TIME FOR A REVOLUTION

EnigmasWhisper

Isn’t it time the Irish people took back their country from these liars and gangsters in Dail Eireann. They have consistently failed the Irish people and in my view are enemies of us all. Why are we tolerating this, what has happened to the people we once were? There is an anger today that I have not seen in a very long time on this island, but anger is not enough. What this country needs is a new Political party, a new voice, an honesty and a movement of people that will reclaim our country from these Bas**ards. Our health system is in shambles, our Legal system is an outdated joke, our economy is in tatters, and our educational system is crumbling. We tolerate this while these bas*tards treat us like FOOLS !!!!!!! Its time for a change, I’m as angry as hell and I know I’m not alone in wanting change. Change wont come from FG, Labour or any of the other pretenders . . . we must change it ourselves, demand it, it’s our right !!!!! HOW LONG MORE SHALL WE ACCEPT IT ??????

Darragh29

Another 4 billion for Anglo after their announcement this afternoon. Mugs mugs mugs, that's what we all are.

Benedict XVI

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Isn’t it time the Irish people took back their country from these liars and gangsters in Dail Eireann. They have consistently failed the Irish people and in my view are enemies of us all. Why are we tolerating this, what has happened to the people we once were? There is an anger today that I have not seen in a very long time on this island, but anger is not enough. What this country needs is a new Political party, a new voice, an honesty and a movement of people that will reclaim our country from these Bas**ards. Our health system is in shambles, our Legal system is an outdated joke, our economy is in tatters, and our educational system is crumbling. We tolerate this while these bas*tards treat us like FOOLS !!!!!!! Its time for a change, I’m as angry as hell and I know I’m not alone in wanting change. Change wont come from FG, Labour or any of the other pretenders . . . we must change it ourselves, demand it, it’s our right !!!!! HOW LONG MORE SHALL WE ACCEPT IT ??????

Go ahead, start your own party.

Pity it's only a week to the local elections, if you got angry earlier you could have run for as an independent

loveissucide

Revolution=replacing the old boss with the new boss.We could allie ourselves with North Korea.

kevteljeur

You can change it. In the next election, in 3 year's time. I'm going to keep referring to this quote from George Bernard Shaw:

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve."

We, collectively and persistently, voted for the status quo. It has fluctuated, but by and large most people want Fianna Fail in power, or at least not any of the alternatives. It might have changed right now, but now is too late and they'll be in power for another 3 years or until the Green Party decides that they don't want to play any more. Then, and don't think that the man on the street will have any say in the matter, any new government will organise itself from the existing parties and independent TDs. It may be Fine Gael and some other parties, it may be Fianna Fail and some other parties, but the common good won't come into it.

Don't think that it'll change the economic situation because it won't - it is now too late. We had our low taxes and tax breaks, our loan and mortage-based employment boom, and now it is finished. Even if you had your revolution, it wouldn't change anything in terms of your taxes or employment. The country costs too much, and has too much to pay back.


People are only unhappy now because the party is over. The corruption and shenanigans have been going on for decades and people didn't seem to pushed before now. Election results don't lie. If anyone has any realistic ideas on how things could be improved, let's hear them. A revolution doesn't solve anything.



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A Primal Nut

I am not a fan of Fianna Fail but ---

It is so easy for people to blame the recession on everything but themselves and try to find someone to blame. People were up to their arse in debt from owning a second house, two brand new cars, limos for the kids confirmation 3 holidays a year and all kinds of rediculous expenditure. Others made some rather silly investments and didn't get out before it all started to go wrong. Others demanded and expected to keep up the same lifestyle as everyone else if they were unemployed or had a kid. Now the arse falls out of the economy and nobody wants to pay for their own mistakes.

And yes, Fianna Fail and the bankers f*cked up too, but they aren't the only ones to blame.

ionix5891

yah revolutions worked out great in other countries thru' out history :cool:

djpbarry

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Our health system is in shambles, our Legal system is an outdated joke, our economy is in tatters, and our educational system is crumbling…

…and our posts are full of hyperbole!

You say you want a revolution, well, you know…

Small Change

You say you got a real solution, Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan.....

Niall Keane

Without revolutions we would still be owned by the regional lord. Granted a revolution is 360 degrees back to the same spot, but with different b@%?@#ds.
There has to be some satisfaction in striking back, I never was one for turning the other cheek. And sure we can do it all again, isn't that the function of revolution, to change the guard and prevent either a divine right of c*@Ts or perpetual slavery setting in? A true patriot fights his own corrupt government and all...

Setting up a simply "get them out" party online would be possible. The party could put forward persons who would refuse to participate in the Dail. Legal contracts in place to ensure this. TD salaries awarded for successful candidates could be directed to further fund the "party" No one once elected could do so again.
A great number of current politicians form all parties could have their seats wiped out, with a growing movement this would become more worrying for the remainder, so they would have to adjust their policies to take into account the people and not their own funding lobby groups.
This party could be kept in action, and corrupt officials could be targeted in election campaigns. This would leave some areas without representation for the duration of a Dail, but the threat of - it could be you next - might force those who managed to keep their seat to look after the non-represented area (smartly cutting numbers of politicians.)
In other words a lobby of dissent, to counter the other powerful lobbies. I think people are jaded because they don't see a choice, wouldn't an empty or "dumb" seat carry more weight than a spoilt vote?
E.g. We could have those who have lost their homes rent in the constituency of the minister for finance, or housing and wipe them out? Etc..

cls

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Isn’t it time the Irish people took back their country from these liars and gangsters in Dail Eireann. They have consistently failed the Irish people and in my view are enemies of us all. Why are we tolerating this, what has happened to the people we once were? There is an anger today that I have not seen in a very long time on this island, but anger is not enough. What this country needs is a new Political party, a new voice, an honesty and a movement of people that will reclaim our country from these Bas**ards. Our health system is in shambles, our Legal system is an outdated joke, our economy is in tatters, and our educational system is crumbling. We tolerate this while these bas*tards treat us like FOOLS !!!!!!! Its time for a change, I’m as angry as hell and I know I’m not alone in wanting change. Change wont come from FG, Labour or any of the other pretenders . . . we must change it ourselves, demand it, it’s our right !!!!! HOW LONG MORE SHALL WE ACCEPT IT ??????

You're about 10 years too late mate. I've been angry for a long time and have long since come to the conclusion that I live in a country full of ignoramouses. And yes, and that includes you and the "lets wait until the country falls apart before we voice our concerns" band wagon you're swinging out of.

kevteljeur

The Government are very, very unpopular right now because of the policies they've implemented. And by that I mean the budget, not the long term planning. By and large, nobody cared up until the wheels came off the economy, and then we all want change.

Nobody particularly wanted change while we were all earning plenty, borrowing more and paying very little in the way of taxes. That is the way here. Wait until it's all come apart and then demand change. No matter who we get in now, the taxes will remain as they are (if not higher) and unemployment will still be at 20% by the end of the year. It can't change because if it does we'll be even worse off.


I'm just so tired of the 'we demand change now, we're getting scr*wed!' rant. People should have demanded change beforehand, because the policies haven't changed in 20 years and we're just seeing the results now.



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Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dreamlogic

kevteljeur wrote: »

People are only unhappy now because the party is over. The corruption and shenanigans have been going on for decades and people didn't seem to pushed before now.

+1 The electorate is very conservative IMO. When things are going well, they ignore politics. It's only when things go wrong and they start to feel it in their day-to-day lives that they wake up. By then it seems too late so they're left feeling powerless overall to change anything and so the cycle of acceptance continues.

Election results don't lie.

I blame the media for the way they cover elections, interviews with politicians etc. It's like it's all a game for most of them. Interviewers should ask politicians tough questions and not let them get away with dodging the question.

If anyone has any realistic ideas on how things could be improved, let's hear them. A revolution doesn't solve anything.

I disagree that it's too late to get involved. The longer that attitude continues, the longer they'll continue getting away with being unaccountable.
I agree with the OP, it's time for people to demand that those who are elected are willing and able to do the job. It's not like we're not paying them a big enough salary!

A Primal Nut wrote:

It is so easy for people to blame the recession on everything but themselves and try to find someone to blame.

Why have leadership at all if it's a case of being better off ignoring them and doing all the research ourselves? People have jobs and families and are busy with their lives. The whole reason they elect leaders is to provide leadership! If they are encouraged by the government to spend and borrow, that this is good for the economy etc, it's really not fair to blame them for trusting in leadership is it!

dresden8

dreamlogic wrote: »

it's really not fair to blame them for trusting in leadership is it!

Yes. Especially when that leadership is FF.

Let's face it, brown envelopes and dodgy money didn't only come out in the last 18 months or so.

Those people who "trusted" put thieves in charge of our money and our future and now are outraged that thieves are stealing our money.

Grow up.

dreamlogic

dresden8 wrote: »

Yes. Especially when that leadership is FF.

Let's face it, brown envelopes and dodgy money didn't only come out in the last 18 months or so.

Those people who "trusted" put thieves in charge of our money and our future and now are outraged that thieves are stealing our money.

Grow up.

You cannot blame the masses for trusting in what the leadership of the country is telling them. Most people are busy with their lives. This is why they elect a government, to manage the country and guide them in the right direction. Otherwise why have a government? And why have them appearing on tv making speeches and all the rest of it when either they are lying to people, or they are incompetent and don't know what they're talking about in the first place?
We'd be better off without any government if this is how it has to be!

Keano

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I am not a fan of Fianna Fail but ---

It is so easy for people to blame the recession on everything but themselves and try to find someone to blame. People were up to their arse in debt from owning a second house, two brand new cars, limos for the kids confirmation 3 holidays a year and all kinds of rediculous expenditure. Others made some rather silly investments and didn't get out before it all started to go wrong. Others demanded and expected to keep up the same lifestyle as everyone else if they were unemployed or had a kid. Now the arse falls out of the economy and nobody wants to pay for their own mistakes.

And yes, Fianna Fail and the bankers f*cked up too, but they aren't the only ones to blame.

I have to agree with most of your post but FF were in power and have to shoulder most of the blame, they are if you like the managers of all the banks, all the sitting bank managers during the boom are gone and now the people will decide it is time for FF to step down.

mega man

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Isn’t it time the Irish people took back their country from these liars and gangsters in Dail Eireann. They have consistently failed the Irish people and in my view are enemies of us all. Why are we tolerating this, what has happened to the people we once were? There is an anger today that I have not seen in a very long time on this island, but anger is not enough. What this country needs is a new Political party, a new voice, an honesty and a movement of people that will reclaim our country from these Bas**ards. Our health system is in shambles, our Legal system is an outdated joke, our economy is in tatters, and our educational system is crumbling. We tolerate this while these bas*tards treat us like FOOLS !!!!!!! Its time for a change, I’m as angry as hell and I know I’m not alone in wanting change. Change wont come from FG, Labour or any of the other pretenders . . . we must change it ourselves, demand it, it’s our right !!!!! HOW LONG MORE SHALL WE ACCEPT IT ??????

I agree, this government should be ousted. But i don't think there is any other party suitable to run the country. There all the same. there should be laws past for a council to be set up to monitor the government so this crap never happens again.
Look at Bertie Ahearn. We spent millions on tribunerals and nothing came of them. NO MORE WE WILL WE STAND AND BE MADE A JOKE OF!!! THIS ENDS NOW!
:mad::mad::mad:

ionix5891

yay we need anarchy :eek: (just baiting)

kevteljeur

mega man wrote: »

I agree, this government should be ousted. But i don't think there is any other party suitable to run the country. There all the same. there should be laws past for a council to be set up to monitor the government so this crap never happens again.
Look at Bertie Ahearn. We spent millions on tribunerals and nothing came of them. NO MORE WE WILL WE STAND AND BE MADE A JOKE OF!!! THIS ENDS NOW!
:mad::mad::mad:

It only ends if the man elected as Taoiseach no longer commands a majority. If the government holds, then you can change it in the next election, in 3 year's time. And then the likelihood of the general public developing a collective, conscious will between now and then is very small.

So, let's say we can vote in whoever we want tomorrow. Will that change any of the taxation policies or the reality of hitting 20% unemployment by the end of the year? It won't, and you'll only see change by the time of the next election. In the meantime, whoever has been in charge will be held responsible for the hardship up until then. And then the opposition get re-elected. That's what happened the last time.



.

thebman

kevteljeur wrote: »

I'm just so tired of the 'we demand change now, we're getting scr*wed!' rant. People should have demanded change beforehand, because the policies haven't changed in 20 years and we're just seeing the results now.



.

Yeah I wish we were more like America or Britain :P

dresden8

dreamlogic wrote: »

You cannot blame the masses for trusting in what the leadership of the country is telling them. Most people are busy with their lives. This is why they elect a government, to manage the country and guide them in the right direction. Otherwise why have a government? And why have them appearing on tv making speeches and all the rest of it when either they are lying to people, or they are incompetent and don't know what they're talking about in the first place?
We'd be better off without any government if this is how it has to be!

Yes you can blame them. The government is there to be supervised by the electorate who let their feeling known through elections. The way democracy is supposed to work in normal countries is the people guide the government and the government guide back. If you don't like the results feck them out at the next election.

What we have here is a corrupt government repeatedly voted back in by a zombie electorate who have suddenly discovered that when you hand over your life to a corrupt elite you end up taking it up the ass.

Apparently it's not such a good idea at all.

Oh, and you can't claim we didn't know FF were incompetent.

newman10

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So where do you want my Son who has Down Syndrome to go.

An SNA is granted to a Child not because they may have an Intellectual Disability but they may be of danger to themselves or to others.

Considering that I pay for Speech Therapy, OT and Medical Bills out of my own pocket the least that I can expect is a little support in his education.

Or is it back to the good old days of Daingean:rolleyes:

dreamlogic

dresden8 wrote:

The government is there to be supervised by the electorate who let their feeling known through elections. The way democracy is supposed to work in normal countries is the people guide the government and the government guide back. If you don't like the results feck them out at the next election.

We need to have shorter terms, elections every year maybe instead of giving them free reign for 4 years. Also it would be an idea to have frequent referendums on any proposed policy changes. There needs to be a lot more democracy so that we can "guide the government" as you say, instead of allowing them to get too comfortable and forget what they're there for!

What we have here is a corrupt government repeatedly voted back in by a zombie electorate who have suddenly discovered that when you hand over your life to a corrupt elite you end up taking it up the ass.

Yes. So where does this zombie electorate get their information from? Maybe that's part of where we should be looking for a solution to this...

I completely agree with you that people should take a more active role, but the system doesn't encourage this.
Actually a "zombie electorate" suits FF/FG just fine!

Oh, and you can't claim we didn't know FF were incompetent.

I didn't claim that!
It depends on who you mean by "we". Many people did know what they were like, yes, and didn't vote for them. Many more didn't bother voting at all of course.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Belfast

loveissucide wrote: »

Revolution=replacing the old boss with the new boss.We could allie ourselves with North Korea.

The classic Marxist idea of revolution.
The proletariat are oppressed and exploited by the ruling classes, and eventual the proletariat rise up ans throw out the ruling classes and then a new ruling classes emerges who exploit and oppress the proletariat and eventually are over throw in a revolution. the cycle carries on indefinitely.

Marx through the dictatorship of the proletariat and a communist society would put a stop to this cycle.

Trotsky said the Russia did not get dictatorship of the proletariat under Stalin but the dictatorship of the bureaucracy.

either way revolution have a habit of reproducing the same problem in the end.

If you turn a when through full revolution the wheel is back it the same sate it started in.

Unless you understand the reasons we got in to this state in the first place any change will reproduce the same problem.

You are right FG FF and Labour are not the answer, they are part of the problem.

Einstein had a good point when he said.

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
Albert Einstein


Perfect summed up in this Smirnoff Black Advert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcC_iEHiFZs

Not sure how far a political party will go.
The problem is a lack of understanding of where the problems came from or how to solve them.
One or more Think Tanks who could come up with new ideas and analyse the problem we are facing might stand a better chance.

djpbarry

dreamlogic wrote: »

We need to have shorter terms, elections every year maybe instead of giving them free reign for 4 years. Also it would be an idea to have frequent referendums on any proposed policy changes.

Why not - sure we have money to burn these days, don't we?

dreamlogic wrote: »

I completely agree with you that people should take a more active role, but the system doesn't encourage this. they're not arsed

As kevteljeur has already said, nobody gave a toss about what government policy was until they began to feel the pinch. In the same way, nobody in this country is in any way interested in what happens in Brussels until a referendum comes along every few years.

Sand

We need to have shorter terms, elections every year maybe instead of giving them free reign for 4 years. Also it would be an idea to have frequent referendums on any proposed policy changes.

Mobs are morons. If you want to see a society where direct democracy and people power is running riot, visit California. They cant even agree a budget, their politicians have no incentive to be leaders and politics is dominated by narrow minded extremists of either extraction ( ironic...only allowing a duality, see what I did there?)

The best *practical* form of government is not one where Johnno (who cant even find Europe on a map) is asked for his views on European policy. Its one where there are passionate, knowledgeable, patriotic people who can win the confidence of Johnno to engage and decide on European policy on his behalf and he can hire or fire dependant on results. If you think thats elitist...well yes, it is elitist. Because if were not going to be elitist we might as well get our public reps doing song and dance numbers in front of Simon Cowell and do a phone in vote on who gets to be in government this year.

Yes, I know...direct democracy would be great if the ordinary man was motivated and informed, but the ordinary man is more interested in Susan Boyle than Jose Barroso. And democracy hasnt changed that dynamic of politics. Its only given greater expression to the populism of it.

Afterall, the Ionians, seeking aid for their rebellion against Persia thousands of years ago marvelled that they had failed to win support from one man ( the king of Sparta, who properly recognised that ****ing with Persia wasnt smart) yet won support from thousands ( the democratic assembly of Athens which was carried away on a wave of jingoism and dellusion about the war being over by Christmas). The Persians sacked Athens.



What we need are the Irish people to expect better from their candidates. That they actually recognise qualified, smart, passionate people and vote for them as opposed to the cheeky chappies and local big men around town that they have voted for so far. We have legislators who are overwhelmingly teachers, publicans and solicitors/auctioneers. Are we surprised we get such amateurish representation?

We dont elect leaders, we elect followers. I have far more respect for someone like Joe Higgins (who I disagree with entirely on almost every issue) than I have for someone like Royston Brady or his inspiration, Bertie Ahern. We need politicians who arent afraid to *lead* - to take decisions which mightnt be popular but which are idealogically and honestly the best course of action. If there was a choice between a politician who would sacrifice his own electoral chances to take the decision that was the best course, as opposed to taking a different course that was more popular I would always vote for the guy who would put his country ahead of himself.

They problem lies with the electorate ultimately. We evaluate and judge candidates on how they impact us. If a politician decides to cut the dole, the unemployed vote against him. If a politician decides to cut health or education, the involved unions vote against them. No body ever steps back and tries to take an objective view - perhaps Im getting hurt by this course of action, but even so it is the best course of action for the country as a whole.

If we stepped back and tried to take an objective view - if public service union workers were to step back for example and say , "yeah, its kinda impossible to see how the public service paybill can double in 10 years, vastly in advance of inflation, and getting that under control is important for the fiscal survival of the state even if i have some pain for a year or two..." - until that happens, were going to get ****ing morons, promising us everything for nothing.

Dboy85

Let the good time roll baby :pac:

dreamlogic

djpbarry wrote:

they're not arsed

They're not arsed because the system doesn't encourage it.
It's a bit of a chicken and egg type dilemma, but it's not impossible to change. It starts with the education system. Subjects such as civics are not part of the school curriculum. Therefore most children and teens grow up not interested, or feeling that political matters are somehow above and beyond them.
I would like to see civics and ethics being taught in Irish schools. This would lead to a much more informed and engaged electorate.

Sand wrote: »

If you think thats elitist...well yes, it is elitist.

Wait a minute, where did I say that anything about elitism?
I have nothing against having a government(or an elite) if it is competent and willing to act in the best interests of its citizens. Nobody is arguing with that. The point is, they are not competent or trustworthy. So this thread asked for suggestions on how we can change the faults in the system so that we can get to a point where our leaders can be trusted and respected...

Yes, I know...direct democracy would be great if the ordinary man was motivated and informed,

The ordinary man you say? But what about the extra-ordinary man not being motivated and informed?

And democracy hasnt changed that dynamic of politics. Its only given greater expression to the populism of it.

Does this mean that you're anti-democracy or what? Do you think that longer intervals between elections might be a solution?

Mobs are morons.

What we need are the Irish people to expect better from their candidates. That they actually recognise qualified, smart, passionate people and vote for them as opposed to the cheeky chappies and local big men around town that they have voted for so far.

But what you are presenting here is a contradiction. First you say "mobs are morons", then you're saying that this same mob should somehow "recognise qualified, smart, passionate people and vote for them"
How do they make the transition from being "morons"?

We have legislators who are overwhelmingly teachers, publicans and solicitors/auctioneers. Are we surprised we get such amateurish representation?

Which professions would you suggest as ideal?

We dont elect leaders, we elect followers.

Yes, totally agree. Currently they are following bankers etc instead of putting citizens first. But what would you suggest to change this?

newman10

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Are you looking for the Revolution or do you want more PDs in Govenrment. If I remember properly the proposed the low tax no frills society and look at where that has got us.

Society should be for the greater good of all and not just a select few

sink

newman10 wrote: »

Are you looking for the Revolution or do you want more PDs in Govenrment. If I remember properly the proposed the low tax no frills society and look at where that has got us.

Society should be for the greater good of all and not just a select few

Economics 101, a low tax no frills society doesn't work when you double the public wage bill in 8 years. Lower taxes should only come after public wage bill has been cut not raised.

newman10

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Tell us the list and then we will know what form of leadership you would give.

A certain Mr Hitler had an idea of how to deal with persons with a disability.

irish_bob

newman10 wrote: »

Tell us the list and then we will know what form of leadership you would give.

A certain Mr Hitler had an idea of how to deal with persons with a disability.

mr hitler was into big goverment but lets not let that fact get in the way of unhinged hysteria

Hasschu

A revolution in Ireland would be if FF lost 10% of the vote in the next election. Irish voters have taken great pride in voting for crooks in election after election since De Valera left politics. We get what we vote for and we vote for cronyism, nepotism, self serving politicians, elected representatives on the take. A country awash in Quangos, PPPs and exotic concoctions that only fertile Irish minds could conceive of. All to further enrich the entrenched political classes. Yes Sheila we will continue to support them because they are our crooks and we have faulty moral compasses. The ECB or IMF will probably take over as the economic collapse unfolds. That is the day the cream skimming will stop. The downside is it will be painful for everybody.

MrMatisse

Its defo time for a change.

Ive always voted FF but im so annoyed with them this time im voting for Joe Higgins, even though i dont agree with a lot of his policies. I just think they need the wind put up them

http://www.joehiggins.eu/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/joeeuroleafletnewcomposite1.pdf

alan4cult

Next week's local elections are not elections. It is a referendum on how competent our government is and judging by responses in this thread the truth will be told. Vote with your feet people!

irish_bob

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Its defo time for a change.

Ive always voted FF but im so annoyed with them this time im voting for Joe Higgins, even though i dont agree with a lot of his policies. I just think they need the wind put up them

http://www.joehiggins.eu/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/joeeuroleafletnewcomposite1.pdf

surely thier is another caditate whos policys you do agree with and who also isnt a member of fianna fail , would that not be a better deal for you than voting for someone whos policys you dont agree with , seems strange to go from centre left to marxist

irishcarbomb2k

Hi guys,

Well I've been reading and following people's ideas quite closely and feel it necessary to vent. First let me tell you my position, I bought a house in 06 which is probably in negative equaity at the moment, I work for a large organisation that may be laying off people very near in the future, my wife owns a small business which is quiet at the moment and I feel the pinch at the moment just like everyone else with tax rises here and property tax rumblings there.
Now at this point, some might be thinking, here we go again, another complaining post however to everyone's surprise its not.

I do believe we made some disaster mistakes in the past 3 years and agree we relied too much on a over bloated property market and an expensive government and unstable health system. We lost the run of ourselves and I'm not just blaming the government, I'm blaming everyone, including myself. I enjoyed myself when times were good and now working to cut costs when times are hard. I take responsibility for myself and know I should have heeded the warnings but went in anyway. Nobody forced to buy the house I live in, nobody put a gun to my head to live a good life, so I cannot hope that someone will 'bail' me out now. I feel that a few developers should not have been given finance in the first place if they weren't going to be responsible with this.
So why I feel obliged to vent here, is we're all responsible and talking of the IMF and returning the 80's and getting away from Ireland, is actually making me feel sorry for Ireland. I have lived in Britain, and was recently in LA and believe me, things are a hell of a lot tougher. whilst in LA I seen people being physically removed from their house for missing their mortgage by TEN DAYS. I seen miles of queues for food, it actually reminded me Somalia or dafur!! However, the one thing America does best is hope. Yes they are blaming the government, yes they feel let down by a banking system and most recently, one of the oldest carmakers in the world closing, however they still have hope.

American's on the street haven't their heads down, they are not all going 'poor me, I'm going to emigrate and get away from here' -true most of them haven't passports anyway but that's beside the point. The only way we can get out of this is belief in ourselves as a nation. It is us that are putting ourselves down, it is us as a country that is standing waiting for things to happen. If we want things to happen, lets make them happen.
We can bring this country back from the brink by believing in ourselves. For example, If you have a business idea, run with it, take the chance, use the risk. If it fails, start again. There is no one stopping it but yourself. If your complaining you've no money, you don't need it. In most cases, you only need 50 euro. Most multi nationals started with a nominal amount. Microsoft started in a garage, carphone warehouse started in a flat in London, Google was a college project..The list goes on. If you believe in it, it can happen. Take the chance, if it fails, dust yourself off and start again. For those who don't take the chance and put those who do, down. Shame on you. At least they tried. Waiting for an apocalpse might make you happy, but it certainly doesn't help the rest of us.
The celtic tiger started from an IT boom, why cannot we have a Celtic Tiger 2, what is stopping us. I can tell you now, sitting here, that no amount of complaining or fault finding will help us. It is up to us to get up and do it ourselves. If we want rid of the government, then lets vote for those who we know can help get us there. If we want more money, lets work for it rather than using our homes as ATM's. If we want a better health system, fight for it. But we will all have to pay for it.
There is a LOT of potential still in this country. I can name a few, 'Intune, muzu, havoc, openhydro,c&f wind turbines' and many more not reported but coming. I know this because as my wife runs her own business and is involved in networking, she see's them on the ground, first hand.
The difference between the eighties and now is one thing, something we use everyday and often don't realise how powerful it is. There is one thing which people use to complain, but forget that the last time we had a recession of such phenomanal proportions, didn't even exist. The one thing is the internet.
In some ways I feel that the information technology age has actually exasperated the issue as news is now much more up to date and we often read about problems even before they become problems. What this does is cause consumers to fear the future, if consumers fear the future, they won't buy, if people don't buy, there won't be business to sell, the domino affect begins.
That same problem can be turned on its head. True the inherent problems exist, but what if we started a campaign of positivity. What if we used the one resource everyone (or at least most people) has and use it to end the recession and make Ireland great.

Here is my proposals to fight for.

Fibre to the street - Ireland is a relatively small country and can be covered quite easily with fibre cable. CIE, Bord Gais and ESB all have a significant Fibre system in place, we just utilise that for business/residential. Everytime, there is a requirement to lay new pipes, (water, mains, gas, etc.) there should also be a responsibility to lay Fibre cable at the same time therefore being progressive. Every new road built should have had a fibre cable layed in conjunction. Now I know that most motorways are built, but all new projects should include this. Now unfortunatly, most houses are in sparse locations, however an idea is do what Norway is doing, to save funds, neighbourhoods are getting together and laying their own cable, therefore costs are reduced. Most villages in the country have farmers, out of work builders, with equipment. Lets utilise that, pay them a wage, a little like a management fee, but one off, invest in fibre cable at approx 5 dollars a square metre.

Our health service - I am actually in favour of Fine gaels idea of a national health plan, placing all essential equipment and resources in local health units, taking the pressure of the hospital. What we are missing is a vital helicopter ambulance service to serve all major hospitals. Investment in a air ambulance for every major centre would help alleviate the issues of local a&e.

Education - finding the best teachers, enticing the best minds to teach maths and science in schools. We need classes in web design, classes in IT networks and technology. An educational system that is adaptable to the workplace rather than focuses on subjects, people will never use.

Finally I would like to actually point out the good things the government has done

R&D - The budget in 08, actually had one good initiative, the high investment and tax incentives in R&D which has actually created jobs in the likes of Intel, HP, and ESB.

Patents rights. - in the most recent budget, the relief and allowances on capital expenditure on the purchase of patent rights will entice companies to stay in ireland

Finally whats good about the Ireland and its people

Our low corporate tax rate
we have a young population, which means a good dynamic workforce who are flexible.
very little red tape in setting up business when compared to other countries
A small open economy with english as its main language.

In finishing up, we can fix this country and bring it back to the glory days. Lets not sit back and wallow in self pity. If you want to leave Ireland, then leave on your own violition and because you want to leave, but lets make leaving Ireland the last resort. I know this is an extremely hard thing to do when times are really tough and some people are not sure where their next meal is coming from, but we will get out of this and with optimism, starts growth. Remember, when times are at the lowest ebb, it often takes something you never even thought was possible to bring a wave of growth back again.

Sorry for the long post guys, let the inevitable stripping and finding faults with everything I said begin. :P

ionix5891

unfortunately all sort of extremist nuts flourish in tough times

Ireland is ripe for the taking by some far right or far left goons (hell we already have libertas and sf rubbing their hands)

we need to be very careful and not jump from a a bad mistake to a terrible one down the road

alan4cult

ionix5891 wrote: »

unfortunately all sort of extremist nuts flourish in tough times

Ireland is ripe for the taking by some far right or far left goons (hell we already have libertas and sf rubbing their hands)

we need to be very careful and not jump from a a bad mistake to a terrible one down the road

Again.

eamonnm79

ionix5891 wrote: »

yah revolutions worked out great in other countries thru' out history :cool:

Yeah, the french revolution was a disaster, and when the Americans revolted against the British it sent them back to the stone age.

ionix5891

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Yeah, the french revolution was a disaster, and when the Americans revolted against the British it sent them back to the stone age.

and a lot of people died in the process

i am sorry but thats not acceptable :rolleyes:

af_thefragile

Before you get too excited on the thought of a revolution, i think there are a few key points you should address.

Whom are you gonna give this country to after the revolution?
What is the new political party achieve and how are you gonna ensure the new party doesn't end up caught up in the same old rhetoric of FF and FG...?
What is your vision of the new Ireland?


A lot of times the only change revolution brings is a new face into power.
This is the main flaw of governments. Its when people get overexcited about their ideals for the country. They work hard to get into power to "fix" the country.
Once they get into power, they try to fix the country by taking in more power, increasing regulation and intervention, increasing taxes, centralizing the economy.
What ends up eventually is no different from what you fought against.

This is what we're all exactly doing and this is where we are all going wrong.
We wanna find one person who can take it all under himself and fix the country. This doesn't happen. The only way to fix the country is to give it back to its people rather than taking it away from the people to try to fix it yourself.

We don't need a revolution. What we need is an awareness among the people that the nation belongs to them, not the government.

rcecil

It's called Sinn Fein

www.sinnfein.ie

dreamlogic

af_thefragile wrote: »

We don't need a revolution. What we need is an awareness among the people that the nation belongs to them, not the government.

+1

ionix5891

rcecil wrote: »

It's called Sinn Fein

www.sinnfein.ie

ahahahahhhahahhaha

oh wait your not joking? right? :rolleyes:

A Primal Nut

dreamlogic wrote: »

Why have leadership at all if it's a case of being better off ignoring them and doing all the research ourselves? People have jobs and families and are busy with their lives. The whole reason they elect leaders is to provide leadership! If they are encouraged by the government to spend and borrow, that this is good for the economy etc, it's really not fair to blame them for trusting in leadership is it!

Leadership yes, but the government isn't going to create money out of thin air. It is up to the people to make sacrifices and not spend beyond their means. If the Government try to provide leadership, such as removing free healthcare for rich over-70s, increase tax, decrease social welfare, the people and media resist at every opportuity.

If they tried harder to discourage lending during the boom, they would have been critisiced for that too. Its hard to lead when the people resist making sacrifices.

Ideally, when the country is doing well, tax would be at its highest, when people can afford it and the government would save for a rainy day. Then when a recession hits the government can reduce tax and increase spending on improving the economy. Unfortunately this is impossible in a democracy where everyone insists on lower taxes when things are going well (sure the country is doing well, why do we need to increase tax) and then when things go bad tax is increased because its seen as necessary.

Just out of interest, there is lots of talk of a revolution in this thread, but assuming it is successful, what changes are you going to make. Haven't seen anything about that yet.

A Primal Nut

mega man wrote: »

I agree, this government should be ousted. But i don't think there is any other party suitable to run the country. There all the same. there should be laws past for a council to be set up to monitor the government so this crap never happens again.

:mad::mad::mad:

Great, more bureaucracy! Aren't we trying to reduce the number of public servants?

dreamlogic

A Primal Nut wrote:

Leadership yes, but the government isn't going to create money out of thin air.

This has nothing to do with anything I said! My point was simply that the govenment did not warn people about the likelihood that the property bubble would burst and dissuade them from taking out mortgages. If they had informed people of the reality instead of burying their heads in the sand, then people who went ahead and borrowed against this advice would then be solely to blame for the consequences. They were not warned against borrowing, on the contrary they were encouraged to do so. Therefore they cannot be blamed.

If they tried harder to discourage lending during the boom, they would have been critisiced for that too. Its hard to lead when the people resist making sacrifices.

Tried harder? What do you mean? They didn't try at all to dissuade sub-prime mortgage lending and other borrowing. Therefore they encouraged it, not discouraged.

Small Change

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Great, more bureaucracy! Aren't we trying to reduce the number of public servants?

A democratically elected Seannad might be a good start