Commemorate 1798 with a 'United Irishmen' Day petition

Cavehill Red

Saw this mentioned on another board and thought I'd give it a bit of an airing here.
Seems like a decent idea to me. Move the June bank holiday forward by a week in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen.
No cost to taxpayer, ideal opportunity for voluntary groups to do something on that day to promote equality, minority religions, the Irish language, freedom, human rights and universal brotherhood (and sisterhood, I guess!)

http://www.petitiononline.com/may1798/petition.html

Nodin

I signed it.












Do I get a pike? Not the fish, the skewery thing.....

topper75

Sure, weren't they all presbyterians*, them boys?

*only messing, only some were.

Cavehill Red

If we can get this introduced, there'll be a free pike for every home!*









*May not be true. Post and packaging charges apply.

Our man in Havana

Is 1798 even relevant today?

Permabear

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What is the point... Seriously?

Cavehill Red

The point, I suppose, is that the June bank holiday itself is pointless.
The point is also that the United Irishmen were non-sectarian.
Their ideals of universal freedom, human rights, and brotherhood between all the people of this island irrespective of creed or indeed we may add gender, sexual preference, skin colour, were incredibly forward thinking for their day and remain unfulfilled yet.
They remain something to aspire to, and instead of another pointless bank holiday we could have a day for voluntary groups to use as a focus to promote all of the above ideals.
Plus, it costs nothing whatsoever to do.
Win-win.

galwayrush

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The point, I suppose, is that the June bank holiday itself is pointless.
The point is also that the United Irishmen were non-sectarian.
Their ideals of universal freedom, human rights, and brotherhood between all the people of this island irrespective of creed or indeed we may add gender, sexual preference, skin colour, were incredibly forward thinking for their day and remain unfulfilled yet.
They remain something to aspire to, and instead of another pointless bank holiday we could have a day for voluntary groups to use as a focus to promote all of the above ideals.
Plus, it costs nothing whatsoever to do.
Win-win.

Put that way, i'd prefer to celebrate it more than 1916.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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And since when are the United Irishmen considered a threat to anything 'non-sectarian'?

turgon

Does your standard nationalist know 1798 was "non-sectarian," or do they, as I suspect, deal with it in the usual "us vs them" attitude that the "brits" are the eternal enemy and they were fighting for Ireland and all we stand for?

And btw, ideals when it comes to Irish nationalism are irrelevant. The only ideal is that the nationalist knows more than you do, and that if you disagree your a "West Brit".

For example, 1916 promises "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all." And yet we have a lot of our nationalists still cursing the "prodys."

So no, I dont think we should have another holiday to boost our inferiority complex.


Edit: like take a look at some of the comments.

Our man in Havana

Edit: like take a look at some of the comments.

Very interesting indeed.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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A vision of a non-sectarian Irish republic for starters.....

turgon

Like the celebrations of the "non-sectarian" 1916 rising, which promised religious liberty?

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

Like the celebrations of the "non-sectarian" 1916 rising, which promised religious equality?

Well as they're seperated by some 200 years and took place with a rather different Religous demographic, no.....

There was a point there?

rockmongrel

Jaysus, people still care about this stuff? I thought we left this in the past.

turgon

My point was that thinking in celebrations of an event oft times differ from the thinking of the people involved in the event.

You will find people who praise 1916 and yet are racist towards protestants.

Sand

Idealistically, the United Irishmen were non sectarian and admirable in their aims. However, in practise it would be tricky to celebrate 1798 given the atrocities carried out by the Irish camp at Vinegar Hill and throughout Wexford.

To be honest, if we are looking for an aspirational Ireland that isnt mired in sectarianism, atrocities, hatred and bitterness then we need to start looking at the future rather than sorting through our past hoping to find some angelic period of history.

oscarBravo

rockmongrel wrote: »

Jaysus, people still care about this stuff? I thought we left this in the past.

We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

You will find people who praise 1916 and yet are racist towards protestants.

I've been in the room with people who knew sections of the Penal law almost by heart, but never seemed to have a problem with Apartheid. We can't be dragged down by the threat of the eternal eejit. We have to take them on if they arrive and either convert or eject them.

galwayrush

Bond-007 wrote: »

Very interesting indeed.

Indeed, looks like we'll need at least another 100 years before the ignorance dies out.:rolleyes:

Permabear

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A Dub in Glasgo

You think not having a monarchy is sectarian?

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not as far as I'm aware.

Permabear

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A Dub in Glasgo

Why would it be sectarian when Unionism is a political outlook or ideal?

Permabear

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A Dub in Glasgo

donegalfella wrote: »

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So any nonsectarian solution is an oxymoron in your opinion?

Permabear

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A Dub in Glasgo

Is there a degree of nonsectarian solution then? If not, what makes the present sectarian solution better than any body elses proposed sectarian solution?

Permabear

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O'Coonassa

Ooooh Enlightenment Republicanism, my favourite. Can we hang some Catholic priests from the lamposts for decoration comme les Français? It'd send a good clear signal to the Dissenters that it's finally safe to come back to our camp without fear of getting burned as ye heretikef.

O'Coonassa

Cavehill Red wrote: »

the Irish language

Why'd you have to go and involve this purely Gaelic football? D'you think Tone's and McCracken's children should've had it beaten into them at school or something?

jank

We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

No, this is a trait shared by all countries.

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

Are you Kevin Myers?

b12mearse

i think its a fantastic idea.
we should ware green sashes and march in july with the orange order and carry signs saying UNITED WE STAND.
i think that would solve the sectarian problem.

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Are you Kevin Myers?

No. But thank you for asking.

Erin Go Brath

oscarBravo wrote: »

No. But thank you for asking.

So theres at least two people in Ireland who loathe Irelands history in such a way then.

Our man in Havana

Many people in Ireland do not agree with 1916 or 1798.

Erin Go Brath

Bond-007 wrote: »

Many people in Ireland do not agree with 1916 or 1798.

True and theres probably some who would prefer if we were a province of the UK once again aswell. You just have to open a history book to see how well that one went for us. The revolutions were a necessity for Ireland to gain her freedoms and to ensure we would never be subjected to another famine caused by British policy, or discriminated against because we hold no allegiance to a British monarch.

Happy Monday

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

True and theres probably some who would prefer if we were a province of the UK once again aswell. You just have to open a history book to see how well that one went for us. The revolutions were a necessity for Ireland to gain her freedoms and to ensure we would never be subjected to another famine caused by British policy, or discriminated against because we hold no allegiance to a British monarch.

Or subject our people to mass emigration - oh no, except the hundreds of thousands who left in the 50s and 80s.

Or let our children be subject to institutional abuse - ahem, not that either!

The 1916 rising went against the democratic wishes of the Irish people.

In 1916 the reality was that Ireland was a fully functioning unit of the United Kingdom in the way that Scotland for example is today.

Cavehill Red

Sand wrote: »

Idealistically, the United Irishmen were non sectarian and admirable in their aims. However, in practise it would be tricky to celebrate 1798 given the atrocities carried out by the Irish camp at Vinegar Hill and throughout Wexford.

Nobody's looking to celebrate Vinegar Hill or any other battle.
The point is to take the non-sectarian ideals of the United Irishmen as a starting point for a national day that doesn't revolve around alcohol and paddywhackery.

Sand wrote: »

To be honest, if we are looking for an aspirational Ireland that isnt mired in sectarianism, atrocities, hatred and bitterness then we need to start looking at the future rather than sorting through our past hoping to find some angelic period of history.

If we're looking for an aspirational Ireland then we need to start aspiring towards one.
All that's been proposed is a national day to acknowledge the tremendously forward thinking ideals of the United Irishmen, a day that could be used by voluntary bodies, charities, NGOs, or individuals to promote their own aspirations.
It's not Republican. It's not Sectarian. It's unifying and forward looking, promoting a vision of Ireland where all people are equal and all people are free.
I really can't see a downside to moving a bank holiday by a week and letting the people use it to promote their own visions for Ireland.
Perhaps its a little too democratic for some people's liking, I don't know.

Erin Go Brath

Happy Monday wrote: »

Or subject our people to mass emigration - oh no, except the hundreds of thousands who left in the 50s and 80s.

Or let our children be subject to institutional abuse - ahem, not that either!

The 1916 rising went against the democratic wishes of the Irish people.

In 1916 the reality was that Ireland was a fully functioning unit of the United Kingdom in the way that Scotland for example is today.

There is a lot wrong with our country today and a lot of problems that need to be addressed, a lot of leaders who have abused their power and privelege for personal gain. Believe me i'm as angry as anyone how we've been misruled and many of our citizens mistreated.

However under British rule over 1 million Irishmen (a conservative estimate) died between 1845 and 1850. The British army had armed regiments exporting food out of Ireland while people were dying all over the country from starvation.

Do we really want these people controlling us again?

Otacon

Unless they are all frozen and can be revived, I don't think that would be a problem.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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The thing about selective quoting is that you lose all impact when the full quote is in the same post. to substitute the common name of Irishman in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. The only way that can be construed as sectarian is by highlighting that it doesn't included Jews, Muslims, Hindus and whoever else. That can be fixed though.

And just so we're clear - a belief in Irish independence and a desire to unite the country are not sectarian goals. There exist protestant nationalists, you know.

donegalfella wrote: »

Unionism is sectarian..

Nope. Theres catholics in the Conservative and Unionist party across the water, for instance......

Erin Go Brath

Otacon wrote: »

Unless they are all frozen and can be revived, I don't think that would be a problem.

Hilarious! Seriously a return to British rule would be disastrous for us. In a time of recession and cutbacks the Westminister Govt would be more than happy for Ireland to bear the brunt rather than have the 'more important' people from London and SE England having to suffer.

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

So theres at least two people in Ireland who loathe Irelands history in such a way then.

I don't "loathe Ireland's history". I've frequently made the point that if we as a nation spent more time looking optimistically to the future rather than wallowing in seething resentment of the past, we'd be in a much better state in the present.

jank

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't "loathe Ireland's history". I've frequently made the point that if we as a nation spent more time looking optimistically to the future rather than wallowing in seething resentment of the past, we'd be in a much better state in the present.

Yet the OP has worded a pretty reasonable and grounded call for a petition for all Irishmen of all backgrounds to sign this as a way of maybe moving forward yet that is wallowing in the past.....

I agree there are some people who like to look at the past but ironicly its not the OP and the people who think this is a good idea.

Jesus1222

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

Show me a country which does. Please. I think we are remarkably forward looking these days. Anti-Irish comments are unwelcome too I think. Travel to any country in the world and it won't take you too long to dig up petty nationalistic opinions even amongst otherwise perfectly affable people. We are no different or worse.

Jesus1222

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Saw this mentioned on another board and thought I'd give it a bit of an airing here.
Seems like a decent idea to me. Move the June bank holiday forward by a week in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen.
No cost to taxpayer, ideal opportunity for voluntary groups to do something on that day to promote equality, minority religions, the Irish language, freedom, human rights and universal brotherhood (and sisterhood, I guess!)

http://www.petitiononline.com/may1798/petition.html

I would agree with this idea. I admire the multi-denominational makeup of the United Irishment and their ideals. I think this could be used to promote similar messages today.

I suppose this makes be a bog-living, backward-looking, insular, rabidly pro-IRA, Guinness drinking twat who sings "A Nation Once Again" at least twice a week.