imagine a hypothetical world where religious belief is in the minority rather than the majority.In such a word it would undoubtably be classified as a mental illness.

I don't at all see why.

Kids who believe that Santa's bringing them pressies aren't classified as mentally ill, any more than people who go to homeopaths, chiropracters, astrologers, acupuncturists and so on.

Maintaining a profoundly inaccurate mental model of how the world works certainly could imply that the brain isn't working right, but I don't know any sociologist or psychologist who believe this is the general case. On the contrary, as Wicknight implied above, most believe that the whole creaking edifice has been conjured into existence by the impartial forces of cultural evolution for no other reason than religion runs perfectly well on, or alongside, the vast majority ordinary human brains.

CerebralCortex

Otaku Girl wrote: »

I can imagine a hypothetical world where religious belief is in the minority rather than the majority.In such a word it would undoubtably be classified as a mental illness. What's normal is not the same as what's true or condusive to mental health. It was normal in the third reich to believe the Jews were genetically inferior,does'nt make it true.

Godwin's law!... I'll get my coat.

Name Party Sitting 1st Pref. Vote % Votes Elected/Excluded
HARKIN, Marian 84,813 17.1%
GALLAGHER, Pat The Cope 82,643 16.7%
HIGGINS, Jim 80,093 16.2%
GANLEY, Declan 67,638 13.7%
MacLOCHLAINN, Pádraig 45,515 9.2%
MOONEY, Paschal 42,985 8.7%
O'REILLY, Joe 37,564 7.6%
O'KEEFFE, Susan 28,708 5.8%
McNAMARA, Michael 12,744 2.6%
Ó LUAIN, Fiachra 6,510 1.3%
HIGGINS, John Francis 3,030 0.6%
McCULLAGH, Noel 1,940 0.4%
KING, Thomas 1,124 0.2%

0.6% of the vote and eliminated on the first count.

Hivemind187

Deleted User wrote: »

0.6% of the vote and eliminated on the first count.

Deadly.

I'd still like to know which of our representatives hold strong or extreme religious views. Strong defined as any system of values which demands that a particular delusion be held in higher regard than established, verifiable and testable fact and extreme to mean any supernaturally inspired system of values which deems another group to be anathema (gays, jews, blacks, atheists, catholics etc etc).

Mainly because I find the idea of superstition being responsible for our legislation.

Húrin

Hivemind187 wrote: »

The issue of gun crime that wesee in Ireland is not related to the economic sucess of the nation insofar as causation. It is the importation of firearms by gangs and criminals as a tool to protect their drug and prostitution interests.

The drug and prostitution interests have been caused by prosperity.

The affluence of a society is irrelevant since many societies with huge numbers of poor and GDP's lower than a 9 year olds pocket money have horrendous criminal activity involving guns.

Nearly all such societies have a super-rich westernised minority that fund their gang crime, such as El Salvador and South Africa.

It is more reasonable to say that the level of gun crimes is not related to the affluance of the society but more directly to a combination of which items are considered contraband and thus generate a black market trade as well as the proximity of criminal territories for the distribution and trafficking of such products.

This wasn't an issue when Ireland was poor, even though the same drugs were banned, and the country was in the same geographical position.

Húrin

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Deadly.

I'd still like to know which of our representatives hold strong or extreme religious views.

Sounds like you're seeking Reds under the bed!

Húrin

sliabh wrote: »

It isn't exactly conclusive evidence that they are theists, but I have yet to hear of any Collopy, Keane, Dundon or McCarthy getting a secular or humanist ceremony.

I love the way Irish people more often than not pretend that class isn't an issue. Self-identified "secular humanists" in my experience are all middle or upper class.

Dades

Húrin wrote: »

The drug and prostitution interests have been caused by prosperity.

That makes no sense. Drugs and prostitution are always more prevalent amongst the less well-off. People don't usually become affluent and turn to drugs or prostitution. It's the other way around.

Húrin wrote: »

This wasn't an issue when Ireland was poor, even though the same drugs were banned, and the country was in the same geographical position.

Access to guns and drugs has increased hugely since Ireland was 'poor'.

ShooterSF

Húrin wrote: »

I love the way Irish people more often than not pretend that class isn't an issue. Self-identified "secular humanists" in my experience are all middle or upper class.

Well my background would definitely be working class. I doubt I could be considered middle class now either. One suggestion might be that be that people struggling to make ends meet or are having a hard life may have more to gain psychologically by believing in a faith. Even if their beliefs is in something highly unlikely.

Húrin

Dades wrote: »

That makes no sense. Drugs and prostitution are always more prevalent amongst the less well-off. People don't usually become affluent and turn to drugs or prostitution. It's the other way around.

So when Ireland was poor there were more of drugs and prostitution, and thus more gangs going around shooting each other? Is that what you're saying?

Access to guns and drugs has increased hugely since Ireland was 'poor'.

Yes. That's my point. Gang shooting has not been caused by religion or the decline of it, but by the ascent of our economy. Some people, I see, just don't like to admit that the Celtic Tiger had any negative side-effects.

ShooterSF wrote: »

One suggestion might be that be that people struggling to make ends meet or are having a hard life may have more to gain psychologically by believing in a faith. Even if their beliefs is in something highly unlikely.

This isn't about belief, but tradition. I doubt there are many devout believers among the gang bosses. But none of them have a cultural interest in rocking the boat enough to break away from their family's traditional Catholicism. This is why they all have Catholic funerals. It's not that Catholics are more likely than atheists to be gun-toting drug dealers.

Really, this issue has very little to do with religion or lack of it, and everything to do with class and money.

Dades

Húrin wrote: »

So when Ireland was poor there were more of drugs and prostitution, and thus more gangs going around shooting each other? Is that what you're saying?

Yes. That's my point. Gang shooting has not been caused by religion or the decline of it, but by the ascent of our economy. Some people, I see, just don't like to admit that the Celtic Tiger had any negative side-effects.

You seem to be missing the key point. There aren't more shootings because people are wealthier - it's not the rich shooting each other. Drugs and weapons are much easier to come by as Ireland no longer the same "island" it was in terms of access. You can fly anywhere in Europe for a tenner on the right day, the borders have come down for EU citizens, and communications advances help to facilitate crime.

None of this is the fault of the "celtic tiger". It may be the 'cost' of human progress, but it is far outweighed by it's advantages.

Also, you can't discount both the huge increase in Ireland's population and the blanket media coverage that simply wasn't there a few decades ago.

Húrin

Dades wrote: »

You seem to be missing the key point. There aren't more shootings because people are wealthier - it's not the rich shooting each other.

So who's buying the coke? There's a reason why nobody was bothering to smuggle a lot of drugs in back in the 60s.

Drugs and weapons are much easier to come by as Ireland no longer the same "island" it was in terms of access. You can fly anywhere in Europe for a tenner on the right day, the borders have come down for EU citizens, and communications advances help to facilitate crime.

I would have to agree. Easier communications and transport certainly have exacerbated the problem. These advances have come about through increased weath.

None of this is the fault of the "celtic tiger". It may be the 'cost' of human progress, but it is far outweighed by it's advantages.

Contradiction?

CerebralCortex

What is your point Hurin? Are you saying prosperity is a bad thing? Or that wealth casues more crime?

Dades

Húrin wrote: »

Easier communications and transport certainly have exacerbated the problem. These advances have come about through increased weath.

The above indicates that you clearly have some odd agenda where you're determined to blame 'wealth' for societies ills. You're scraping for evidence to support some vague, pre-conceived conclusion.

Maybe you'd be more at home with the Amish? No wealth or any of the trappings such as electricity or modern medicine.