Should Batt O'Keefe fire the invigilator?

JonathanAnon

Gonna throw this one out for the laugh?

Since it is currently the common perception that it is harder to win the Lotto than it is to get fired from the Public Service, I was just wondering will the Dept. Of Education make an example of this guy with a view to demonstrating to the taxpayer that their employees ARE accountable for their actions. Should he be fired?

(Cant see why the invigilators weren't forced to make provision to find printing facilities for tomorrow, then upload the paper to a password protected website (which could be issued at 8.30am tomorrow), and then printed out. Sure there might be a delay in some places, but it's just a photocopy after all.)

Dumb

Anyone can hack into a website or email no matter how protected it is.


He should not be fired. The poor man

Orion

No he shouldn't. If you fired everyone who made a mistake nobody would have a job. Everyone makes a serious mistake at one time or another - $hit happens.

O'Keefe should seriously question the SEC though. Why weren't the alternative papers under lock and key in local police stations so that the exam could go ahead as scheduled? That's the way it used to be done.

Dumb

All those leaving certs whinging and moaning on Joe Duffy. Would they ever fuc.k up. Jaysus

godtabh

Fire him from invigilator duties only

eigrod

Macros42 wrote: »

No he shouldn't. If you fired everyone who made a mistake nobody would have a job. Everyone makes a serious mistake at one time or another - $hit happens.

Agreed. Apart from that, it would be illegal under the Unfair Dismissals Act.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think he should.

Not for giving out the wrong paper, for the fact that he didn't report it to the department.

Department of education heard about it from a parent of a student in another school.

If the invigilator reported it immediately they could have had a new paper out in time for today.

The saturday exam is massively fuc*ing over people doing history early next week.

so yeah, fire him for not following procedure

JonathanAnon

Dumb wrote: »

Anyone can hack into a website or email no matter how protected it is.

Not true they could set up encrypted email between the sites if they were going that way, or a website using HTTPS using my suggestion. If you're point was true nobody would use e-commerce.

Sully

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Not true they could set up encrypted email between the sites if they were going that way, or a website using HTTPS using my suggestion. If you're point was true nobody would use e-commerce.

You can still break encryption. Technically.

eCommerce sites are broken into. There is no "fully secure" website really.

Dumb

Sully wrote: »

You can still break encryption. Technically.

eCommerce sites are broken into. There is no "fully secure" website really.

Exactly

Timmyctc

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think he should.

Not for giving out the wrong paper, for the fact that he didn't report it to the department.

Department of education heard about it from a parent of a student in another school.

If the invigilator reported it immediately they could have had a new paper out in time for today.

The saturday exam is massively fuc*ing over people doing history early next week.

so yeah, fire him for not following procedure

Too right man you think it would've been the very first thing you'd do after such a **** up but that's screwed me over for history

JonathanAnon

Sully wrote: »

You can still break encryption. Technically.
eCommerce sites are broken into. There is no "fully secure" website really.

You can be pendantic about it if you want. I'm sure the two of you use online banking and have bought stuff over the net.

Of course encryption can be broken, but there are measures that are put in place in proper systems that make it VERY difficult to do so. If would be far easier to try to rob, copy and reseal one of the containers of papers in the existing setup than to break the encryption key and get access to the paper (which like I said would only be uploaded the morning of the exam). I think that ye are all missing the point that no system is fully secure, whether distributed over computers or not. It's all a matter of balancing risk.

Dumb

JonathanAnon wrote: »

You can be pendantic about it if you want. I'm sure the two of you use online banking and have bought stuff over the net.

Of course encryption can be broken, but there are measures that are put in place in proper systems that make it VERY difficult to do so. If would be far easier to try to rob, copy and reseal one of the containers of papers in the existing setup than to break the encryption key and get access to the paper (which like I said would only be uploaded the morning of the exam). I think that ye are all missing the point that no system is fully secure, whether distributed over computers or not. It's all a matter of balancing risk.

I would never use online banking. If I was doing the LC and I had the opportunity to hack into that e-mail or that website I would do so.

On a seperate note is there a PDF file anywhere on the net of the paper?

irishgrover

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think he should.

Not for giving out the wrong paper, for the fact that he didn't report it to the department.

Department of education heard about it from a parent of a student in another school.

If the invigilator reported it immediately they could have had a new paper out in time for today.

IF this is not gross misconduct (not the act itself, but the non reporting of it)I'm not sure what it? So should (s)he be fired? IMHO yes, would this be a sackable offense in the private sector, of course, however we are probably talking about firing teacher here or some other similar civil servant.

As far as I know the only way a teacher can actually get fired in Ireland is if he or she actually physically has sex with, or actually kills someone during a disciplinary board meeting (okay, technically that last bit may not be 100% accurate...)

Dumb

I also think the whole story is being blown out of proportion. It could be a lot worse. How?, I hear you say. Back in the day of priests sticking rulers and ping-pong balls up your hole. That was terrible. Nothing in comparrison.

Also I think there might be something else behind this. The supervisor may have been a Fine Gael, Labour or Sinn Fein supporter or some man who does not like the current government. He then subsequently went about opening the Paper 2 and Fuc.king up the whole thing.

Joan Burton (Labour) was on Vincent Browne and she began to blame the government only for Vincent to intervene. It was not the government's fault. It was that man. Simple as that.

Also why are these eejits on Joe Duffy, this website, bebo, facebook, twitter etc. Would they go and study for Christ's sake.

glanman

thats one of the best conspiracy storied ive ever seen!

lala stone

eigrod wrote: »

Agreed. Apart from that, it would be illegal under the Unfair Dismissals Act.

How so??!
thks

Dumb

lala stone wrote: »

How so??!
thks

Because, believe it or not, he made a simple mistake.

Timmyctc

Dumb wrote: »

I also think the whole story is being blown out of proportion. It could be a lot worse. How?, I hear you say. Back in the day of priests sticking rulers and ping-pong balls up your hole. That was terrible. Nothing in comparrison.

Also I think there might be something else behind this. The supervisor may have been a Fine Gael, Labour or Sinn Fein supporter or some man who does not like the current government. He then subsequently went about opening the Paper 2 and Fuc.king up the whole thing.

Joan Burton (Labour) was on Vincent Browne and she began to blame the government only for Vincent to intervene. It was not the government's fault. It was that man. Simple as that.

Also why are these eejits on Joe Duffy, this website, bebo, facebook, twitter etc. Would they go and study for Christ's sake.

Listen man its still fairly the biggest L.C fiasco that anyone can remember it completely throws everyone in the country off course as some people think they should study different topics now in case the material changes other people focusing on the topics which came up because they think they are sure to come up again so overall I think its fair to say its worth complaining about.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dumb wrote: »

Because, believe it or not, he made a simple mistake.

No, he didn't. If he reported it before 10am it would have been a simple mistake. That didn't happen and his subsequent covering up of his mistake meant was not in any way a "simple" mistake

Dumb

Timmyctc wrote: »

Listen man its still fairly the biggest L.C fiasco that anyone can remember it completely throws everyone in the country off course as some people think they should study different topics now in case the material changes other people focusing on the topics which came up because they think they are sure to come up again so overall I think its fair to say its worth complaining about.

Yes but worse things can and no doubt will happen in the lives of the children of this day.

Dumb

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, he didn't. If he reported it before 10am it would have been a simple mistake. That didn't happen and his subsequent covering up of his mistake meant was not in any way a "simple" mistake

It would make no difference whatsoever if he reported it. :rolleyes:

It would still be cancelled. Simple as that for a simple mistake. :cool:

Dumb

Thank God Mr. Joe Duffy is over. All those whining little children may go about actually preparing instead of moaning, screaming, groaning and horning on about the Paper.

Timmyctc

Dumb wrote: »

Yes but worse things can and no doubt will happen in the lives of the children of this day.

That's true and when their time comes to complain, let them, but now is our time and i'd like to say, lets go down to drogheda and do some serious ass forking....

Dumb

You'll get there by about 7 tonight so...

damoz

JonathanAnon wrote: »

You can be pendantic about it if you want. .

Not to be pedantic, but.........

PCPhoto

Dumb wrote: »

Because, believe it or not, he made a simple mistake.

the whole point is that YES people do make mistakes..... do I personally think the guy should loose his job over this mistake .... maybe not...but he should certainly be suspended (WITHOUT PAY) for a period of weeks as punishment.

I dont want this to turn into a civil/public service rant but if he's made accountable for his (non) actions then a message is sent to others that there are punishments for making mistakes (and people will be more conscious of making the wrong decision in future)

Personally I think politicians should be made accountable for their actions - ie. wasting 50Million on taxpayers money on E-Voting and still keeping your job is crazy, and IMO if someone chooses to go into a career in politics then why are they allowed pension/benefits of previous job - you either make a career change or you dont - and if you dont get elected, you fail as a politician so try another career.

Timmyctc

Dumb wrote: »

You'll get there by about 7 tonight so...

Indeed.

Nodin

Dumb wrote: »

Yes but worse things can and no doubt will happen in the lives of the children of this day.

Not if you're one of the ones counting on getting high points and can afford neither fuck up or distraction, no....I'm not one for a lynch mob, but by failing to report it, he made a major, major error. Thats what he's/she's going to get slapped for, not handing out the wrong paper as such.

Timmyctc

PCPhoto wrote: »

the whole point is that YES people do make mistakes..... do I personally think the guy should loose his job over this mistake .... maybe not...but he should certainly be suspended (WITHOUT PAY) for a period of weeks as punishment.

I dont want this to turn into a civil/public service rant but if he's made accountable for his (non) actions then a message is sent to others that there are punishments for making mistakes (and people will be more conscious of making the wrong decision in future)

Personally I think politicians should be made accountable for their actions - ie. wasting 50Million on taxpayers money on E-Voting and still keeping your job is crazy, and IMO if someone chooses to go into a career in politics then why are they allowed pension/benefits of previous job - you either make a career change or you dont - and if you dont get elected, you fail as a politician so try another career.

You're right man, they get paid surreal amounts of money for what... Sitting in a room of quiet students ...occasionally they have to stand to open the door so the tea and biscuits and arrive, gan pá!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dumb wrote: »

It would make no difference whatsoever if he reported it. :rolleyes:

It would still be cancelled. Simple as that for a simple mistake. :cool:

Of course it would. If he'd reported it by 10am they could have had the contingency paper ready for today.

Dumb

He will not get slapped. I wish him well. I hope he has a good life.

"Not if you're one of the ones counting on getting high points and can afford neither **** up or distraction"

Worse things can happen. I think that some of these kids are so stuck up there own nostril to see it. Worse things will happen. As smart as they think they are they are some sad people if they can't see that.

seamus

Yes, the bigger screw up was not reporting it earlier, but obviously he forgot about the whole "interconnected world" thing and assumed it wouldn't be that big a deal. Not everyone's a secret agent and the vast majority of people have very little tech savvy, so I wouldn't hang him on that.

This was a very minor thing. Nobody's lives are going to be affected in any important way over this. So a few kids have to sit an exam two days later than scheduled. Big deal. If you know the material, you'll get the same grade whether you sat it today or you sit it on Saturday.

To lose your job over such a thing is ridiculous. In fact, there was a system in place to account for the fact that people make such mistakes. Now they need to rethink the wisdom of getting students to verify that the right paper is being opened, because clearly the students don't even look at what they're signing.

This has all been blown out of proportion. You can't store the auxiliary/emergency papers in the school because that negates the entire point of having an emergency paper in the first place. Exactly why you don't store computer backups in the same place as the computer. There's no point in printing out thousands of emergency papers "just in case", because people would be whinging about wasting money and harming the environment when we've seen that in practice these problems only occur once every 40 years.
It happens, so you print out 60,000 emergency papers, put off the exam for two days, and Bob's your mother's brother and nobody's life is changed and nobody has died.

They're really grasping for hysteria when they're in a political blackout, aren't they?

gnxx

1. It was not a simple mistake. He was given a simple but strict process to follow. He screwed it up.

2. He then set about covering up his mistake.

When people are given special duties, they should ensure they do not make simple mistakes.

We depend on people in other sections of life to perform without making stupid mistakes.

Just imagine an aircraft engineer forgot to tighten some screws and the wings fell of a plane. Simple mistake also.

Do we really want somebody who can not hand out the correct exam paper having any role in teaching?

Anyhow, I would fire his ass on the grounds of the cover-up. It is a pity that he couldn't be fired for gross stupidity.

Sully

JonathanAnon wrote: »

You can be pendantic about it if you want. I'm sure the two of you use online banking and have bought stuff over the net.

Yup, I take a risk. Most wont bother attempting to listen to my connection or hack the website. But eCommerce sites have been hacked in the past, as I am sure banks have been. I know of websites for online shopping where details have been robbed. I could go on forever with plenty of examples, but its not what this topic is about.

Of course encryption can be broken, but there are measures that are put in place in proper systems that make it VERY difficult to do so. If would be far easier to try to rob, copy and reseal one of the containers of papers in the existing setup than to break the encryption key and get access to the paper (which like I said would only be uploaded the morning of the exam). I think that ye are all missing the point that no system is fully secure, whether distributed over computers or not. It's all a matter of balancing risk.

What type of measures? :P

Replacing this system, where they are stored in cop station, is fine. The odds of someone breaking into the cop station, breaking open the box and robbing the papers is incredibly slim. Having the paper as a PDF on the internet uploaded on the morning of the exam - well, imagine trying to get every exam center to print X copies of that without something going wrong!

The chap made a mistake and handed out the wrong papers. There was very little of the paper spotted before it was taken back. He should have reported it, but he didnt. He has been suspended while an investigation continues. There was probably no need to replace the paper but I guess they went with "better safe then sorry" for fears that one student got that glimpse more then the one beside him.

It was a mistake. It was a stupid mistake. Its only the second mistake in a VERY long time.

Dumb

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Of course it would. If he'd reported it by 10am they could have had the contingency paper ready for today.

I don't think so. Batt O'Keeffe being at Dublin Castle for the day. He was unaware of such a mistake and without his consultation nothing in relation to rescheduling exams could ever take place.

Brian Cowen cannot act without the permission of his minister. Mary McAleese has no say. The mayor of Dublin is unapproachable in such circumstances.

humanji

Timmyctc wrote: »

Listen man its still fairly the biggest L.C fiasco that anyone can remember it completely throws everyone in the country off course as some people think they should study different topics now in case the material changes other people focusing on the topics which came up because they think they are sure to come up again so overall I think its fair to say its worth complaining about.

In my day we studied the full course, so we'd be prepared for this sort of thing.

Riskymove

Dumb wrote: »

Batt O'Keeffe being at Dublin Castle for the day.

what, was he locked away in isolation or something

"Minister, can you step outside for a minute, there's a bit of a problem"

sorted

Sully

humanji wrote: »

In my day we studied the full course, so we'd be prepared for this sort of thing.

In my day, you would get the size 11.... etc.

lala stone

Dumb wrote: »

Because, believe it or not, he made a simple mistake.

Yes.. but I meant under what Section? How is this interpreted..

Timmyctc

Dumb wrote: »

He will not get slapped. I wish him well. I hope he has a good life.

"Not if you're one of the ones counting on getting high points and can afford neither **** up or distraction"

Worse things can happen. I think that some of these kids are so stuck up there own nostril to see it. Worse things will happen. As smart as they think they are they are some sad people if they can't see that.

Worse things can happen ie a bomb hitting a school or handing out maths paper 1 as opposed to english paper 2 but the fact remains that this is the worse thing that has happened to date so every L.C student has the right to complain, by all means when a school gets blown up tell us to shut our mouths but until something worse happens .... kindly shove it up ur houl

PCPhoto

seamus wrote: »

Yes, the bigger screw up was not reporting it earlier, but obviously he forgot about the whole "interconnected world" thing and assumed it wouldn't be that big a deal. Not everyone's a secret agent and the vast majority of people have very little tech savvy, so I wouldn't hang him on that.

This was a very minor thing. Nobody's lives are going to be affected in any important way over this. So a few kids have to sit an exam two days later than scheduled. Big deal. If you know the material, you'll get the same grade whether you sat it today or you sit it on Saturday.

To lose your job over such a thing is ridiculous. In fact, there was a system in place to account for the fact that people make such mistakes. Now they need to rethink the wisdom of getting students to verify that the right paper is being opened, because clearly the students don't even look at what they're signing.

This has all been blown out of proportion. You can't store the auxiliary/emergency papers in the school because that negates the entire point of having an emergency paper in the first place. Exactly why you don't store computer backups in the same place as the computer. There's no point in printing out thousands of emergency papers "just in case", because people would be whinging about wasting money and harming the environment when we've seen that in practice these problems only occur once every 40 years.
It happens, so you print out 60,000 emergency papers, put off the exam for two days, and Bob's your mother's brother and nobody's life is changed and nobody has died.

They're really grasping for hysteria when they're in a political blackout, aren't they?

agreed seamus.... but it also means that anyone who narrowly fails to get their required points could (in theory) blame the hysteria and appeal results on that basis - it has affected some of these leaving certs - but the vast majority didnt even know it happened until it was blasted all over the papers/radios

Dumb

"what, was he locked away in isolation or something

"Minister, can you step outside for a minute, there's a bit of a problem"

sorted "

No. A meeting. Regarding teacher payment. This is irrelevant though. He was unable to leave. This is relevant.

Timmyctc

because once u enter a meeting in dublin castle


THERE IS NO LEAVING!!!

Dumb

Timmyctc wrote: »

Worse things can happen ie a bomb hitting a school or handing out maths paper 1 as opposed to english paper 2 but the fact remains that this is the worse thing that has happened to date so every L.C student has the right to complain, by all means when a school gets blown up tell us to shut our mouths but until something worse happens .... kindly shove it up ur houl

I know worse things have happened to me. And some students will know that as well. Others, though, are just covered in cotton wool, given hand shandy's everyday and are unaware of what the world has in store for them.

Riskymove

Dumb wrote: »

"what, was he locked away in isolation or something

"Minister, can you step outside for a minute, there's a bit of a problem"

sorted "

No. A meeting. Regarding teacher payment. This is irrelevant though. He was unable to leave. This is relevant.

lol, of course he could step outside for a time or be given a note telling him what had happened..and that is relevant

nesf

Timmyctc wrote: »

kindly shove it up ur houl

Don't abuse people on here please.

Dumb

Timmyctc wrote: »

because once u enter a meeting in dublin castle


THERE IS NO LEAVING!!!

Unless it is an emergency. Mr. O'Keeffe decided to continue his meeting until 3.30pm and act at a later time.

Sully

Is there no foundation English? I thought there was.. if so, why is poor all Batt ignoring them?

He added: 'I want to apologise to all Leaving Cert students, both those doing Higher and Ordinary papers.'

Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0604/exams.html

Even those in Leaving Cert Applied... Or is that still Foundation English?

Dumb

He couldn't. Or more to the point he decided not to. I'm not too sure which it was but either way he acted in the best possible manner which he thought he could.

Timmyctc

Sully wrote: »

Is there no foundation English? I thought there was.. if so, why is poor all Batt ignoring them?



Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0604/exams.html

Even those in Leaving Cert Applied... Or is that still Foundation English?

sure they wouldn't understand anyways ...