Netherlands to close 8 prisons.

Dragan

http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-drug-friendly-netherlands-to-close-8-prisons-not-enough-crime

One of the most common things you hear in relation to the Netherlands is the commonly held idea that "lax" laws with relation to drugs and prostitution is cause it to be a hot bed of crime.

So, what the hell are they doing shutting down eight prisons?

Lack of inmates.

I wonder what they are doing so differently to us.

liah

And that's why drugs are bad, mmm'kay?

/s.

Seriously, when are other countries going to cop on and realize the sensible thing to do is decriminalize low-level drugs and prostitution and regulate it?

It's only a crime if you make it one and I can think of a lot worse things criminals could be doing than getting the munchies and paying for a roide. God knows most people pay for the latter eventually anyway...

5318008!

liah wrote: »

And that's why drugs are bad, mmm'kay?

/s.

Seriously, when are other countries going to cop on and realize the sensible thing to do is decriminalize low-level drugs and prostitution and regulate it?

It's only a crime if you make it one and I can think of a lot worse things criminals could be doing than getting the munchies and paying for a roide. God knows most people pay for the latter eventually anyway...

Tell me exactly, what is a low level drug?

Royale with Cheese

5318008! wrote: »

Tell me exactly, what is a low level drug?

Any class B/C drugs I would guess.

I've no idea what system Ireland use to categorise drugs though, that class A/B/C drugs thing is British I think. If it's anything like the film ratings, Ireland just take whatever the British think and make it one class higher.

p1akuw47h5r3it

He probably means Class-C drugs

5318008!

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Any class B/C drugs I would guess.

I've no idea what system Ireland use to categorise drugs though, that class A/B/C drugs thing is British I think. If it's anything like the film ratings, Ireland just take whatever the British think and make it one class higher.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

He probably means Class-C drugs

You do realise those systems are completely flawed and have very little actual scientific basis, right?

and also, i'd assume someone called liah is a girl.

liah

I mean stuff like marijuana, thought that was evident enough given the country in the topic.

And yes, I'm a girl :P

humanji

Dragan wrote: »

http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-drug-friendly-netherlands-to-close-8-prisons-not-enough-crime

One of the most common things you hear in relation to the Netherlands is the commonly held idea that "lax" laws with relation to drugs and prostitution is cause it to be a hot bed of crime.

So, what the hell are they doing shutting down eight prisons?

Lack of inmates.

I wonder what they are doing so differently to us.

They're not Irish and don't do everything to excess.

Oh, and can we have a rule where whoever brings in the tired old excuse of comparing to alcohol, gets banned from the thread. You never know, it might stop it going in the same loop as the others.

5318008!

What do you mean by "like marihuana"?

Although far better than alcohol it is by no means a safe drug. In fact scientific evidence would point towards many drugs being safer than marihuana.

Or do you mean in terms of addictiveness?

In which case, there's many drugs no more addictive than marihuana.

In fact, even with stimulants and opiates the addiction potential can be greatly reduced simply by taking them orally instead of snorting/smoking/whatever. Should they not be available in such forms to the public along with proper education as a harm reduction measure?

I don't see why cannabis deserves to be put on a pedestal aside from other drugs.

mp22

maby we could hire some of the empty prisons migh be cheaper than building new ones

humanji

mp22 wrote: »

maby we could hire some of the empty prisons migh be cheaper than building new ones

Judge: "I sentence you to 10 years on holiday!"

bushy...

5318008! wrote: »

What do you mean by "like marihuana"?

<---random ranting--->

Read the first post again.

They are closing prisons , not enough people in them.

Whatever they are doing , its working.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

humanji wrote: »

They're not Irish and don't do everything to excess.

Oh, and can we have a rule where whoever brings in the tired old excuse of comparing to alcohol, gets banned from the thread. You never know, it might stop it going in the same loop as the others.

it's not our fault you refuse to compare like with like.


But I suppose prohibition era america had absolutely no problems with alcohol related gang violence, it was all a hollywood lie to sell gangster movies.

5318008!

bushy... wrote: »

Read the first post again.

They are closing prisons , not enough people in them.

Whatever they are doing , its working.

I never said it wasn't.

dr.bollocko

Sorry to go off topic here but did anyone hear that Netherlands are to close 8 prisons?

liah

5318008! wrote: »

What do you mean by "like marihuana"?

Although far better than alcohol it is by no means a safe drug. In fact scientific evidence would point towards many drugs being safer than marihuana.

Or do you mean in terms of addictiveness?

In which case, there's many drugs no more addictive than marihuana.

In fact, even with stimulants and opiates the addiction potential can be greatly reduced simply by taking them orally instead of snorting/smoking/whatever. Should they not be available in such forms to the public along with proper education as a harm reduction measure?

I don't see why cannabis deserves to be put on a pedestal aside from other drugs.

Generally it refers to drugs that don't leave any significant lasting brain damage and the effects of which are quite mild and are comparative with alcohol in their effects and/or damages.

There's a reason why crime is so low there and it's because they have an understanding of the drugs that they have legalized.

The majority of prisons elsewhere are full of people who got busted for ridiculously trifling amounts of pot and who have no other such criminal record.

Take out the criminal aspect and all you get is a bunch of people sitting around in coffee shops or their living rooms having a toke and raiding the fridge. What's so criminal about that?

I won't get into the beneficial aspects of marijuana specifically because that's not what this is about.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dragan wrote: »

.... I wonder what they are doing so differently to us.

I firmly believe it's because they have more respect and better facilities for kids and teenagers; so they get them at grass-roots level before the crime-incetive kicks in.

humanji

Captain Mords Spiced Bum wrote: »

it's not our fault you refuse to compare like with like.


But I suppose prohibition era america had absolutely no problems with alcohol related gang violence, it was all a hollywood lie to sell gangster movies.

Hmmm, mainstream industry Vs illegal drugs. Yep, they're identical. My bad.

You can't remove alcohol from society and bringing in another substance that people will abuse is f*cking moronic if you can't get people to cop on and respect the first substance.

And my point was to try and get people to have a new conversation instead of cutting and pasting the several thousand threads about drugs that have already come and gone.

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic here but did anyone hear that Netherlands are to close 8 prisons?

Well, the OP related the empty prisons and the legality of drugs.

WindSock

Lets legalise rape and murder so we can empty our prisons too lol!!!

Dragan

humanji wrote: »

They're not Irish and don't do everything to excess.

Oh, and can we have a rule where whoever brings in the tired old excuse of comparing to alcohol, gets banned from the thread. You never know, it might stop it going in the same loop as the others.

Seeing as we are not using any comparisons to alchohol, what exactly are we basing this "Irish excess" thing on?

liah

WindSock wrote: »

Lets legalise rape and murder so we can empty our prisons too lol!!!

Yes, because rape and murder are CLEARLY on the same level as getting the munchies and having a laugh, and spending money on a consensual roide. :rolleyes:

Vim Fuego

Fair play to the Netherlands in general really - they have a level head and a logical approach to the issues at hand. The hysterical responses to this thread are representative of the numerous reasons we would not be able to achieve the same level of success - closed mindedness, fear and ignorance. Not to mention the fact that none of our career politicians would ever risk their neck for legal reform here.

Dragan

humanji wrote: »

Well, the OP related the empty prisons and the legality of drugs.

Actually, i didn't, i said that despite the argument that lax drugs and prostitution laws should make this worse, the Netherlands is seeing a big drop in crime and am asking what are they doing differently to us.

It's not that these were ALWAYS empty, it's that the figures are dropping and Netherlands is becoming safer.

Why can't we do that here?

WindSock

liah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Re::rolleyes:

What part of lol!!! don't you get?

Quint

After listening to kids talk on Moncrieff (they ask random questions to kids, today it happened to be about drugs) and it looks like the education on drugs is still "drugs are bad, mmm'kay".

liah

Dragan wrote: »

Actually, i didn't, i said that despite the argument that lax drugs and prostitution laws should make this worse, the Netherlands is seeing a big drop in crime and am asking what are they doing differently to us.

...You did, though... relating it to legalization of drugs theoretically being meant to make it worse. To which I responded with the idea that crime has decreased because the majority of crime previously had been related to low-level drugs and prostitution (look at figures for other countries and the amount of crime related to marijuana and prostitution, if you removed both from the figures, the crime rate would drop DRASTICALLY), which imo seems like a logical step in the conversation, all things considered?

liah

WindSock wrote: »

Re::rolleyes:

What part of lol!!! don't you get?

Oh I got the fact that it was meant to be a joke in reference to decriminalizing things to reduce crime. I just found it an utterly silly reference, because they're entirely incomparable things.

Sam Vimes

WindSock wrote: »

Lets legalise rape and murder so we can empty our prisons too lol!!!

Both rape and murder have victims. Smoking cannabis is a choice for a responsible adult that doesn't effect anyone else

Dragan

liah wrote: »

...You did, though... relating it to legalization of drugs theoretically being meant to make it worse. To which I responded with the idea that crime has decreased because the majority of crime previously had been related to low-level drugs and prostitution (look at figures for other countries and the amount of crime related to marijuana and prostitution, if you removed both from the figures, the crime rate would drop DRASTICALLY), which imo seems like a logical step in the conversation, all things considered?

Indeed, but why would it only drop recently given how long these laws have been in effect?

It is only a recent decision to close these prisons, so it is only recent changes that have had such an affect i would think?

Quint

Actually, the closed down prisons would convert easily to brothels:D

WindSock

liah wrote: »

Oh I got the fact that it was meant to be a joke in reference to decriminalizing things to reduce crime. I just found it an utterly silly reference, because they're entirely incomparable things.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Both rape and murder have victims. Smoking cannabis is a choice for a responsible adult that doesn't effect anyone else

Oh go away everyone, I was obviously acting the maggot hence the lol!!!

WindSock

Quint wrote: »

Actually, the closed down prisons would convert easily to brothels:D

Or shooting galleries.

humanji

Dragan wrote: »

Seeing as we are not using any comparisons to alchohol, what exactly are we basing this "Irish excess" thing on?

Pretty much everything. You haven't notice that people have a tad bit of a problem living within their means? Anyway, as I said I mentioned the alcohol bit to see if this thread could go a different instead of the usual "Well one is bad but allowed, so let's have another", which always goes in circles.

Dragan wrote: »

Actually, i didn't, i said that despite the argument that lax drugs and prostitution laws should make this worse, the Netherlands is seeing a big drop in crime and am asking what are they doing differently to us.

It's not that these were ALWAYS empty, it's that the figures are dropping and Netherlands is becoming safer.

Why can't we do that here?

I just said that as Dr Bollocko was telling people to go back on topic. You mentioned that it was there were less inmates despite what we're all told about drugs leading to crime. So it was sort of related to the original topic. I dont' think that matters now though. I guess we're in for another 20 pages of "Drugs are bad" Vs "Drugs aren't bad".

WindSock

I agree that it's not just the decriminilisation of the drugs and profession, (although it helps), it probably a lot more to do with attitudes and a government that works well. How can they manage better than us with a smaller land mass and a population of over 14 million?

Gummy Panda

WindSock wrote: »

Or shooting galleries.

or amusement parks.

"you too can experience the joys of having a dirty protest"

Whisko

Whose in our Irish jails for smoking a bit of dope? Is there anyone?

Quint

Alcohol sales have gone down already this year. Pints average about €4.50. Imagine the uproar from the drinks lobby if a TD even thought of legalising weed?
Having the option of staying in for the weekend on a bag of weed that cost €6 or €7 instead of spending €100 in a pub?

liah

Alright fair enough, I didn't take note of the time span and jumped to conclusions. My bad.

Dragan

humanji wrote: »

Pretty much everything. You haven't notice that people have a tad bit of a problem living within their means? Anyway, as I said I mentioned the alcohol bit to see if this thread could go a different instead of the usual "Well one is bad but allowed, so let's have another", which always goes in circles.

Indeed, but it's not as if economic problems are currently localised.

*thinks* There are a few more articles about the place that i will try and find. Mexico is currently legalising small amounts of smoke and coke for personal use, so is Calfornia ( are also trying to bring in legal sales and control of smoke ) and i believe Tenesse. They are all taking the view that they need to fight the guys at the top, not waste on the guys at the bottom.

I guess we're in for another 20 pages of "Drugs are bad" Vs "Drugs aren't bad".

Hopefully not, i'd rather keep this discussion based around the comparative law end, rather than people shouting at each other.

Although that is possible gonna lead to the same thing.

dr.bollocko

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic here but did anyone hear that Netherlands are to close 8 prisons?

post of the day

chrism2007

for those that have never been to the Netherlands.

its unbelievably similar to ireland, apart from the fact that Dublin has far more Heroin and scumbags

Dudess

In what ways is it unbelievably similar to Ireland?

humanji wrote: »

Hmmm, mainstream industry Vs illegal drugs. Yep, they're identical. My bad.

And what relevance has its legality? We're talking about the substance here, not whether it's legal or not.

liah wrote: »

Oh I got the fact that it was meant to be a joke in reference to decriminalizing things to reduce crime. I just found it an utterly silly reference, because they're entirely incomparable things.

In fairness, WindSock was only posting one of the typical comments that always gets thrown out on these threads...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dragan wrote: »

Seeing as we are not using any comparisons to alchohol, what exactly are we basing this "Irish excess" thing on?

Fear, paranoia and a complete reluctance to modernise.

happyoutscan

Quint wrote: »

Alcohol sales have gone down already this year. Pints average about €4.50. Imagine the uproar from the drinks lobby if a TD even thought of legalising weed?
Having the option of staying in for the weekend on a bag of weed that cost €6 or €7 instead of spending €100 in a pub?

I'd go to the pub more often if everyone was stoned.

Earthhorse

WindSock wrote: »

Oh go away everyone, I was obviously acting the maggot hence the lol!!!

Why do you hate freedom?

CaptainSkidmark

hash and weed are NOT legal in netherlands, they are just tolerated behind closed doors. ie at home or coffee shops

chrism2007

Dudess wrote: »

In what ways is it unbelievably similar to Ireland?

difficult to explain really. where you ever there?

Dudess

No.

Stercus Accidit

In a country crippled by binge drinking and alcoholism, you'd think there would be some education on the matter in Irish schools.

Then maybe we wouldn't be sending every 18 year old in the country on into the world of adult puking pissing and shitting themselves in the gutter every weekend completely uninformed about the subject.

And tbh, marijuana would do less damage than alcohol or cigarettes or cake do.

chrism2007

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

In a country crippled by binge drinking and alcoholism, you'd think there would be some education on the matter in Irish schools.

Then maybe we wouldn't be sending every 18 year old in the country on into the world of adult puking pissing and shitting themselves in the gutter every weekend completely uninformed about the subject.

And tbh, marijuana would do less damage than alcohol or cigarettes or cake do.

when you have a bunch of 60 year olds making the laws, your bound to be f*cked at every opportunity.

TheZohanS

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Then maybe we wouldn't be sending every 18 year old in the country on into the world of adult puking pissing and shitting themselves in the gutter every weekend completely uninformed about the subject.

But enough about Bulmers Pear....