Insulin spikes / the PWO shake

Khannie

So....there's something in the back of my brain that says: Insulin spikes aren't all good.

On days where I'm training twice in the day I'll usually only have 6 hours recovery time and on those days I'm happy to go with the usual PWO shake thing because I want to be in peak condition starting the 2nd session, but on other days (days with only 1 session) I'm not so sure. I recently read an article which said that the amount of carbs required (when including protein in the mix) to stop catabolism PWO (note: Not to minimise recovery time) was fairly low.

So....to those that know better than I do....what say you? Would just eating PWO have any really detrimental effect v's a high GI + whey shake on days where I have 22+ hours to recover? Or, let's say a whey shake with a small amount of carbs in it + eating shortly after.

Khannie

Hanley: For reference, this is the bumped thread.

I've dropped the carbs in my PWO shake to 10g of dextose on days where I'm only training once. I'd have 30g of protein in the shake. I will generally consume some kind of carb-y drink before and during training though (usually with some bcaa's in it). I will tend to eat relatively soon after training also (always within 2 hours, usually within 1).

My goal is nearly always not to gain anything (including muscle :eek:) except strength and / or anaerobic endurance, so I'm probably slightly different to most.

Thoughts / criticism welcome.

crotalus667

Khannie wrote: »

.
I've dropped the carbs in my PWO shake to 10g of dextose

That's way to little , the optimum amount is .8 of a gram per kg of body weight , with .4 of protein per Kg of body weight , this is of course dependent on the rest of your diet (ie if you have a tolerance from eating sugary crap all the time) the bottom line is this formula works best any thing else will not be as good.

Ps

next meal within the hour of PWO shake

Hanley

crotalus667 wrote: »

That's way to little , the optimum amount is .8 of a gram per kg of body weight , with .4 of protein per Kg of body weight , this is of course dependent on the rest of your diet (ie if you have a tolerance from eating sugary crap all the time) the bottom line is this formula works best any thing else will not be as good.

Ps

next meal within the hour of PWO shake

What's "optimal"? Optimal for who, and optimal for what? Absolutes aren't cool....


Khannie said his goal with 10g was to prevent catabolism. Not promote anabolism, so to that end it might work. I honestly don't know tho...

Khannie, maybe you can tell us where you read the article you referred to?

g'em

Khannie wrote: »

So....there's something in the back of my brain that says: Insulin spikes aren't all good.

You've got a clever brain

This is a really, really interesting area and tbh the research surrounding it is still thin on the ground. Not only that but the "facts" that some studies have produced have been bastardised beyond recognition or manipulated for personal gain by supplement companies who want to use "science" to promote their wares.

The carbs-post-workout line has been fed to us so often now that it's become dogmatic but I started to question it myself not that long ago. The need for carbs post-workout is (imho) very goal-dependent. In my case, where hypertorphy is unimportant and low body-fat is primary, carbs are simply not my friend. My training is technique heavy, DOMS light, so I have no real need for glycogen replenishment to the same extreme that a BBer or a PLer would. To that mind I've found cutting out carbs post-workout not to hinder my progress at all.

Mauro Di Pasquale explores this further in this article - a not entirely unbiased one either of course given that he has his own product to sell but still an interesting read. I'll see can I find some more supporting info...

crotalus667

Hanley wrote: »

Khannie said his goal with 10g was to prevent catabolism.

that’s the whole point of the insulin spike (10g's just wont spike it enough) , “rushing everything in ASAP will stop catabolism and promote anabolism” they go hand in had so it’s kind of hard to separate them, the extent of the anabolism will be determined by the workout , I remember Chris Aceto talking about a different way of spiking the insulin during a low carb diet, I think it was 3 scoops of protein on their own he reckoned it was sufficient to stop catabolism and start the recovery process at a slightly slower pace.

Hanley wrote: »

Khannie, maybe you can tell us where you read the article you referred to?

+1

If you really want to a lesser spike the next best alternative IMO is a PWO meal straight after your workout just some thing simple meat on white bread

g'em

Another good read:

The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths - by Dave Barr

Again, it's an article written on a supplement site but the references cited hold true. He makes significant reference to this particular article by Tipton et al. (2001), I don't know if there's anything more recent than this floating around.

Bit pressed for time so I'll get back to discussing it in a bit...

mloc

It should also be kept in mind that whey protein (in particular as proteins go, and more so when taken without fat) will cause a fairly siginificant insulin spike itself, with or without glucose.

Khannie

Thanks for the replies.

Hanley wrote: »

Khannie, maybe you can tell us where you read the article you referred to?

I went back through my browsing history (on this computer at least) and found this. Doesn't ring bells as the article I read, but contains much of the same information (i.e. that to prevent PWO catabolism you don't need a huge spike).

crotalus667 wrote: »

this is of course dependent on the rest of your diet (ie if you have a tolerance from eating sugary crap all the time)

I eat very little crap. Outside of PWO dextrose, the only simple sugars I'd have would be in the pre workout drink and 1 or 2 biscuits a day I'd have with my coffee (obviously there are occasional exceptions to that ).

Remember now....I'm not looking for the lowest possible recovery time on days where I'm only training once. Also, I would have some insulin swimming around from the pre/during workout drink.


G'em: Interesting read that. Thanks. I'm a bit like yourself; I'd take stuff from bb.com and t-nation with a pinch of salt.

edit: Bit of a time lag between me starting and ending this post, so interesting 2nd article also. Cheers.

And not to forget....

g'em wrote: »

You've got a clever brain

Why thank ye ma'am. *tips hat*

brianthebard

Should there be any noticeable effect from using a pwo shake, immediately after or even a few hours/next day? I've used a USN product with about 45g carbs, I've mixed 2 scoops of protein with about 20g of glucose, and I've had just plain whey shakes after training and I've never noticed any real difference, apart from possibly being a little more satisfied by the first product (it was really yummy). I started adding glucose cause I saw so many people here talking about it, but now I'm thinking I get enough carbs during the day anyways, is it really warranted, especially if as mloc says whey on its own causes a similar but smaller effect as whey+glucose?

mloc

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm thinking I get enough carbs during the day anyways, is it really warranted, especially if as mloc says whey on its own causes a similar but smaller effect as whey+glucose?

What I suppose you have to keep in mind here is that insulin is really only a facilitator in recovery. To explain it a bit better...

When you eat foods, of any kind, it triggers a release of insulin. Obviously, different foods cause different responses. High GI foods causes a larger release of insulin and so on. This insulin then enters the bloodstream and gets to work.

It's the effect of insulin rather than the release itself that is of benefit. Insulin is a hormone that encourages the cells in your body to take up glucose, proteins and other nutrients from the blood. This is turn can promote anabolism. The thing is, if there is no/little glucose in your blood at the time, your cells aren't going to be able to take it up. So perhaps its best to think about all this in a bit more depth; I wouldn't recommend looking for an insulin spike for the sake of it, it's only of real use when the nutrients you want are present in circulation, e.g. post eating. Otherwise, your insulin system is essentially firing blanks.