Garda and Social Welfare Road Checkpoint.

kadman

I hope I,m in the right forum for this question.

Given that social welfare and garda are now often together at road checkpoints, i,d like to get clarification on 2 points.

1. Am I required by law to give any information to a garda request at a checkpoint.

2. Am I required by law to enter into a question and answer session with social welfare at a checkpoint.

thanks.

kadman

seamus

I've moved this into the public domain kadman. If you would prefer to not have it here, I can delete it.

kadman

Thats fine seamus, sorry about that.

kadman

Our man in Havana

kadman wrote: »

1. Am I required by law to give any information to a garda request at a checkpoint.

The Garda can ask what he likes but he is only entitled to certain information required by law such as name and address, Date of Birth, insurance information etc. Things like where have you been and where are you going and other chit chat do not need to be answered. Pages 132 and 133 of the current rules of the road explain what the Gardaí can ask for.

kadman wrote: »

2. Am I required by law to enter into a question and answer session with social welfare at a checkpoint.

Absolutely not. The have no statutory powers in this regard. They certainly have no power to compel traffic to stop hence the Gardaí. People on the dole are entitled to use the roads.

I would be interested to know how legal this set up is.

McCrack

In relation to no 1 if you are the driver of a motor vehicle in a public place you are required to allow the Garda reasonable time to discharge their duties. This means stopping if requested and having them check tax, ins., licence, tyres etc. They can demand your name and address and you are obliged to give them this...nothing more, nothing less. So questions like where are you coming or going or what you ate for dinner you don't have to answer.

If the Garda are operating a mandatory alcohol checkpoint you are of course obliged to co-operate by blowing into the bag if requested.

In relation to social welfare I'm not up to speed on social welfare legislation but I would of thought it would be officers from the Revenue at these checkpoints??, particularly near the border.

happyoutscan

What's the story with Social Welfare at checkpoints? Jeez I've heard it all now.

Our man in Havana

happyoutscan wrote: »

What's the story with Social Welfare at checkpoints? Jeez I've heard it all now.

These are basically fishing trips by the social welfare hoping to catch benefit cheats.

happyoutscan

Bond-007 wrote: »

These are basically fishing trips by the social welfare hoping to catch benefit cheats.

How exactly? Sorry for asking, my mind is rather fragile this morning/afternoon/day/week/month/year. I'm thinking checkpoints along the borders?

Our man in Havana

I am not entirely sure tbh, the OP will know more me thinks.

We are more discussing the legalities of the procedure.

Hooch

AGS regulary (and have for year) do checkpoints with Customs, social welfare, health and safety authority and county council.

These are looking for in order, Desiel/VRT, someone working and claiming social welfare, checking carrige of dangerous material (orange diamonds on front of trucks) and checking permits etc.

You dont have to answer social welfare, although you are obliged to cooperate with the other services. But Welfare can request the driver info through the proper channels from AGS.

And yes the checkpoint are totally legal and and been around as long as I can remember.
Hope this helps
NGA

ttm

This might explain what they are looking for.

Our man in Havana

Can a Garda detain a vehicle until they comply with the social welfare?

Our man in Havana

ttm wrote: »

This might explain what they are looking for.

Multi-Agency Checkpoint

These multi-agency vehicle check points are set up by An Garda Síochana and planned in consultation with other participating agencies. The recent checkpoints included the Gardaí, the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Revenue Commissioners Customs & Excise officials. From time to time other agencies such as the Health and Safety Authority, Road Safety Authority or Local Authority can participate.

At the checkpoints, Gardaí stop the vehicles and refer certain vehicles to individual agencies where the occupants are interviewed.

I would assume that someone can tell whoever that they will not answer anything and drive off as they have no power of detention.

Hooch

Bond-007 wrote: »

I would assume that someone can tell whoever that they will not answer anything and drive off as they have no power of detention.

Once the Garda has discharged his duties as per 109 RTA;).

Have only come across one incident of no comment. Welfare simply requested info from the member concerened and started its process.

ttm

If someone can dig through the legaleze the act that is being used is here Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005

Edit> important bit is here......

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

Our man in Havana

Interesting to say the least.

So would private passenger vehicles be excluded based on the above.

ttm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Interesting to say the least.

So would private passenger vehicles be excluded based on the above.

Don't think so when it says "question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle"

Edit> Sorry misread your post but I still think they can stop any vehicle provided they have reasonable cause.

2nd Edit> Hmmmmm reasonable cause would be the wrong wording "reasonably suspects" is the actual wording "stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment" don't think you can get much more catch all than that.

That might mean that if you don't have tools of your trade visable or the likes of a hi viz jacket on the seat then you wouldn't be questioned but if you had paint or cement on your cloths you might reasonably be suspected of working?

Riskymove

ttm wrote: »

Don't think so when it says "question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle"

Edit> Sorry misread your post but I still think they can stop any vehicle provided they have reasonable cause.

I would have presumed a SW inspector had certain powers in order to inspect!

I dont see any problem with this, people not cheating benefit have nothing to be concerned about after all..apart from being delayed at a checkpoint

partyguinness

You dont have to answer any questions.

But you risk being arrested and generally put through the mill in the police station. Also your silence will prob revoke your social payments...

Hooch

partyguinness wrote: »

You dont have to answer any questions.

But you risk being arrested and generally put through the mill in the police station. Also your silence will prob revoke your social payments...

Arrested for what??

I thought there was a right to silence in the state?? Didnt think infrences could be drawn from not answering the ''doleman''

partyguinness

nice guy always wrote: »

Arrested for what??

I thought there was a right to silence in the state?? Didnt think infrences could be drawn from not answering the ''doleman''

Of course inferences can be drawn plus you are not cooperating with an social welfare officer carrying out his lawful duties

oh yeah..and the stash of weed they will find in your boot...;)

thebman

So is this a message to unemployed construction foke to take their jackets out of their vehicles and work tools etc... in case they are stopped?

It seems kind of crazy, the persond could just have left the crap in the car.

By that logic, I work in IT so if I have my laptop in my car can they presume I'm going to work with a client instead of visiting my parents or going to help a friend and won't be getting paid?

Having tools isn't proof that your working I would have thought.

MorrisDunn

Even if one has nothing to hide I would take exception to some bureaucrat trying to suspend my liberty no matter for how short a period.

kadman

So basically, the message coming through is that in this type of situation, you have no right to privacy, even if you are going about your business in a legitimate manner.
I thought I read some where that you are not required to give your name and details to a garda unless he tells you under what act he is questioning about.Does he not have to give good reason why he is stopping you.

I thought that the constitution guranteed your right to travel unmolested.
Just for the record, I,m not involved in anything criminal at all:) I was asking from the point of view , that I thought you could not be detained , unless good reason was given for doing so.

kadman

Our man in Havana

A Garda can stop you under S109 Road Traffic Act 1961 and request certain information from you and you must comply with those requests.

As a matter of interest what were the SW inspectors asking you or doing?

kadman

I was not stopped at any checkpoint, nor questioned by any one. I specifically asked the question, because I heard that such checkpoints were in use in the midlands about 3 months ago, and I was curious to know a persons rights in such a situation.

As I said previously, I was under the impression that liberty was assured in the constitution. I was never aware that sw could question you at such a checkpoint. I find it strange that an innocent person can be detained by sw with absolutely no evidence of anything, in order to question him.

kadman

gally

Look, if you,ve nothing to hide whats the problem?If drawing the dole and working you,re depriving genuine needy cases and stealing from the working taxpayer.

Our man in Havana

I do agree with you that without "probable cause" they would have no business detaining you. If they have a specific allegation they can always visit you at home or demand you appear at their office for interview under caution.

Our man in Havana

gally wrote: »

Look, if you,ve nothing to hide whats the problem?If drawing the dole and working you,re depriving genuine needy cases and stealing from the working taxpayer.

The problem is people curtailing peoples liberty to conduct fishing expeditions. Are you a social welfare inspector by chance?
This is not the morals and ethics board. If you want to discuss those aspects there are other forums available. We are discussing the legality of the actions of SW.

Take your high moral horse elsewhere.

gally

No I,m a PAYE taxpayer for the last 40 years.Got up off my arse every morning rain hail or snow and out to work.Admittedly lucky to have always had a job.But I do think SW Inspectors are,nt interested in depriving people of their liberty,just ensuring taxpayers money is spent fairly.

Our man in Havana

And your post is connected to legal discussion how?

kadman

gally wrote: »

Look, if you,ve nothing to hide whats the problem?If drawing the dole and working you,re depriving genuine needy cases and stealing from the working taxpayer.

I take personal offense at your insinuation, but I,m not going to elevate it into an argument, as I dont want to derail this thread. I,ve been contributing to this website for a good few years, and I am 100% confident that you wont find anyone here that can call my honesty or integrity into question.

I have already stated that I am not involved in any criminal activity, nor have I been stopped at any checkpoint, manned by garda and social welfare , ever. And I would ask you to respect my honesty in relation to any posts I,ve made so far.

I am interested in the legalities of detaining law abiding citizens in such a situation, thats it. There is no other agenda at play here.

When I was told that these checkpoints are in operation nationwide, and have been for some time, it surprised me, and aroused my curiosity. I never heard on the tv,radio, or read in the media about these multi agency checkpoints, and i was wondering about a persons rights when stopped at one.Thats why I asked the particular question.

kadman

Victor

Garda: Good morning, could I ask where you're heading?
Driver: I'm off to work in _________
Garda (pointing): OK, can you pull in here to talk to this person.

thebman wrote: »

So is this a message to unemployed construction foke to take their jackets out of their vehicles and work tools etc... in case they are stopped?

It seems kind of crazy, the persond could just have left the crap in the car.

By that logic, I work in IT so if I have my laptop in my car can they presume I'm going to work with a client instead of visiting my parents or going to help a friend and won't be getting paid?

Having tools isn't proof that your working I would have thought.

darragh o meara

Was stopped recently at one of these checkpoints. Now I was not working at the time and claiming jobseekers. Where I was caughy was I was told that because my jeep was. Commercial and taxed commercialy I was in breach of some law and could expect a subbobs in the next few weeks. Haven't heard anything yet but don't see how or why they would summons me? Also all I was asked was if I was working and for my prsi number.

ttm

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

Was stopped recently at one of these checkpoints. Now I was not working at the time and claiming jobseekers. Where I was caughy was I was told that because my jeep was. Commercial and taxed commercialy I was in breach of some law and could expect a subbobs in the next few weeks. Haven't heard anything yet but don't see how or why they would summons me? Also all I was asked was if I was working and for my prsi number.

Hmmmmm that opens a hole new can of worms

Commercial vehicle tax is for a comercial vehicle and you were using it as a private vehicle, think that may be the problem. Admitting you were on jobseekers just proved that you wern't using the vehicle comercially catch 22 as if you were using it comercially please say hello and explain to Mr SW Officer over there.

kadman

But.....

If you had a commercial pickup, you could only insure it commercialy, tax it commercialy, and use it privately. And you could wave at Mr SW when you drive by him........couldn,t you.

Commercial insurance policies ask you if you intend to use the vehicle for personal use, or commercial trade, if my memory serves me well. But I am open to correction here.

kadman

Our man in Havana

They can be taxed privately for some crazy amount.

kadman

But if they are taxed privately, do they have to do a doe or Nct.

kadman

Our man in Havana

Neither.

As it is privately taxed the DOE does not apply. NCTS do not test pickups. It is a loophole that has been exploited for years.

ttm

kadman wrote: »

But.....

If you had a commercial pickup, you could only insure it commercialy, tax it commercialy, and use it privately. And you could wave at Mr SW when you drive by him........couldn,t you.

Commercial insurance policies ask you if you intend to use the vehicle for personal use, or commercial trade, if my memory serves me well. But I am open to correction here.

kadman

I can see your point but I did discuss this at length with someone in the tax office (but that wouldn't mean they knew what they were talking about) and they said that technically if you go home then pop down the shop at night in a commercial vehicle for Fish and Chips after a hard days work you are commiting an offence. They also said that no one ever takes any notice of it.

Our man in Havana

ttm wrote: »

I can see your point but I did discuss this at length with someone in the tax office (but that wouldn't mean they knew what they were talking about) and they said that technically if you go home then pop down the shop at night in a commercial vehicle for Fish and Chips after a hard days work you are commiting an offence. They also said that no one ever takes any notice of it.

Some councils wanted a goods vehicle declaration to tax a vehicle as goods. It said something along the lines of the vehicle would only be used for commercial use.

I don't think the form had any basis in law but some places demanded it and others didn't and I haven't heard of it for years.

kadman

Bond-007 wrote: »

Neither.

As it is privately taxed the DOE does not apply. NCTS do not test pickups. It is a loophole that has been exploited for years.

But how do you explain to Mr Plod, why you dont have either to prove roadworthiness.

kadman

Our man in Havana

Most of them are aware of it.

Johnny Utah

Bond-007 wrote: »

The Garda can ask what he likes but he is only entitled to certain information required by law such as name and address, Date of Birth, insurance information etc. Things like where have you been and where are you going and other chit chat do not need to be answered. Pages 132 and 133 of the current rules of the road explain what the Gardaí can ask for.

McCrack wrote: »

In relation to no 1 if you are the driver of a motor vehicle in a public place you are required to allow the Garda reasonable time to discharge their duties. This means stopping if requested and having them check tax, ins., licence, tyres etc. They can demand your name and address and you are obliged to give them this...nothing more, nothing less. So questions like where are you coming or going or what you ate for dinner you don't have to answer.

If the Garda are operating a mandatory alcohol checkpoint you are of course obliged to co-operate by blowing into the bag if requested.

Are you both sure about that?

The Garda could simply say he's investigating an offence in the area, involving a vehicle of similar description, in which case you would probably be obliged to answer any number of questions such as where are going to, etc...... Would you agree?

Our man in Havana

Nope.

Only information required by statute is required to be given. Anything else the right to silence can be invoked.

Guy:Incognito

I drop my casual slips into the social welfare office in Tallaght. 2 or 3 times theres been northern reg cars pulled into the coach stop outside the office, 50 yard sor so from the Garda station. If the Gards want they dont have to go very far to catch someone...........

With the amount of Gards in and out of the station , the only conclusion to draw is that they dont very much care.



Why try to antagonise Gards at a checkpoint by refusing to answer them (assumign you've nothign to hide)? All it's going to achieve is they will think you do have somehtign to hide and will look for any tiny reason to take you in and quiz you further.

The "stick it to the man " attitude is quite frankly retarded and helps no one, not least yourself. You might think your being cool and showing him whos boss but tbh, your better off heading home to sit under the stairs with a tinfoil hat where no one can get you.

McCrack

Nobody suggested anybody should play mute at a checkpoint, the legal requirements of persons in control of a vehicle in a public place to give a Garda were stated, that's all.

The tinfoil hat under the stairs is a new for to me.

kadman

McCrack wrote: »

Nobody suggested anybody should play mute at a checkpoint, the legal requirements of persons in control of a vehicle in a public place to give a Garda were stated, that's all.

The tinfoil hat under the stairs is a new for to me.

Am I legally obliged to relinquish my tin foil hat at a checkpoint.....:D

kadman

Disky

The "bend over and take it" attitude of most posters in relation to this topic is quite shocking.

People have a right to go about their activities without answering every question under the sun, and this "if you remain silent you must have something to hide" notion is insane.

Disky

ttm wrote: »

If someone can dig through the legaleze the act that is being used is here Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005

Edit> important bit is here......

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

Well, the highlighted part would suggest that suspicion is required on the part of the welfare and gardai. Therefore a checkpoint is in contravention of this, unless of course every person on the road is a suspect.

dlambirl

This used to happen years ago when the Gardai, Customs and Social Welfare had checkpoints. Hit 3 birds with the one stone!

So what does this mean - the guard stops you and then the social welfare dude talks to you. Asks you what? If your claiming?

Say your claiming as a single person and you've got a boyfriend/girlfirend with you - what would they do?!

Surely people on the dole or claiming benefits are entitled to drive and be on the road too!!