Michael O Brien on RTE's Q&A

Het-Field

Most powerful performance by any audience member in the shows history. He made mince meat out of the church and the state. A Brave Brave man

Who saw it ?

thebman

Yeah it was very powerful and filled with emotion and you couldn't help but feel for the guys cause.

Didn't think much of the rest of the show though. One thing that really annoyed me was a comment read that the church were not responsible for the abuse but Irish society and the government were responsible which I felt was a disgusting comment to make.

People will do anything to delude themselves into thinking the church can do no wrong.

siobhan.murphy

poor bastard,but at least he has been able to get himself a lovely wife to help him through a very rough life.

Joey the lips

My father is 72 this year, my father told me that this was known to be going on when he was in his late teens. Welll known! but it was associated with Girls being pregnant, orphens and farmers kids where the mother would die and they would be put into care

There is no doubt in my mind that the church was the overall guilty party But I believe the state was no better in it's role. It had to know! It did nothing, further more that women for the life of me I cannot think of her name! that took the case to the high courts and lost the govermnet of today are sending her case notes to victums in asking them to settle out of court!

While we are not individually guilty as a nation we are all guilty, our goverment of today is guilty our parents were guilty of not stopping it and the baxtards that wear they cloth! if there is a hell I hope to meet them there cause nothing would give me greater pleasure than to watch them burn forever!

Sorry for the rant. Its all sickening. Thanks

ninty9er

I agree that it's completely sickening, but to place the nub of blame on either church or state is too simplistic. The real balme lies with the individuals who perpetrated the abuse and the management that did nothing about it.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but I believe most of it lies with individuals.

paddyland

No, the 'state' didn't rape or bugger those children, individuals did.

But there will always be 'individuals' in all walks of life, who perpetrate sickening offence on others, this child abuse being a most horrific example.

Therefore it is the duty of the 'state' to put some order on things, to DEAL with things, as it were. You cannot prevent every horror from occuring, but you can bring sanction on those who perpetrate it, and support to those who are victim to it.

No, the 'state' didn't bugger those children, but the FF party made a good job of buggering the dirty little indemnity deal done with the representatives of the perpetrators.

capsubsidy.com

paddyland wrote: »

No, the 'state' didn't rape or bugger those children, individuals did..

True however the institutions who were aware of the abuse and did nothing about it are complicit. They should have to pay reparations.

I don't see how hard it is. The state should pay the victims then take the institutions for every penny they have.

Villain

I can't remember ever seeing anything like that before, brave brave man who showed that this is far beyond politics and FF and FG need to understand that

Joey the lips

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

True however the institutions who were aware of the abuse and did nothing about it are complicit. They should have to pay reparations.

I don't see how hard it is. The state should pay the victims then take the institutions for every penny they have.

The state might not have done it but they knew it was going on! They just never realised the extent!

BlackWizard

Got this off the property pin.

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22176&p=256499#p256499

It's powerful stuff.

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97i9y3941

i seen that last night,and i say fair play to the man,he took advantage of live tv to tell his frustrations of himself and the public itself of the gov protecting pedos

jank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

I am ashamed of the government, the church and everyone who stood by while this happened to others.
It makes me ashamed that I am Irish.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

The country is morally and financially bankrupt.

irish_bob

Het-Field wrote: »

Most powerful performance by any audience member in the shows history. He made mince meat out of the church and the state. A Brave Brave man

Who saw it ?

i was frozen to the couch , never heard such a powerfull speech in my entire life

spadder

Jesus, powerful stuff. Thanks for the video, Dempsey and Varadker stunned. We need a spokesman like this for the health service

walshb

As bad as those vile creeps were who actually committed the offences, the State knowing and turning a blind eye is the most wicked of the lot!

The perpetrators couldn't help themselves, they are simply evil and despicable
humans. The state however knew of the atrocity and covered and made excuses and actually allowed it to continue. Without the State's approval, it would never have been so widespread and awful!

Fratton Fred

Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »

"And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, "

I believe the term "Epic Fail would be appropriate.

snubbleste

Why do i get the feeling he'd vote FF no matter what they did ?

Marshy

snubbleste wrote: »

Why do i get the feeling he'd vote FF no matter what they did ?

Because he basically said so.

But for someone who's been involved with a party for as long as he seem to have been it's obviously a difficult decision to turn his back on them.

Jason Mc

Let's get this straight. The catholic church as an instituition is an absolute disgrace for allowing this to happen to the most vulnerable in our society

This talk about individuals holds no credence. They instituationally hid what was going on and the sooner the numbers that grovel to their altars drop off the better.

What sort of religion teaches it people from an early age that they are sinners? Oh yeah the ones that are sinning themselves...

The state as a whole should be ashamed and every effort should be put in to bring any perpitrators of these deeds to justice.

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

I agree that it's completely sickening, but to place the nub of blame on either church or state is too simplistic. The real balme lies with the individuals who perpetrated the abuse and the management that did nothing about it.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but I believe most of it lies with individuals.

Stop trying to pass the buck.

FF, FG, Lab all parties have a lot to answer.
They must have known something about these homes, these schools but yet it was convenient to do nothing or politically wise not to go against the church.
Irish society has a lot to answer.

The dept of education and justice have a lot to answer.

Yes it was individuals that carried out the evil acts, but they were protected both by the organisaitons of the chruch and the church itself.
To this day organisations such as the christian brothers are still trying to cover up and deny involvement.

They were also protected by the authorities of the state and the crimes were allowed go on for 60 odd years ffs.

A big reason people are angry with FF is because of the shameful contract that the ff government of 1997/2002 drew up with the religious orders.
Even worse it's architect is still defending the indefensible.
The breakdown of who would pay what is bad enough, but the indemnity clause that appears to exist is shocking.
Remove christian brother influence from education, take over the schools. I don't give a flying f*** if the schools are held by a trust named after the founder of the organisation.
He founded an organisation that condoned the rape and abuse of boys round the world.
Do what the Canadians did and bankrupt them.

As the brave speaker on Q&A last night said it is just not the money, it is the way that victims have been treated. Another prominent example is the way the lady who sued the state over being abused by dept of education employed and paid teacher. This time it was pass the buck to the school management.
That case shows how little we learnt from the haemophiliacs case and the way victims of state inadequacies and neglect are treated.
Protect the state at all costs appears to be the motto.


FF should be proud that Michael O'Brien had represented them and still appears to stand by the party, but FFS the party should be ashamed that michael woods was ever a member never mind one of it's government ministers.

vincenzolorenzo

irish_bob wrote: »

i was frozen to the couch , never heard such a powerfull speech in my entire life

+1. Unbelievable speech. Its an absolute disgrace what went on and the church should be punished far more harshly than they have been. yes the state obviously has a duty to pay as well as they didn't do anything about it at the time but they're not 90% liable ffs. Thank you Michael O Brien for your bravery and for telling it like it is

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Read even a couple of these 2600 pages and it makes you want to puke. Animals, any of them still alive should be locked up and throw away the key

bmaxi

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

+1. Unbelievable speech. Its an absolute disgrace what went on and the church should be punished far more harshly than they have been. yes the state obviously has a duty to pay as well as they didn't do anything about it at the time but they're not 90% liable ffs. Thank you Michael O Brien for your bravery and for telling it like it is

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Read even a couple of these 2600 pages and it makes you want to puke. Animals, any of them still alive should be locked up and throw away the key

Church and State were inseparable at the time. I grew up in the north inner city and I can still see the processions of State cars going in to the Archbishop's Palace in Drumcondra, to ask advice of "His Grace".

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

FF, FG, Lab all parties have a lot to answer.
They must have known something about these homes, these schools but yet it was convenient to do nothing or politically wise not to go against the church.

Of course they knew and the Gardai did too, but at that time the church had more power and ran the country, they were either afraid to act or had a nice deal going on with the them.
You only have to look back 30 - 40 years to see what our country was like; legal condom sales were allowed for the first time in 1978, Playboy Magazine banned in 1959 and was not made legal to sell until 1996.

The Church preach and teach so called Christian values, morals, to respect one another etc... to all their followers everyday. They now need to take a "leaf from their own book", they should stand up and do a whole lot more, give the names of those who committed such acts to the Gardai and do all in their power to bring justice to all of the victims.

I don't know how anyone could have any respect for the Church now.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

I agree that it's completely sickening, but to place the nub of blame on either church or state is too simplistic. The real balme lies with the individuals who perpetrated the abuse and the management that did nothing about it.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but I believe most of it lies with individuals.

Get real. Fianna Fail, Micheal Woods and Bertie Ahern indemnified the Church against any further suits. The people are angry because they are now getting the two fingers from the church again, and the Government are willing to idly sit by. Its incredible, over 70 years after the enactment of buntracht na h'Eireann, and Fianna Fail still have a vested interest in the church.


Remember, also the church and the state were the managers of this matter. They kept it quiet, and kept denying it. I still remember (as a 11 year old) watching Christine Buckley's "Dear Daughter" documentary in 1996, and the next morning listening to one of the impugned nuns on the radio claiming there was no abuse.

This is most certainly Ireland's biggest shame, and lowest ebb.

kc66

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Read even a couple of these 2600 pages and it makes you want to puke. Animals, any of them still alive should be locked up and throw away the key

Theres some sick stuff in there alright. Just read a few pages. What a pity their names are withheld. They should be outed publicly.

Zuiderzee

I dont know all the details, but after watching Q&A and listening to CORI on radio my gut feeling is

1) This Sunday, people should simply not attend mass or give funds to the church

2) If People are angry and upset should use the internet to arrange something like silent peaceful protests outside the churches or parish houses, particularly of the orders who were involved in abuse - sort of like Anonymous arranged.

3) Keep up the boycott until the compensation and apologies are in place
The agreement seems to be ****. Re-negotiate

4) All 18 orders involved in abuse should be asked to consider winding up their work in the state, certainly the CBS should be disbanded.

5) Hierarchy, if they believe, really believe that this Bertie deal should be re-visited then they can join the protests. Or they can choose to resign if they continue to fail in their self appointed duty of care.

Kc66 is right, name the abusers, bring them to court, put them in jail.
I'm sorry - I know I should look at the reports, but I am so upset at Mr. O Briens statement I dont think I can look at any more.

I am in awe of Mr O Briens courage, his achievements in life despite what he went through, and his wife and families support of him.

When Mr. O Brien feels the solution is appropriate, only then people should start returning to church.

I am sorry I do not know all the details, but this is my gut feeling - and I know faith is important to people, but I for one really think that all people need to take a stand on this one.

I have seen it written here that there were failures by the state, by the people etc. - and there is merit in that - so at least lets try to put it right by acting on it.

As for the weaseling in this report!!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0526/morningireland_av.html?2550199,null,209

Sleepy

Zuiderzee wrote: »

All 18 orders involved in abuse should be asked to consider winding up their work in the state, certainly the CBS should be disbanded.

Couldn't agree more.

How our country can allow any religion influence in our education system after our country's history is beyond me...

solice

Sleepy wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

How our country can allow any religion influence in our education system after our country's history is beyond me...

Because if they didnt we wouldnt have had an education system. Dev abdicated all responsibility to education by handing the power to educate to the religious orders. It was always an agreement that the state had with the church, "educate my people and I will give you money, but I will not take responsibility". This was proven in a recent case, the name escapes me, but the state won as the constitution states "The state will provide for an education"* not that the state will provide an education.

Its in our constitution, the government has no responsibility to educate you or me.


*this may not be an exact quote of the constitution but its the jist of it

oscarBravo

It occurs to me to wonder: would there be a net cost to the state to take over responsibility for education from religious orders? Is there a cost saving involved in having the church run schools, or is it just inertia?

InFront

oscarBravo wrote: »

It occurs to me to wonder: would there be a net cost to the state to take over responsibility for education from religious orders? Is there a cost saving involved in having the church run schools, or is it just inertia?

Not sure what you mean, I take it you mean apart from buying school property from the churches? Because as far as I know the state already pays teachers salaries, which presumably is the next biggest and most significant expense.

Interestingly, there has been a deal done on the transfer of educational properties to the state in relation to child abuse reparations, except a legal constraint makes it effectively bogus.

Also, in relation to state complicity, I was looking up something this morning before work and came across this from April 1954, which makes for interesting reading

Dail Debate, April 1954 - Punishment of a schoolboy in Artane Industrial School

vincenzolorenzo

InFront wrote: »

Dail Debate, April 1954 - Punishment of a schoolboy in Artane Industrial School

Ah it was only an accident says the minister for education. Sure thats grand so

FFS:mad:

InFront

I think this portion of the minister's speech was particularly prophetic

I hope it will never happen again. I have not neglected full inquiry into the working of these schools at any time. There are conditions that should be created in all these schools, they are deficient in many things; but that will cost a good deal more money from the State than the relatively small amount that is paid now.

Given that this wa recorded in 1954, is there any clearer evidence of an abrogation of duty than

I can assure them that nothing of the like will happen again. While giving this as a guarantee to parents and knowing the difficult conditions under which the school is run, I would point out to parents that any guarantee I give them of full protection for their children is no licence to any of the children to do what they like.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.20 p.m. sine die.

goldenbrown

do not know this, remarkable piece of television history....I like Noel Whelan's observatiuon that he does not like the word 'abuse' when we are talking about rape, assault and neglect

Agent Smith

Mr. Chairman, I’m surprised at the minister there now.

First of all Mr Minister (directed at Minister Noel Dempsey) you made a bags of it in the beginning by changing the judges. You made a complete bags of it at that time, because I went to the La Foy commission and ye had seven barristers there, questioning me and telling that I was telling lies, when I told them that I got raped of a Saturday, got a merciful beating after it, and then stuffed…

… he came along the following morning and put holy communion in my mouth.

You don’t know what happened there. You haven’t the foggiest, you’re talking through your hat there. And you’re talking to a Fianna Fáil man, a former councilor and former mayor you’re talking to, that worked tooth and nail or you, for the party that you’re talking about now. Ye didn’t do it right, ye got it wrong.

Admit it.

And apologize for doing that. Because you don’t know what I feel inside me. You don’t know the hurt I am.

You said it was non-adversarial.

My God.

Seven barristers.

Throwing questions at us.

Non-stop.

I tri.. attempted to commit suicide, there’s the woman who saved me from committing suicide, on me way down from Dublin, after spending five days at the commission. Five days I spent at the commission. They brought a man over from Rome, ninety odd years of age, to tell me I was telling lies.

That I wasn’t beaten for an hour, non-stop by two of them.

By two of them.

Non-stop from head to toe without a shred of cloth on my body.

My God minister.

And could I speak to you (comment directed to Leo Varadkar, Fianna Gael), and ask your leader, would you stop making a political football of this.

You hurt this when you do that.

You tear the shreds from inside our body.

For God’s sake, try and give us some peace.

Try to give us some peace and not to continue hurting us.

That woman will tell you how many times I jump out of the bed at night with the sweat pumping out of me. Because I see these fellas at the end of the bed with their fingers doing that (gestures) to me. And pulling me in to the room, to rape me, to bugger me and bate the ****e out of me. That’s the way it is.

And you know what?

You know what, sometimes I listen to the leader of Fianna Fáil. I even listened to the apology. T’was mealy mouthed, but at least t’was an apology.

At least t’was an apology.

The Rosminians said in the report, they said they were easy on us. The first day I went to them. The first day to Rosminians in my home which is Ferryhouse in Clonmel, ’cause its the only home I know. He said “you’re in it for the money”.

We didn’t want money.

We didn’t want money. We wanted the pr… someone to stand up and say “yes, these fellas were buggered, these people were ra…”

Little girls. My daughter, oh sorry, my sister. A month old when she was put in to an institution. Eight of us from the one family, dragged by the ISPCC cruelty man. Put in to two cars, brought to the court in Clonmel. Left standing there without food or anything, and the fella in the long black frock and the white collar came along and he put us in to a van.

Not a van, a scut truck, I don’t know what you call it now. And landed us below with two hundred other boys. Two night later I was raped.

How can anyone…

You’re talking about constitution. These people would gladly say “yes” to a constitution to freeze the funds of the religous orders.

This state, this country of ours, would say “yes” to that constitition if you have to change it.

Don’t say you can’t change it.

You’re the governement of this state. You run this state. So for God’s sake stop mealy mouthing. ‘Cause I’m sick of it.

I’m sick of it.

You’re turning me away from voting Fianna Fáil which I have done from the first day that I could vote. Because. And you know me. You know me Mister Minister. You’ve met me on a number of ocassions. So you know what I’m like.

A Transcript from last Nights Q&A

Lee72

Watching Q&A last night really brought home what went on, not just listening to reports on the news or reading about it in the papers, but actually hearing that man, a man you might know or work with or see in the street telling it like it was. We hear about the compensation for victims but it's not like even at this stage that they're given a break. I mean what sort of country and people are we. Really ashamed of being Irish, does it even count for anything anymore. Would really like to see and be part of some public action as suggested earlier.

irish_bob

while i dont attend mass myself , those who do , if they really give a fig about the victims should boycott mass untill the church front up with what they owe , you dont have to go to mass to worship god , to borrow one from minister lenehan , it is nothing less than a patriotic call to duty to boycott church

thebigcheese22

After watching that clip, I was transifxed.


All I can say is wow, what bravery that man has, I hope he truly finds peace.

walshb

Was anyone listening to Joe Duffy today?

There was a man on who said he was put into
one of the institutions aged 3 for not attending
school; yes, not attending school?

It went straight over clueless Duffy's head.
He never copped that a child aged 3 would never
have been legally required to attend school.

He never mentioned it or queried it at all.
The fact is that the state and the Gardai
were complicit in all of this. It was the Gardai
who came to take the child with a court order
for not attending school.

So, anyone saying this was all to do with the perpetrators
and them alone, is far far off the mark!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ProperDeadly

Does anyone have a list of these 18 religous orders?
I've tried looking, but cant' seem to find one

juuge

kc66 wrote: »

Theres some sick stuff in there alright. Just read a few pages. What a pity their names are withheld. They should be outed publicly.

These savage rapists walk among us, they pass us on the street they walk with impunity. This has to be our worst nightmare!

Het-Field

juuge wrote: »

These savage rapists walk among us, they pass us on the street they walk with impunity. This has to be our worst nightmare!

Sickest of all is the fact that they used those same hands to offer the sacrament of communion to those unfortunates. How dare they !

Firetrap

I only heard what he said on the radio this morning and it's been haunting me all day. I'm not easily shocked but what he said certainly did the job. We've heard an awful lot of about what went on but when you see and hear an ordinary man explain in such a heartfelt articulate manner exactly what happened to him and how it has affected his life, it makes it all the more chilling.

It's a disgrace that such appalling treatment of children was allowed to go on. I don't buy for one second that nobody in authority knew. I remember my late grandmother telling me years ago (long before any stories broke) about how badly the orphans in the day school she attended were treated. It's not as if things were that hidden.

I don't think people like Michael O'Brien necessarily want money. Their lives have been scarred by the monsters into whose "care" they were entrusted. I get mad when I think of the deal Bertie Ahern & Co struck with the religious orders. These people are being denied something that should be available to all citizens of this country - justice.

Zuiderzee

Make him a senator, now, to help give the survivors some voice in the Government - the numbers are so staggering there is no question of support.
That is of course only if he is willing to work for a state that has failed him so badly as a child and an adult.

FF can ask one of the quango ex TD senators to step down if they have a shread of regret for the deal done - enough spineless bull****.

I wish more of our legal, spiritual and political reps had half the courage and decency of Mr. O Brian.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

Zuiderzee

irish_bob wrote: »

while i dont attend mass myself , those who do , if they really give a fig about the victims should boycott mass untill the church front up with what they owe , you dont have to go to mass to worship god , to borrow one from minister lenehan , it is nothing less than a patriotic call to duty to boycott church

I think people should do an Anonymous type protest.
Go to the church - but stay outside for the duration of the Mass in silent protest.
If people are of faith, then have a prayer meeting outside.

If the heirarchy and politicians really mean what they say, they can join people outside - if not - resign

citizensimon.blogspot.com

jimmycrackcorm

The whole thing will die down in a couple of days unless the Sunday papers can keep it going for another few days next week.

Pedro K

the_dark_side wrote: »

2. PICKET THE CHURCH GATES AS STRIKERS DO, ANYONE WHO PASSES IS A SCAB

While I hate the docile, seemingly spineless at times, nature of the Irish electorate I don't agree with this at all.

I have said in another post before that I wish we were more like the French, and kicked up stink.

But are you seriously telling me that picketing a church is a good idea?

No doubt the people who cross that picket would come in for some abuse and heckling by the picketeers?

No. There are people have been going to church all their lives (My mother and grandmother for example) and I certainly would not like my Mam to come home upset because she was heckled for trying to go to mass! I'd flip!

There are good people in the church. Look at the likes of Father Mernagh, who walked from his parish in munster to Dublin to protest against the churches handling of the abuse scandals, and the fact that the church tried to cover up. He's obviously a little more in the spotlight than others, but I'm sure a lot of people have memories of their local priest doing something to help out the family or community.

I'm not a religious person at all. I belong to no religious order and I pray to no God. But that being said, I still acknowledge that my local church did, and still does, do a fair amount of good work in the community. Be it, staging a bonfire at hallowe'en or helping out with the community games.

And I'm sure a lot of people posting here had a good relationship with the local priest when they were growing up, or when they were in a national school.

Likewise, I'm sure there are some people on here who suffered abuse at the hands of some of these people SCUMBAGS .

But picketing a church wouldn't help at all man.


EDIT AGAIN: Also. Fair play to Michael O Brien. That was tough to watch, and no doubt, unbelievably tough to say. Something I do not, and more than likely will not ever understand because such attrocities haven't been done to me.

Michael O Brien is a champion.

Zuiderzee

Perdro K, you are very correct in sayng there are really decent people in the church, as there are in politics.

But the organisation needs to get its act together.

The politicians have - yet again - abdicated their responsibility for this current impasse to the orders who have caused such pain.

The hierarchy are also trying to shift responsibility to those orders.

But something has to be done. I am not advocating pickets - But I do think that enough people, standing in silent protest outside during mass will make a difference. People like Father Mernagh can join them outside.

The country bears a responsibility for what happened - its time to stand for the survivors, not stand by like sheep as we did before - the hierarchchy wont do it, the politicians wont do it, we are the only ones left who can work for change.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

Pedro K

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Perdro K, you are very correct in sayng there are really decent people in the church, as there are in politics.

But the organisation needs to get its act together.

The politicians have - yet again - abdicated their responsibility for this current impasse to the orders who have caused such pain.

The hierarchy are also trying to shift responsibility to those orders.

But something has to be done. I am not advocating pickets - But I do think that enough people, standing in silent protest outside during mass will make a difference. People like Father Mernagh can join them outside.

The country bears a responsibility for what happened - its time to stand with the survivors, not go on like sheep as we did before - the hierarchchy wont do it, the politicians wont do it, we are the only ones left who can work for change.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

I think that would be a good idea. Much better than picketing certainly!

The only thing is, what's to stop the sdummers who perpetrated rape and buggery from standing outside too. They haven't been named!


With regards to the part of your post I have put in bold!

Too right! Couldn't agree more.

gazzer

If tens of thousands of pensioners can march onto the dail to protest about the medical card cuts then why the hell is the population of Ireland not having a march to show our absolute horror at what happened to these poor children and the continuous trauma that they are experiencing as adults.

I cant get my head around the fact that we are not marching on the dail and demanding that these bastards get put in jail. What is wrong with us? I am utterly ashamed to be Irish after hearing the stories of the last week. Gardai, Priests, TD's all have a part to play in this and we should be roaring at the top of our voices until justice is served.

If this doenst rise the people of Ireland up I really despair for this country.

Zuiderzee

One step at a time Pedro - First we must force change.

Once the church and politicians see that the agreement reached by Bertie is simply unaceptable then they can change it.

Then the police and the judiciary need to deal with these - and I hesitate in using the word - people.
I dont see how - in any case - that the abusers can avoid legal charges for such brutal crimes.

citizensimon.blogspot.com