Irish referendum on right to citizenship

samsham

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

turgon

I thought the referendum was to do with whether children born in Ireland are automatically citizens?

You say you child is Irish, how are they going to deport him? And to where?

turgon

27th Amendment to the Irish Constitution wrote:

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.

Where does this say your family will be "kicked out"?

greendom

turgon wrote: »

I thought the referendum was to do with whether children born in Ireland are automatically citizens?

You say you child is Irish, how are they going to deport him? And to where?

I think the worry is that the mother may be deported which will mean the child would have to leave too

samsham

turgon wrote: »

I thought the referendum was to do with whether children born in Ireland are automatically citizens?

You say you child is Irish, how are they going to deport him? And to where?

A lot of people taught the same as you. Children born in Ireland will always have citizenship. regarding my child. If anything was to happen to me my child has the right to live in Ireland, but her mother does not. You hardly think the mother would leave her here alone. The mother can be deported. which means the child goes too. I don't think thats fair. Do you

greendom

samsham wrote: »

A lot of people taught the same as you. Children born in Ireland will always have citizenship. regarding my child. If anything was to happen to me my child has the right to live in Ireland, but her mother does not. You hardly thing the mother would leave her here alone. The mother can be deported.
which means the child goes too. I don't think thats fair. Do you

Referenda are often such a bad idea. People really don't have a clue

samsham

greendom wrote: »

I think the worry is that the mother may be deported which will mean the child would have to leave too

Exactly every year I must attend a Garda immigration officer with my wife
to renew her yearly visa. If I am not present her spouse visa is no longer valid. Not being valid she can be subject to deportation. Like you said she is not going to leave her child here. Its a scary thought for me. I am from Waterford as Irish as you get. I am sure many more are in this predicament.

Mena

I'm in two minds about this one, and I'm saying that as someone who made use of the IBC scheme to get away from the repressive work permit system (read on before the feigned indignation makes you post a reply).

On the one hand, you had people coming into Ireland 7 and 8 months pregnant, their sole aim to abuse the system and be allowed to stay here based on the citizenship of their child, albeit they had only, in some cases, been in Ireland a few days. Clearly this had to be stopped, it devalued Irish citizenship and make a mockery of an already outdated and unable to cope immigration system.

On the other hand, people like me had been here over 5 years when we finally had our daughter, so in fairness, I don't feel I've "scammed" any system at all.

If I was actually allowed to vote in said referendum, I honestly could not say which way it would have gone, but quite possibly I would have towed the government line.

In your own case, I don't think you'd have anything to fear were you to suddenly die. The powers to deport in IBC cases may be discretionary, but I haven't seen them used "willy nilly" in fairness. I'd say you could be quite confident both your wife and your child could remain here in Ireland for the long term.

However, that being said, its not a certainty (such is anything to do with immigration in Ireland unfortunately), and clafirication of legal status should the worse happen in a case such as yours would be ideal, but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for it.

markopantelic wrote: »

66% who voted to change the referendum are ugly backward inbreds.

I'm not so sure. There was a valid concern in this area as I highlighted above.

markopantelic

66% who voted to change the referendum are ugly backward inbreds.

samsham

Mena wrote: »

I'm in two minds about this one, and I'm saying that as someone who made use of the IBC scheme to get away from the repressive work permit system (read on before the feigned indignation makes you post a reply).

On the one hand, you had people coming into Ireland 7 and 8 months pregnant, their sole aim to abuse the system and be allowed to stay here based on the citizenship of their child, albeit they had only, in some cases, been in Ireland a few days. Clearly this had to be stopped, it devalued Irish citizenship and make a mockery of an already outdated and unable to cope immigration system.

On the other hand, people like me had been here over 5 years when we finally had our daughter, so in fairness, I don't feel I've "scammed" any system at all.

If I was actually allowed to vote in said referendum, I honestly could not say which way it would have gone, but quite possibly I would have towed the government line.

In your own case, I don't think you'd have anything to fear were you to suddenly die. The powers to deport in IBC cases may be discretionary, but I haven't seen them used "willy nilly" in fairness. I'd say you could be quite confident both your wife and your child could remain here in Ireland for the long term.

However, that being said, its not a certainty (such is anything to do with immigration in Ireland unfortunately), and clafirication of legal status should the worse happen in a case such as yours would be ideal, but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for it.



I'm not so sure. There was a valid concern in this area as I highlighted above.

I know there are different circumstances but even a woman traveling on a plane at eight months pregnancy is thinking of her child not her. Would you not want the best for your family. I know people had a lot to think about.
But you don't use a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Our country is under populated. If we don't populate it quickly who going to pay for our growing old age pension. The referendum coincided with government elections. It was designed to appease fears of immigrants taking Irish jobs

ionix5891

Its sad ain't it?

all people care now is getting a mortgage an a wooden box within the Dublin suburbia

its a rat race and everyone is in it for themselves, theres alot of people like that in Ireland, must do terrible things to the psyche and sense of security

so much for cornerstone of the society being the family :rolleyes: i wonder has anyone being deported in this fashion yet? im sure we wont hear about it on news

Mena

samsham wrote: »

I know there are different circumstances but even a woman traveling on a plane at eight months pregnancy is thinking of her child not her. Would you not want the best for your family. I know people had a lot to think about.
But you don't use a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Our country is under populated. If we don't populate it quickly who going to pay for our growing old age pension. The referendum coincided with government elections. It was designed to appease fears of immigrants taking Irish jobs

To be fair, I don't blame those taking advantage of the system. I myself would do whatever it took to provide for and take care of my family. It was still and abuse and the government, any government could not in good conscious ignore it.

I do agree it was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, wanted to post that but forgot the exact phrase

ionix5891 wrote: »

so much for cornerstone of the society being the family i wonder has anyone being deported in this fashion yet? im sure we wont hear about it on news

A good few have been yes. Mostly from Nigeria from what I recall. Now I don't have the stats/data or references to back it up, but in most cases it seems the father or whatever was away for 4 or 5 years then suddenly shows up claiming residency. Been a good few cases in the courts.

markopantelic

imo over the next 20 years ireland should try to organise a controlled population growth, we should aim for a population of about 10 million by 2025 and none of that 'right to return' stuff that mcwilliams thinks we should do.

redout

samsham wrote: »

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

I understand were you are coming from but the amendement to the constitution was required as many a person was taking advantage and the Irish people were obviously aware of this and hence why the voted for it. I myself voted for it and am proud to have done so. There was many Non-Eu nationals being versed in this loophole back in their own countries and arriving here either heavily pregnant or getting pregnant only for the purpose to gain right to remain in the country. That in itself was wrong but what about all these poor unplanned and unwanted children in some instances who were born to parents who never wanted them in the first place but only for the sake to remain here. In your case I am sure if your wife brought it to the Departments attention were you to die then possibly something could be worked out.

samsham

Read the document recently released from Social welfare. They saved 250 million on catching welfare cheats. Reading the documents its clear it's our own guys defrauding the state not foreigners.

ionix5891

markopantelic wrote: »

imo over the next 20 years ireland should try to organise a controlled population growth, we should aim for a population of about 10 million by 2025 and none of that 'right to return' stuff that mcwilliams thinks we should do.

considering the next decade will more likely be very tough, i dont see how we can make that many babies to hit 10 million people (doubling the population)

unless the lights start going out

samsham

redout wrote: »

I understand were you are coming from but the amendement to the constitution was required as many a person was taking advantage and the Irish people were obviously aware of this and hence why the voted for it. I myself voted for it and am proud to have done so. There was many Non-Eu nationals being versed in this loophole back in their own countries and arriving here either heavily pregnant or getting pregnant only for the purpose to gain right to remain in the country. That in itself was wrong but what about all these poor unplanned and unwanted children in some instances who were born to parents who never wanted them in the first place but only for the sake to remain here. In your case I am sure if your wife brought it to the Departments attention were you to die then possibly something could be worked out.

I think parents everywhere will look for the best for their kids. But we as a nation are looking for a amnesty for our hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants in America. My point is this country can not sustain itself with its population. All research says we need a bigger population. This referendum accompanied a general election and was aimed at fears of foreigners taking Irish jobs,

truebluedub

At the time FF, FG and the PD's argued that they were closing a loophole and suggested that the maternity wards were flooded with foreign mothers coming in late in their pregnancies. McDowell claimed this info came from the Masters of Dublin's Maternity Hospitals. The Masters refuted this but the racist myth had already become common currency.

I voted against this referendum.

redout

samsham wrote: »

Read the document recently released from Social welfare. They saved 250 million on catching welfare cheats. Reading the documents its clear it's our own guys defrauding the state not foreigners.

The department recently done a series of spot checks in the dole office on something like 2,200 persons at random and found that 275 of them were scamming the dole and the finding they released said the majority of those caught were foreign nationals and not Irish. These were the Department own findings and reported through RTE back in april.

Link here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0406/welfare.html

lostexpectation

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

Joe C

lostexpectation wrote: »

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

How many ?

turgon

Apoligies to the OP, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Of course your spouse should be allowed to stay here.

In a case like this, wouldnt the easiest thing be for your wife to apply for citizenship? Given ye are narried and resident this shouldnt be to much bother. Although you wouldnt know I suppose.

Things like this should not be so wooly. It should be clearly outlined what the implications of your death would be.

samsham

turgon wrote: »

Apoligies to the OP, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Of course your spouse should be allowed to stay here.

In a case like this, wouldnt the easiest thing be for your wife to apply for citizenship? Given ye are narried and resident this shouldnt be to much bother. Although you wouldnt know I suppose.

Things like this should not be so wooly. It should be clearly outlined what the implications of your death would be.

you must be resident in a country for several years before being eligible to apply for citizenship. Sure maybe four years time, that is exactly what she will be doing. Just thought to myself when posting this, surely it must be a circumstance someone experienced before. Almost certain the same applies to people with American spouses. Of course its at the discretion of a minister, but then take a look at our ministers. Our former minister for integration Conor lennighan referring to Turkish people as Kababs. Would not fancy my chances with him..

sideshowsue

turgon wrote: »

Apoligies to the OP, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Of course your spouse should be allowed to stay here.

In a case like this, wouldnt the easiest thing be for your wife to apply for citizenship? Given ye are narried and resident this shouldnt be to much bother. Although you wouldnt know I suppose.

Things like this should not be so wooly. It should be clearly outlined what the implications of your death would be.

1. An applicant for naturalisation must have been legally resident in Ireland for 5 years before submission of the application.

2. Due to serious inefficiencies, the lack of accountability and transparency in the whole process, it takes at least 3 years from the original date of submission of the application for naturalisation for a decision. In short, it takes a total of 8 years to be naturalised (fulfillment of residency requirements + application processing times).

3. The legal residence of the OPs wife is entirely dependent on the subsistence of her marriage to an Irish national. Although it is true that following a divorce/separation, the non-EEA spouse has no further right to reside legally in the state, I think in the case of the death of the spouse, even the INIS could find the heart, sympathy and good sense to allow the non-EEA spouse to continue to reside in Ireland based on humanitarian grounds.

seamus

Shamsham, you only need to be married for three years before she can apply for citizenship, assuming that you've both been resident here for those three years.

I would imagine your situation is quite rare - that is, health scare early on in a marriage *and* a child in the marriage.

However, an Irish spouse dying before their foreign spouse applied for citizenship has surely occured before. I'm sure there's some rule in place. If you're really concerned, you could contact the INIS and ask them.

In any case, since deportations are usually decided upon by a judge, the odds of your wife being sent home based on the facts of her case would be minimal.

1. An applicant for naturalisation must have been legally resident in Ireland for 5 years before submission of the application.

This is not correct. The non-Irish spouse needs only to have been resident for 2 of the past 4 years and had one year's continuous residence before applying for residency. You also need to be married for at least three years. So theoretically one could apply for citizenship within two years of arriving in Ireland, assuming you'd been married for at least a year before arriving here.

sideshowsue

I stand corrected. I merely wanted to point out that the Irish naturalisation procedure is by no means a 'snap your fingers and it's done' process.

As someone who is currently going through the naturalisation process and hopes to see a positive and fruitful end to my application, it is frustrating to hear/read comments from those who think that the entire process takes a matter of months. It's a matter of years--long, frustrating years in which it is impossible to get any clear guidance or or even a guestimate as to when a decision will be taken.

Sorry for the mini rant.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Sympathise with you OP but there were far too many people taking advantage of that loophole and its no different in other european countries

is_that_so

Also sympathise but as posted your situation can be regularised in 2010. I have Asian friends who were part of the same rigmarole and they eventually became naturalised. Immigration control is required and no country can be without the wherewithal to address it.

samsham

is_that_so wrote: »

Also sympathise but as posted your situation can be regularised in 2010. I have Asian friends who were part of the same rigmarole and they eventually became naturalised. Immigration control is required and no country can be without the wherewithal to address it.

Don't think it's a simple as that. that's from someone dealing with emigration officials on a frequent basis. When I first brought my wife to emmigration, I was ashmed to be Irish. Firstly your wife is photographed and finger printed. Then issued with an National Garda immigration identification card and told she must carry it at all times or could face arrest or deportation. Its my wife were talking about not a criminal. Meanwhile our Government who implements this policy goes to Washington cap in hand looking for an amnesty for our illegals. What a shower of hyprocrites. Beleive me I know noone who got nuturalization in five years. You are only intitled to apply after three years.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

79% of Irish people voted for this change in the constitution. Now, to dismiss their legitmate concerns over this issue as simple racism is absurd. We live in a democracy, my friend. The people have a right to voice their opinions. If you dont like it try somewhere else.

In the most recent opinion poll on immigration "ALMOST TWO-THIRDS of adults in the State believe immigration policy should be made more restrictive given the worsening economic outlook". Are they all racist as well? Immigration is a major concern for some people at present, please stop using the racism card, any argument you may have is lost once you do so. It is demeaning to people who actually experience racism.

Now you claim we need major population growth to pay pensions. Well heres news for you, immigrants grow old too, they will need pensions in their later years. They dont live on air. So in effect, you are just delaying the inevitable. At the moment we are finding it difficult to provide services for the people already on this island. Education system stretched to the brink, students in prefabs, more cutbacks on the way. Health system is on par with the 3rd world. Social Welfare services at record levels. Do you really think importing more people is what we need at the moment, seriously?

PaulieD

lostexpectation wrote: »

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

So 79% of the country is xenophobic. I find that hard to believe considering the numbers immigrating here.:rolleyes:

ShooterSF

lostexpectation wrote: »

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

I don't understand. If someone is xenophobic should they not vote in favour of that referendum? Surely if one is xenophobic the should have voted for it.
OP I sympathise with your situation. I'd like to think your wife would be offered protection due to the fact that she has a child, is married to an Irishman and has lived here a while.
The problem that was solved was people using loophole to get into the country. Even if you did support an increase in populace there's a right and wrong way to do it and an un-vetted loophole is a bad idea.

markopantelic

yep, i'd say pretty much close to that number is in some way xenephobic, strange country we live in, many actually do think we're being overun by immigrants, i mean i had a cousin over who lives in london and if you said dublin was 'multicultural' he'd give you the old roll eyes.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

79% of Irish people voted for this change in the constitution. Now, to dismiss their legitmate concerns over this issue as simple racism is absurd. We live in a democracy, my friend. The people have a right to voice their opinions. If you dont like it try somewhere else.

In the most recent opinion poll on immigration "ALMOST TWO-THIRDS of adults in the State believe immigration policy should be made more restrictive given the worsening economic outlook". Are they all racist as well? Immigration is a major concern for some people at present, please stop using the racism card, any argument you may have is lost once you do so. It is demeaning to people who actually experience racism.

Now you claim we need major population growth to pay pensions. Well heres news for you, immigrants grow old too, they will need pensions in their later years. They dont live on air. So in effect, you are just delaying the inevitable. At the moment we are finding it difficult to provide services for the people already on this island. Education system stretched to the brink, students in prefabs, more cutbacks on the way. Health system is on par with the 3rd world. Social Welfare services at record levels. Do you really think importing more people is what we need at the moment, seriously?

Don't you just love that "MY FRIEND" crap. Its was pure racism, You see how ill informed people are, You have just highlighted the ignorance in your argument. People who emigrate here legally are no financial burden on the state. You must provide bank details to show you can support your wife. You must provide health insurance to insure hospital care is covered. Lastly you are not entitled to claim welfare in this state until you have been resident more than two years that applies to returning Irish too. Your argument might apply to asylum seekers, but that's not what I am talking about.

PaulieD

markopantelic wrote: »

yep, i'd say pretty much close to that number is in some way xenephobic, strange country we live in, many actually do think we're being overun by immigrants, i mean i had a cousin over who lives in london and if you said dublin was 'multicultural' he'd give you the old roll eyes.

You think 79% of this country is xenophobic? Really? What a horrible place to live if you are an immigrant. They must be cowering in fear.:rolleyes:

Do you think it may be possible that normal decent people might have concerns over the amount of foreign nationals this country has absorbed in the last couple of years? Can one have rational concerns about immigration without being referred to as a xenophobe?

squonk

samsham wrote: »

A lot of people taught the same as you. Children born in Ireland will always have citizenship. regarding my child. If anything was to happen to me my child has the right to live in Ireland, but her mother does not. You hardly think the mother would leave her here alone. The mother can be deported. which means the child goes too. I don't think thats fair. Do you

The child can come back when they are of an age where they can assert their own independence. What's the problem? Just because you have a child in a country shouldn't mean you have automatic rights to citizenship of that country.

samsham

squonk wrote: »

The child can come back when they are of an age where they can assert their own independence. What's the problem? Just because you have a child in a country shouldn't mean you have automatic rights to citizenship of that country.

your logic would imply none of us would have any rights then, You were born here why should you have a right to a passport. Our first president should have been kicked out too. I am talking about the spouse of an Irish person, like your wife. You dont think she should have rights.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

Don't you just love that "MY FRIEND" crap. Its was pure racism, You see how ill informed people are, You have just highlighted the ignorance in your argument. People who emigrate here legally are no financial burden on the state. You must provide bank details to show you can support your wife. You must provide health insurance to insure hospital care is covered. Lastly you are not entitled to claim welfare in this state until you have been resident more than two years that applies to returning Irish too. Your argument might apply to asylum seekers, but that's not what I am talking about.

I was being civil, try it some time. This may be an emotive issue for you, for good reason it effects the two people you love most, but you wont win people over by screaming racist if they disagree with you. Are you honestly suggesting 79% of the people in this country are racist? That is a lie and you know it. People who emigrate here are entitled to child benefits, are entitled to all the services that the state provides for citizens with an exception in social welfare. That costs money, which we do not have.

I am not talking about asylum seekers.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

I was being civil, try it some time. This may be an emotive issue for you, for good reason it effects the two people you love most, but you wont win people over by screaming racist if they disagree with you. Are you honestly suggesting 79% of the people in this country are racist? That is a lie and you know it. People who emigrate here are entitled to child benefits, are entitled to all the services that the state provides for citizens with an exception in social welfare. That costs money, which we do not have.

I am not talking about asylum seekers.

No I dont agree with you when I or my wife are sick the state pays me nothing. I have no free medical. I work. Who the hell these days gets free medical care? As for child benefit. My child is a citizen and so am I. Why should we be treated differently from you. Before the referendum Spouse of Irish were naturalized citizens trough marriage. This was changed, why? there was no flood of foreign women
wanting to marry Irish men for citizenship. So what was the change about.

ionix5891

sideshowsue wrote: »

I stand corrected. I merely wanted to point out that the Irish naturalisation procedure is by no means a 'snap your fingers and it's done' process.

As someone who is currently going through the naturalisation process and hopes to see a positive and fruitful end to my application, it is frustrating to hear/read comments from those who think that the entire process takes a matter of months. It's a matter of years--long, frustrating years in which it is impossible to get any clear guidance or or even a guestimate as to when a decision will be taken.

Sorry for the mini rant.

the process is up to 3 years now i hear, thats after a minimum of 5 years living here before you can apply

so thats 5 + 3 years in state with no leaving the country for longer than few weeks, no claiming dole, paying taxes, not getting on gardai radar

i symphatise with you

squonk

samsham wrote: »

your logic would imply none of us would have any rights then, You were born here why should you have a right to a passport. Our first president should have been kicked out too. I am talking about the spouse of an Irish person, like your wife. You dont think she should have rights.

I'm not saying that your wife shouldn't have rights, I actually worded my response very poorly. What I meant to say is that I voted for the closing of a loophole that was open to abuse by mothers of irish born children claiming residency. I am happy that I voted to close that loophole. I think that there will always be exception in any case where a rule is in force. I would fully support anyone who goes through the naturlaisation process becoming a citizen. My issue is that we shouldn't have people short circuiting the imigration process by claiming that they have somehow a requirement to stay because they have a child who is a citizen, if they are not a citizen themselves.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

No I dont agree with you when I or my wife are sick the state pays me nothing. I have no free medical. I work. Who the hell these days gets free medical care? As for child benefit. My child is a citizen and so am I. Why should we be treated differently from you. Before the referendum Spouse of Irish were naturalized citizens trough marriage. This was changed, why? there was no flood of foreign women
wanting to marry Irish men for citizenship. So what was the change about.

The system was being abused by people having anchor babies and gaining citizenship. It is unfortunate that legitimate cases like yourself are being hurt by the change in legislation.

Just to put some perspective on the scale of abuse, a recent article on immigration understates the problem with Nigerian immigration and social welfare benefits.
According to the Department of Trades records, 332 work permits were granted to Nigerians over the years while fewer than 150 were granted refugee status during the same period by the minister for justice.


Stated Government policy and Irish immigration law prohibits the payment of welfare benefits to non-EU nationals, other than those granted refugee status. That, in effect, means the maximum number of Nigerians eligible to claim welfare benefits here is 150.


A massive number of Nigerians have immigrated to Ireland. The previous Minister for Justice stated that no amnesty was to be granted to these people, yet a scheme was designed to allow them remain in Ireland called the IBC/05 scheme.


This scheme granted the right of full welfare benefits to these immigrants.


Those who came to Ireland may, if they so choose, claim unemployment and rental accommodation payments and all other welfare benefits including medical cards.


In effect, the scheme created a new category of immigrant, one that has no lawful basis. Thousands of Nigerian immigrants have never worked in Ireland, yet the Irish taxpayer has to pay for them for the rest of their natural lives.


The IBC/05 scheme was grafted on to existing immigration law, even though no legislation for the provision of welfare benefits to illegal immigrants exists. No Bill to accommodate it was brought before the Oireachtas and no vote on this scheme was ever taken even though it requires a massive diversion of publicly raised funds destined for other purposes and voted on by Dail Eireann.


The scheme was implemented in January 2005. More illegal immigrants were granted leave to remain here under this scheme then than the combined total of legal immigrants granted work permits from non-EU countries over the past four years.


Some 23,178 Nigerians are registered with the Department of social welfare. How is this number possible?


Extrapolating from the figures published last week Nigerians alone are receiving a minimum of €100m in benefits per year. This figure is likely much higher.


The scale of the problem is apparent to ordinary Irish people.


The regulation and enforcement of immigration law and policies is currently in a state of anarchy. Resentment of this injustice against the Irish people is ignored by the political establishment and allowed to fester.

ionix5891

blame the government

asylum seekers are not allowed to work, even if they want to

samsham

Was it not Mary Harny that recently that recently blamed cheating lone parents for the huge welfare bill and demanded the fathers be named. Look you can get the figures you want to suit your cause. As for the changes in the referendum. They targeted babies for Christ sake instead of border controls. you cant get to America these days without being issued with a visa at point of departure. Simple, but we have to use a sledge hammer to crack a nut.



NORTHERN dole cheats are taking advantage of high social welfare payments on this side of the Border and are signing on here in substantial numbers further adding to already burgeoning dole queues, the Inishowen Independent can reveal. And the sharp increase in the volume of new claimants over the past 12 months in Buncrana and other Donegal social welfare offices is presenting more opportunities for fraudulent claims.

perhaps we should put the border back up ang get the soldiers out of the barracks

oscarBravo

PaulieD wrote: »

Do you think it may be possible that normal decent people might have concerns over the amount of foreign nationals this country has absorbed in the last couple of years? Can one have rational concerns about immigration without being referred to as a xenophobe?

If people are concerned about having foreigners in the country, that pretty much makes them xenophobic by definition.

PaulieD

ionix5891 wrote: »

blame the government

asylum seekers are not allowed to work, even if they want to

Regarding my post, all of those mentioned are entitled to work, instead they are on welfare. They have leave to remain granted under the IBC scheme, even though the Irish people voted against it. They have no democratic right to remain here, it is against the wishes of the vast majority(79%) of Irish people. That is fact.

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

If people are concerned about having foreigners in the country, that pretty much makes them xenophobic by definition.

If they are concerned with the numbers, that is not xenophobic. Using your logic, are all immigration control policies purely stemming from xenophobia?

People are concerned with the numbers. Pure and simple, nothing to do with xenophobia.

Do you think non nationals who come here and give birth should have the right to Irish citizenship and all that entails?

SWL

samsham wrote: »

Don't you just love that "MY FRIEND" crap. Its was pure racism, You see how ill informed people are, You have just highlighted the ignorance in your argument. People who emigrate here legally are no financial burden on the state. You must provide bank details to show you can support your wife. You must provide health insurance to insure hospital care is covered. Lastly you are not entitled to claim welfare in this state until you have been resident more than two years that applies to returning Irish too. Your argument might apply to asylum seekers, but that's not what I am talking about.

Reading your posts you come across as very naive, every country is entitled to control its boarders, surely before you married and started a family you looked into the status of your family should anything happen to you. I understand you’re predicament, As a child of an Irish farther and European mother, I am not an Irish citizen by choice, as I was born and reared in another country that of my mothers.

Unfortunately you are at the receiving end of a system that can not be reformed because unless the country’s immigration policy consists a free for all any border controls and immigration policy that is discussed and is not conforming to a passport and a right to residency for tom dick and Harry then everybody who opposes that view is a racist and xenophobic, which is nonsense.

you self have played on that fact calling people racist because they didn’t agree with your biased view, which is why the status quo exists had immigration policy being discussed in a mature manner without the usual chants of racism etc then maybe your problem wont exist because a legal mechanism could be used.

PaulieD post hit the nail on the head, complete abuse of a system, so don’t blame Irish people for stopping the abuse blame the people who abused the system in the first place.

is_that_so

samsham wrote: »

Don't think it's a simple as that. that's from someone dealing with emigration officials on a frequent basis. When I first brought my wife to emmigration, I was ashmed to be Irish. Firstly your wife is photographed and finger printed. Then issued with an National Garda immigration identification card and told she must carry it at all times or could face arrest or deportation. Its my wife were talking about not a criminal. Meanwhile our Government who implements this policy goes to Washington cap in hand looking for an amnesty for our illegals. What a shower of hyprocrites. Beleive me I know noone who got nuturalization in five years. You are only intitled to apply after three years.

As I said I sympathise and I would hope and even expect your situation will be normalised sooner rather than later. I do think however, that unpleasant as it is, you are looking at it from your own perspective.

In my time in EU countries I have had my passport confiscated for three weeks for a residence permit, had to negotiate my way into an airport because I was unaware I needed a visa, been green carded in the UK on a number occasions, and had to spent the best part of a month's salary on a visa to get back into a country I was legally resident in. None of these experiences I would wish to repeat but they were part of an immigration system and I accepted that this was a part of it what I had to do if I chose to live in those countries at that time.

samsham

SWL wrote: »

Reading your posts you come across as very naive, every country is entitled to control its boarders, surely before you married and started a family you looked into the status of your family should anything happen to you. I understand you’re predicament, As a child of an Irish farther and European mother, I am not an Irish citizen by choice, as I was born and reared in another country that of my mothers.

Unfortunately you are at the receiving end of a system that can not be reformed because unless the country’s immigration policy consists a free for all any border controls and immigration policy that is discussed and is not conforming to a passport and a right to residency for tom dick and Harry then everybody who opposes that view is a racist and xenophobic, which is nonsense.

you self have played on that fact calling people racist because they didn’t agree with your biased view, which is why the status quo exists had immigration policy being discussed in a mature manner without the usual chants of racism etc then maybe your problem wont exist because a legal mechanism could be used.

PaulieD post hit the nail on the head, complete abuse of a system, so don’t blame Irish people for stopping the abuse blame the people who abused the system in the first place.

What abuse Ireland has the lowest numbers of foreign emmigrants in any european state. We had close to 500,000 foreigners during the boom, Just 40,000 were uninvited. 400,000+ were contributing towords our economy, the othere were not allowed. Like I said were an Island. Everything must fly in here. France and Britian were allowing migrants pass there borders to enter Ireland. There is a solution alright. Its protecting your borders, not leglislating against babies. WHO DID I CALL RACIST, I SAID THE REFERENDUM WAS RACIST.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

What abuse Ireland has the lowest numbers of foreign emmigrants in any european state. We had close to 500,000 foreigners during the boom, Just 40,000 were uninvited. 400,000+ were contributing towords our economy, the othere were not allowed. Like I said were an Island. Everything must fly in here. France and Britian were allowing migrants pass there borders to enter Ireland. There is a solution alright. Its protecting your borders, not leglislating against babies.

What abuse? I showed you already, using just one group. I will look more indepth later and give you a full round up of the scale of abuse because of this loophole.

Citizenship should not be awarded just for giving birth on Irish soil. To say otherwise is absurd. Citizenship has to be earned, it is the greatest gift and compliment the Irish state can bestow on a non national. The Irish people voted in their droves(79%) to change it, if you dont like it I am sorry, but that is democracy. Its a beautiful thing.

The system was being abused by people having anchor babies and gaining citizenship. It is unfortunate that legitimate cases like yourself are being hurt by the change in legislation.

Just to put some perspective on the scale of abuse, a recent article on immigration understates the problem with Nigerian immigration and social welfare benefits.
According to the Department of Trades records, 332 work permits were granted to Nigerians over the years while fewer than 150 were granted refugee status during the same period by the minister for justice.


Stated Government policy and Irish immigration law prohibits the payment of welfare benefits to non-EU nationals, other than those granted refugee status. That, in effect, means the maximum number of Nigerians eligible to claim welfare benefits here is 150.


A massive number of Nigerians have immigrated to Ireland. The previous Minister for Justice stated that no amnesty was to be granted to these people, yet a scheme was designed to allow them remain in Ireland called the IBC/05 scheme.


This scheme granted the right of full welfare benefits to these immigrants.


Those who came to Ireland may, if they so choose, claim unemployment and rental accommodation payments and all other welfare benefits including medical cards.


In effect, the scheme created a new category of immigrant, one that has no lawful basis. Thousands of Nigerian immigrants have never worked in Ireland, yet the Irish taxpayer has to pay for them for the rest of their natural lives.


The IBC/05 scheme was grafted on to existing immigration law, even though no legislation for the provision of welfare benefits to illegal immigrants exists. No Bill to accommodate it was brought before the Oireachtas and no vote on this scheme was ever taken even though it requires a massive diversion of publicly raised funds destined for other purposes and voted on by Dail Eireann.


The scheme was implemented in January 2005. More illegal immigrants were granted leave to remain here under this scheme then than the combined total of legal immigrants granted work permits from non-EU countries over the past four years.


Some 23,178 Nigerians are registered with the Department of social welfare. How is this number possible?


Extrapolating from the figures published last week Nigerians alone are receiving a minimum of €100m in benefits per year. This figure is likely much higher.


The scale of the problem is apparent to ordinary Irish people.


The regulation and enforcement of immigration law and policies is currently in a state of anarchy. Resentment of this injustice against the Irish people is ignored by the political establishment and allowed to fester.

Oh and by the way nobody was given an invitation by the Irish people to come here, they choose to off their own free will. Stop peddling lies.