Evangelization (anybody)

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I'm coching a U12 girls soccer team this year and didn't know anyone on it. At the first team meeting I explained that I am a Christian and will be doig a pre-game prayer.

Out of interest, have you cleared it with all of the kids' parents that it's ok to do this?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

Out of interest, have you cleared it with all of the kids' parents that it's ok to do this?

No-one has ever objected. I have a muslim on each team, some who attend Catholic church regularly, some who are non-practicing Catholics. Some who go to evangelical churches and some who don't attend any church.

I even get thanks from referees who know that we pray for them as well.

kelly1

Yeah Brian, don't you know how dangerous prayer is!?!?! These poor innocent children might get the impression that Jesus exists!

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

Yeah Brian, don't you know how dangerous prayer is!?!?! These poor innocent children might get the impression that Jesus exists!

Amazing isn't it that robin is so hostile to words that he would claim mean nothing. I knew he would go after that.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Amazing isn't it that robin is so hostile to words that he would claim mean nothing. I knew he would go after that.

Out of curiosity, how would you deal with someone who did not want to be involved in this prayer?

philologos

robindch wrote: »

Out of interest, have you cleared it with all of the kids' parents that it's ok to do this?

If people get upset about a short prayer, thats a sign that the rest of their lives are going pretty well if they have nothing else to complain about.

dvpower

kelly1 wrote: »

Yeah Brian, don't you know how dangerous prayer is!?!?! These poor innocent children might get the impression that Jesus exists!

I wonder how many Christians would object if their pre-teen children where told by their soccer coach that Jesus didn't exist. Many I'd suspect.

This is something that should be cleared with parents, as a matter of common courtesy if nothing else.

AtomicHorror

kelly1 wrote: »

Yeah Brian, don't you know how dangerous prayer is!?!?! These poor innocent children might get the impression that Jesus exists!

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Amazing isn't it that robin is so hostile to words that he would claim mean nothing. I knew he would go after that.

Jakkass wrote: »

If people get upset about a short prayer, thats a sign that the rest of their lives are going pretty well if they have nothing else to complain about.

So you guys wouldn't mind if your kids were involved in a team in which the coach offered prayers to some other god before a match? Thor, Zeus, Vishnu, Xenu or Ba'al? You wouldn't want to be consulted on that?

What if the coach were an atheist? Is it "just words" if he mentions that God doesn't exist? I'm sorry but I think you're all taking a very hypocritical stance on this.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No-one has ever objected.

So can we assume that you've never asked any parent if it's ok for you to impose your religious views on their children?

philologos

If the prayer was carried out without specific reference to Jesus Christ, but refers to God. The equivalent isn't an atheist saying that there isn't a God. The equivalent would be an atheist having a time of reflection before a game.

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

If people get upset about a short prayer, thats a sign that the rest of their lives are going pretty well if they have nothing else to complain about.

Well, if you'd seen happen some of the things that I've seen happen in my own extended family as a direct result of religion, I reckon you'd be a trifle less sanguine about letting people impose their religious views on your kids without your knowledge.

BrianCalgary

AtomicHorror wrote: »

So you guys wouldn't mind if your kids were involved in a team in which the coach offered prayers to some other god before a match? Thor, Zeus, Vishnu, Xenu or Ba'al? You wouldn't want to be consulted on that?

What if the coach were an atheist? Is it "just words" if he mentions that God doesn't exist? I'm sorry but I think you're all taking a very hypocritical stance on this.

Wouldn't mind at all AH. As long as the parenst are informed beforehand.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

So can we assume that you've never asked any parent if it's ok for you to impose your religious views on their children?

How am I imposing Christianity on them??????

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

How am I imposing Christianity on them??????

I'd have thought it was obvious -- you're asking them to do pre-game prayers, or be present during them (or, possibly, to excuse themselves from a team activity while it's going on; which I assume does not happen).

Are you saying that your prayers aren't christian?

dvpower

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Wouldn't mind at all AH. As long as the parenst are informed beforehand.

Is this a joke thread? Has this been moved from after hours?

AtomicHorror

Jakkass wrote: »

If the prayer was carried out without specific reference to Jesus Christ, but refers to God.

But what about some other God? Will that be okay with you?

Jakkass wrote: »

The equivalent isn't an atheist saying that there isn't a God. The equivalent would be an atheist having a time of reflection before a game.

Not calling that an equivalent, just pointing out the silliness of smirking at Robin's objection to mere words.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Wouldn't mind at all AH. As long as the parenst are informed beforehand.

Ah, then they have been informed in this case?

BrianCalgary

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Ah, then they have been informed in this case?

Yes they have.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

I'd have thought it was obvious -- you're asking them to do pre-game prayers, or be present during them (or, possibly, to excuse themselves from a team activity while it's going on; which I assume does not happen).

Are you saying that your prayers aren't christian?

I asked because it is not obvious.

I do not ask them to do a prayer. I pray for them, the opponents and the referees.

So where is the imposition??

philologos

AtomicHorror wrote: »

But what about some other God? Will that be okay with you?

God is a religion generic term.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Not calling that an equivalent, just pointing out the silliness of smirking at Robin's objection to mere words.

It isn't silly. It's infact ridiculous that people are given the pedestal to nitpick about someone saying a small prayer before a soccer game. If they don't like it, play for a different team.

AtomicHorror

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Yes they have.

Well jeeze, you could have said that when Robin asked exactly the same question right at the start of this thread.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote: »

It isn't silly. It's infact ridiculous that people are given the pedestal to nitpick about someone saying a small prayer before a soccer game. If they don't like it, play for a different team.

I suspect the assumption being made by some is that this team is just some local non-religiously affiliated team. Being as such, there is some confusion as to why prayers are being said. Which I would think is fair enough if its supposed to be an all-inclusive community initiatiated team. If its church affliated though, then indeed, if there is a problem, join a different team.

BrianCalgary

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Well jeeze, you could have said that when Robin asked exactly the same question right at the start of this thread.

In the initial post that robin brought over from the other thread I state that I tell the parents that I am going to do it.

That's OK though. Feel free to ask.

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

I suspect the assumption being made by some is that this team is just some local non-religiously affiliated team. Being as such, there is some confusion as to why prayers are being said. Which I would think is fair enough if its supposed to be an all-inclusive community initiatiated team. If its church affliated though, then indeed, if there is a problem, join a different team.

Not at all affiliated with any church.
It is a club side. www.nsdsoccer.com

Anyone can sign up with the club. I find it interesting though that kids and parents desire to be on my teams because of how I coach and the positive atmosphere on the team. I credit that positive atmosphere to teh act that Jesus is a prt of wnd welcome on our team.

AtomicHorror

Jakkass wrote: »

God is a religion generic term.

Not for a Muslim and not in this case either. Brian has made it clear that the God to which he refers is the Christian God.

Jakkass wrote: »

It isn't silly. It's infact ridiculous that people are given the pedestal to nitpick about someone saying a small prayer before a soccer game. If they don't like it, play for a different team.

Well Robin was concerned over permission, not the prayer itself (a point which has now been clarified) and it was implied by Kelly that this concern was trivial. The reason given was that these prayers were mere words that he ought not to believe in anyway. By the same logic you should have no objection to me, in some capacity as a teacher or trainer, telling your kids that God does not exist. Those are mere words you hold no stock in, but I imagine you would rather I not impose them on your kids. It's a moot point, since the actual issue was permission, but still a point worth refuting.

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how would you deal with someone who did not want to be involved in this prayer?

Involvement in what sense?

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Involvement in what sense?

Well lets just say, my coach is a muslim, and he wanted us all to face mecca and pray to Allah. I would not like to do it, and would not participate. So how would that work, if lets say, a muslim did not want to partake in your prayers?

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Not at all affiliated with any church.
It is a club side. www.nsdsoccer.com

Anyone can sign up with the club. I find it interesting though that kids and parents desire to be on my teams because of how I coach and the positive atmosphere on the team. I credit that positive atmosphere to teh act that Jesus is a prt of wnd welcome on our team.

Well its good to see that there are no over reactions anyway. The only thing I'd be thinking about is this. If it is not supposed to be religiously affiliated, would it not isolate folk who do not wish to be involved in this ritual prayer?

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

Well lets just say, my coach is a muslim, and he wanted us all to face mecca and pray to Allah. I would not like to do it, and would not participate. So how would that work, if lets say, a muslim did not want to partake in your prayers?

A muslim coach requiring the kids to face Mecca and to pray to Allah would be asking the kids ro indeed anyone to do something that they neccessarily don't agree with.

At our pre-game ritual I am the only one who prays. All the players put their hands in and respectfully bow their heads as I speak the words. Many of the girls say'amen'. Some of the boys do. On the High School team I coach one of the girls blesses herself after.

I have a Muslim on each of my minor teams I coach and a muslim assisitant coach, no objections from the families whatsoever.

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

Well its good to see that there are no over reactions anyway. The only thing I'd be thinking about is this. If it is not supposed to be religiously affiliated, would it not isolate folk who do not wish to be involved in this ritual prayer?

Probably as isolationist as a Christian kid on a team where a coach uses foul language all the time.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In the initial post that robin brought over from the other thread I state that I tell the parents that I am going to do it.

Er, no you didn't. You said "At the first team meeting I explained that I am a Christian and will be doig a pre-game prayer". Nothing about parents

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I do not ask them to do a prayer. I pray for them, the opponents and the referees. So where is the imposition??

You're the coach to a non-religious soccer team. If you're saying prayers to yourself in the privacy of your own mind, then that's fine, pray away. If you're asking everybody to stop what they're doing so that you can have the time to air your religious views -- and bearing in mind that few if any parents are going to be brave enough to ask the coach in public for their kids to be excused from one section of a team event (has it ever happened?) -- then that's imposition. Not a particularly awful imposition, but an imposition all the same.

AtomicHorror

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In the initial post that robin brought over from the other thread I state that I tell the parents that I am going to do it.

Well, you say you state that you're Christian and that you do prayers before games but it wasn't clear to me who you made that statement to.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

You're the coach to a non-religious soccer team. If you're saying prayers to yourself in the privacy of your own mind, then that's fine, pray away. If you're asking everybody to stop what they're doing so that you can have the time to air your religious views -- and bearing in mind that few if any parents are going to be brave enough to ask the coach in public for their kids to be excused from one section of a team event (has it ever happened?) -- then that's imposition. Not a particularly awful imposition, but an imposition all the same.

That's not an imposition at all. I am the coach, so I am not asking anyone to 'stop what they are doing'. I am not 'airing' my religious views. I ask for an injury free game, for top notch officiating and that the kids can play their best and enjoy themselves, in Jesus' name. Amen.

Nope, no parent has ever objected and the invitation is open to all of them to talk to me about it. In fact I have never had anyone say as much as boo, I have however had many parents tell me how much they like it.

BrianCalgary

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Well, you say you state that you're Christian and that you do prayers before games but it wasn't clear to me who you made that statement to.

Fair enough. I trust it's clear now.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I ask for an injury free game, for top notch officiating and that the kids can play their best and enjoy themselves, in Jesus' name. Amen.

Thoroughly commendable -- I'd just add Mohammad and Dawkin's name in there (and any other deities or non-deities as required). Should cover most people.

Inclusivity and team-spirit is what it's all about, eh?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

Thoroughly commendable -- I'd just add Mohammad and Dawkin's name in there (and any other deities or non-deities as required). Should cover most people.

Inclusivity and team-spirit is what it's all about, eh?

And everyone is included, every kid; and we have great team spirit.

I dont think Dawkins would hear it, so that wouldn't serve any purpose.

philologos

Are you implying that atheists deify Dawkins robindch?

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

Are you implying that atheists deify Dawkins robindch?

Nope, I'm implying that plenty of religious people think we do.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I dont think Dawkins would hear it, so that wouldn't serve any purpose

Well, Jesus probably doesn't hear the prayer either, so you should drop his name too -- the simplest solutions are often the best

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

Nope, I'm implying that plenty of religious people think we do.Well, Jesus probably doesn't hear the prayer either, so you should drop his name too -- the simplest solutions are often the best

But, I know that Jesus is hearing all prayers from all His people.

The wisest solutions are the best.

philologos

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Well Robin was concerned over permission, not the prayer itself (a point which has now been clarified) and it was implied by Kelly that this concern was trivial. The reason given was that these prayers were mere words that he ought not to believe in anyway. By the same logic you should have no objection to me, in some capacity as a teacher or trainer, telling your kids that God does not exist. Those are mere words you hold no stock in, but I imagine you would rather I not impose them on your kids. It's a moot point, since the actual issue was permission, but still a point worth refuting.

It is trivial. Extremely trivial. People should learn to recognise that they are going to encounter people of faith at some point, and if a prayer is said before a game, atheists and agnostics should use the time for quiet reflection or something else. It's not a big deal. Causing a fuss is just ridiculous. Even if I were a non-believer I don't think that would rile me up incredibly.

Brian isn't telling anyone that God exists. The notion is that he is praying, other people can hope for a good game if they aren't willing to take part in the prayer. These type of "battles of secularisation" are just a joke to me. It's a small prayer before a football game get over it. The equivalent wouldn't be telling people that God doesn't exist, infact Brian isn't proselytising. The equivalent would be an atheist telling children to take a minute to hope for a good game.

toiletduck

Jakkass wrote: »

These type of "battles of secularisation" are just a joke to me. It's a small prayer before a football game get over it. The equivalent wouldn't be telling people that God doesn't exist, infact Brian isn't proselytising. The equivalent would be an atheist telling children to take a minute to hope for a good game.

And don't forget making a point of declaring himself an atheist at the start. Seems pretty odd.

The only religious experience I had for underage gaelic. We'd usually have our matches on Sunday mornings, our coach would say "stick at the back of Mass lads and leave after the gospel to be in time. That should be enough to show god we deserve to win"

studiorat

I'd like to know why there are prayers before a football match
in the first place?

Why do a bunch of kids playing soccer need time for reflection and contemplation beforehand in the first place?

philologos

Some would argue for a number of reasons. Kind of like the way some teams would have a pep-talk at the start, for motivation.

BrianCalgary

studiorat wrote: »

I'd like to know why there are prayers before a football match
in the first place?

Why do a bunch of kids playing soccer need time for reflection and contemplation beforehand in the first place?

To get them focussed and relaxed. It works well.

studiorat

BrianCalgary wrote: »

To get them focussed and relaxed. It works well.

Have you tried with just a pep talk and without mentioning god? Is there any difference?

TheInquisitor

Jakkass wrote: »

If the prayer was carried out without specific reference to Jesus Christ, but refers to God. The equivalent isn't an atheist saying that there isn't a God. The equivalent would be an atheist having a time of reflection before a game.

No the equivalent for me would be asking the flying spagetti monster for help

BrianCalgary

studiorat wrote: »

Have you tried with just a pep talk and without mentioning god? Is there any difference?

Do both. Prayer - to relax them and get them focused on the game, then the reminder of the task ahead and the encouragement, team cheer and awaaaay we go.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

At our pre-game ritual I am the only one who prays. All the players put their hands in and respectfully bow their heads as I speak the words.

Er, back up a minute.

That is asking your children to participate in your prayer ritual. I see no difference between that and a Muslim coach asking his players to all turn and face Mecca while he chants something from the Qur'an.

What would you do if someone didn't wish to "put their hands in and respectfully bow their heads"

I think it is interesting that you use the word "respectfully". Does that imply that if a person didn't participate they would be being disrespectful?

Do none of you get why these types of things are frowned upon (apart from the grand atheist conspiracy)

If a child wishes to not participate in your Christian prayer, which is as reasonable as you not wanting to have your kids facing Mecca as a Muslim coach says a Islamic prayer, it is necessary for them to exclude themselves from this pre-game ritual.

Excluding themselves singles them out. The first question of everyone's lips (judging by discussions here) would be why does he not want to participate. Is that bad? What is wrong with him? Is he not Christian? Does he not like Christianity? Etc etc

As someone who has gone through the fun childhood experience of having an entire room full of my peers laugh and snigger at me because I (foolishly) put my hand up when the RE teacher asked did anyone not wish to participate in some Evangelical Americans leading us all in a big group prayer (I'm not Christian and at the time I actually thought it would be disrespectful to Christianity to participate), I speak from experience here. Walking out side to stand in the corridor to the whispers of "freak" is a wonderful thing I hope all children get experience. I doubt many of the children cared that I was not Christian, it was merely that I had singled myself out for ridicule.

People can say tough the kid should get over it, but I fail to see why your need to pray with your children comes above this.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

But, I know that Jesus is hearing all prayers from all His people.

Well, I know that Jesus is as dead as a doornail and praying to him won't do anything

Why not compromise -- ask for all of that good stuff, but in Mohammad's name too? You do have a muslim in the group, so it would be admirably inclusive of you to respect the beliefs of her parents just as much as you respect yours.

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

It is trivial. Extremely trivial. [...] Brian isn't telling anyone that God exists. The notion is that he is praying, other people can hope for a good game if they aren't willing to take part in the prayer. These type of "battles of secularisation" are just a joke to me.

This might all be a joke to you, but it's certainly not a joke to those of us who have some appreciation of the divisive side of religion, and what religion can impel people and groups of people to do in its name.

If you understood our point of view with respect to religion a bit better, I think you'd find our concerns about it a trifle less amusing.

philologos

Wicknight: I don't get why people frown upon a simple prayer no. I don't. I don't know why people make mountains out of molehills. It is inevitable that you will meet Christians who will pray at some point in your life. Even if the kids don't believe they can take their minute out and think about how they are going to play or something else. So, no I don't get why people get so hot and bothered over nothing

robindch: There is a difference between understanding, and expecting people to automatically pander to it.

robindch

Wicknight wrote: »

As someone who has gone through the fun childhood experience of having an entire room full of my peers laugh and snigger at me because I (foolishly) put my hand up when the RE teacher asked did anyone not wish to participate in some Evangelical Americans leading us all in a big group prayer

I'm in a similar boat at the moment myself -- my kid's going to Montessori school in September and on the tour around the otherwise admirable (and very close-by) school a few weeks back, the headmistress finished up a q+a session by saying that she made sure that the kids said their prayers every day. Catholic "ethos" and all that.

Now, obviously, I don't want my kid exposed to this stuff, but what do I do? If I ask for her to be excused while it's going on, she'll be treated as an outsider immediately -- as Wicknight points out, a non-standard "freak". And frankly, as a parent, I'm concerned.

I'm also cheesed off not only that we only found out about this accidentally (the schoolmistress having assumed that we'd like it to happen), but more specifically, that at the age of two and a bit, religious people already feel it their duty to recruit her without my knowledge or permission. The arrogance is really quite startling.