Immigration.

af_thefragile

Lets get real here.
We've had a lot of people complaining about the growing number of immigrants in Ireland who wanna hammer down on it and we've had people who wanna let loose the border gates.

So here's the question and debate.
Is immigration a growing concern in Ireland?
If so how do you reckon we deal with it?

A serious discussion about the prospects of immigration in this country.

How is immigration affecting Ireland.
Is it putting excessive pressure on the welfare system?
Is it reducing the job opportunities in the country?
What other risks does the growing amount of immigration pose to the country...?

Questions that are at the back of most people's mind here. I think its about time we start speaking about them and discussing them clearly.



I believe immigration is normally very healthy to the country. Afterall this world belongs to everyone and we shouldn't restrict anyone from going to anywhere. Immigration also brings in revenue and much needed workforce to a country during normal healthy economic times. But right now things are different. The economy is in peril. But do you think cuz of that we should stop letting people from other places enter into this country?
Its a tough question to answer.
But i believe we shouldn't stop immigration. But regulate jobs more efficiently. If there are no job prospects in the country, like during these tough times, there would be little or no initiative for immigrants to immigrate to this country. Hence that could solve the problem itself without us needed to do anything much about it.
But thats just my opinion.

Permabear

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PrivateEye

The 'Immigration Control Platform' poll less than 2%, have not got a single council seat, have not got a single T.D, and could hold their National Conference in a phone-booth.

They insist immigration is the "elephant in the room" :rolleyes:

Permabear

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cm2000

donegalfella wrote: »

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Too right, if you get rid of social welfare, then immigration would be self regulating if it was completely open.

lmtduffy

donegalfella wrote: »

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Who are you referring to as being able to stroll into the country and automatically receive benefits?

lmtduffy

cm2000 wrote: »

Too right, if you get rid of social welfare, then immigration would be self regulating if it was completely open.

There is no empirical proof for welfare systems having a pull factor for immigrants.

civildefence

PrivateEye wrote: »

The 'Immigration Control Platform' poll less than 2%, have not got a single council seat, have not got a single T.D, and could hold their National Conference in a phone-booth.

They insist immigration is the "elephant in the room" :rolleyes:

I'd say a big reason for this is people don't want to support this movement because of it's BNP-like ethos, probably for fear of being branded a racist.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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...which, seeing as it isn't true, really doesn't matter a rats ass now, does it? The vast vast majority who came here were from Eastern Europe, and were and are perfectly entitled to. They are not eligible for anything unless they've worked here two years, and then its the stamps, not the dole......

P. Breathnach

civildefence wrote: »

I'd say a big reason for this is people don't want to support this movement because of it's BNP-like ethos, probably for fear of being branded a racist.

Not quite. The support for "nasty" parties is sometimes understated in opinion polls because people can be a little ashamed or embarrassed about saying where they stand. That's because they are saying it to one person, the pollster.

In the voting booth, however, they have no such inhibition.

I think that far more than 2% of our population have some xenophobic leanings, and some of those people focus particularly of people of different pigmentation. But for many, whatever xenophobic or racist sentiment they hold is not top of their agenda, and they will still vote for candidates who are not advancing anti-immigrant policies.

djpbarry

Nodin wrote: »

The vast vast majority who came here were from Eastern Europe...

Were they? I'd be very suprised if the vast majority (>80% ?) of immigrants in Ireland are from Eastern Europe.

Speaking of which, what constitutes "Eastern Europe" anyway? It’s a term that gets thrown around an awful lot these days without having a specific meaning.

ionix5891

djpbarry wrote: »

Were they? I'd be very suprised if the vast majority (>80% ?) of immigrants in Ireland are from Eastern Europe.

Speaking of which, what constitutes "Eastern Europe" anyway? It’s a term that gets thrown around an awful lot these days without having a specific meaning.

them nicer looking people

Nodin

djpbarry wrote: »

Were they? I'd be very suprised if the vast majority (>80% ?) of immigrants in Ireland are from Eastern Europe.

Speaking of which, what constitutes "Eastern Europe" anyway? It’s a term that gets thrown around an awful lot these days without having a specific meaning.

"Vast" may have been overstating the case, as I forgot to think of the Chinese. However.....

62,00 - 200,000 Poles
100,000 Lithuanians
20,000 Latvians
12-13,000 Romanians
5,000 Moldovans
2,000 or so Estonians

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/23/AR2007102302162_pf.html
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/08/27/story218150.asp
http://latviansonline.com/index.php/commentary/article/1253/
http://www.moldova.ie/About_Us.html

Riskymove

djpbarry wrote: »

Were they? I'd be very suprised if the vast majority (>80% ?) of immigrants in Ireland are from Eastern Europe.

Speaking of which, what constitutes "Eastern Europe" anyway? It’s a term that gets thrown around an awful lot these days without having a specific meaning.

As I see it when people say Eastern European with regard to immigrants they mean both EU (polish etc) and non-EU (Russian etc) although entitlements are different

according to Census 2006 there were 419,733 non-Irish in Ireland

112k - UK
163k - Rest of EU
24k - Rest of Europe
35k - Africa
46k - Asian
21k - American
16k - other
45k - Not-stated

Even allowing for the not-stated Its clear EU makes up most of the number (275k)

Of course these are population figures so we don't know how many are here as immigrants or asylum seekers etc

djpbarry

Nodin wrote: »

"Vast" may have been overstating the case, as I forgot to think of the Chinese. However.....
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/23/AR2007102302162_pf.html
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/08/27/story218150.asp
http://latviansonline.com/index.php/commentary/article/1253/
http://www.moldova.ie/About_Us.html

I’d be reluctant to use sources other than the official census figures; granted, they’re not perfect, but they’re the best we have. Many of the figures given for numbers of foreign nationals in Ireland have absolutely no basis, such as Conor Lenihan’s claim that there may be as many as 200,000 Poles resident in the state. Yes, there may be Conor, but we have absolutely no evidence to support this claim. Personally, I find it hard to believe that the census would underestimate the numbers of one particular nationality so drastically.

So, according to the census figures, Eastern Europeans (nationals of Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia and Ukraine) made up just over 32% of the total number of non-Irish people resident in the state in 2006.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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So you aren't really interested in talking about immigration, just the hardy perennial that is 'bogus asylum seekers'?

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

So, according to the census figures, Eastern Europeans (nationals of Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia and Ukraine) made up just over 32% of the total number of non-Irish people resident in the state in 2006.

How long did it take for them to reach 32% of the total non-Irish population? For how many years before the 2006 census did we have large-scale immigration from eastern Europe?

Permabear

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af_thefragile

Well, to bring this tread back to its topic.

I started thread after i ended up having a little discussion with a couple of BNP supporters who were going on about how immigration has ruined britain. It has increased the crime rater and ruined the economy. They said many stupid racist things like correlation between how **** a country is and how many "non-whites" are in it, society is a racial construct and all. They also love to go on about the "look at pictures of london before and after immigration" crap.

Then there were a few points that got me thinking... like the reverse-racism in Britain, how the working class in Britain feel defranchised.
And if any of that could creep over the pond into Ireland too...

So is there really a problem with immigration in this country?
If so what is the problem we're having with imigration?
Is it just a clash of cultures and society or is it plain xenophobia and racism?
Or is it because of the economical and criminal implications??

Or is all of it just some cooked up crap by people like the ones in the BNP to incite people into supporting their ideology??

Joe C

lmtduffy wrote: »

There is no empirical proof for welfare systems having a pull factor for immigrants.

It seems to have one for asylum seekers - when we cut the entitlement to child benefit for asylum seekers the numbers claiming asylum here halved from one year to the next.

af_thefragile

donegalfella wrote: »

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True.

Why do the assylum seekers come to Ireland rather than going to somewhere like China or Russia??

Cuz they wouldn't get **** in those countries.
They come to Ireland cuz they get social welfare here, free healthcare here, free education here and all those things.

Take those things away and you'ld only be left with the people who come here looking to contribute with some skilled labour bringing in revenue and skill labour to the country.

jdivision

Source? Year?

Joe C

jdivision wrote: »

Source? Year?

ORAC statistics. 2003/2004

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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As they are a minority of immigrants overall, I fail to see why we should focus on them.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Whats the topic about?

What percentage of the total number of immigrants are Asylum seekers?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

As they are a minority of immigrants overall, I fail to see why we should focus on them.

Have you ever read the Irish Times or watched RTE present anything to do with immigration?

Which do do you think would receive most hits on a Google search - Chinese in Ireland or Pamela Izevbekhai?

I think the media obsession with contrived asylum applicants (almost invariably Nigerian) and their faux outrage at their less than beaten down treatment has had the effect of promoting a lingering resentment, that has tainted immigration in general.

It has also hampered legitimate and belated attempts to put manners on a clearly broken system so that we can sort out this absurd "asylum seeking" mess, firmly and fairly and also take the neccessary steps to ensure that legal immigration is finally managed with the blessing of Irish people and for the good of Irish people.

Permabear

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Joe C

donegalfella wrote: »

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Where did you get the €300m figure from? I think it's a bit low.

And I take it you're not saying that all asylum seekers are actually economic migrants ? The vast majority are, but there are some genuine cases too.

Permabear

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lmtduffy

Joe C wrote: »

It seems to have one for asylum seekers - when we cut the entitlement to child benefit for asylum seekers the numbers claiming asylum here halved from one year to the next.

an actual link, would save us some time.

deadhead13

There were 4,790 applications for asylum last year. Of which 1,465 were granted. This is only slightly higher than the EU average. In the grand scheme of things I don't see it to be a major problem.

Zambia

Hmm you see here is the thing I would not consider anyone from the EC a migrant anymore than someone from cork living in Dublin. In essence you(An irish national) can live in any of the EC source countries and work and stay as long as you want.

Pre 2006 we badly needed these workers to help us build houses for each other and sell them at over inflated prices and to fill jobs that employers badly needed people to fill. They are not entitled to benefits for the first two years so they are no drain on the economy. Often if they do not find work they go to the UK or back home.

I will admit I had reservations about the amount of foriegn reg low insured or none insured vehicles but in essence as usual. Our own politicans did not draft any legislation to address the issue as they so often dont. Ergo the police could not tackle it. So it was irelands fault more the the new arrivals.

In light of Non EC arrivals yes we all read the official figures on asylum seekers and they are low but the average man on the street has been given no explanation as to why there has been such a change in the demographic of Dublin and other areas. So he/she resorts to the only answer they have they must be asylum seekers.

Legislation would not be this lax if by law new AS had to live in suburbs where TDs live. You see the people who decide that there is no change in the demgraphic or that "people" should be more welcoming are often the people most removed from it.

So I would say Ireland has had no real mass immigration it has had an expansion of its economic borders and a failure to address or clarify its own Asylum policy. In fact I would sum up the irish goverments attitude to migration as the following.

"Sure it will be grand"

However the policy was widely in use in most areas...

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Roughly.....How much do they constitute as a percentage, over the last 10-15 years? If you're that concerned, surely you know....?

oscarBravo

Let me lay down a clear marker here: on this forum, we draw a clear distinction between asylum seekers, refugees (asylum seekers who have been successful in their application), and immigrants.

The thread topic is "immigrants". Any discussion of asylum seekers or refugees is off-topic.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

How long did it take for them to reach 32% of the total non-Irish population?

Don't know.

O'Morris wrote: »

For how many years before the 2006 census did we have large-scale immigration from eastern Europe?

Don't know. What's your point?

Joe C

oscarBravo wrote: »

Let me lay down a clear marker here: on this forum, we draw a clear distinction between asylum seekers, refugees (asylum seekers who have been successful in their application), and immigrants.

The thread topic is "immigrants". Any discussion of asylum seekers or refugees is off-topic.

I think your distinction is a false one.

If the dictionary definition of an immigrant is : "a person who comes to a country where they were not born in order to settle there" , then a good chunk of asylum seekers fit into the category.

oscarBravo

Consider it an arbitrary distinction, so. It's still the distinction by which this forum is moderated.

Back on topic.

Black Swan

af_thefragile wrote: »

Is immigration a growing concern in Ireland?

Yes, for the past 2000 years, starting with late 4th Century arrival of Christians like Palladius, then early 5th Century St Paddy, causing a real concern among us pagans! Now don't mention the Vikings or Brits, along with a host of others since!;)

Joe C

oscarBravo wrote: »

Consider it an arbitrary distinction, so. It's still the distinction by which this forum is moderated.

Back on topic.

I'll still consider it a false distinction to be honest.

Anyway to get back on topic, nobody has mentioned how the student visa system has been used to get a lot of non EU citizens into the work force.

It's another route used to get around the normal work visa system.

Zambia is correct, there's absolutely no policy in place when it comes to Immigration.

markopantelic

I would like to see more immigration of families. I think perhaps in 10 years time we will have to write up our immigration proposals, and by that time there could be a 'blue card' EU wide immigration system, like the green card in usa.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

Don't know. What's your point?

I was responding to your point that east Europeans only made up 32% of the total non-national population. I think it's worth remembering that the 2006 census was carried out just over two years after large-scale immigration from eastern Europe into this country began. That such a rapid growth in our non-national population could have occurred in the space of just over two years goes to show that what we've had in this country over the last few years has been mass immigration. There's no other term for it.

Question for you old horse, if the Eastern Europeans made up 32% of the total immigrant population after just two years and if it has been over 2 years since the last census, what should we expect their current percentage to be? Isn't there reason to assume that the 32% figure might be a bit out of date?

Dan Akroyd

oscarBravo wrote: »

Consider it an arbitrary distinction, so. It's still the distinction by which this forum is moderated.

Back on topic.

Were you born a complete and utter arsehole or did you have to work on it?

oscarBravo

Dan Akroyd wrote: »

Were you born a complete and utter arsehole or did you have to work on it?

Why don't you spend your month's holiday from this forum trying to figure that out for yourself?

IIMII

O'Morris wrote: »

For how many years before the 2006 census did we have large-scale immigration from eastern Europe?

May 2004 was the East Europeans, Romanians / Albanians / Nigerians 1999 to 2005.

deadhead13

O'Morris wrote: »

I was responding to your point that east Europeans only made up 32% of the total non-national population. I think it's worth remembering that the 2006 census was carried out just over two years after large-scale immigration from eastern Europe into this country began. That such a rapid growth in our non-national population could have occurred in the space of just over two years goes to show that what we've had in this country over the last few years has been mass immigration. There's no other term for it.

Question for you old horse, if the Eastern Europeans made up 32% of the total immigrant population after just two years and if it has been over 2 years since the last census, what should we expect their current percentage to be? Isn't there reason to assume that the 32% figure might be a bit out of date?

In 2008 there was a 55%, 43%, 40% and 36% drop in PPS numbers issued to Romanians, Polish, Lithuanian and Solvakians repectively. The general trend is the rate of immigrants entering the country is decreasing and those leaving is increasing. This can only have excelerated in the past 6 months and I see no reason for it to change until the upturn in the economy begins.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/100000-workers-leave-ireland-as-pressure-on-jobs-grows-1587316.html

markopantelic

yeah if i was a citizen of th eu and moved here, had no hopes i'd be straight down to the south of spain, no problem lol

djpbarry

Joe C wrote: »

…there's absolutely no policy in place when it comes to Immigration.

The recent changes to eligibility for work permits would seem to suggest otherwise.

O'Morris wrote: »

Isn't there reason to assume that the 32% figure might be a bit out of date?

Maybe, but they’re still the most accurate figures that we have at our disposal.

esharknz

I think some people should actually see how hard it is to get a work permit before they start spouting off that it's easy!