Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

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cowzerp wrote: »

So Dogs are stupid now? :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

of course they understand dominance, its what keeps packs stable and in control.

The study you showed is muck.

You're over-simplifying what domination even is. It has meaning to us because we define it

To a dog it's just another emotional trigger.

I think the report really means that that emotional trigger is overstated when compared to others such as affection etc

peasant

Another excellent article on this topic ...this time from someone who gets recommended on this forum a lot:

http://dogtrainingireland.ie/blog/2008/05/06/is-your-dog-dominant/

cloudy day

helena.ryan wrote: »

I have to say I've always found pesants posts very informative and helpful.

I think people just have different ideas on dominance. My idea of it is that every member of a family has to respect the others for the family to run smoothly. Same in packs. A leader is there to reinforce this respect. Not bully the dog. Being the dominant one in your home is not about pushing the dog around, just about having him live by your rules, respecting, in so far as possible, his "doggyness".

If you see dominance as being the idea of browbeating the dog into submission (as many so called dominant owners do) then I completly see why you would disagree.

Agreed. I also find peasants posts very informative and helpful.

boomerang

Me too. I've got huge respect for peasant's views.

cloudy day

The trouble with these topics is there a myriad different things that have to be taken into discussion when it comes to dog training.

Usually a naughty spoiled pet dog has been made that way by it's owners. Usually as they have no knowledge or experience with dogs. So it's not the dog's fault.

I don't agree with any froms of training that are overly aggressive or use bullyling and administering fear in a dog to get results. If a dog is brought up properly from the get go, there will be no problems ( as a rule).

In a family pack the pup's are taught these things from birth, naturally. When a puppy get's too annoying, he his corrected - he learns. So is this submission, I believe so. Sometimes due to a dog's own personality make-up as he gets older he will push his luck too far and will get a bit of a battering.

Is this classed as the other's exerting dominance.

It seems pretty clear in groups of dogs, that live together that there is dominance and submission at play. If not, what do you label them as ?

Either way I still feel that report is not worth the paper it was written on as they used neutered male's.

Has anyone any experience of neutered males being aggressive. (not dogs that were neutered at an older age)

peasant

cloudy day wrote: »

Has anyone any experience of neutered males being aggressive. (not dogs that were neutered at an older age)

Yepp, me ...only last weekend

Our big fella who's nine now was already neutered when we got him at 18 months.

We were out camping last weekend and there was a little stray (male, young-ish and intact) investigating our camp and the two bitches every so often. That young dog didn't do anything untoward (other than marking) and was quite timid, never approached really close and just circled at a distance.

But the extensive and repeated marking of "his" patch must have upset our fella big time ...whenever he became aware of this young dog approaching, he grew to about three times his size, growling, barking, showing his teeth (a very, very rare sight with him) and pulling at the lead like a train. In the end I had to give in to him and let him "chase away" the intruder (with me on the other end of the lead of course) to get him to calm down.

But other visiting dogs (also intact males but on leads and obviously accompanied by people) only got friendly greetings.

beth-lou

peasant wrote: »

I (we) have three dogs and I can't make out any hirarchy among them, nor can I find evidence of dominant behaviour. One dog takes the lead on one certain task, another on a different one while I try to be their leader in everything.]

Really? I have four dogs, 2 bitches and 2 dogs and there is definitely a dominent one amongst them and she is the first one we got, a german shepard / lab cross. She's a great dog, has never been aggressive to other dogs (or people) outside of the house or dogs that have come into the house, but she does show the other three that she is boss on regular occasions, simply by mounting them or the odd nip if they are over stepping the mark. She is respected, although now and then the other bitch will have a go, and is quickly shown who is the boss. The two dogs are happy out and couldn't care less really. But Sally is the boss and is always first in the door, and first to eat. She shows her dominance not by fighting or growling, but she imposes it none the less. We used to have a little terrier too that loved to nip her and push it, but I think each dog is different and you will always have one in a group that is more dominant. That is just my observation over the years. But all of my dogs know that both me and my hubby and my kids are first in the pecking order, and this has to be the case, especially when you have children around dogs.

I believe that leadership (of dogs) has to be earned rather than forced, established rather than surplanted and constantly re-newed rather than re-enforced.

I agree with you in 99.9% of cases. But some dogs are more aggressive and need a steady hand. It would be dreamy if they were all as easy as most, but sadly this is not the case. The same thing goes for all species from what I can see. That's natures way.

You have to work with your dogs (not against them) for them to willingly work with you.

I agree with you there.

The dog - leader relationship still isn't a democracy though ...rather a benevolent dictatorship.

Nicely put.

[/QUOTE]


My main bone of contention is that most problem dogs, have problem owners. Some people indulge their dogs far too much and it leads to all sorts of trouble with the dog getting the blame, when really if the owner showed proper leadership or dominance, whatever the word, it's the actions that matter, the dog would be so much happier and well behaved.

peasant

beth-lou wrote: »

My main bone of contention is that most problem dogs, have problem owners. Some people indulge their dogs far too much and it leads to all sorts of trouble with the dog getting the blame, when really if the owner showed proper leadership or dominance, whatever the word, it's the actions that matter, the dog would be so much happier and well behaved.

Indeed.

The main and major mistake people make with and around dogs is to be inconsequent and erratic.

Dogs are very "black and white" when it comes to rules, they don't really do "grey areas" whereas we humans find it very difficult to apply the letter of the law the same way every single time ...every so often we let the dogs get away with it. They of course are very quick picking up any loosening of the rules and will push their boundaries ...only to be called "dominant" for it

Morganna

cloudy day wrote: »

The trouble with these topics is there a myriad different things that have to be taken into discussion when it comes to dog training.

Usually a naughty spoiled pet dog has been made that way by it's owners. Usually as they have no knowledge or experience with dogs. So it's not the dog's fault.

I don't agree with any froms of training that are overly aggressive or use bullyling and administering fear in a dog to get results. If a dog is brought up properly from the get go, there will be no problems ( as a rule).

In a family pack the pup's are taught these things from birth, naturally. When a puppy get's too annoying, he his corrected - he learns. So is this submission, I believe so. Sometimes due to a dog's own personality make-up as he gets older he will push his luck too far and will get a bit of a battering.

Is this classed as the other's exerting dominance.

It seems pretty clear in groups of dogs, that live together that there is dominance and submission at play. If not, what do you label them as ?

Either way I still feel that report is not worth the paper it was written on as they used neutered male's.

Has anyone any experience of neutered males being aggressive. (not dogs that were neutered at an older age)

well said Cloudy

cloudy day

Hi Morganna. How's all your lot doing. I was talking to a neighbour the other day who bought GSD's and he is also into your type. Wouldn't touch the "frog's" with a barge pole.

cloudy day

peasant wrote: »

Yepp, me ...only last weekend

Our big fella who's nine now was already neutered when we got him at 18 months.

We were out camping last weekend and there was a little stray (male, young-ish and intact) investigating our camp and the two bitches every so often. That young dog didn't do anything untoward (other than marking) and was quite timid, never approached really close and just circled at a distance.

But the extensive and repeated marking of "his" patch must have upset our fella big time ...whenever he became aware of this young dog approaching, he grew to about three times his size, growling, barking, showing his teeth (a very, very rare sight with him) and pulling at the lead like a train. In the end I had to give in to him and let him "chase away" the intruder (with me on the other end of the lead of course) to get him to calm down.

But other visiting dogs (also intact males but on leads and obviously accompanied by people) only got friendly greetings.

Thanks for that info Peasant. Would yousay it was a territorial gaurding thing of his ladies ?

I find with my males it seems to be jealousy, like these are my human's and I'm not sharing. The sibe tries to be bossy over the other's and sometimes needs constant reprimanding. They are older dog's though and have not been brought up together. The other's get on grand.

peasant

cloudy day wrote: »

Thanks for that info Peasant. Would yousay it was a territorial gaurding thing of his ladies ?

That would seem like the most logical explanation ...he was fine however with other dogs that were being walked there, so it may have been something else.

Over the last few years he has developed into quite the guard dog though and as we live rurally with the odd dodgy character coming down the drive, we haven't really curbed his enthusiasm in that regard as his mere presence has prevented quite a few "characters" from ever returning again.

Maybe he just saw an uncontrolled dog as a potential threat ...who knows...