league racing -leading somebody out the back

GlennaMaddy

Does anybody think it's acceptable to lead somebody out the back in a handicapped league race if they are not contributing? Was racing last night and found it annoying that those who were hanging on (sitting-in) at the back contested the sprint at the end.

I know sitting-in is acceptable in open-races, but if you are in a handicap race the objective is to stay clear of the groups behind and pass those in front by contributing to the pace.

In case your not familiar with the phrase 'leading out the back', it means deliberatly letting a gap go when there are hangers-on behind you and then sprinting back up to the group in the hope that the hangers on won't be able to get back on.

RobFowl

Perfectly acceptable. Saw a few appear in the last 2 miles last night who I hadn't seen all through the race. You were riding well BTW very strong, did you get up in the sprint?

Chips Lovell

Fair enough I'd say. If you and others end up doing all the work only to have some hanger on win, then you're the bigger fool.

Junior

It depends.

1 - Was it their first time in the group ?
2 - Were they moved up/down into your group ?

I know it's not nice to have klingons, but case in point last night the group I was certainly unable to ride thru, and if I could I would have had a go at the sprint - however I have no fear I would have been hammered in the sprint but It would have been nice to give it a go.

A quiet word to culprits after the league race to explain the etiquette would have helped ?

GlennaMaddy

RobFowl wrote: »

You were riding well BTW very strong, did you get up in the sprint?

I didnt contest it as I thought I didn't have the legs, but in hindsight I might have managed a low placing had I tried -next week!

GlennaMaddy

Junior wrote: »

It depends.

1 - Was it their first time in the group ?
2 - Were they moved up/down into your group ?

I know it's not nice to have klingons, but case in point last night the group I was certainly unable to ride thru, and if I could I would have had a go at the sprint - however I have no fear I would have been hammered in the sprint but It would have been nice to give it a go.

A quiet word to culprits after the league race to explain the etiquette would have helped ?

Some were consistent hangers-on, but some simply didn't have the legs at the time -these I don't mind.

The annoying part is that by the time you realise somebody's not going to come through you have to close the gap that emerged while you were waiting.

Think I'll be leading out the back in future

Junior

GlennaMaddy wrote: »

Some were consistent hangers-on, but some simply didn't have the legs at the time -these I don't mind.

The annoying part is that by the time you realise somebody's not going to come through you have to close the gap that emerged while you were waiting.

Think I'll be leading out the back in future

It's easier to open up the pace a bit more, it wastes time leading people out the back, try the burn them off tactic first.

Chips Lovell

Junior wrote: »

It's easier to open up the pace a bit more, it wastes time leading people out the back, try the burn them off tactic first.

To my relatively uneducated eye, I think this might be the better option.

Why not try to force a selection during the last lap, i.e. someone attacks and then the strongest riders bridge across to them?

RobFowl

Junior wrote: »

It's easier to open up the pace a bit more, it wastes time leading people out the back, try the burn them off tactic first.

I think what you're describing there is called "leading out the sprint " :rolleyes:

Raam

The problem with folk not working is that you have less of a chance staying away from the group behind and also less of a chance of catching those in front. We were stuck on a 3 minute gap behind group 2 for about 3 laps. We just weren't catching them, meanwhile, scratch were making gains on us.

Chips Lovell

RobFowl wrote: »

I think what you're describing there is called "leading out the sprint " :rolleyes:

If you leave it late enough, it is.

Raam wrote: »

The problem with folk not working is that you have less of a chance staying away from the group behind and also less of a chance of catching those in front. We were stuck on a 3 minute gap behind group 2 for about 3 laps. We just weren't catching them, meanwhile, scratch were making gains on us.

Are you telling them that though? I think there's a constinuency of people out there who go into a race with no thought to tactics more than just "I'll hang in there as long as I can".

Junior

RobFowl wrote: »

I think what you're describing there is called "leading out the sprint " :rolleyes:

No not really, if your 10km into say a 40km race you should know by then that there's a few lads sitting on, you should try make a selection by either upping the pace, or attacking a climb and shedding them. I'm not talking about doing it at the end of the race.

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

Are you telling them that though? I think there's a constinuency of people out there who go into a race with no thought to tactics more than just "I'll hang in there as long as I can".

Our group leader got a puncture on the first corner so we lost our direction. That right Biker_Joe? I don't think I have the experience/authority/confidence yet to be telling folk what to do in races. There's a tonne of stuff left to learn.

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

Our group leader got a puncture on the first corner so we lost our direction. That right Biker_Joe? I don't think I have the experience/authority/confidence yet to be telling folk what to do in races. There's a tonne of stuff left to learn.

Don't be shy, that's what I say. I'm just as green as you but wouldn't hesitate about cajoling people to work. Or you could wave your arms around Leif Hoste style...

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

Don't be shy, that's what I say. I'm just as green as you but wouldn't hesitate about cajoling people to work. Or you could wave your arms around Leif Hoste style...

\o/

biker_joe

there are many thoughts and schools on this topic .....

In open races the term for someone "sits on" for the whole race and then contests the sprint is called a "scrubber" so that really says it all ......

but then again someone people see this as clever, but doing it won't gain you any friends, but lots of cyclist want to win races and not friends !!
any thoughts in this ?

In a league this will be different, so you have lots different fitness levels ...and levels of experience !

so some maybe hanging in there, and not even able to talk !!! if they are able to sing thats a different matter !!!

Here is way I see it ....
I ride a race to win, in league it means you have to get your group to work to together to catch all the other groups ahead ... I will ride as hard as I can in order to do this, in riding through ( its a good training even if you don't catch anyone )

Once all the groups are caught well then it i reckon it's everyman/woman to him/herself ! depending on what type I think it's going to be ... I will be watching to see to is strong to break away with ... or who is going to have the fastest wheel at the finish for a sprint !! :eek:

Chips Lovell

biker_joe wrote: »

but then again someone people see this as clever, but doing it won't gain you any friends, but lots of cyclist want to win races and not friends !! any thoughts in this ?

Anyone who bitches about this is doesn't understand road racing. It's as much about tactics as it is about fitness. It's their job to drop the passenger if they want a win. Anyone who thinks they've a divine right to a placing based purely on their strength should just ride time trials.

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

Anyone who bitches about this is doesn't understand road racing. It's as much about tactics as it is about fitness. It's their job to drop the passenger if they want a win. Anyone who thinks they've a divine right to a placing based purely on their strength should just ride time trials.

I don't see a problem sitting in towards the end, that's tactical. If someone does it for the whole race, and then contests, well that's just plain rude!

biker_joe

el tonto wrote: »

Anyone who bitches about this is doesn't understand road racing. It's as much about tactics as it is about fitness. It's their job to drop the passenger if they want a win. Anyone who thinks they've a divine right to a placing based purely on their strength should just ride time trials.

El Tonto

I ain't bitching about it, just saying what happens !!! Personally it ain't my style ....

Chips Lovell

biker_joe wrote: »

El Tonto

I ain't bitching about it, just saying what happens !!! Personally it ain't my style ....

Ah no, wasn't saying you were. More like I wouldn't agree with people who get aggro over it.

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

I don't see a problem sitting in towards the end, that's tactical. If someone does it for the whole race, and then contests, well that's just plain rude!

If they can get away with it, why not?

Junior

Why win by using 100% Energy when you can win using 80% Energy ?

DirkVoodoo

I could see myself competing this way...I am also not into cycling for the friendships.

I hate you all.

Chips Lovell

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I could see myself competing this way...I am also not into cycling for the friendships.

I hate you all.

This is getting like America's Next Top Model. "I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win".

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

If they can get away with it, why not?

Well I don't know how they sleep at night if they do.

My reading on the situation is that it's pointless sitting in and leaving it to chance that (1) we won't be caught by later groups and (2) that we will catch the earlier groups.

Jawgap

Junior wrote: »

Why win by using 100% Energy when you can win using 80% Energy ?

Vince Lombardi said this about American Football, but it could easily be about any sport:-

"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."

Maybe that's a good enough reason......

Raam

Junior wrote: »

Why win by using 100% Energy when you can win using 80% Energy ?

That's what the rotation system is for
Work at the front, recover at the back... but you already know that I guess

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

Well I don't know how they sleep at night if they do.

Oh I'd sleep just fine if you were silly enough to tow me around for a win.;)

Raam wrote: »

My reading on the situation is that it's pointless sitting in and leaving it to chance that (1) we won't be caught by later groups and (2) that we will catch the earlier groups.

Yeah, in a handicap race it's a gamble alright. Your self interest lies in the common interest, at least until you know whether the groups are staying away or not. So sitting in if you can work and know you should be working is a bit of a stupid move.

As it happens, my first ever rode race was won by someone who did this. The first group stayed away and the sprint was taken a vet who'd done nothing all night.

Jawgap wrote: »

Vince Lombardi said this about American Football, but it could easily be about any sport:-

"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."

Maybe that's a good enough reason......

I'm reading a biography of Anquetil at the moment, whose philosphy was only to do just enough to win, i.e. why get ten minutes on your rivals when two will do.

quietobserver

Ive been in both positions but any time ive clung on ive not contested a finish. Donegal 3day last weekend was dreadful for it, I made many friends with polite motivating words, then when that didnt work the back door was the only option, i feel bad doing it but some guys take hanging on to the levi leipheimer suck a wheel back your throat stage

TinyExplosions

Junior wrote: »

Why win by using 100% Energy when you can win using 80% Energy ?

Or even 60%, like:

Jawgap

el tonto wrote: »

O


I'm reading a biography of Anquetil at the moment, whose philosphy was only to do just enough to win, i.e. why get ten minutes on your rivals when two will do.

I'd be the first to admit I know nothing about road racing - last time I raced a bike it was twice around Fairview Park on a Raleigh Scorpio!!!

But there is an interesting psychological point, particularly in a league situation - if you win by two minutes, the runner-up thinks you're only two minutes better than him, if you win by 10 that (maybe) has a bigger impact next time you line up.

You know you're 10 minutes better, he knows it and is already wondering if he's done enough to have improved by that margin in the interim. It's just a thought for what it's worth.

Maybe in a tour situation where you've to get back on the bike the next day there is a lot to be said for conserving energy and just doing enough to win.

Junior

Jawgap wrote: »

Vince Lombardi said this about American Football, but it could easily be about any sport:-

"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."

Maybe that's a good enough reason......

Yeah but has he won a Swords League Race ? Pffft ...

I think the overall point is that cycling isn't about the biggest powered person, the fastest, the best climber winning, it's a combination of l33t skills as mentioned and using the grey matter to know when to expand energy, follow a move or make your move.

Junior

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Or even 60%, like:

Well that was 60% of his own and god knows what % of injected 'energy'

Lumen

Sorry to derail this thread with numbers, but for some perspective on smart racing, check this out.

Bart Dockx's Stage 2 Giro d'Italia:
Distance: 156km
Time in saddle: 3:36
Average speed: 43kph
Peak power for 60 minutes: 216W
Peak power for 10 minutes: 294W
Peak power for 5 minutes: 339W
Peak power for 1 minute: 471W

Lumen's Dublin boards spin from last Saturday:
Distance: 138km
Time in saddle: 5:54
Average speed: 23kph
Peak power for 60 minutes: 223W
Peak power for 10 minutes: 279W
Peak power for 5 minutes: 294W
Peak power for 1 minute: 460W

I find it amazing that a world class athlete is putting out only a little more power on a Giro tour stage as a first-year recreational rider on a Saturday spin (admittedly with a few stops) yet he's going almost double the speed.

TinyExplosions

Junior wrote: »

Well that was 60% of his own and god knows what % of injected 'energy'

More like 40% of his own, and 20% boosted... which is 50% of his original, so... oh god, maths gets hard when you start talking about hematocrit!

Jawgap

Junior wrote: »

Yeah but has he won a Swords League Race ? Pffft ...

I think the overall point is that cycling isn't about the biggest powered person, the fastest, the best climber winning, it's a combination of l33t skills as mentioned and using the grey matter to know when to expand energy, follow a move or make your move.

I'm not sure he did......:) Although he may have run an ice-cream parlour where the Pavilions used to be

As an interested observed, I know in team sports we tell the kids to never let up - it's a bad habit to fall into because when you find yourself in a tough situation it's difficult to raise your game.

Also, I'd say from what little I know about cycling and road racing that hanging on and not trying as described might be within the rules of the sport, but it doesn't comply with its spirit or ethos.

If you're not going to honour and respect the traditions of the game, why participate?

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Sorry to derail this thread with numbers, but for some perspective on smart racing, check this out.

Bart Docx's Stage 2 Giro d'Italia:
Distance: 156km
Time in saddle: 3:36
Average speed: 43kph
Peak power for 60 minutes: 216W
Peak power for 10 minutes: 294W
Peak power for 5 minutes: 339W
Peak power for 1 minute: 471W

Lumen's Dublin boards spin from last Saturday:
Distance: 138km
Time in saddle: 5:54
Average speed: 23kph
Peak power for 60 minutes: 223W
Peak power for 10 minutes: 279W
Peak power for 5 minutes: 294W
Peak power for 1 minute: 460W

I find it amazing that a world class athlete is putting out only a little more power on a Giro tour stage as a first-year recreational rider on a Saturday spin (admittedly with a few stops) yet he's going almost double the speed.

He's in a massive bunch I assume. How does his parcours comapre to what you did?

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

I find it amazing that a world class athlete is putting out only a little more power on a Giro tour stage as a first-year recreational rider on a Saturday spin (admittedly with a few stops) yet he's going almost double the speed.

Riding in a bunch of 200 riders will make an enormous difference.

Chips Lovell

Jawgap wrote: »

Also, I'd say from what little I know about cycling and road racing that hanging on and not trying as described might be within the rules of the sport, but it doesn't comply with its spirit or ethos.

If you're not going to honour and respect the traditions of the game, why participate?

Hanging on and cleaning the other guy's clock is a tradition of this sport.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

How does his parcours comapre to what you did?

Me wha'?

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Me wha'?

de bleedin course

Jawgap

Lumen wrote: »

Sorry to derail this thread with numbers, but for some perspective on smart racing, check this out.

Bart Dockx's Stage 2 Giro d'Italia:
Distance: 156km
Time in saddle: 3:36
Average speed: 43kph
Peak power for 60 minutes: 216W
Peak power for 10 minutes: 294W
Peak power for 5 minutes: 339W
Peak power for 1 minute: 471W

Lumen's Dublin boards spin from last Saturday:
Distance: 138km
Time in saddle: 5:54
Average speed: 23kph
Peak power for 60 minutes: 223W
Peak power for 10 minutes: 279W
Peak power for 5 minutes: 294W
Peak power for 1 minute: 460W

I find it amazing that a world class athlete is putting out only a little more power on a Giro tour stage as a first-year recreational rider on a Saturday spin (admittedly with a few stops) yet he's going almost double the speed.

sorry to draw parallels with other sports, but it's the same in rugby, golf and soccer (and probably a whole lot of others) - when you examine the stats of the recreational amateur, the dedicated amateur, the "journeyman" professional and the elite - it is striking how small the margins are between the different categories.

Talent is a part of it, but so is consistency - when the amateur has a bad day it tends to be disastrous, the professional tends to have fewer off days with perfomance declining only marginally.

TinyExplosions

Jawgap wrote: »

If you're not going to honour and respect the traditions of the game, why participate?

To win

I fall in the camp of 'if it annoys you, shake them off' -there's nothing in the rules to stop a wheelsucker, and if someone doesn't want to make any friends, it's their perogative. It may come back to bite them though

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

If they can get away with it, why not?

I think it's a bit much in a handicapped race if the group is meant to be working together to stay away/catch. If someone is not going up front because they are finding the pace too tough then fine but same person will not likely be able to contest the sprint.

No rule against it but if someone is not coming through when there is an organised paceline and then tries something I am going to think they are a bit of a tosser (or a newbie even greener than myself )

Having said all that it is generally easier to be rotating at the front than trying to hang on the back so I would not generally stress about said hangers on (unless I am there myself) - they are probably using more energy than you are, sprinting out of corners etc.

A lot of the time it doesn't seem half so organised though in which case I presume you just do whatever and try to maintain a decent position towards the front.

DirkVoodoo

But you see the pros sitting on someone's wheel and not helping all the time. I would have thought it was just race tactics like others have said rather than a disrespect for the sport.

Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals, well except the weasel.

Jawgap

el tonto wrote: »

Hanging on and cleaning the other guy's clock is a tradition of this sport.

I think it's the "not trying" bit?

Hanging on for dear life and summoning up the last reserves to wipe his eye is a bit more heroic than drifting along in the group is it not?

Raam

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

But you see the pros sitting on someone's wheel and not helping all the time. I would have thought it was just race tactics like others have said rather than a disrespect for the sport.

Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals, well except the weasel.

Blorg mentioned it, but the point of the handicap groups is for you to work together to both catch and stay away from other groups. The pro races are different kettles of fish.

Chips Lovell

Jawgap wrote: »

I think it's the "not trying" bit?

Hanging on for dear life and summoning up the last reserves to wipe his eye is a bit more heroic than drifting along in the group is it not?

The not trying bit means you've got plenty of gas left in the tank for the sprint.

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

I think it's a bit much in a handicapped race if the group is meant to be working together to stay away/catch. If someone is not going up front because they are finding the pace too tough then fine but same person will not likely be able to contest the sprint.

I did say in fairness that it was a bit stupid to do in a handicapped race.

Lumen

Jawgap wrote: »

sorry to draw parallels with other sports, but it's the same in rugby, golf and soccer (and probably a whole lot of others) - when you examine the stats of the recreational amateur, the dedicated amateur, the "journeyman" professional and the elite - it is striking how small the margins are between the different categories

Ah, but my point is that the margins in cycling capability are absolutely massive (Lance can probably put out about double what I can muster) but the pros have to keep it going day in, day out, and for much of a stage are barely breaking a sweat (if they're in a big bunch).

As illustrated by the contrast with a time trial (stage 12).

Jawgap

Lumen wrote: »

Ah, but my point is that the margins in cycling capability are absolutely massive (Lance can probably put out about double what I can muster) but the pros have to keep it going day in, day out, and for much of a stage are barely breaking a sweat (if they're in a big bunch).

As illustrated by the contrast with a time trial (stage 12).

goes to consistency - they can do it day in / day out - whereas most of the rest of us have jobs to go to, or studying etc:)