Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2009

dvemail

Portmarnock has overtaken County Down as no.1.
List looks pretty fair to me. Opinions ??


http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2009/5/25/golf-digest-ireland-top-100-for-2009.html

stevire

Nice to see Castlecomer making it. Love that course, suprised at no inclusion of dunmurry springs...

L.O.F.T

[QUOTE= suprised at no inclusion of dunmurry springs...[/QUOTE]

Dunmurry is a fine course, perhaps the unfinished total package i.e clubhouse, bar / food and locker rooms was a factor?

stevire

L.O.F.T wrote: »

Dunmurry is a fine course, perhaps the unfinished total package i.e clubhouse, bar / food and locker rooms was a factor?

Maybe, but when you have the likes of the Curragh in there the course itself isn't a patch on it. Dunmurry is taking a while to complete, but a fantastic course to play none the less...

fullstop

Seapoint in the top 30 ahead of Headfort and PGA National among others? LOL

f22

Much as I rate Portmarnock, Royal County Down is still number 1 in my book, hands down.

Overall I think the top 50 are pretty fair and well balanced , however a few dodgy ones have crept into the latter half. St. Margarets/Ashbourne for example, I could list a host of courses more fitting to be on the list

Kevinmarkham

I think the list is fascinating. I think it's great that so many revered and knowledgeable people in the world of golf are asked to judge what Irish courses make the top 100. I also think they're judging courses from a specific design and professional viewpoint, and not from the perspective of the majority of amateur golfers like you and me. The intricacies of design at Portmarnock can't match the excitement and drama of Royal County Down or Old Head.

I'm not saying they're wrong - I am certainly not qualified to do that - but I disagree with the list in so many ways:
Ashbourne ahead of Rathcore, Galgorm Castle, Moyvalley, Portarlington?
Royal Dublin ahead of Belmullet and Old Head?
Dun Laoghaire ahead of Donegal, Portsalon, Dooks, Royal Belfast...???
And where, may I ask, are Portumna and Concra Wood?

I'm sure everyone will come onto this thread and query why one course is ranked ahead of another, because that's the nature of rankings, but if you want to know why I wrote my book - this type of list is one of the reasons.
K

Mister Sifter

I'm intrigued to know how an established club can have jumped up in the space of 12 months? Do the panel play every course in the country every year and re-rate them?

Don't get me wrong, i enjoy seeing lists like this, but as to its worth for finding it which courses are best, i would consider Hooked to be a far better guage than a Golf Digest top 100.

Trampas

I always take this list with a pinch of salt.

How do they rate them?

Nearly seems like the dearest make the top so the clubs can justify the price.

I think Kevin's method is much better.

Mister Sifter

Nothing against South County, i'm yet to play it and i believe it to be a fine track, but they have been spending big on ads in the past 12 months. They've shot into the top 100.

Maybe i'm putting 2+2 together and getting 5, but i have a feeling this says something about such lists.

conno16

farce of a list, if you ask me

f22

conno16 wrote: »

farce of a list, if you ask me

Quality and enlightening posting as usual

jimboddb

Worst list ever, Bantry Bay no. 55 ffs!!!!!!

copacetic

Trampas wrote: »

I always take this list with a pinch of salt.

How do they rate them?

Nearly seems like the dearest make the top so the clubs can justify the price.

I think Kevin's method is much better.

Irish Times has some details

Golf: Portmarnock has replaced Royal County Down in Golf Digest Ireland’s Top 100 Ranked Golf Courses in Ireland for 2009 after the Newcastle venue held the top spot for the last two years.

“Portmarnock’s promotion was based on key, course improvements, especially to run-off areas on several greens,” said Dermot Gilleece, editor of Golf Digest Ireland, and one of the eight-person selection panel.

“Effectively, these have been extended to heighten the difficulty of recovery shots at the second, third, eighth, ninth and 14th holes, while considerable work has also been done towards restoring traditional fescue and marram grasses to the north Dublin links.”

Pat Ruddy’s famed links, The European Club, where the Irish PGA Championship has been staged in recent years, moved up two places to third, while Royal Portrush made the biggest leap within the top 10, climbing from ninth to fourth.

That meant Ballybunion (Old) dropped two places to fifth while Adare Manor dropped three places to seventh but remains the highest-ranked parkland in the country as The Palmer Course at The K-Club, where the 2006 Ryder Cup was held, remained in 10th spot.

County Louth (Baltray), where Shane Lowry won this year’s 3 Irish Open, moved down two places to ninth.

This year’s panel was modified with the addition of Garth McGimpsey, winner of 14 championships in a glittering career, and Declan Branigan, who won six championships and is now acknowledged as a leading agronomist and course-designer.

Its full complement is: Declan Branigan (agronomist and course-designer), Mark Gannon (Royal and Ancient selector), Michael McCumiskey (Secretary, PGA Irish Region), Garth McGimpsey (former Walker Cup captain), Ada O'Sullivan (former Curtis Cup captain), John Quigley (Association of Irish Golf Club Secretaries), Dermot Gilleece (Editor, Golf Digest Ireland). Chairman: Padraig O hUiginn.

The Top 100 were selected in groups of 10, which meant, that any course which went close to making the top-10, automatically came into consideration for the second-10, and so on down the list. After a discussion on each group of courses, an individual, written vote was taken, with points being awarded to each course in order of preference, from 10 down to one. The counted votes then determined the order of preference.

The rankings for 2009 were decided by scoring each course (1-10) in the following categories; Shot making / variety; Design variety; Memorability; Course condition; Playability (all handicaps) and Degree of difficulty / fairness.

“Length is important in golf, where modern technology is posing a relentless threat to our best-loved terrain. This has been clearly reflected in the latest deliberations of the Golf Digest Ireland panel, in choosing the country's Top-100 courses for 2009," added Gilleece.

Golf Digest Ireland's Top 10 for 2009

1 Portmarnock
2 Royal County Down
3 The European Club
4 Royal Portrush
5 Ballybunion (Old)
6 Waterville
7 Adare Manor
8 Lahinch
9 Co Louth (Baltray)
10 The K-Club (Palmer)

I don't think you would ever generate a list that even 50% of people would agree with, their way seems as good as any and they seem to have concentrated on getting the top ones correct which makes sense.

thegen

copacetic wrote: »

Irish Times has some details



I don't think you would ever generate a list that even 50% of people would agree with, their way seems as good as any and they seem to have concentrated on getting the top ones correct which makes sense.

Have to agree with the above. We will all have different ideas on who should be in it or not.

I do disagree with the idea that these people would be influenced by Add campaign spend though.

jimmystars

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Belfast...???


I'm sure everyone will come onto this thread and query why one course is ranked ahead of another, because that's the nature of rankings, but if you want to know why I wrote my book - this type of list is one of the reasons.
K

Hey Kevin,
First off love your book. I have a new resource when planning my summer as im newish to the golf scene and when deciding what scratch cup to play in i go to the book for the verdict.
Secondly I was wondering why you didnt include a list from 1 to 374 in your book. It was one of the first things i looked for and a friend of mine did the same when he picked it up.
Lastly i hate looking at the top 100 list as it hardly gives any info about the course and a lot of the time just leaves me confused with some of the calls.

stockdam

I don't see Scrabo on the list Kevin..........


And where is Dublin Mountain and its twin Dublin City.


Lists are just for fun.........there's no definitive way of rating a course. There's the "love/hate" factor that is so subjective.

There are some really good courses left off the list but that's just my opinion.

Kevinmarkham

I am not exactly surprised to see Scrabo missing from the list, Stockdam, but how could they ignore Dublin Mountain? It's outrageous! Top ten material, surely.

Jimmystars - when you say I "didnt include a list from 1 to 349", do you mean the ultimate list of who's best/worst? If so, the key goal of my scoring system was not to say which is the best/worst course, but where you will find great golf experiences - the GE (Golf Experience) category is the most significant score - just because a course scores 83 it doesn't mean I prefer it to a course that scores 81. Hope that makes sense.

Graeme1982, Trampas, Jimmystars - you are now officially at the top of my 'favourite people on the Boards' ranking . Come to the launch and get a free pint or two.
K

markie4

I'd be curious to know what clubs the various members of the selection panel are associated with. Not out of any suspicions of bias, just curious to see the geographical spread and links/parkland backgrounds.

conno16

the worrying thing is these lists are given some weight by certain experts

i was at a golf convention in japan about three years ago and most of the punters there relied totally on such lists when putting golf packages together
its not good for tour companies and ultimately the customer

fullstop

markie4 wrote: »

I'd be curious to know what clubs the various members of the selection panel are associated with. Not out of any suspicions of bias, just curious to see the geographical spread and links/parkland backgrounds.

Only one I'd know of is McGimpsey. He used to play out of Bangor I think but he's playing senior cup (and I presume Barton Shield etc) for Royal Portrush this year.

conno16

and..
has he played all of the courses / 50% of them / 3 or 4 of them??

fullstop

conno16 wrote: »

and..
has he played all of the courses / 50% of them / 3 or 4 of them??

How would I know? Don't know the man personally. I presume he's played all the top ones anyway in different championships and the likes

f22

McGimpsy was a leading amateur for years and has been capped 226 times for Ireland, won 14 championships, including the British Amateur in 1985.

Guess that give some substance to the chaps credentials!

Conno16, you talk some serious ****, the top 50 of that list regardless of the order showcases the best courses the country has to offer. How the hell does a list like this damage the credentials of a Tour Company or ultimately have an impact on a golfer visiting Ireland. How the hell your endless trolling hasn't resulted in a perma-ban I will never know.

conno16

my experience with the japanese was as follows:

the group were typically a money-is-no-major-hassle collection of relatively decent golfers
they knew little about courses in ireland but had set up a venture tour company
because of their lack of research they basically decided to use the 10/15 most famous/high profile courses in ireland and sold packages on that basis
this meant that some real gem courses were not included and any that were cost top dollar

f22

Well here's one for you. A number of years ago The Island did a survey as to why their footfall of golfers (American etc) was much lower than other high calibre links courses.

The result was a recommendation to inflate the green fees to levels of their illustrious neighbours, and guess what, the numbers rose greatly.

To unsuspecting and in some case idiotic Americans (especially), high green fee costs equal top quality golf, which we all know is not necessarily the case.

If they're dumb enough to feed off the top of the list let them at it.

Mister Sifter

conno16 wrote: »

my experience with the japanese was as follows:

the group were typically a money-is-no-major-hassle collection of relatively decent golfers
they knew little about courses in ireland but had set up a venture tour company
because of their lack of research they basically decided to use the 10/15 most famous/high profile courses in ireland and sold packages on that basis
this meant that some real gem courses were not included and any that were cost top dollar

Well, that's the fault of the Japs, not the guys compiling the list. If they wanna run a company based on that then that's there problem. Jumping on a plane and testing them out for theirselves would, i would have thought, be the logical approach for any businessman.

f22

conno16 wrote: »

my experience with the japanese was as follows:

the group were typically a money-is-no-major-hassle collection of relatively decent golfers
they knew little about courses in ireland but had set up a venture tour company
because of their lack of research they basically decided to use the 10/15 most famous/high profile courses in ireland and sold packages on that basis
this meant that some real gem courses were not included and any that were cost top dollar

While I'm at it, why do you insist on not using capital letters and full stops, unless that is the 16 in your username is your actual age and you haven't got that far in class yet. It's very annoying!

conno16

we need a proper listing of the top courses
include about 10/15 indicators to evaluate each course

it'll mean there is a proper scale to rank/rate
the japs and americans are always just gonna follow the lists IMO

conno16

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Well, that's the fault of the Japs, not the guys compiling the list. If they wanna run a company based on that then that's there problem. Jumping on a plane and testing them out for theirselves would, i would have thought, be the logical approach for any businessman.

graeme - they ran the company on the basis of information.
incomplete information in my opinion
but the only info available pretty much (short of completing field trips - kinda expensive from toyko)

Mister Sifter

So basically what you're saying is, the lists are rubbish, because golfers who've never been to Ireland, but want to come to Ireland, only have lists to go on when deciding which courses to choose.

And your solution to the problem is... to make another list?

whatawaster

I can see why the Japanese would have a problem. They read a list like this, pay huge money for a flight to Ireland, and are stuck with rubbish courses like Lahinch, Ballybunion, Portmarnock, Portrush, County Down, Waterville, European Club and so on. They should ask for their money back. After all, you can get courses like those anywhere in the world, right?

Blunder

I dont see anything majorly wrong with the top 40 or 50. Everyone will have dfferent opinions of what should be no. 1 or what should be in the top 10 etc. however I think the 8 links and 2 parkland courses in the top 10 are just about right. While I dont agree with the order necessarily their inclusion in the top 10 is justified.

Also so what if the lists are what Japanese and American Golf Tourists base their travel plans on. I think its a good basis of planning a trip. They wont be playing all 100 courses, They will just be picking out 3 or 4 and playing them and I would imagine that they will be satisfied with those courses. If Golf courses not on the top 100 list are afraid that they wont get business from Japan or America then it is up to them to market themselves accordingly.

Once again conno you are clutching at straws just to keep the trolling going. Give it a rest please.

copacetic

conno16 wrote: »

the worrying thing is these lists are given some weight by certain experts

i was at a golf convention in japan about three years ago and most of the punters there relied totally on such lists when putting golf packages together
its not good for tour companies and ultimately the customer

What do you mean? That doesn't make any sense at all. The list isn't given 'some weight by certain experts'. It's developed by a group of people who are experts. Of course people would plan golf packages around it, why not? They are open lists and the people who are involved in picking them are known. It's not like it's a shadowy group of unknowns like internet posters!

Any japanese tour that came to Ireland and hit these top ten courses, isn't going to go far wrong.

1 Portmarnock
2 Royal County Down
3 The European Club
4 Royal Portrush
5 Ballybunion (Old)
6 Waterville
7 Adare Manor
8 Lahinch
9 Co Louth (Baltray)
10 The K-Club (Palmer)

conno16

fair enough
but they'll have to remortgage the gaff back in tokyo to afford a trip to ireland

there are numerous courses out there that are top notch, less expensive and equally enjoyable for tourists
the list is a flawed concept and is costing the golf industry in ireland
thats all

conno16

copacetic wrote: »

What do you mean? That doesn't make any sense at all. The list isn't given 'some weight by certain experts'. It's developed by a group of people who are experts. Of course people would plan golf packages around it, why not? They are open lists and the people who are involved in picking them are known. It's not like it's a shadowy group of unknowns like internet posters!

Any japanese tour that came to Ireland and hit these top ten courses, isn't going to go far wrong.

1 Portmarnock
2 Royal County Down
3 The European Club
4 Royal Portrush
5 Ballybunion (Old)
6 Waterville
7 Adare Manor
8 Lahinch
9 Co Louth (Baltray)
10 The K-Club (Palmer)

travel all the way from japan for those two??
give me a break

Blunder

They dont have to play them if they dont want to. I think they are both fantastic courses which are very enjoyable to play.

Also if they are putting themselves in the position of having to 'Remortgage the Gaff' just to fund the golfing trip to Ireland then it would probably be a good Idea to forget about the trip altogether.

I wouldnt have thought the Japanese golf market was a major source of income for Irish Golf Courses anyway.

conno16

Blunder wrote: »

I wouldnt have thought the Japanese golf market was a major source of income for Irish Golf Courses anyway.

it is blunder
they spend a lot of cash in ireland every summer
but theres more potential there

L.O.F.T

I wasnt to sure of the term 'Trolling', so I Wikepedia and it says : In Internet slang, a troll / trolling is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

Its my opinion, and only that, but Conno16 will not stop 'trolling' when so many here are only too happy to take his bait. I think its fun and interesting to discuss the Digest list but its predictable and somtimes over the top the responses offered to Conno16 posts when at times he only offers his opinions even though they may be way off the mark or derisory.

Blunder

conno16 wrote: »

it is blunder
they spend a lot of cash in ireland every summer
but theres more potential there

The Japanese golf tourist doesnt even account for 4% of the total golf tourists to Ireland. I have no doubt it has potential as a market but I would doubt that it will be as important to the Irish Golf industry as the American, Mainland European and British golf market is.

f22

He's walking on thin ice as it stands, and whatever your opinion it's hard to ignore idiotic comments when they continuously appear through threads.

I think you will also find that the Japanese golf market in Ireland is miniscule, and is dwarfed by US, UK and mainland European golfers.

Woops, looks like I repeated what you just said. Great minds and all that!

conno16

Blunder wrote: »

The Japanese golf tourist doesnt even account for 4% of the total golf tourists to Ireland. I have no doubt it has potential as a market but I would doubt that it will be as important to the Irish Golf industry as the American, Mainland European and British golf market is.

4% from one nation is not to be sniffed at IMO
anyways i was only using the japs as one example
you'll recall my initial post in this topic referred to the americans also

thegen

conno16 wrote: »

4% from one nation is not to be sniffed at IMO
anyways i was only using the japs as one example
you'll recall my initial post in this topic referred to the americans also

4% is not to be sniffed at.

You did not mention the US market until your 5th post which is 50% of your posts in this thread and was post 29 in this thread. If you are using a visiting nation's figures as an example please state so in your post.

Blunder

conno16 wrote: »

4% from one nation is not to be sniffed at IMO
anyways i was only using the japs as one example
you'll recall my initial post in this topic referred to the americans also

The 4% refers to the rest of the world not just Japan. I did say that The Japanese golf tourist doesnt even account for 4% of the total golf tourists to Ireland. Japan could have accounted for the full 7000 golfers NOT from Britain, US, or Mainland europe that visited Ireland in 2006 or they could have accounted for none.

soundsham

conno16 wrote: »

travel all the way from japan for those two??
give me a break

whats up man good to see the stupid reply's back on board!!

your latest ban over?

it passed so quickly...............shame

Kevinmarkham

[quote=Blunder;[URL="javascript:void(0)"][/URL]]I wouldnt have thought the Japanese golf market was a major source of income for Irish Golf Courses anyway.[/quote]


My turn to weigh in.

The Top 100 serves a purpose for Irish golf because it tells us what the experts deem to be the best courses on the island. And, as we are proving, we can debate their choices for hours. I would disagree very strongly with their order, but I lack their knowledge of the game and what makes a so-called good design; Dermot Gilleece's comments about Portmarnock's elevation to the top spot prove that (“Portmarnock’s promotion was based on key, course improvements, especially to run-off areas on several greens,”). Such intricacies are far beyond me.

As for our visitors:
Americans would have a very good knowledge of our links and don't need much help from lists like this - even if they don't get to some of the beauties so frequently disregarded (Rosslare at 77 and Narin & Portnoo at 80)

The Japanese will find what they need to know from such a list, but it doesn't give the full picture (the beauty of Waterville vs. the strategy of Portmarnock). It's a starting point to the great Irish courses - after that you have to do your homework. They may only account for 4% of visitors, but they spend a lot of money when they get here.

66% of golfing tourists come from Great Britain. This list is pretty much useless for them. They don't want links and they don't want the glamour of K Clubs and Adares. They want value. Under €50 preferably (Failte Ireland research). Hollywood Lakes ahead of Mount Juliet.

Go out and play the top ten (and remortgage your home while you're at it) and rank them as you see fit. Tell you what: if you have played all 10 already, let's hear your order, based on how much you would want to play them again.
Mine would be:

5 Ballybunion (Old)
3 The European Club
6 Waterville
2 Royal County Down
7 Adare
8 Lahinch
4 Royal Portrush
9 Co Louth (Baltray)
1 Portmarnock
10 The K-Club (Palmer)

conno16

both kevin and woosie raise fair points IMO

i'm not gonna write it again, but i think this list is a joke for the most part

conno16

makes sense..
i dont think we should give the list any more attention
that copy of golf digest will be staying close to the loo in my house

Woosie1959

jimmystars wrote: »

Hey Kevin,
First off love your book. I have a new resource when planning my summer as im newish to the golf scene and when deciding what scratch cup to play in i go to the book for the verdict.
Secondly I was wondering why you didnt include a list from 1 to 374 in your book. It was one of the first things i looked for and a friend of mine did the same when he picked it up.
Lastly i hate looking at the top 100 list as it hardly gives any info about the course and a lot of the time just leaves me confused with some of the calls.

could you tell me the name of the book as sounds interesting

Mister Sifter

soundsham wrote: »

proof??

You're surely not that naive to think that this isn't the case? It's how magazines survive.

PhilipMarlowe

Woosie1959 wrote: »

could you tell me the name of the book as sounds interesting

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055550966&highlight=hooked