It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

RATM

New research has found that Ireland's civil servants are the highest paid and least productive the in the EU.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-civil-servants-have-best-deal-in-eu-study-shows-1749381.html

Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.

Public-sector workers earn an average of €50,000 a year -- 32 per cent more than private-sector workers, who are on an average wage of €38,000.

That was before the last round of public pay increases.

As the private sector is decimated by rising unemployment and wage cuts, the study, by Dublin economist Anthony Foley, paints a dramatic picture of runaway expenditure that is soaking up huge amounts of tax and crippling the Irish economy.

"The recent and sudden reduction in tax revenues suggests that the affordability of the public sector is a critical and urgent issue," says Mr Foley.

He adds that public-sector efficiency is another critical matter for Government.

As nurses and teachers protest about pay and conditions, it has emerged that the Departments of Health and Education are at the heart of the country's growing financial crisis.

Between 1998 and 2007 the pay bill for the Department of Health has increased by 193 per cent to (€2.4bn to €7.2 bn) and the Department of Education by 155 per cent (€2.2bn to €5.6bn).

More frightening is that the vast majority of increases in staff numbers in the Department of Health was made up of administrative/management employees and not frontline nurses and doctors.

Mr Foley is a senior lecturer in economics at Dublin City University Business School.

He says: "There is evidence to suggest that public servants in Ireland are higher paid than elsewhere" -- and he includes the EU and the OECD countries in his calculations.

"Public-sector employment growth has greatly exceeded the growth in population," he adds.

His assessment is contained in the current issue of Administration.

I find it absolutely staggering that in less than 10 years the Dept of Health's wage bill rose by 192%. Since 1997 the three Ministers of Health we have had are Brian Cowen, Michael Martin and Mary Harney. Like what the fook were they thinking? Especially Harney who likes to cast herself as a 'reformer'. The only thing that is getting reformed is the bank accounts of her employees imho.

Ass

If you remember back to about a year ago, we were also one of the richest countries in the world with relation to our population. But lets take things out of context because doing that is fun.

Wibbs

It's not the monies paid that would be my issue, it's the glorious lack of consistent results paid for out of the public purse. It actually makes it worse that we were one of the richest countries per head.

Wertz

Rich on paper...paper those same civil servants and the politicians who's asses they wipe, seemed unable to read, so they went on rewarding themselves pay rises, perks, pensions and and new offices. The writing was on the wall for years as to where it was all headed...these clowns just either didn't get that or carried on, oblivious (or simply not giving a f*ck) where all this outlandish spending would land the whole lot of us...

glaston

Ass wrote: »

If you remember back to about a year ago, we were also one of the richest countries in the world with relation to our population. But lets take things out of context because doing that is fun.

I dont see how that puts it into context.
We were inefficient and pouring money down the toilet...ah but sure that was grand cause there was lots of it.

?

mikemac

Not to worry.
Just as benching marking gave them pay rises when it was decided they were underpaid, a fair benchmarking system will reduce pay if it's decided they are overpaid.

That's how the system work right? It's a fair system right? What do you mean it only works one way? :eek:

Caoimhín

Ass wrote: »

If you remember back to about a year ago, we were also one of the richest countries in the world with relation to our population. But lets take things out of context because doing that is fun.

I think the figures you are referring to took property values into the equation. And we all know that property values were outrageously overpriced.

Still, I dont see what you mean by taking things out of context, what context do you mean?

ArseBurger

Ass wrote: »

If you remember back to about a year ago, we were also one of the richest countries in the world with relation to our population.

No, Ireland was not. There is a massive difference between GDP and GNP - especially when they have a large differential.

Getting it wrong and thinking we were RICH RICH RICH got Ireland into the ****heap it's in now.

Don't just blame the government and the banks. People brought this on themselves - they have to share the blame.

Nolanger

The Civil Service is full of 'nice' people. It's more important to act nice than be productive or intelligent. We're in this recession because the Finance dept has too many of these people and not enough qualified economists/accountants/finance heads.

nesf

The thread was locked before it was moved from AH, that is why it was closed previously. I'm reopening, enjoy ranting about public sector wages, guys..

Ass

Woah! For a minute there I thought I was unbanned from AH.

P. Breathnach

nesf wrote: »

The thread was locked before it was moved from AH, that is why it was closed previously. I'm reopening, enjoy ranting about public sector wages, guys..

Thanks for the explanation. I was surprised to see a public sector bashing thread locked before jimmmy found it.

Perhaps OP will explain the use of the word "Official" in the header. And what the difference is between civil servants and public servants. And how many nurses are on the payroll of the Department of Health. Et cetera.

nesf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And what the difference is between civil servants and public servants.

The article is actually about public servants as a whole despite the wording in the OP's post.

capsubsidy.com

Ass wrote: »

If you remember back to about a year ago, we were also one of the richest countries in the world with relation to our population. But lets take things out of context because doing that is fun.

You seem to be mixing up wealth with debt. They're not the same.

As for the increase in the PS bill, that's hardly a surprise. If you want to see the figures, just look here



All these figures were taken from the Irish Government's budget website.

Ass

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

You seem to be mixing up wealth with debt. They're not the same.

As for the increase in the PS bill, that's hardly a surprise. If you want to see the figures, just look here



All these figures were taken from the Irish Government's budget website.

Hi, I don't care.


I was trolling in AH before it was moved.

weiss

What I'd really love to see is a breakdown of full time staff employed in the public sector over the last 20 years.

capsubsidy.com

Ass wrote: »

Hi, I don't care.


I was trolling in AH before it was moved.

ok fair enough

capsubsidy.com

weiss wrote: »

What I'd really love to see is a breakdown of full time staff employed in the public sector over the last 20 years.

what sort of breakdown? I wonder if you could get access to what you need using a FOI request?

weiss

Ass wrote:

Hi, I don't care.


I was trolling in AH before it was moved.

its a common response by the public sector employees on these forums...they're all around us

weiss

capsubsidy.com wrote:

what sort of breakdown? I wonder if you could get access to what you need using a FOI request?

Not sure, might take a while

Just the job descriptions of staff employed, what their purpose is.

cyclopath2001

nesf wrote: »

The article is actually about public servants as a whole despite the wording in the OP's post.

More importantly it appeared in the 'Indo', a paper whose cost has increased hugely in the past 10 years while its journalistic standards have gone from bad to dismal.

P. Breathnach

nesf wrote: »

The article is actually about public servants as a whole despite the wording in the OP's post.

Somebody should have a word with the people in the Indo. The heading in the paper is "Irish civil servants have best deal in EU, study shows" (inelegant as well as inexact). The piece itself opens with "Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries...".

[What's Foley's research and publication record like? I hadn't noticed anything by him.]

weiss

P. Breathnach wrote:

What's Foley's research and publication record like? I hadn't noticed anything by him

Tony Foley is a senior lecturer and is head of the economics finance and entrepreneurship group in dcubs. He was formerly the Director of the Local Government MBA programme and executive MBA inDCU Business School. He is also formerly executive dean and head of executive education. He lectures on the topics of international trade . industrial development and Irish economic analysis. He received his primary degree in economics and politics from UCD and also received a masters in economics (first class honours) from UCD. Tony has extensive professional involvement with the Irish and international public and private sectors. Prior to joining DCU, he worked in the Department of Finance, the National Economic and Social Council (NESC), Dublin Corporation, the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) and the IDA. He has also undertaken a wide range of advisory and consultancy projects for the public sector, including the following: Review of Regional Airports for the Department of Transport; Advisor to Eastern Regional Health Authority on Mental Health Plan (2001); Policy Advisor on indigenous industry to Forfás (1999-2000) and Review of healthcare funding for the North Western Health Board (1995)

Biographical Details

luckat

I wonder how this 'Dublin economist' measured productivity. The whole thing seems a bit muzzy.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Somebody should have a word with the people in the Indo.

I think they should, and congratulate them yet again for highlighting the outrageous value the country is getting from the public service.
In a seperate newpaper last week ( not part of the Insdo group ) I read another article about how our public servants were so overpaid....it also gave the example of how the head of our central bank was the highest paid central banker in the world, and it gave his salary, compared to his counterparts in the US, UK, Germany, Japan etc. Its not just Nora the nurse and Gerry the Guard and Colm the civil servant who are overpaid compared with their comparables abroad.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I think they should, and congratulate them yet again for highlighting the outrageous value the country is getting from the public service...

And truth and accuracy don't matter?

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And truth and accuracy don't matter?

do you have facts and figures that say otherwise?

P. Breathnach

ionix5891 wrote: »

do you have facts and figures that say otherwise?

Otherwise than what? I pointed out that the Indo has conflated the Civil Service and the Public Service. The simple fact is that they are not the same: the CS is a subset of the PS, representing about 10% of the entire sector.

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Otherwise than what? I pointed out that the Indo has conflated the Civil Service and the Public Service. The simple fact is that they are not the same: the CS is a subset of the PS, representing about 10% of the entire sector.

do their wages come from private enterprise or from the taxpayer ....

P. Breathnach

ionix5891 wrote: »

do their wages come from private enterprise or from the taxpayer ....

That's irrelevant to what I said.

It appears that you and jimmmy don't care about getting things right.

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's irrelevant to what I said.

It appears that you and jimmmy don't care about getting things right.

how is it irrelevant? i don't care what they are called, these people are being paid by taxpayer and the private sector

does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

P. Breathnach

ionix5891 wrote: »

how is it irrelevant? i don't care what they are called...

The fact that you don't care does not make inaccuracy valid.

[It's quite entertaining seeing you and jimmmy consistently thanking each other through this exchange; I think you are ganging up on me.]

thebman

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

You seem to be mixing up wealth with debt. They're not the same.

As for the increase in the PS bill, that's hardly a surprise. If you want to see the figures, just look here



All these figures were taken from the Irish Government's budget website.

Christ that is damning on the governments lack of investment in industry in the country :eek:

How the hell could they have not increased funding for industry during the boom years for industries to get them off the ground so they could replace construction after the property boom?

gurramok

They were too busy propping up Tom Parlons CIF to care.

Look at that social welfare bill, it skyrocketed even when unemployement was at 4%, talk about out of control!

And health. Evidence there of the army of HSE admins that were recruited.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The fact that you don't care does not make inaccuracy valid.

Thats only nit-picking. The point is we have the EU's highest paid and least productive government employees. Not only that, our public servants are among the highest paid in the world ....show me a country where their average pay is more.

Its ok for you PBreatnach...you get a pecentage of that pay, do you not, so you have a vested interest in maintaining the salary levels of what is probably world highest paid public service ? I put it to you that this country cannot afford such extravagance.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Thats only nit-picking.

No. It's a concern for truth and accuracy. The unargued fact that there are large numbers of administrators in the HSE is being used as a stick to beat the Civil Service, even though the HSE is outside the Civil Service.

The point is we have the EU's highest paid and least productive government employees.

What is the index of productivity? Or are you operating in rant mode?

Not only that, our public servants are among the highest paid in the world ....show me a country where their average pay is more.

Its ok for you PBreatnach...you get a pecentage of that pay, do you not, so you have a vested interest in maintaining the salary levels of what is probably world highest paid public service ? I put it to you that this country cannot afford such extravagance.

I have challenged you before on misrepresenting my position, but that also seems to have slipped through unnoticed by you. Show me any evidence that I have put my own financial interest ahead of the general good.

[Are you posting on your employer's time?]

thebman

jimmmy wrote: »

Its ok for you PBreatnach...you get a pecentage of that pay, do you not, so you have a vested interest in maintaining the salary levels of what is probably world highest paid public service ? I put it to you that this country cannot afford such extravagance.

Well he could concede your point a thousand times over here and it wouldn't make any difference in real life.

I don't doubt that public sector wage should be benchmarked against private sector and reduce accordingly.

Won't happen, government want to buy next election if possible (I really hope it isn't).

jimmmy

Come on P.Breatnach ; please answer the question below, which you have dodged :

ionix5891 wrote: »

does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

Incidentally, I am not posting on any employers time, be it public service employer or private service employer. I wish you were so concerned about other people posting on company time eg the public sector employee who was last week caught making many and frequent posts at work.

P. Breathnach

thebman wrote: »

.. I don't doubt that public sector wage should be benchmarked against private sector and reduce accordingly...

I'd prefer adjusted to reduced. There are many types of work in the public service, and it is possible (it seems unlikely, I grant you) that some rates do not merit reduction. Benchmarking with a predetermined outcome is wrong.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Come on P.Breatnach ; please answer the question below, which you have dodged :
does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

It is dishonourable to suggest that I dodge questions. I choose what I want to say, and I give my opinions on my own terms, not on terms set by you. You favour the "when did you stop beating your wife" approach to questioning.

Incidentally, I am not posting on any employers time, be it public service employer or private service employer.

Good to hear that.

I wish you were so concerned about other people posting on company time eg the public sector employee who was last week caught making many and frequent posts at work.

Why should I need to, when you are policing people already?

spank_inferno

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd prefer adjusted to reduced. There are many types of work in the public service, and it is possible (it seems unlikely, I grant you) that some rates do not merit reduction. Benchmarking with a predetermined outcome is wrong.

You must have hated the first round of benchmarking then?

Anyway.....
Whatever about the numbers employed in the public service or how much money is spent on them, the thing that bugs most is the relatively small amount of governance we get in exchange for our money.

Is there anywhere else in Europe where so many deliver so little output at such cost?

jmayo

thebman wrote: »

Christ that is damning on the governments lack of investment in industry in the country :eek:

How the hell could they have not increased funding for industry during the boom years for industries to get them off the ground so they could replace construction after the property boom?

Jeeze what age are you ?
Have you not figured out yet FF and the public sector (including those subset called the civil service) don't plan ahead in this country.
Otherwise someone in the Dept of Finance might have actually plugged in a few figures and worked out that when building bubble burst we would be f***ed.

P. Breathnach

spank_inferno wrote: »

You must have hated the first round of benchmarking then?

I didn't approve of it. Nor do I respect cheap shot approaches to serious debate.

Anyway.....
Whatever about the numbers employed in the public service or how much money is spent on them, the thing that bugs most is the relatively small amount of governance we get in exchange for our money.

Is there anywhere else in Europe where so many deliver so little output at such cost?

How little do we get? What are your outcome measures, or the outcome measures on which you base your judgement? Does the criticism apply evenly across the whole range of public services, or can you say where the deficiencies are?

spank_inferno

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I didn't approve of it. Nor do I respect cheap shot approaches to serious debate.

Grand.... I don't care whether you respect it or not

P. Breathnach wrote: »

How little do we get? What are your outcome measures, or the outcome measures on which you base your judgement? Does the criticism apply evenly across the whole range of public services, or can you say where the deficiencies are?

Measurements? Nope... I've none of those.
but then, does the public sector even know how to measure its own outputs?
Does the public sector even know how many people work for it?!

Instead if running down everyone else here perhaps you could be the clever cloggs and prove me wrong? Or is writing with such gravitas hard enough work as it is?

P. Breathnach

spank_inferno wrote: »

... Instead if running down everyone else here perhaps you could be the clever cloggs and prove me wrong?

I say that you are wrong. That's sufficient disproof of any unsubstantiated claim.

Or is writing with such gravitas hard enough work as it is?

It's quite easy. You should try it.

jimmmy

Come on P.Breatnach ; please answer the question below, which you have still not answered :


Quote:
Originally Posted by ionix5891
does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

BroomBurner

Hooray, another "all public servants are nasty, sly leaches stealing our monies" thread! It's a topic we've never covered before

ionix5891

BroomBurner wrote: »

Hooray, another "all public servants are nasty, sly leaches stealing our monies" thread! It's a topic we've never covered before

now now no need to generalize

tho trimming the fat to the EU average wouldn't do any harm, continuing borrowing money from abroad to pay for the gravy train will do harm and cost and arm and leg as time goes back and interest will have to be paid on them billions

BroomBurner

ionix5891 wrote: »

now now no need to generalize

tho trimming the fat to the EU average wouldn't do any harm, continuing borrowing money from abroad to pay for the gravy train will do harm and cost and arm and leg as time goes back and interest will have to be paid on them billions

I'm all for trimming the fat. The only problem is, the wrong people will get trimmed. As someone posted in the FG/Labour thread, it will be cheaper to get rid of those newest in, and not the long-timers who have a certain mind-set.

Also, people need to calm down their hatred a bit and look at things more objectively. At least for their own blood-pressure's sake.

Oh, where did your man get his figures? Is his report available to read? Not disputing it, but don't want to comment on it until I've read around the subject myself. An action that others here should do also before jumping on the coat-tails of whatever happens to back up their preconceived ideas.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Come on P.Breatnach ; please answer the question below, which you have still not answered :


Quote:
Originally Posted by ionix5891
does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

No. I state my views in my own way. Dealing with things on your terms is too simplistic.

Now go and find another silly game to play, because I am not playing this one.

The_Conductor

ionix5891 wrote: »

now now no need to generalize

tho trimming the fat to the EU average wouldn't do any harm, continuing borrowing money from abroad to pay for the gravy train will do harm and cost and arm and leg as time goes back and interest will have to be paid on them billions

If you go trimming the fat to the EU average in the civil service (on a per head of population basis), you would have just over 18,000 more civil servants. Ireland actually has the lowest number of civil servants per head of population in the whole OECD.

Far more pertinent- and instead of trying to lump the civil service, or even the public sector, as a whole- would be to focus on the elephant in the room- the HSE. It employs more people than the rest of the public sector combined, and at average salaries (despite what the media would have you believe) ~18% higher than the average salary elsewhere in the public sector.

There are shocking numbers of administrators pushing paper (or whatever it is they do to justify their existence). They are the people who give everyone else in the public sector a bad name...... The idea when all the old health boards were merged was that ~14,000 jobs could be eliminated (largely due to duplication of admin functions (notice a trend here?) and this would be implemented by non-replacement policies as people retired, contracts ended etc. Instead- guess what? 4 years later- not only were there not fewer people employed- there were 46,000 additional staff members- doing god only knows what.

The HSE is the elephant in the room.

Different parts of the public sector deliver benefits to the public at large in different manners. Just because a particular sector is not income generating- does not necessarily mean its evil- or that its function could be supplied in an efficient by the private sector. Some people here seem to have very black and white views of things. Certainly there are many things wrong in the public sector- but so too are there in the private sector (as is evidenced by all the money the government has to borrow to bail out the financial sector- that bastion of capitalism- and in the process drag the financial reputation of this country through the mud).

Certainly- there should be greater accountability among public sector employees- but with greater accountability- there should also be recognition too- both are very deficient. As pointed out earlier in this thread- the problem with implementing a last-in-first-out policy- is the people in set mindsets, who aren't interested in change- are left to fester in their set routines. Those who are in a position to make a difference- are out the door...... It doesn't work......

The big problem as I see it- is parochial politics. Every politician represents their constituents- and no-one represents Ireland as a whole. Everyone wants everything for their own constituency- and voters in turn have the power to reward or punish those who do or don't deliver the perceived bacon. This means- where we should have a cohesive policy for Ireland Inc- we don't and the will is not there to deliver. This is destroying us.