Let's end this 'dole is too much' stuff

Mr Benevolent

...with a simple chart from the OECD.



Image tags... bah humbug.

Mr. Presentable

Now find one from 2008/9

phasers

I'm moving to Luxembourg

snubbleste

or better still, find a comparison of jobseekers allowance

Mr Benevolent

nipplenuts wrote: »

Now find one from 2008/9

That's stupid. All the other countries will have increased their dole in line with inflation as well.

magick

Confab wrote: »

That's stupid. All the other countries will have increased their dole in line with inflation as well.

its not stupid, just need up to date information

That suggests we are twice our nearest neighbour - we are not twice as rich as our nearest neighbour.

RonMexico

It is too much.

Confab

Confab wrote: »

That's stupid. All the other countries will have increased their dole in line with inflation as well.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/2-15052009-AP/EN/2-15052009-AP-EN.PDF
According to Eurostat our annual rate of inflation was -0.7% in April. By your logic it should be cut.

af_thefragile

There shouldn't be one in the first place...
But then again, there shouldn't be a lot of things along with it for it to work...

super_furry

It's not just the dole though (which incidently is about 20% more than your chart there. It's all the extra benefits which ensure that in many cases , people are better off on the dole than working.

Mr Benevolent

That suggests we are twice our nearest neighbour - we are not twice as rich as our nearest neighbour.

Logic?

Are we 2 1/2 times poorer than Luxembourg? No.

The EU average dole payment is 50% more than Ireland's. Ireland is one of the three most expensive countries in the EU. So why are we paid a dole figure that ranks in the bottom three?

RonMexico

This country doesn't need any more scroungers. You are lucky to be getting anything and if you put as much effort into finding a job as you do into scrounging for free handouts this country would be in a much better place.

Mr Benevolent

RonMexico wrote: »

if you put as much effort into finding a job as you do into scrounging for free handouts this country would be in a much better place.

I paid for my dole with my PRSI contributions. I pay VAT, duties and other taxes. That's not scrounging. Do I need to explain this more simply? You need to differentiate between city centre druggies and honest people who have paid plenty for their dole entitlement.

I send out CVs every day. If people lost their holier then thou smugness they might begin to understand. There is no such thing as free money.

Ponster

I don't think it's just as easy to compare figures like that without considering the social welfare systems of each country.

In France you get 80% of your last wages when made redundant but only for 6 months or so. After that it's a sliding scale down to about €150 per week after a year of not finding work. The figures you present are the maximum figures for dole in each country but not the actual 'real' figures as such.

af_thefragile

Confab wrote: »

I paid for my dole with my PRSI contributions. I pay VAT, duties and other taxes. That's not scrounging. Do I need to explain this more simply? You need to differentiate between city centre druggies and honest people who have paid plenty for their dole entitlement.

I send out CVs every day. If people lost their holier then thou smugness they might begin to understand. There is no such thing as free money.

For a lot of people Dole is free money.
Though i'm not gonna accuse you as you seem to be genuinely in need of it.

I think the government should have some sort of plan, like instead of giving away free money as Dole, they could like give the people some work to do.
That would seriously be a lot more productive. They could like make them clean up the city or build things or something like that... Anything!

This is what i don't like about the government. It absolutely lacks any sort of an imagination!!

magick

af_thefragile wrote: »

For a lot of people Dole is free money.
Though i'm not gonna accuse you as you seem to be genuinely in need of it.

I think the government should have some sort of plan, like instead of giving away free money as Dole, they could like give the people some work to do.
That would seriously be a lot more productive. They could like make them clean up the city or build things or something like that... Anything!

This is what i don't like about the government. It absolutely lacks any sort of an imagination!!

agreed, some sort of "work for ur dole" system should be put into effect

Mr Benevolent

magick wrote: »

agreed, some sort of "work for ur dole" system should be put into effect

I have no problem with that, although the practical issues are huge, not least that it may take jobs away from the people who have them. Insurance is another issue.

PeakOutput

magick wrote: »

agreed, some sort of "work for ur dole" system should be put into effect

the tanaiste(i think it was) was on newstalk earlier with exactly this type of plan

employers sign up and graduates get 6 months work placement in the relevant areas (i assume) and at the end of it the employers can interview them for a full time position

there is a similar scheme for people who are not graduates

sounds good and in fact imo those people should be given more than the dole and those that dont sign up / arent working in the scheme get less to offset it

af_thefragile

Confab wrote: »

I have no problem with that, although the practical issues are huge, not least that it may take jobs away from the people who have them. Insurance is another issue.

They could always think of a new job.
Like c'mon. This is what i was saying about imagination.

They could:
Clean up the streets.
Clean up the liffey.
Build a monument.
Look after the gardens.
Help old people cross streets.
Assist people.

I dunno, like there are hundreds of things one could think of for them to do that would give them something to do and at the same time serve the city too.

As for insurance, well, they're already paying so much for the Dole, they should be able to get a cheap insurance cover too. Its not like some high risk job they need to do. And they're the government, they make the laws! They could do without insurance for the "Dole workers". Just look after them if anything goes wrong.

easyeason3

magick wrote: »

agreed, some sort of "work for ur dole" system should be put into effect

I suggested this a few weeks ago & most of the people who posted got very angry at the thoughts of someone working for their dole money as they thought it would result in jobs being lost because employers would abuse the system. I was also told to stop dreaming & get a job, I wish it was that easy. These are the very same people who pour scorn on people signing on, it's a classic catch 22.

Anyway if the dole was cut then we would have to accept it. People working are taking pay cuts left, right & centre so why not cut it even by €10?
Yes I have paid taxes, like everyone else, but I don't expect or want to be given what I consider free money so if a reduction is needed then I'm all for it.

I think if you spend your money on 'fags & booze' then yes the dole is too high.
If you spend it on paying bills & keeping your head above the water then it is just enough, but there is scope for a slight reduction.

kraggy

The cost of living in this country has been steadily decreasing since last year. Thus, social welfare payments should also. End of story.

Black Lead

magick wrote: »

agreed, some sort of "work for ur dole" system should be put into effect

Back in 1999 the Wexford Council with FAS took dozens of long term unemployed and gave them part time jobs for 6months cleaning streets, looking after parks and graveyards etc etc but this is when they had the money nowerdays there is no money to fund/run these kinda things but soemthing of a similar line should be re-introduced

SEPT 23 1989

In times of recession and depression its always a really good feeling to put the boot into the poor,the sick,children and the elderly,sure they caused the mess didnt they

easyeason3

Black Lead wrote: »

Back in 1999 the Wexford Council with FAS took dozens of long term unemployed and gave them part time jobs for 6months cleaning streets, looking after parks and graveyards etc etc but this is when they had the money nowerdays there is no money to fund/run these kinda things but soemthing of a similar line should be re-introduced

It's called a CE scheme but you have to unemployed for at least 12 months to qualify which is ridiculous. These schemes are still in place.
I don't understand why someone should get €204 a week when they could be doing some of the above mentioned on a part time basis.
It gives people a sense of worth & responsibility as well as leaving them available to find full time work in a sector they have experience in.

Can you imagine the difference that could be made to cities, towns & villages with even a fraction of the people signing on?

Jet Black

This is what is needed but will never happen..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_the_dole


If the goverment were to do something like this it would cost an estemated 100m (translation 500m) and would not work.

Xiney

The dole isn't too much.

And yes, some people abuse the system.

But the vast majority of new applicants these days are just like you and me - professionals that have worked all their adult lives and have been let go from their jobs with nothing coming up.

There isn't enough being done in terms of retraining and the existing CE schemes are woefully inadequate. But hopefully things will turn around before too long - because while we're headed for 20% unemployment, the government is going to have to take notice.

Jet Black

RonMexico wrote: »

This country doesn't need any more scroungers. You are lucky to be getting anything and if you put as much effort into finding a job as you do into scrounging for free handouts this country would be in a much better place.

Thats the attitude I hate, what about the people who lost there jobs and after handing out 100's Cvs cant get work. If you were unemployed and could not get a job what would you do?

RonMexico wrote: »

You are lucky to be getting anything

How true.

RonMexico

Applicants for the dole should have to work three days a week in Government schemes. The receive theri dole payments at the end of the week. The rest of the week they have free to look for a higher paid job than the dole.

Plenty of work to be done out there for €200 on a three day work schedule.

Cleaning
Gardening
Litter Patrol
Maintaining grass verges, roundabouts & other green areas.

Don't give me that bull about other people losing their jobs as a result of this because there is enough evidence out there that these things need to be taken care of. If people are being paid to do this work already then they deserve to lose their jobs because clearly they aren't doing said job. You only have to drive around any of our cities to see the state of some areas. They badly need a bit of TLC.

Give applicants a choice of jobs and if they don't want to do it then dole payments should be cut by 50%. Then we'd see whether the dole is too much or not.

Mr Benevolent

RonMexico wrote: »

If people are being paid to do this work already then they deserve to lose their jobs because clearly they aren't doing said job.

I'd respond to that but the hypocrisy staggers me.

Jet Black

I think people should be kept in there jobs and paid the 200 for working there
Example.. If I was let go from my full time job paid 15per hour, I would be employed back by the company to do the same job at reduced hours working 13 hours.
The employer still pays the tax to the government.

RonMexico

Oh the outrage.

Mr Benevolent

Mask wrote: »

I think people should be kept in there jobs and paid the 200 for working there
Example.. If I was let go from my full time job paid 15per hour, I would be employed back by the company to do the same job at reduced hours working 13 hours.
The employer still pays the tax to the government.

Not a bad idea really.

mollypop

Confab wrote: »

...with a simple chart from the OECD.



Image tags... bah humbug.

That's so skewed! :rolleyes: If you look at what your average dole bum (someone who's never worked) gets in these countries you'll find Ireland much higher on the list. According to this (much more intelligent) analysis we're the 10th best country in the world for the ol dole:
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/apr/05/states-of-grace-dole-payments-around-the-world/

dsmythy

The dole is too much! (Considering we pay much less tax than some of the other EU15 countries.)

Blackjack

I'm all for the work for your dole scheme.

I've no huge issues with people getting the 204 a week as long as they're willing to contribute, as opposed scratching thier arse.


I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for this, but I'm going to suggest it anyway:
A simple system whereby you must contribute a least one day a week's community work, be it street cleaning, tidying up a park, cleaning graffitti, etc, to ensure that someone qualifies for the full amount.

If you don't turn up, your dole is docked, so you only get say 150 a week.

The people that do it get Extra dole, there's less accusation of "scrounging", and if they have to clean up the crap some little scumbag in their area has been seen doing, they're more likely to be open about this and suggest to sadi scumbag that they shouldn't have to do it. I.E - Oi, Scumbag, I just finished painting that wall, feck off, etc. Tame, Lame, I realise, but you get the social Ideal at least.

Someone has to manage the process, so in doing so there is additional employment created but essentially, overall, this should be aimed with being done at a lower/same cost of achieving the same amount of work than it would if the Council were required to do it.

The money that would be saved, could be spent properly on other infrastructural projects, as opposed to being syphoned off tidying up ****holes after scumbags all the time.

A social Welfare system that rewards people for doing nothing isn't working, it need to be changed.

Wagon

af_thefragile wrote: »

For a lot of people Dole is free money.
Though i'm not gonna accuse you as you seem to be genuinely in need of it.

I think the government should have some sort of plan, like instead of giving away free money as Dole, they could like give the people some work to do.
That would seriously be a lot more productive. They could like make them clean up the city or build things or something like that... Anything!

This is what i don't like about the government. It absolutely lacks any sort of an imagination!!

It's a lovely idea. getting out and working for your dole money is like having a job. It keeps you from mind numbing boredom (you can call dole people what you want, the boredom is a killer sometimes). It can make you a little proud knowing that you've done something to help. It would make many who are out of work feel good.
but there will always, and i mean always, be those that take advantage of a nice system like that. and it'll be screwed around completely. Very nice idea but the logistics are too open to being tampered with.

Jet Black

Blackjack wrote: »

I'm all for the work for your dole scheme.

I've no huge issues with people getting the 204 a week as long as they're willing to contribute, as opposed scratching thier arse.


I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for this, but I'm going to suggest it anyway:
A simple system whereby you must contribute a least one day a week's community work, be it street cleaning, tidying up a park, cleaning graffitti, etc, to ensure that someone qualifies for the full amount.

If you don't turn up, your dole is docked, so you only get say 150 a week.

The people that do it get Extra dole, there's less accusation of "scrounging", and if they have to clean up the crap some little scumbag in their area has been seen doing, they're more likely to be open about this and suggest to sadi scumbag that they shouldn't have to do it. I.E - Oi, Scumbag, I just finished painting that wall, feck off, etc. Tame, Lame, I realise, but you get the social Ideal at least.

Someone has to manage the process, so in doing so there is additional employment created but essentially, overall, this should be aimed with being done at a lower/same cost of achieving the same amount of work than it would if the Council were required to do it.

The money that would be saved, could be spent properly on other infrastructural projects, as opposed to being syphoned off tidying up ****holes after scumbags all the time.

A social Welfare system that rewards people for doing nothing isn't working, it need to be changed.

Something like the australian system.

Basic Work for the Dole
Placements are available in a wide range of areas including heritage, the environment, arts, community care, tourism, sport and making and maintaining community services and facilities. Most projects benefit the general community through services and adding value to civic assets, however, some projects in drought affected areas are designed to benefit private enterprise (through the Drought Force scheme).
Upon successful completion of a Work for the Dole placement, participants are usually eligible for a Training Credit to assist with accredited training ($800 for six months, less for less time), a Passport to Employment package of job application training, and a fortnightly transport supplement.
Work for the Dole services are delivered through community or local government bodies, or by the Green Corps.

Blackjack

Mask wrote: »

Something like the australian system.

absolutely.

Terry

Mask wrote: »

Something like the australian system.

Best of luck finding places for 300,000 people.

Mr.Lizard

I' ve no problem with the value of the dole as it stands. I consider it 'supression tax'. An amount I pay to keep the scum of this country from running riot and totally destroying the place. I imagine that's what the government think as well?

dotsman

Confab wrote: »

...with a simple chart from the OECD.



Image tags... bah humbug.

Congratulations. You found a bull$hit statistic on a bull$hit Irish left-wing website. You didn't need to start a thread hoping that there would be other gullible people too.

kraggy

Terry wrote: »

Best of luck finding places for 300,000 people.

There's plenty to be done in this country to improve the way it looks. Enough for even 400,000.

Blackjack

Terry wrote: »

Best of luck finding places for 300,000 people.

Should we leave things as they are so, as to do something for even a fraction of that number might be too much effort?.

Ponster

Ponster wrote: »

I don't think it's just as easy to compare figures like that without considering the social welfare systems of each country.

In France you get 80% of your last wages when made redundant but only for 6 months or so. After that it's a sliding scale down to about €150 per week after a year of not finding work. The figures you present are the maximum figures for dole in each country but not the actual 'real' figures as such.

Exactly. The dole in other countries is much more 'fair' in that those who put in more get more back. It's not a perfect system, but a lot better than what we have.

af_thefragile

Mask wrote: »

This is what is needed but will never happen..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_the_dole


If the goverment were to do something like this it would cost an estemated 100m (translation 500m) and would not work.

I can't see how it would cost the government that much money just to make people on Dole work a little for their money?!

Just hand the person a freaking broom and tell him to clean the place to earn his dole money!!!
Why does the government has to come about and complicate the **** out of everything?!!?!

Tell the government to hand me the Dole money and i'll freaking impliment it myself for little or no extra cost!!

Its just another government's excuse for being lazy or if implemented, tax people more...

pickarooney

PeakOutput wrote: »

the tanaiste(i think it was) was on newstalk earlier with exactly this type of plan

employers sign up and graduates get 6 months work placement in the relevant areas (i assume) and at the end of it the employers can interview them for a full time position

Or just hire another graduate for free. Pretty easy decision I would imagine.

vibe666

phasers wrote: »

I'm moving to Luxembourg

it would be a lot more useful to move everyone on the dole here over to the UK and pay them to look after them. would only cost us half as much then.

Seaneh

the dole is about 10600 a year (204 a week) and thats not too much IMHO, but I feel foreign nationals shouldn't be entitled to it unless they have lived here for hwoever long it takes to gain nationality and then excerise their right to become irish nationals.

Won't be a popular view but I don't care, in times like thise we need to look after our own and let poland, the UK, france or where ever else look after their own.

Xiney

Seaneh wrote: »

the dole is about 10600 a year (204 a week) and thats not too much IMHO, but I feel foreign nationals shouldn't be entitled to it unless they have lived here for hwoever long it takes to gain nationality and then excerise their right to become irish nationals.

Won't be a popular view but I don't care, in times like thise we need to look after our own and let poland, the UK, france or where ever else look after their own.

Ireland is part of the EU, though, and giving the dole to EU members is part of that.

af_thefragile

Seaneh wrote: »

the dole is about 10600 a year (204 a week) and thats not too much IMHO, but I feel foreign nationals shouldn't be entitled to it unless they have lived here for hwoever long it takes to gain nationality and then excerise their right to become irish nationals.

Won't be a popular view but I don't care, in times like thise we need to look after our own and let poland, the UK, france or where ever else look after their own.

Non-EU people don't get **** from the government...