Is marriage the only real committment?

SarahSassy

Is the only ‘true’ love commitment marriage? I have a friend who is with a guy over a year. They are madly in love and are living together and happy out. He was married before and it ended badly and his ex has been very horrible since with regard access to their kid. He has recently told my friend that he does not want marriage (having said he did) and that he is not sure if he will ever want kids again (they live together but his job is 2.5 hours away which means he is away about 4 nights per week) as he doenst want to be a long distance father again.

He says he loves her more than anyone before, he sees them getting old together but does not want marriage if there are no kids (and he is not sure about kids yet given the circumstances).

She is upset that he wont marry her and feels he is dodging commitment. I don’t know what to think or advise her cos they are so good together… I am a traditionalist and know I would like to get married but can you be happy without the piece of paper? Any ideas?

Otis Driftwood

Speaking on a personal level I would like to think I will get married someday.

Yes,it can be viewed as only a piece of paper but I think its more than that.

For me the idea of marriage is giving yourself to someone aswell as accepting,cherishing and loving someone as much as you love yourself.The whole marriage process stands(to me) for making the final break and truly reaching adulthood and starting your own family.

Part of it for myself is probably my Catholic upbringing.Dont get me wrong,Im a totally lapsed Catholic and only go to a Church for births,deaths and marriages but at the same time I would still like to get married in a Church.Weird eh.

As for your friend,she isnt with her fella that long so if I was her I wouldnt get too het up about the whole thing.

allabouteve

The binding and legal aspect of marraige makes it more of a commitment in practical terms, and because its harder to walk away from I suppose its more of an emotional commitment too.

SeekUp

SarahSassy wrote: »

Is the only ‘true’ love commitment marriage? … I am a traditionalist and know I would like to get married but can you be happy without the piece of paper? Any ideas?

Of course you can be happy without the piece of paper -- And there are many, many committed couples that, for whatever personal/societal reasons, aren't married.

That being said, it sounds to me that your friend and her boyfriend want different things. Piece of paper or not, I don't think true long-term happiness can occur when two people in a relationship want different things or expect different things out of that relationship.

Clare Bear

I'd be gutted if my boyfriend didn't ever want to get married. Thankfully he does. It's a big thing for me. Not the actual wedding, I don't want a typical big Irish wedding with loads of people that I don't know but something special and small so the wedding isn't my main reason for wanting it, maybe I'm just old fashioned but I can't wait for the day when I get to be someone's wife.

If he didn't want to married and I loved him I suppose I'd just have to put up with it but I know I would find it very hard because it's something I've always wanted and it's the ultimate commitment to me, knowing someone wants to tell the world that they want to spend the rest of their life with you.

Piste

I sorta see Marriage as just something that makes it harder to have a clean break. I wouldn't feel resentful or hurt if a guy refused to marry me, if he loves me he loves me, end of, marriage shouldn't change anything. If kids were involved I'd proably feel differently as I believe fathers should have equal rights to mothers so at least getting married would give him some of his rights.

Having read things on PI about people thinking who would get the house, pay alimony etc. I'm beginning to think marriage is just a load of hassle and isn't really necessary in this day and age. I might get married on my deathbead so the husband could inherit. That said, it'd be an awful pity to live with someone as a couple for years and then to die suddenly and the other person doesn't get a bean unless a will is made.

Elle Victorine

I don't ever want to get married really but I have no problem being with someone the rest of my life. I don't think a piece of paper is a guarantee of committment or true love. In fact i think it's got nothing to do with it.

Joey the lips

Heres a better thought from discussion in after hours! If we had no religion would we get married! More importantly why? Why would we need to prove to strangers we love each other. We dont invite them in when we are making love so why do we need to prove it!

I think that marriage is a commitment but the true meaning of marriage can be found in the fact that out of 100 women that get married and divorced less than a quarter get re married!

gamer

In the eyes of the law marriage is a legal contract in regard to INHERITANCE RIGHTS and financial support and various rights to property.
IE in legal terms it has all the romance and glamour of a hire purchase agreement on a VW golf or a mortgage on an overvalued apartment.
BuT its a good thing in that 50percent of couples breakup so this helps to keep all those lawyers get a little bit richer.IF you can live together 4 ten years we trhen maybe consider getting married.
ITS like pension funds and investors ,the people and clerks that run the system make money out of it no matter what happens to the public.
50percent breakdown rate does not inspire confidence.A piece of paper guarantees nothing to nobody.ITS a nice ritual 4 some people and a excuse 4 women to buy fancy dresses.

stovelid

gamer wrote: »

In the eyes of the law marriage is a legal contract in regard to INHERITANCE RIGHTS and financial support and various rights to property.
IE in legal terms it has all the romance and glamour of a hire purchase agreement on a VW golf or a mortgage on an overvalued apartment.
BuT its a good thing in that 50percent of couples breakup so this helps to keep all those lawyers get a little bit richer.IF you can live together 4 ten years we trhen maybe consider getting married.
ITS like pension funds and investors ,the people and clerks that run the system make money out of it no matter what happens to the public.
50percent breakdown rate does not inspire confidence.A piece of paper guarantees nothing to nobody.ITS a nice ritual 4 some people and a excuse 4 women to buy fancy dresses.

IT shouldn't be overlooked that IT also means that a father's guardianship rights are better (that is: merely shit as opposed to non-existent) IF the marriage breaks up.

994

gamer wrote: »

In the eyes of the law marriage is a legal contract in regard to INHERITANCE RIGHTS and financial support and various rights to property.
IE in legal terms it has all the romance and glamour of a hire purchase agreement on a VW golf or a mortgage on an overvalued apartment.
BuT its a good thing in that 50percent of couples breakup so this helps to keep all those lawyers get a little bit richer.IF you can live together 4 ten years we trhen maybe consider getting married.
ITS like pension funds and investors ,the people and clerks that run the system make money out of it no matter what happens to the public.
50percent breakdown rate does not inspire confidence.A piece of paper guarantees nothing to nobody.ITS a nice ritual 4 some people and a excuse 4 women to buy fancy dresses.

That's true, marriage has always been pretty financial. Even the wedding ring was a symbol of an exchange of wealth between families. In England, the groom handed over a purse of gold and silver after the wedding ring, and one extremely romantic German vow runs "I give you this ring as a sign of the marriage which has been promised between us, provided your father gives with you a marriage portion of 1000 Reichsthalers."

SarahSassy wrote:

She is upset that he wont marry her and feels he is dodging commitment.

Maybe that's because the last woman he "committed" to nearly ruined his life? For a man, marriage often means offering a woman your house, your children most of your money and most of your future income, and hoping that she decides not to take it.

SarahSassy

I think she can understand all his reasons and his fears... She just doesnt know if she will resent him in years to come and she doesnt want to lose him. She is late 30's - has found the man of her dreams. they are like 2 peas in a pod but this is a huge decision to make. Its an awful predicament.

Jesus Wept

Clare Bear wrote: »

it's the ultimate commitment to me, knowing someone wants to tell the world that they want to spend the rest of their life with you.

Following through on it would be commitment, proclaiming it isn't.

stovelid wrote: »

IT shouldn't be overlooked that IT also means that a father's guardianship rights are better (that is: merely shit as opposed to non-existent) IF the marriage breaks up.

Yes, but it shouldn't. It's a crap reason to have to get married.

Wibbs

994 wrote: »

Maybe that's because the last woman he "committed" to nearly ruined his life? For a man, marriage often means offering a woman your house, your children most of your money and most of your future income, and hoping that she decides not to take it.

I would be of a similar mind tbh. I haven't gone through it personally, but I've seen enough men I know who have. They lost everything pretty much. Homes that were in their family for generations, access to their children etc. They've had to completely write off a large portion of their lives. I've also seen men stay in marriages that were less than ideal for the same reason. They didn't want to lose out both emotionally and financially and lose out badly.

I don't want kids at the moment. Now that may change and in that circumstance I would defo consider mariage, for their(and mine) legal sake. But I would be very cautious I have to say. Now I would hope to be optimistic and that my marriage would thrive for both of us, but so many don't and divorce or plug away with both not thriving. I could only see it happening if prenups became legal in this country to protect both parties. Hard one.

Clare Bear

The-Rigger wrote: »

Following through on it would be commitment, proclaiming it isn't.

Obviously things don't always work out but if I do get married I intend to follow through on it, why would I want to get married otherwise?!

stovelid

The-Rigger wrote: »

Yes, but it shouldn't. It's a crap reason to have to get married.

Of course it shouldn't, but it does.

I didn't mind getting married; I liked the idea, and still enjoy it, even without the consideration of guardianship/inheritance rights, but it would be stupid for us to believe that we have demonstrated superior commitment to a couple who have lived happily together for the same amount of time.

Wibbs

Clare Bear wrote: »

Obviously things don't always work out but if I do get married I intend to follow through on it, why would I want to get married otherwise?!

I agree, but no one goes into a marriage thinking it's going to fail(or shouldnt anyway). But fail they can and when they do, it's often the man that loses out. Suicide rates among divorced men are far higher than in divorced women. Four times higher, yet the notion is often put forword that men lose out less. http://newsroom.ucr.edu/news_item.html?action=page&id=471

As I say, I've seen the aftermath and its not pretty. I have also seen good marriages and that would be my aim, but I would be damned cautious, so I can see where he's coming from if he's been through it already.

SarahSassy

There is no doubting the reasons - they are fully understood.. I guess its just to decide if she can be happy with him, no kids and no marriage.....

Corb

If she badly wants marriage and kids then she is with the wrong person regardless of how much she loves him.

GirlInterrupted

SeekUp wrote: »

Of course you can be happy without the piece of paper -- And there are many, many committed couples that, for whatever personal/societal reasons, aren't married.

Of course there are committed couples that aren't married, but I wouldn't dismiss it as just a piece of paper.

Elle Victorine wrote: »

I don't ever want to get married really but I have no problem being with someone the rest of my life. I don't think a piece of paper is a guarantee of committment or true love. In fact i think it's got nothing to do with it.

You're right. A piece of paper means nothing. Legally declaring that you love someone enough to be their next-of-kin, intend growing old with them, and are probably committed to creating a family with them does.

stovelid wrote: »

Of course it shouldn't, but it does.

I didn't mind getting married; I liked the idea, and still enjoy it, even without the consideration of guardianship/inheritance rights, but it would be stupid for us to believe that we have demonstrated superior commitment to a couple who have lived happily together for the same amount of time.

But you have demonstrated superior commitment. You've made a legal agreement. You've become relatives. You've become material partners. All those things demonstrate more commitment, the world sees you as being more than two people who have sex and share a house. Because thats what you told them when you got married.

I'm stupidly romantic about these things, but I definitely consider marraige the ultimate commitment, even though it seems almost sneered at.

I want to be all those things I mentioned, and I want it legally recognised. I don't want to be just a 'life partner' I want to be the next of kin, the wife, the person who's loved enough for the commitment to be made, the person he would have declared his intention to grow old with, the person he would want a family with, and I want it all publicly and legally recognised that I'm that important to someone, as he is to me.

And I don't like all those things being reduced to just a legal blip, or a piece of paper.

Wibbs

I agree. Totally, but I can see the OP's mates guy being reticent having gone through a divorce. As I said no one goes into a marriage thinking it'll be anything but for life and love and all that stuff. Too often the fairy tale ends on the wedding day(especially for many women IME) and finishes with "and they all lived happily ever after". Only often they don't and this guy's had his fingers burned emotionally, financially and if there are kids involved often that bond is weakened. That's a helluva wrench to want to maybe go through that again.

Now divorces can go OK, or as OK as anything like that can go, but having seen quite a few men in my time being royally screwed over, it certainly made me very cautious about doing that in the future. It's not always the ex wife's doing either. Not at all. It's just the law really doesn't favour men much and automatically the wife and mother gets the benefit of the doubt it seems. I've seen one case where she had a string of affairs(well two) then left him(and their two kids) for another guy. He's a very quiet type of chap and wanted to do right by his children and fair play to him, but he lost his house(which he's still paying for), lost custody of his kids(with visitation rights) who wanted to stay with him and he's living in a bedsit at 45, broke and largely broken. He has met someone else but there's no way he'll marry again and luckily since she doesn't want more kids, she's understanding of that and has accepted that.

GirlInterrupted

I agree. Totally, but I can see the OP's mates guy being reticent having gone through a divorce. As I said no one goes into a marriage thinking it'll be anything but for life and love and all that stuff. Too often the fairy tale ends on the wedding day(especially for many women IME) and finishes with "and they all lived happily ever after".

Of course he's recitent. But they should both decide exactly what it they want, and only then can they move forward.

I take your point about the big wedding fiesta, but I'm personally completely uninterested in the wedding, its marraige that would be important to me.

I've been lucky in that I don't have any broken marraiges in my close circle of family or friends, bar one in Italy. My parental example of marraige was incredibly positive but realistic, and I hope that if it ever get to that stage with someone I'd be the same way.

Like most people, its something I only intend to do once (assuming I meet someone etc), and I'd like to think I'd do it with my eye on the long term, not the honeymoon period where everything is rosy and life in all its forms hasn't interfered too much yet.

stovelid

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

But you have demonstrated superior commitment.

Superior to whose commitment?

I like being married very much. I chose to get married and don't regret it for a minute, but I don't feel that my commitment is superior to any other couple who live together long-term.

Am I being lectured to about what marriage entails by somebody who isn't married themselves?

People must make their own choices about how they formalize their relationships.

GirlInterrupted

stovelid wrote: »

Superior to whose commitment?

I like being married very much. I chose to get married and don't regret it for a minute, but I don't feel that my commitment is superior to any other couple who live together long-term.

Am I being lectured to about what marriage entails by somebody who isn't married themselves?

People must make their own choices about how they formalize their relationships.

I consider a married commitment such as yours, to be greater than a non married one. Thats my opinion. You obviously have yours.

I'm not remotely interested in lecturing you about marraige, I'm only interested in what it means to me.

SarahSassy

Its a hard one.... Leave someone you are totally in love with, have a great life with and a fab connection with at 38 years of age, to see if you will meet someone you could have kids with... Would not like to be her...

winking weber

Funnily enough I have a more positive view of marriage now I'm single than I did when in a ltr (which probably speaks volumes about the ltr).

My reasons for getting married would be mainly legal and also to safeguard my childrens rights. But I would be very cautious about it. I could potentially have a lot to lose asset wise in future too, and I wouldnt blame anyone for thinking twice about it from that point of view.

stovelid

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

I'm not remotely interested in lecturing you about marraige

Really?

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

But you have demonstrated superior commitment.

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

You've made a legal agreement.

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

You've become relatives. You've become material partners.

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

All those things demonstrate more commitment, the world sees you as being more than two people who have sex and share a house. Because thats what you told them when you got married.

I know. I am married.

tallaght01

Honestly, dude, if you think that was a "lecture", you need thicker skin.

allabouteve

stovelid wrote: »

but it would be stupid for us to believe that we have demonstrated superior commitment to a couple who have lived happily together for the same amount of time.

Here you say its not a superior commitment.

stovelid wrote: »

I know. I am married.

And here you agree it is.

Which is it?

stovelid

allabouteve wrote: »

And here you agree it is.

Which is it?

I'm agreeing to nothing less than knowing that marriage means I have made a formalized commitment, as made in those points.

What I am not agreeing to is that I am somehow more committed to my relationship than everybody in a long-term unmarried relationship; unmarried people in long-term cohabitation, or unmarried parents.

Marriage felt right for me. It doesn't mean that it's right for everyone, and while I admit (and apologize to GI) that I'm overreacting by referring to it as a lecture, the fact remains that I am in little need of having the benefits of marriage explained to me. Especially by people who are not married.

Crumble Froo

currently im in a different country so maybe this doesnt count, but where i am, you can be 'de facto partners' too, which i am, legally. if we split up, we're entitled to a certain amount of each other's crap (heh, though there's very little either of us own that the other would want :P).

though i guess for us, the moving halfway across the world thing combined with the complete numskull practice of applying for 4 different visas and becoming resident in the country says more than one simple day saying 'i do' ever possibly could.

GirlInterrupted

stovelid wrote: »

Marriage felt right for me. It doesn't mean that it's right for everyone, and while I admit (and apologize to GI) that I'm overreacting by referring to it as a lecture, the fact remains that I am in little need of having the benefits of marriage explained to me. Especially by people who are not married.

You misunderstand.

I was explaining why I thought a legal commitment is a greater one than a non legal one in my opinion. As I've said.

I've zero interest in explaining anything to you.

Quality

I love being married. After being with Mr Q for 12 years we got married and it did make a difference to our relationship.
I dont know why but our relationship really cemented when we married. I know some people think that being married is only a piece of paper.. But it meant much more to me. I have committed myself to Mr Q for life. All our friends and family were there to support us.

It has definitely tightened our bond together.

I can see stovelids point of view and agree with his comments.

But there are those that should not be married, or marry for the wrong reasons. Or that cant commit to marriage for whatever insecurities they have.

SeekUp

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

Of course there are committed couples that aren't married, but I wouldn't dismiss it as just a piece of paper.

Nor do I, don't misunderstand!!! In fact, I find it discouraging that so many people are so jaded as to only see marriage as "just a piece of paper" . . . that mindset undoubtedly contributes to the number of divorces there are.

That being said, I don't think it's the "only real commitment," as originally asked. It's the right thing for a lot of people and their particular situations. Still, having to choose between marriage and a ltr, maybe without the possibility of children, is rough; glad it's not me, tbh . . .

stovelid

Perhaps I sounded a little unemotional when discussing marriage, which isn't really the case. I loved my wedding day, and I am very happy to be married. I loved taking the vows in front of everybody. I like wearing my ring; I love how words 'my wife' sound, but I'm still convinced that marriage is a personal choice that does not have to suit everyone. And I'm convinced that many people have lives of real commitment outside of marriage.

I'm very wary of the idea that marriage somehow confers commitment, rather than simply being a formalization (for want of a better word) of existing commitment.

Also personally speaking, I don't really think that marriage itself tightened any bonds for me, as I felt they existed already. I feel parenthood - utterly in my opinion only - took the relationship to a whole other place, but not the simple fact of marriage.

Malari

Quality wrote: »

But there are those that should not be married, or marry for the wrong reasons. Or that cant commit to marriage for whatever insecurities they have.

Aren't you forgetting about those who don't want or need to? As opposed to "can't" or "shouldn't"?

Quality

Malari wrote: »

Aren't you forgetting about those who don't want or need to? As opposed to "can't" or "shouldn't"?

Yes of course.

Or what about those who want to marry and cant because they are same sex couples..

b3t4

Is marriage the only real commitment?
Nope. But it's the only legal one available in Ireland, that I am aware of. As Crumble Froo points out, in NZ, there is such a thing as de facto partners which I think is after two years (not sure on that) which affords you legal rights. In England, I believe that after 10yrs together you are a common law partner.

Marriage can shake up a relationship for better or worse. Often both partners will take a serious look at their relationship and ask themselves if this is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. Sometimes it's all too easy to bumble along in a relationship and not really think about it. A friend bumbled along in a relationship for five and a half years and five months before the wedding met someone else. The wedding is now firmly off.

When I get married I'll do so in good faith that we are both committing to figuring this out as we go along. I want the legal security both for me and for him. I want to know that should I die he gets everything. I want to know that if I end up in hospital he's the one calling the shots. I want to know that I've tied up any legal obstacles without having to spend a fortune in solicitors fees and consultations. I want to protect him and any future children we may have.

The law is Ireland is pretty crap but I can understand why it's developed the way it has. I'm know that it will evolve to becoming a fairer system for men but that it's going to take time and changes in attitude.

Perhaps Ireland should shake up the laws so that ltr's can be recognised legally? It works for other countries.

A.