Dog snapped at me when eating

sorella

So rude! :mad:

bushy... wrote: »

It'd be more you know what your doing , its cr@p like this :




that causes neighbours/visitors kids to get attacked by

sorella

I was thinking about this today.

Of the kind of "perfection" we expect of our dogs?

My wee one has off days; she gets a bit moody and sad. She is not a machine after all.

Just now they are both affected by the heat .

A wee bit snappy with each other. They are both dogs with thick coats.

So here is this dog; usually good mannered, well trained, and suddenly for one small lapse?

There was no real aggression; just some slightly atypical behaviour? In hot weather.

And his whole world caves in.

Would my dogs give up their food or plate? I would never ask; it is given to them. As one has said, I do not see the need for that utter degree of dominance.

peasant is right here. Bravo!

enda1

sorella wrote: »

So rude! :mad:

Harsh but fair.

If people treat dogs like equal, then they will treat us like equal.

sorella

Ae exaggerated quantum leap from this small incident.

If we treat them like dogs and not people?

enda1 wrote: »

Harsh but fair.

If people treat dogs like equal, then they will treat us like equal.

bigeasyeah

One of the first thing I was taught about handling dogs was never to mess around with them whilst eating.Dogs are natural hunters so its normal for them to be protective of food.
I had a bitch once,great temperment but you could just tell she didnt want anyone at her whilst eating.Come to think of it,Im the same way:)

peasant

bushy... wrote: »

It'd be more you know what your doing , its cr@p like this :

that causes neighbours/visitors kids to get attacked

Oh yeah ?

Isn't it more likely the "hard" men and women who rule their dogs with dominance and fear that cause them to attack?

I know my dogs, with all their strenghts and weaknesses. I respect and I protect them.
That does include respecting their privacy in important (to them) moments like feeding. I know that they see me as their leader, I don't have to force it down their throats (literally) while they're enyoing a bit of a treat.
But being their leader also carries some responsibility. For example keeping away pesky children while my dogs are feeding (or not feeding them in the first place when those children are around)

This whole "my dog knows it's place in the pack" - talk is delusional IMO.
Of course you need to teach the dog rules and "manners", but at the end of the day, a dog is a dog, a predatory animal, driven by instincts. No manner of "showing it its place" will drive that out of it.
Worst case scenario you make the dog insecure and afraid and if it should happen to lash out then, it will do so in a manner that will certainly draw blood. Not against you, of course, but against a third party that it considers weaker....the neighbours kid, for example.

My dogs have learned that no harm comes to them from humans ...not from me and not from others because I will not allow it. This is why they trust not just me but other people as well and really are the most mild mannered dogs you could ever meet.
I don't have to prove that to myself by taking away their treats. :P

Outkast_IRE

Iv had dogs my whole life all different breeds . Iv only ever had one snap at me concerning food and basically its unacceptable behaviour , thats the dog saying im the leader dont touch my food .
My reaction was to grab the dog and in one swift action push in to the floor expose its belly and have a hand around their neck , do this in a stern action but obviously dont hurt the dog theirs no need they understand pretty quickly whos boss after that.
Why do i do this? because in the wild this is how a pack leader would make another dog understand .
Every other dog iv owned would never snap and i can trust with kids no problem becuase they understand snapping or any form or biting is not acceptable unless its with a play toy.

peasant

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Why do i do this? because in the wild this is how a pack leader would make another dog understand .

Errr, no ...

In the wild, this is how the pack leader would attempt to KILL the other dog.

The wildlife shots that you see on telly where one dog (or wolf) is on its back, exposing its belly to the leader came about because the other dog is doing so by itself. Its called ritualised submissive behaviour.

bushy...

sorella wrote: »

My wee one has off days; she gets a bit moody and sad. She is not a machine after all.
Just now they are both affected by the heat .
A wee bit snappy with each other. They are both dogs with thick coats.

Almost everything is unhappy when its excessively warm , that's perfectly understandable.

sorella wrote: »

So rude! :mad:

How else could I put it ?

Its not a personal attack.

Bad enough having your own dogs like that if they are in public places without passing on the advice through a post.

I think a lot of the attacks on kids by dogs they were playing with a few minutes before are food related.
Kids visit say grandparents for a day , get a few sweets , drop one near their dog , go to pick it up etc etc --- very realistic scenario.

peasant

bushy... wrote: »

Bad enough having your own dogs like that if they are in public places

When my dogs are in public places they are under my control at all times. I keep them on a lead and I control who they have access to and who has access to them and in what way.

bushy... wrote: »

I think a lot of the attacks on kids by dogs they were playing with a few minutes before are food related.
Kids visit say grandparents for a day , get a few sweets , drop one near their dog , go to pick it up etc etc --- very realistic scenario.

One word ...supervision!


That scenario painted above could just as well happen with a dog that allows YOU to take away its food at any time. Just because YOU can do it does not mean anyone can ...don't delude yourself there.
There is no such thing as a perfectly safe dog. The sooner you realise that and act accordingly, the better.

bushy...

peasant wrote: »

Oh yeah ?

Isn't it more likely the "hard" men and women who rule their dogs with dominance and fear that cause them to attack?

Nothing to do with being "hard" or remotely cruel at all.

peasant wrote: »

I know my dogs, with all their strenghts and weaknesses. I respect and I protect them.
That does include respecting their privacy in important (to them) moments like feeding. I know that they see me as their leader, I don't have to force it down their throats (literally) while they're enyoing a bit of a treat.
But being their leader also carries some responsibility. For example keeping away pesky children while my dogs are feeding (or not feeding them in the first place when those children are around)

No-one is saying to annoy the hell out of them everytime you feed them.

peasant wrote: »

This whole "my dog knows it's place in the pack" - talk is delusional IMO.
Of course you need to teach the dog rules and "manners", but at the end of the day, a dog is a dog, a predatory animal, driven by instincts. No manner of "showing it its place" will drive that out of it.
Worst case scenario you make the dog insecure and afraid and if it should happen to lash out then, it will do so in a manner that will certainly draw blood. Not against you, of course, but against a third party that it considers weaker....the neighbours kid, for example.

What is all that about ?

Nothing to do with

peasant wrote: »

"showing it its place"

That just shows poor grasp of it all imo.

Much more to do with making the dog well aware that there is no need to panic or attack if someone takes food away from them.

peasant wrote: »

My dogs have learned that no harm comes to them from humans ...not from me and not from others because I will not allow it. This is why they trust not just me but other people as well and really are the most mild mannered dogs you could ever meet.
I don't have to prove that to myself by taking away their treats. :P

Like I said , its far from a personal attack .
That line plus the peculiar use of a smiley makes me think you see this as some sort of attack on your authoitaaaay over your dogs.

peasant

bushy... wrote: »

That just shows poor grasp of it all imo.

Ok ...so maybe I misunderstood.

Kindly explain then how you go about to ensure that your dog will never, ever bite anyone that disturbs it while its eating a particularly juicy bone that you just gave to it a few minutes ago?

Outkast_IRE

peasant wrote: »

Errr, no ...

In the wild, this is how the pack leader would attempt to KILL the other dog.

The wildlife shots that you see on telly where one dog (or wolf) is on its back, exposing its belly to the leader came about because the other dog is doing so by itself. Its called ritualised submissive behaviour.

Yes exactly ritualised submissive behaviour and if the dog does not does not submit, which is what happens when a dog snaps at you it is then no longer submissive . In any pack most battles are never fought tooth and nail , however in a pack if a lower member attacks then it can only be responded to with a quick blunt response otherwise he has just asserted his dominance over you.

bushy...

peasant wrote: »

Ok ...so maybe I misunderstood.

Apologies if you did , I should have tidied it up before i posted.

peasant wrote: »

Kindly explain then how you go about to ensure that your dog will never, ever bite anyone that disturbs it while its eating a particularly juicy bone that you just gave to it a few minutes ago?

In the same way you can never,ever be sure that it won't be your kid who says " I don't like Mondays, this livens up the day " , you can't.

I'm very sure there are other/better ways but anyway has worked for me/us :
(expect to be bitten ) first time you give them a juicy bone ( not every time or you'd deserve to eaten for being a PITA ) , go down and take it off them after a while.
If they go nuts when they get chicken or something , break it in small pieces and feed them by hand nice and slowly but without annoying them . Seems like you have to do this every now n again or they forget.

I don't see it as trying to control every area of their lives , more reassuring them that there is a plentiful supply of food and no need to panic.

peasant

bushy... wrote: »

I'm very sure there are other/better ways but anyway has worked for me/us :
(expect to be bitten ) first time you give them a juicy bone ( not every time or you'd deserve to eaten for being a PITA ) , go down and take it off them after a while.
If they go nuts when they get chicken or something , break it in small pieces and feed them by hand nice and slowly but without annoying them . Seems like you have to do this every now n again or they forget.

I don't see it as trying to control every area of their lives , more reassuring them that there is a plentiful supply of food and no need to panic.

Yes, I see your point and a I agree (to a point) that training your dog to release food is a good idea.
Done right it will strengthen the trust between you and could lessen any possessivness issues the dog may have around food.

But it still is no guarantee that the dog won't snap at someone else when it is disturbed while feeding.

(not directed at you, bushy)
Done wrong however it could have the opposite effect. The dog may learn that it had better release its food to its dominant owner/handler (because said owner has driven home that message forcefully several times) but with the wrong dog it may also strengthen its resolve to not give in to anyone else. One of the effects of constantly driving home the dominance message is that while the dog may accept that it isn't "top dog" it may also resolve to be at least second in command ...and the day will come when it can prove just that to some unsuspecting stranger or the neighbours kid. (and it wont stop at just a warning growl or a little nip)

Whispered

peasant wrote: »

Ok ...so maybe I misunderstood.

Kindly explain then how you go about to ensure that your dog will never, ever bite anyone that disturbs it while its eating a particularly juicy bone that you just gave to it a few minutes ago?

But what if you DONT give it the bone. Or if a particulary silly guest throws the dog something you usually don't allow it to have. I completly understand what you are saying about not needing to assert dominence, but don't you think it's wise to have the dog at the level where if you need to remove something from his mouth you can? (not just for the sake of it)

EDIT: I just saw your above post. ^^

sorella

That is a different scenario from routine feeding though.

Most will respond to emergency commands.

helena.ryan wrote: »

But what if you DONT give it the bone. Or if a particulary silly guest throws the dog something you usually don't allow it to have. I completly understand what you are saying about not needing to assert dominence, but don't you think it's wise to have the dog at the level where if you need to remove something from his mouth you can? (not just for the sake of it)

EDIT: I just saw your above post. ^^

Whispered

sorella wrote: »

That is a different scenario from routine feeding though.

Most will respond to emergency commands.

But how do you know? You need to be sure the dog will respond to an emergency command by training it to do so.

I know that if needs be Harley will drop food should I tell him too. It came in handy yesterday evening with a bone I had accidently left out in the heat. But he wouldn't drop it had he not been trained to drop it.

luckat

NeilW, a question: how did the dog behave after the snap? Was she obviously completely embarrassed, or did she look annoyed?

And an answer, well, a two-part thought, anyway.

1) Dominance doesn't mean bullying - it means that your dog looks to you as her leader and protector and guide. You've obviously set this up nicely.

2) I trained my dog to sit and wait when her food was put down, and only eat when I invited her to. This wasn't dominance and it wasn't cruelty - it was because my parents, when old, had a rowdy young dog who knocked them off their feet rushing for food, and it was dangerous. I also trained her to take treats gently from my fingers.

Usually when I put her food down, we do a bit of a game - I fill the food (dry food) into the bowl, then take one extra piece and give it to her with my fingers, or throw it for her to snap up in mid-air. It's kind of a jokey dance between us.

I wouldn't just pick up her dish when she was at it, though, I think - I'd say to her: "Leave" or "Give", so she'd know to stand back for me to take it.

helimachoptor

peasant wrote: »

Yes, I see your point and a I agree (to a point) that training your dog to release food is a good idea.
Done right it will strengthen the trust between you and could lessen any possessivness issues the dog may have around food.

But it still is no guarantee that the dog won't snap at someone else when it is disturbed while feeding.

(not directed at you, bushy)
Done wrong however it could have the opposite effect. The dog may learn that it had better release its food to its dominant owner/handler (because said owner has driven home that message forcefully several times) but with the wrong dog it may also strengthen its resolve to not give in to anyone else. One of the effects of constantly driving home the dominance message is that while the dog may accept that it isn't "top dog" it may also resolve to be at least second in command ...and the day will come when it can prove just that to some unsuspecting stranger or the neighbours kid. (and it wont stop at just a warning growl or a little nip)

Again I would agree to a point regarding this. Firstly the dog is mine, I mostly feed him, give him water etc. He gets treats from me and only me. For example Pedigree jumbones are his favourite and he is like a child when he sees the wrapper. However I can take this away when I want. Now its something I've done maybe once or twice. My GF would never attempt this or moving his normal food bowl while feeding as she would be worried what would happen.

Now I had a few GSDs when I was younger and obviously I would never try this then as they could have eaten me! But now I am his owner, I love him, I have never hit him, runned his nose in his s**t etc. He knows i'm angry if I raise my voice and thats enough for him to realise that I'm unhappy.

Also due to the sheer size of my dog many people wont go near him never mind attempt to feed him! But some do and its not a problem.

Finally I think that once you have a loving relationship with your dog and it respects you growling etc wont happen.

Not once has my dog barked, nipped, tried to bite me even once when I stood on his foot in size 11 work boots

helimachoptor

helena.ryan wrote: »

But how do you know? You need to be sure the dog will respond to an emergency command by training it to do so.

I know that if needs be Harley will drop food should I tell him too. It came in handy yesterday evening with a bone I had accidently left out in the heat. But he wouldn't drop it had he not been trained to drop it.

My dog is not trained to drop food but if he is eating and I call him he will come to me. Even if its just for a big hug then he goes on back to his bowl.

Whispered

helimachoptor wrote: »

My dog is not trained to drop food but if he is eating and I call him he will come to me. Even if its just for a big hug then he goes on back to his bowl.

Isn't that the same thing?

helimachoptor

helena.ryan wrote: »

Isn't that the same thing?

I just mean in relation to the "emergency commands"

If i call he'll come over because he wants a hug etc not because he's ordered to leave his food.

faceman

I disagree with much of the dominance messages being portrayed here but obviously without knowing the OP and the dog, I cant speak directly about them but here is my 2c anyway.

When a dog is eating, if he growls as you approach it possible that he is fearful that his meal will be taken away. Dont forget that in the wild, dogs would have had to fight with siblings at mealtimes to be fed.

By disciplining the dog when they do this, (e.g. taking the bowl away or spraying him etc) you are actually reinforcing the dog's belief that yes, if a human approaches, the human will interfere at mealtime. Its going to be a very hard thing to reeducate the dog on and ultimately when you do, the dog will only obey because it is afraid of the discipline rather than the dog changing their habits pro actively.

It also then runs the risk of when a dog is sick or if a child approaches the dog when eating, it may not see the threat and therefore snap etc.

The poster who suggested the switching bowl idea, that was a good one. What i would do is when approaching a dog who growls, add food to its bowl or even leave extra food beside the bowl.
That way the dog is being training that a person approaching isnt a threat to the dog.

Whispered

helimachoptor wrote: »

I just mean in relation to the "emergency commands"
.

Oh sorry I see what you mean. Although I do think it's similar. Harley would leave his food when "ordered", not because he has a great respect for me, but because he usually gets something nice in return. The basis of most training really. For harley his "something nice" is a game or a treat. He's not the cuddly type when he's up and about. Energy to burn. (I'm currently trying to find ways to calm him actually).

EDIT: This is something we had to work on by the way. I don't think it comes naturally for a dog to give up it's food. He's showing agression when another dog is in the room when he is eating or if one of my cats come into the room. For me, this is unacceptable and will also have to be worked on.