Should the Irish Education system be reformed

RonMexico

I would like to know what is going on regarding English as a subject. The amount of people entering third-level to study English who can't spell or construct a sentence is shocking. Having to teach grammar to first year students in college is a joke.

JC 2K3

Agree with point 1.

Don't really understand point 2.

Completely and utterly disagree with point 3 and find the notion reprehensible.

As for point 4, you need a pass, a D3, at ordinary level. If you can't manage that then you're not being discriminated against, you just have no place in college.

Peep O'Day

real life skills need to be taught IMO like driving. i think it is austria or germany that teach how to drive in their schools, it would be extremely beneficial but then again it probably would never happen what with all the "driving schools" losing out on money.
if people from a young age were taught how to drive properly over the course of their education i think you wouldnt find what happens now - people being excellent for the few months coming up for the test, excelling at the test then driving poorly once the test is over. people would have gotten used to driving with care and developed good habits which i believe they would bring with them onto the roads.

something like this would be far more beneficial to irish society than philosophy, comparative study or other such bs as this would save lives!

Earthhorse

Other than providing a fully state funded system (i.e. a system not so reliant on the churches) the main thing that needs to happen is the introduction of a comprehensive Physical Education course. This would include, but not be limited to:

• Physical Fitness: How to stretch/warm up, exercise basics
• Physical health: hygiene, food selection and preparation (i.e. cooking)
• Relaxation: Meditation, Yoga, Tai Chi, self-hypnosis or some other form of gentle exercise
• First Aid
• Sex Education

I can expand on any of the above but I think they are fairly self-explanatory. We face huge problems in society today as a result of the above not being taught, primarily in the form of an obesity epidemic and the related health problems that go along with it.

If proper time was spent on the above throughout a person's education I think a lot of people would be leading healthier and happier lives.

hupyago

I think its the small things that make a difference like clubs such as scouts
outdoors activities and things to do instead of just hanging around like if there was a music room etc in the school like they have in other countries
there should be more counselling done with young people in school to explore their gifts and talents and their potential outside of school in the real world
also I think their shoukld be more em,phasis on teaching life skills
ie: what you need to know to live in society
also I think mentorship from older people should be given a chance
anything would be better than sitting inside a grey lump of concrete all day
being pumped full of boring information most of the day
also there should be more outdoor activities and interaction with nature
and creative projects
I think they could also do charity fundraisers such as music and stand up gigs
it would be a chance for the messers to channel their funny side constructively
also every school should have a good library facility
if not just a reading program that they can relate to
not just some romantic literature
this project http://www.ideascampaign.ie/
hopefully will have some solutions for good education
although they're at the action plan stage now (past the submitting ideas stage)
personally most of my education has been outside of mainstream education
through 'the school of life'
and independent study from the internet and books I've bought
'you've gotta make it happen'

I'd reform it by scrapping the extra points you get for doing subjects in Irish. Maybe have bonus points for projects in subjects, maybe just increase the number of projects you've to do in the courses.

Breaktown

#15 wrote: »

The emphasis needs to be on speaking, speaking, speaking. If we reach a situation where we have enough confident speakers of Gaeilge, everything else should follow after that. Literature etc is a nice idea, but pointless without fluency in the language.
It will take true courage to reform the way Gaeilge is taught (the primary curriculum is definitely on the right track, if it is taught properly).
The second thing is that Gaeilge can not exist in the bubble of education.
People need to start using it in a real life context. I'm learning German at the minute, not out of a book, but from my GF. I use German social networking sites, other websites, talk to German friends, use things in German etc etc. I would say I make mistakes 80% of the time, but I'm learning as I go. People need to get over their fears of speaking Irish - who cares if we make mistakes, we just need to practice. We will erase the mistakes eventually.
Putting the blame on the education sector is not seeing the full picture.

I agree and this should be done with French/German etc also. After 5 years of "learning" German in school, I could barely speak a word. It's all about vocabularly lists, grammer rules and literature and not about actually speaking the language. I started to teach myself last year as I want to become fluent and I've learnt more from a few audio courses and speaking with German people than I did in school and I've improved a lot.

mental07 wrote: »

Irish is taught quite well at primary level, I think. Probably because the emphasis is on speaking and understanding. Then you go on to second level and they try to teach Irish like they teach English. Big problem.

I loved Irish in primary school. I was really good at it but then in secondary it ended up being just about an exam and not the language. I ended up hating it and did pass Irish for my leaving cert.

mental07

Breaktown wrote: »

I loved Irish in primary school. I was really good at it but then in secondary it ended up being just about an exam and not the language. I ended up hating it and did pass Irish for my leaving cert.

Loved it in primary school too. It's not an exaggeration to say that I could speak better Irish at age 12 than I could at age 17. Like you I ended up really disliking it, especially during Leaving Cert cycle. I did honours but was really disappointed with my grade.

Agree with you about German learning too. I did it in school for 5 years and had a teacher that was focussed on results/results/results. I did well in both Junior Cert and Leaving Cert but I was constantly frustrated in class at the focus on grammar and random vocabulary.

mercuroman

Peep O'Day wrote: »

real life skills need to be taught IMO

What are your parents for? Do you want schools to potty train as well? Real life skills you learn in "real life" not in school

metamorphosis

After spending a couple of months Studying in NY i have absolute praise for the educational system here!!! Well - it's far from mperfect but on a much better footing than the states secondary school wise.

The reasons scholarships are so highly valued in the US is becuse it can cost the average family $30,000 anually to snd there kid to college. Here your talking a LOT less than that. It cost me for accomadation, fees etc. 16,000ish for 4 years according to MA - leaving out the food i hoarded from home. That's in Limerick. Would be more for Dublin etc. Even if fees were brought back in your still not really looking at figures like that for the average family.

I went to SUNY university in upstate NY and i was a junior there for a semester i,e the equivilant of a 3rd year here and let me tell you they are fed with a spoon by some of their lecturers. I was shocked. Here i was paying my own way to NY and paying my own way to study over there for a semester, not taking a pinch from Ma or Da, as it should be, and these kids have everything handed to them form teachers, parents. Complete culture shock.

I would strongly agree with introducing non exam subjects like a bit of psych/sociology and political theory. In college the game has changed - no regurgitation and everything to be cited and referenced. This could maybe be incorporated a bit into the leaving perhaps?

In the states too you can pick and do a subject like a science one and pick and arts one and an engeneering one. i thought that was great as once you picked a major you were free (relatively) to chose whatever other modules you liked form whatever areas you liked. Gave way for a more rounded degree i thought

5318008!

There's way too many work-hours in a school say for primary school, they should be playing and developing skills other the acedemic. I don't see any reason why primary school can't be more fun.

In secondary school;

A lot more emphasis needs to be put on developing skills and actually truly understanding things rather than just learning things off for an exam.

I know many people who have achieved As in the leaving only to be clueless years later when asked questions on the subject.

Most importantly, i think independant learning needs to be fostered in people from a young age. Formal education is massively inefficient and will only ever get you so far.

Alun

RonMexico wrote: »

I would like to know what is going on regarding English as a subject. The amount number of people entering third-level to study English who can't spell or construct a sentence is shocking. Having to teach grammar to first year students in college is a joke.

Fixed that for you. Countable versus non-countable nouns

Fighting Irish

you should have to do irish and maths and everything else is a choice subject

mental07

Fighting Irish wrote: »

you should have to do irish and maths and everything else is a choice subject

Er...English?

p1akuw47h5r3it

I think you should pick 7/8 subjects in 5th yr (the same as it is now) and by the end of 5th yr you can drop 3/4 (the ones you dislike the most) and just concentrate on the other 4 ( the ones you like the most).

I think the LC total points tally should be 400 (to accomadate doin 4 subjects).

I think this because a lot of time is wasted trying to study the subjects that you don't like. This makes you 1.dislike study and
2.reduces the amount of time you have to study the subjects you like.

Morgase

Riddle101 wrote: »

(4)Maths should not really be an option for getting into College. This is a tricky subject becuase this is where I and a lot of people fall down. I was good at most of my subjects, but Maths was my worst subject in school, I hated it and because I am bad at Maths, it prevents me from getting into a decent college, so I have to go the long way and do Third Level colleges in order to get into a degree course in a decent college. Not that i'm saying third level colleges aren't decent, it I'm talking about Universities and Institutes. Maths is sort of nessesary for getting into most college, and it stops a lot of people who are weak at Maths but good at everything else from getting in. Of course i'm sure if Maths was disregaurded then most people wouldn't have a problem getting into college, but I'm just saying that college shoudl abolish this rule.

I've heard this from so many people who have done LC Maths. In my opinion, there are two main reasons why people dislike maths so much.

1) Maths teaching in Ireland is sometimes not good enough, and if a person doesn't understand the very basics they cannot progress. Some teachers are plain just not able to teach the subject. The ones who can, aren't emphasising the real world applications for the subject. 2) There is almost a culture, a sort of pride, in saying "oh I'm no good at maths".

rebel girl 15

Regarding Maths - it is also the amount of time that honours Maths takes to do well in it, it is nearly like having two subjects. There are not many real world applications for maths, but as well as that, students must be able to understand maths to actually do it, whereas in other subjects you can learn off stuff and mould it to fit a question, in maths you need to understand the syllabus

GLaDOS

Irish should be optional at leaving cert. If people don't want to do it, forcing them isn't going to remedy the problem.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Morgase wrote: »

I've heard this from so many people who have done LC Maths. In my opinion, there are two main reasons why people dislike maths so much.

1) Maths teaching in Ireland is sometimes not good enough, and if a person doesn't understand the very basics they cannot progress. Some teachers are plain just not able to teach the subject. The ones who can, aren't emphasising the real world applications for the subject. 2) There is almost a culture, a sort of pride, in saying "oh I'm no good at maths".

Anyone who can't do pass maths is lazy. It's so simple.

Honours is a different story tho.

(pass maths student)

rebel girl 15

Earthhorse wrote: »

Other than providing a fully state funded system (i.e. a system not so reliant on the churches) the main thing that needs to happen is the introduction of a comprehensive Physical Education course. This would include, but not be limited to:

• Physical Fitness: How to stretch/warm up, exercise basics
• Physical health: hygiene, food selection and preparation (i.e. cooking)
• Relaxation: Meditation, Yoga, Tai Chi, self-hypnosis or some other form of gentle exercise
• First Aid
• Sex Education

I can expand on any of the above but I think they are fairly self-explanatory. We face huge problems in society today as a result of the above not being taught, primarily in the form of an obesity epidemic and the related health problems that go along with it.

If proper time was spent on the above throughout a person's education I think a lot of people would be leading healthier and happier lives.

Physical education should be made more important - we're down near the bottom of time allocated to the subject.


Time allocation (minutes per week) for PE in EU primary schools

Country 2000 2007
Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum

Austria 100 200 100 200
Belgium 100 120 100 100
Bulgaria 120 120 100 150
Cyprus 90 90 80 80
Czech Republic 90 135 90 135
Denmark 90 100 90 90
Estonia 90 135 135 135
Finland 90 90 90 90
France 240 240 120 240
Germany 90 180 60 150
Greece 90 90 90 135
Hungary 90 90 112 225
Ireland 30 60 30 60
Italy 100 120 60 120
Latvia 120 120 80 80
Lithuania 90 90 35 45
Luxembourg 100 135 100 100
Malta 90 90 150 150
Netherlands 50 100 45 90
Poland 135 135 135 180
Portugal 150 180 90 135
Romania 100 100 100 100
Slovakia 90 135 90 135
Slovenia 135 135 45 135
Spain 60 60 100 180
Sweden 110 110 100 100
United Kingdom 30 120 30 130



Time allocation (minutes per week) for PE in EU secondary schools

Country 2000 2007
Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum

Austria 100 200 50 200
Belgium 150 150 100 150
Bulgaria 120 120 135 135
Cyprus 90 90 45 135
Czech Republic 90 90 90 135
Denmark 90 100 60 60
Estonia 90 90 90 90
Finland 90 90 45 90
France 120 240 90 240
Germany 90 180 60 135
Greece 90 90 90 135
Hungary 90 135 90 225
Ireland 45 120 57 120
Italy 100 120 120 120
Latvia 120 120 80 80
Lithuania 90 90 45 45
Luxembourg 45 150 125 125
Malta 45 90 45 90
Netherlands 50 100 90 120
Poland 90 135 135 180
Portugal 150 180 180 180
Romania 100 100 100 100
Slovakia 135 135 45 135
Slovenia 90 90 90 180
Spain 60 60 110 120
Sweden 110 110 60 60
United Kingdom 60 120 50 120

coffee_cake

If people cannot do maths, perhaps it should be taught in a different way. Honours maths was a joke the year I did it, and I'll bet it's been getting easier every year since - I remember we used to look at past papers from 10 years previously, in complete awe. Far too many people seem proud to announce they're useless at maths, like it's fashionable. Abolishing basic maths (not even honours, but pass) as a college requirement would just be silly.

I also don't agree someone should go to college because they can play sports. College is not about sports, it's about academic education. You want to play football, do it on your own time or join a pro. team.

rebel girl 15

bluewolf wrote: »

If people cannot do maths, perhaps it should be taught in a different way. Honours maths was a joke the year I did it, and I'll bet it's been getting easier every year since - I remember we used to look at past papers from 10 years previously, in complete awe. Far too many people seem proud to announce they're useless at maths, like it's fashionable. Abolishing basic maths (not even honours, but pass) as a college requirement would just be silly.

I also don't agree someone should go to college because they can play sports. College is not about sports, it's about academic education. You want to play football, do it on your own time or join a pro. team.

there is a new LC maths syllabus, but not sure if it is going to be rolled out country wide

Morgase

Cheyenne Shaggy Hammock wrote: »

Anyone who can't do pass maths is lazy. It's so simple.

Honours is a different story tho.

(pass maths student)

You're right, I think most people should be well able for pass maths. But I do think that with better teaching, more people would be able for honours maths.

rebel girl 15

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Irish should be optional at leaving cert. If people don't want to do it, forcing them isn't going to remedy the problem.

I'd like to see two Irish subjects - one compulsary where you have to learn how to speak the language and basic grammer, and the other as an option to do the poetry and prois. By keeping the speaking part compulsary, more and more people will be speaking our native language.

If Des Bishop can learn Irish in 11 months and speak it fluently, then I don't see why not!

Rebelheart

Dónal wrote: »

I'd reform it by scrapping the extra points you get for doing subjects in Irish. Maybe have bonus points for projects in subjects, maybe just increase the number of projects you've to do in the courses.

Why? If you are doing everything through Irish you are clearly academically operating at a higher level to somebody doing it through English. Some people may not like this fact, but it stands. The fact that they still don't have the books in Irish for many subjects makes things even more difficult for students. They should be appropriately rewarded for excelling beyond other students.

Also, what about the bonus points for an A in Honours Maths?

coffee_cake

Rebelheart wrote: »

Also, what about the bonus points for an A in Honours Maths?

Seriously lads, the longer everyone convinces themselves maths is this mystical up-there impossible subject, the more we'll get complaining "I can't do maths" and everyone will just pat them on the back. An A in honours maths should get the same points as any other honours A. There are a lot of students who would be talented at maths and awful at languages - are you going to single them out for bonus points too?

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

there is a new LC maths syllabus, but not sure if it is going to be rolled out country wide

Great, that's all we need; destroy the Irish education system to pander to laziness and "but it's hard..." ><
Assuming the new syllabus is easier. Which I suppose it would be, given past trends.

Rebelheart

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I'd like to see two Irish subjects - one compulsary where you have to learn how to speak the language and basic grammer, and the other as an option to do the poetry and prois. By keeping the speaking part compulsary, more and more people will be speaking our native language.

If Des Bishop can learn Irish in 11 months and speak it fluently, then I don't see why not!

I'd agree with this. When I did Irish in uni they used CLT (Communicative Language Teaching) where we sat around and learnt Irish through conversation and so forth in the same manner that French, English, Spanish and other languages are thought. I learnt more Irish in my first year of this than in all my secondary school.

Conversation Irish is the key, and Deasún Mac an Easpaigh is inspiring!

xOxSinéadxOx

people giving out about how there should be more emphasis on the spoken irish need to cop on. you've been doing irish since jnr infants! you'd want to be fluent by the time you reach 6th year. the problem is obviously the teaching of irish in primary schools not in secondary schools. If you go on to do a foreign language in college you'll have to study literature. I mean by the time you reach 1st year you'll have been learning irish for 8 years! doing written irish and spoken irish. also languages are easier to pick up when you're young

xOxSinéadxOx

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I think you should pick 7/8 subjects in 5th yr (the same as it is now) and by the end of 5th yr you can drop 3/4 (the ones you dislike the most) and just concentrate on the other 4 ( the ones you like the most).

I think the LC total points tally should be 400 (to accomadate doin 4 subjects).

I think this because a lot of time is wasted trying to study the subjects that you don't like. This makes you 1.dislike study and
2.reduces the amount of time you have to study the subjects you like.

just because you don't like a subject doesn't mean you shouldn't be educated in it.

mental07

I had an excellent, well-respected teacher for Junior Cert maths (honours) and I struggled a lot of the time. I actually really liked maths, but for me personally, it was just difficult. Not long into 5th year I went and had a chat with the teacher (the same one I'd had for Junior Cert) and requested that I be moved to one of the pass classes as the honours standard was just too high for me. She agreed.

Pass is a doddle to be honest, but I feel the teacher was my downfall for the Leaving - she's just one of those teachers who, well, can't teach (general student consensus, it's not just me moaning!). I ended up barely scraping a C in pass, which is shocking!!! I did my best but just couldn't make the grade. Maths was just my weak point, unfortunately.