What do you think of Kevin Myers/Immigration?

Affable

I saw this guy on youtube..RTE. It's interesting, in Britian I don't think it gets openly discussed.

Anyone, just wondered what you thought of him and his views.

joolsveer

What are his views? Have you a link?

Affable

joolsveer wrote: »

What are his views? Have you a link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnEFsLeQ-vY&feature=PlayList&p=7782B7990A7A582C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

parts 2 and 3 should be there

He's worried about an islamic Europe and thinks we should think about(it's not definite) whether race is an issue.

He seems to be an English guy that fled Leciester becasue of demographics.

spank_inferno

Yeah he's a Leicester native.

Some of his writings are a bit off the mark and a lot of it is boring and repetitive.

That said I dont disagree with the general thrust of his opinions.

Too many in the Media/chattering classes here think we all should live in some sort of "united colours of Beneton" commercial..... so he gets a lot of abuse for not having the "accepted" opinion.

(these same people who btw live in the whitest parts of Dublin)

Serenity Now!

Affable wrote: »

He's worried about an islamic Europe and thinks we should think about(it's not definite) whether race is an issue

He's been reading too much Mark Steyn, a writer who as an example wrote about a 'slum' in Oslo, Norway being taken over by Muslim immigrants.
Despite living there at the time, I still can't for the life of me find any slums there.

Likes a good reaction does Myers as there's only one thing worse than being talked about and that is not being talked about.
I don't respect him or his views the slightest.

Affable

spank_inferno wrote: »

Yeah he's a Leicester native.

Some of his writings are a bit off the mark and a lot of it is boring and repetitive.

That said I dont disagree with the general thrust of his opinions.

Too many in the Media/chattering classes here think we all should live in some sort of "united colours of Beneton" commercial..... so he gets a lot of abuse for not having the "accepted" opinion.

(these same people who btw live in the whitest parts of Dublin)

To me colour is not much of a big deal. But Islam is.

Joey the lips

His underlying point is interesting! He is a bit ott in his approch! As for conor lehihen! A pure gobsh1te!!!!

Kevin myers loves Ireland! Tell the Nationalist community..... From a man that says long live the queen!

Nodin

Affable wrote: »

Anyone, just wondered what you thought of him and his views.

He's either a profesional contrarian or a pillock. I've never been able to work out which 100%. His spoutings on immigration make me drift towards the latter though.

bmaxi

Affable wrote: »

To me colour is not much of a big deal. But Islam is.

Why should Islam be a problem? There are branches of Islam that are problematic just as there are branches of Christianity that I'd run a mile from.

af_thefragile

Affable wrote: »

To me colour is not much of a big deal. But Islam is.

Why?
People should be free to believe in what they want and practice the religion of their choice. What's wrong about it?
Also if you're watching too much news and think Islam is all about "killing westerners", then you're very wrong!! Islam is a very peaceful religion.

is_that_so

Myers can write extremely well but my impression is that he has not taken his departure from his natural home, The Irish Times, well and pretty much anything goes these days. He can occasionally hit the mark these days but IMO his best days are behind him and he has the same relevance as that Senator Bertie nominated.

Affable

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why?
People should be free to believe in what they want and practice the religion of their choice. What's wrong about it?
Also if you're watching too much news and think Islam is all about "killing westerners", then you're very wrong!! Islam is a very peaceful religion.

It is NOT peaceful. It has more imperialist intentions than any other religion.
I'm not big on catholicism either, for the record. Or many others.

Affable

Serenity Now! wrote: »

He's been reading too much Mark Steyn, a writer who as an example wrote about a 'slum' in Oslo, Norway being taken over by Muslim immigrants.
.

I know of him. He said the split between te western world population and muslim population was 30%/15% and then 20%/20%.
He says Europe will become Islamified.

ionix5891

Affable wrote: »

It is NOT peaceful. It has more imperialist intentions than any other religion.
I'm not big on catholicism either, for the record. Or many others.

And what are these intentions?

i dont see why religion has to do anything with politics. the two shouldn't be allowed to mix, parties shouldn't have the words "CHRISTIAN DEMOCRAT" in it. the state should be completely secular, we have states to serve the people by the people, not to answer to some entity called church who worship an entity that doesnt exist

Affable wrote: »

I know of him. He said the split between te western world population and muslim population was 30%/15% and then 20%/20%.
He says Europe will become Islamified.

comment is free, but facts are sacred

the fact that this guy cant come up with a consistent figure shows that hes a liar


ive no time for Kevin Myer, its people like that why i don't bother reading Independent much (i hope editors read this) anymore


"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Yoda

.

af_thefragile

Affable wrote: »

It is NOT peaceful. It has more imperialist intentions than any other religion.
I'm not big on catholicism either, for the record. Or many others.

You need to read more about Islam...
Yes muslims do like to believe in a world where everyone is muslim. But so do people from most other religions. Atheists like Richard Dawkins are the worst at this with their "there is probably no god" slogans.
The christian missionaries went around the world converting people to christianity. They gave Britan a reason/excuse to go and invade over half the world "Its God's will that Britan should rule the world".

The muslims are no way as bad as that. You don't see them around every corner trying to preach you their religion. Neither can you name a single act of violent aggression taken place in Ireland related to Islam.

You cannot confuse the minute group terrorists with normal muslims. Every group has their bunch of looneys.

Affable wrote: »

I know of him. He said the split between te western world population and muslim population was 30%/15% and then 20%/20%.
He says Europe will become Islamified.

That is bull crap.
How can you see that happening?!

In UK (which is supposed to have the highest amount of muslim population), Muslims make up only 2.7% of the whole british population.
How can you see this 2.7% taking over the 97.3% over the country?
And thats just one country.

Affable

ionix5891 wrote: »

And what are these intentions?

i dont see why religion has to do anything with politics. the two shouldn't be allowed to mix, parties shouldn't have the words "CHRISTIAN DEMOCRAT" in it. the state should be completely secular, we have states to serve the people by the people, not to answer to some entity called church who worship an entity that doesnt exist

Muslims never wanted to state to be separate. What do you think Sharia law is?

To spread islam and islamic rule.

ionix5891

Affable wrote: »

Muslims never wanted to state to be separate. What do you think Sharia law is?

To spread islam and islamic rule.

What do you think the Catholic church with its gold plated altars is?

THIS WEEK They are getting the state (an in turn the taxpayers a portion of whom where abused) to pay for the kids they molested, so much for separation of state and church...

woa just woa

af_thefragile wrote: »

Atheists like Richard Dawkins are the worst at this with their "there is probably no god" slogans..

Do you have proof for the existence of "god", there's nothing wrong with that statement unless you can disprove it

P. Breathnach

In any movement -- religious, political, youth culture, football supporters, you-name-it -- you are likely to find an extremist fringe. It is wrong to blame the majority for the actions of those extremists. If you do so, you might drive more towards the fringe.

Of course one should address any threat or problem represented by extremists, and it is often best to enlist the assistance of the moderates in the movement in dealing with them. Potentially, the best allies in tackling extremist Muslims are the moderate Muslims.

af_thefragile

ionix5891 wrote: »

Do you have proof for the existence of "god", there's nothing wrong with that statement unless you can disprove it

Thats not the point. The point is him preaching his religion (yes, atheism is a religion, i said it!) around just like people from other religion do. Everyone has their freedom to practice and preach their religion so why do you need to be selectively worried about "all those Islamists coming and preaching their Islam around here and Islamifying Europe!".




Also the full slogan was "There is probably no god so stop worrying and be happy". And what makes him think people who believe in god are all worried and unhappy?
Anyway, this is not a religious forum so i'm not gonna go into all that.

Affable

ionix5891 wrote: »

What do you think the Catholic church with its gold plated altars is?

I know. I hate them too tbh, I'm not keen on any religious people that much, apart from deists.

ionix5891

af_thefragile wrote: »

Also the full slogan was "There is probably no god so stop worrying and be happy". And what makes him think people who believe in god are all worried and unhappy?
Anyway, this is not a religious forum so i'm not gonna go into all that.

if they werent worried or unhappy and why are they calling Jihads? why are they molesting kids??

the thread is about politics and religion since Islam and Kevin Myer are mentioned

af_thefragile wrote: »

Thats not the point. The point is him preaching his religion (yes, atheism is a religion, i said it!) around just like people from other religion do.

Atheism is the position that deities do not exist,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[3]

atheism is not a religion, its a complete rejection of such, please see the definition, Dawkins has an agenda to sell his books but its a bit shallow to call Atheism a religion, just shows how much you know

af_thefragile wrote: »

Everyone has their freedom to practice and preach their religion so why do you need to be selectively worried about "all those Islamists coming and preaching their Islam around here and Islamifying Europe!".

Everyone has a freedom to worship whatever orbiting teacup they believe in

im not worried about Islam, so im not sure why you addressed it at me

Affable wrote: »

I know. I hate them too tbh, I'm not keen on any religious people that much, apart from deists.

same as i said earlier, religion should just be confined to whatever crazy belief people have, not be allowed near politics

Affable

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In any movement -- religious, political, youth culture, football supporters, you-name-it -- you are likely to find an extremist fringe. It is wrong to blame the majority for the actions of those extremists. If you do so, you might drive more towards the fringe.

Of course one should address any threat or problem represented by extremists, and it is often best to enlist the assistance of the moderates in the movement in dealing with them. Potentially, the best allies in tackling extremist Muslims are the moderate Muslims.

http://defeatthethirdjihad.com/2009/02/islamic-imperialism-and-supremacism.html

Affable

ionix5891 wrote: »

same as i said earlier, religion should just be confined to whatever crazy belief people have, not be allowed near politics

It's not seperable, if there are religious contituents and MPs.

Nodin

Affable wrote: »

Muslims never wanted to state to be separate. What do you think Sharia law is?

To spread islam and islamic rule.

'Some muslims'. Even within a grouping like Sunni Islam there's various different approaches. And within those religous groups theres various nationalties and political factions.

Theres far more dangerous and annoying things to worry about in this life than muslims. Start with Michael Fingletons 27.6 million pension and the cap on Church compensation. Theres threads there already.

ionix5891

Affable wrote: »

It's not seperable, if there are religious contituents and MPs.

then they will find solace in the lunatic fringe parties

Affable

ionix5891 wrote: »

then they will find solace in the lunatic fringe parties

It's not minority lunatics. A ton of people funded the IRA right?
Well even more muslims would support extreme Islam. 40% in a survey supported sharia law.

ionix5891

Affable wrote: »

It's not minority lunatics. A ton of people funded the IRA right?
Well even more muslims would support extreme Islam. 40% in a survey supported sharia law.

if they cant detach their beliefs from an imaginary entity that doesn't exist then one can question their right to vote, one of the reason for not allowing children to vote is that they can not make rational decisions, that can be applied to religious nuts too

wes

The man is a joke imho. He seems to go out of his way to be controversial and it doesn't really matter whether what he says make any sense, he will just say it regardless.

af_thefragile

ionix5891 wrote: »

if they werent worried or unhappy and why are they calling Jihads? why are they molesting kids??

the thread is about politics and religion since Islam and Kevin Myer are mentioned

This thread is not about discussing which religion is right or wrong.
I don't know why they're fighting their jihad or molesting kids. They might be screwed in the head. Who knows! Ask them!

atheism is not a religion, its a complete rejection of such, please see the definition, Dawkins has an agenda to sell his books but its a bit shallow to call Atheism a religion, just shows how much you know.

Atheism is a belief that there is no god. More fundamentally atheism (from the definition of "religion") "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe" and so it is a religion, just like all other religions.
I know enough about atheism to call it just another bunch of people with a similar belief about life and universe.
Dawkins is convinced he has got it all right and wants to sell his book by looking down on people who don't believe in what he does and no one is gonna stop him or complain about him.
A bunch of muslims want to live their lives their way without interfering with people who don't share their believes, the world goes mad!

Everyone has a freedom to worship whatever orbiting teacup they believe in

im not worried about Islam, so im not sure why you addressed it at me

I didn't address anything towards you. You started the debate about god.

same as i said earlier, religion should just be confined to whatever crazy belief people have, not be allowed near politics

I completely agree with you.

ionix5891

@af_thefragile

not gonna quote whole post as its long

but yes we have an agreement about something

we could debate the finer points of atheism (the word means lack of religion) and how calling it a religion makes no sense, but ill stop there

as for bringing up the molesting catholic priests, that was done to put things in perspective for the posters in this thread who have a clear anti Islam slant, they should take care of their own mess first

i personally think all religions cause all sorts of problems in this world, and once again we need less baggage when it comes to politics

af_thefragile

ionix5891 wrote: »

@af_thefragile

not gonna quote whole post as its long

but yes we have an agreement about something

we could debate the finer points of atheism (the word means lack of religion) and how calling it a religion makes no sense, but ill stop there

as for bringing up the molesting catholic priests, that was done to put things in perspective for the posters in this thread who have a clear anti Islam slant, they should take care of their own mess first

i personally think all religions cause all sorts of problems in this world, and once again we need less baggage when it comes to politics

I believe politics should be kept completely separate from religion. The government should be for the protection of people rather than the fulfillment of some group be it religious or corporate (like it is today).

But i don't believe religions cause problems. Its the people who decide to use religion for their personal gains that cause problems in the world. Even if there would be no religion, people would still continue fighting over things and causing problems in the world. What people need to change is their mindset and attitude rather than their religion.

InFront

ionix5891 wrote: »

if they cant detach their beliefs from an imaginary entity that doesn't exist then one can question their right to vote

Can you actually be serious...? Making the rights of freedom of religions and the right to vote mutually exclusive? Things like this give atheism its bad name.

As for Myers, some of what he says is fair, but I can't help but feel he loves the immigration notoriety.

ionix5891

InFront wrote: »

Can you actually be serious...? Making the rights of freedom of religions and the right to vote mutually exclusive? Things like this give atheism its bad name.

As for Myers, some of what he says is fair, but I can't help but feel he loves the immigration notoriety.

Put it this way

would you allow a 10 year old to vote?

no?

why??

wes

ionix5891 wrote: »

Put it this way

would you allow a 10 year old to vote?

no?

why??

Denying people the right to vote, regardless of how crazy there beliefs is a road would inevitably lead to some pretty messed up things.

The way I see it anyone who is an adult has a right to vote, no matter how crazy what they believe is.

Also, how do you define what is a crazy belief btw? Who get to decide this? If we were to go down this road. Do we ban communists (or even regular Socialists) from voting as Capitalists think there economic system is crazy and unworkable, or vice versa? Its a slippery slope to ban people from voting imho.

ionix5891

wes wrote: »

Denying people the right to vote, regardless of how crazy there beliefs is a road would inevitably lead to some pretty messed up things.

The way I see it anyone who is an adult has a right to vote, no matter how crazy what they believe is.

Also, how do you define what is a crazy belief btw? Who get to decide this? If we were to go down this road. Do we ban communists (or even regular Socialists) from voting as Capitalists think there economic system is crazy and unworkable, or vice versa? Its a slippery slope to ban people from voting imho.

so why dont we allow kids to vote for the National Santa Claus Party

if someone places the law of God above the law of the state then why should they have a say in the running of such a state?

most religious people understand the separation between the state and church, and thats quite fine, keep religion in churches and politicians in the parliament

btw all these issues are being played out now in Turkey (the country hated by Kevin), where the state was founded on secular ideas. NOT on religious beliefs as the as church (Islamic one) is trying to make

.

InFront

ionix5891 wrote: »

Put it this way

would you allow a 10 year old to vote?

no?

why??

A ten year old does not usually have the awareness of economic, social or European issues that an adult might because he or she is busy being a kid andcan't take these things into account when choosing a Government. Meh, I think you know you're talking rubbish tbh.

Firetrap

I don't necessarily agree with everything that he says but there should definitely be a reasoned debate on the issues.

ionix5891

InFront wrote: »

A ten year old does not usually have the awareness of economic, social or European issues that an adult might because he or she is busy being a kid andcan't take these things into account when choosing a Government. Meh, I think you know you're talking rubbish tbh.

look i realize some people are slightly religious and they can separate their political opinions from the religious ones

but what about the people who cant? those heavily religious people who think:
* kids should we all be allowed to be molested
* our women have to wear duvets head to toe
* got to war because god said so

yes a kid is too busy growing up and learning, but some adults are too busy worshiping a non existent entity represented by a religious cartels

InFront

Yes the Government should be allowed to take away your right to vote. Great idea. I' surprised it hasn't been done like in history and stuff?

wes

ionix5891 wrote: »

so why dont we allow kids to vote for the National Santa Claus Party

if someone places the law of God above the law of the state then why should they have a say in the running of such a state?

most religious people understand the separation between the state and church, and thats quite fine, keep religion in churches and politicians in the parliament

btw all these issues are being played out now in Turkey (the country hated by Kevin), where the state was founded on secular ideas. NOT on religious beliefs as the as church (Islamic one) is trying to make

.

Why are you just going after ultra-religious people? Sure, would not a crazy ultra nationalists be just as bad a any crazy religious nut. Both groups have caused a lot of trouble for people. The same goes for communists.

Also, who gets to decide who craziness is so crazy they have to be stripped of the right to vote? Its a huge slippery slope.

Also, I think you know the difference between a child and adult and how there very different from the above groups.

Basically, taking away people rights to vote is nuts, so should we ban those guys too ? Basically we would end up in a crazy situation were everybody would be trying to take away everyone else voting rights and to be honest, you idea reminds me of Starship Troopers.

ionix5891

InFront wrote: »

Yes the Government should be allowed to take away your right to vote. Great idea. I' surprised it hasn't been done like in history and stuff?

why the governemnt?

why not have a Driving License type of institution?

get your voting card if you can:
* show commitment to the state (above other concerns)
* know the differences between left and right in politics
* show basic knowledge of how the political system works at local/national/eu levels
* tell difference between representative and direct democracy


driving licenses are issued as not knowing the rules of the road and how to drive can kill people

well electing the wrong people can kill even more people (Nazi Germany), start wars (USA in Iraq) and force misery on nation (N. Korea), or bankrupt a country (Ireland)

so here we have a Political Driving/Voting License test

wes wrote: »

, you idea reminds me of Starship Troopers.

do we get giant space faring bugs

wes wrote: »

Why are you just going after ultra-religious people? Sure, would not a crazy ultra nationalists be just as bad a any crazy religious nut. Both groups have caused a lot of trouble for people. The same goes for communists.

Also, who gets to decide who craziness is so crazy they have to be stripped of the right to vote? Its a huge slippery slope.

yes I agree it is a slippery slope, and no im not singling out religious people (just the extreme nuts), but i think history has shown as to what can happen if extremists like Church in Middle Ages, Nazis or Communists last century, come to power

.

P. Breathnach

Firetrap wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree with everything that he says but there should definitely be a reasoned debate on the issues.

You mean something like the discussion here?

MikeC101

ionix5891 wrote: »

well electing the wrong people can kill even more people (Nazi Germany), start wars (USA in Iraq) and force misery on nation (N. Korea), or bankrupt a country (Ireland)
.

Don't think there were ever elections in North Korea in fairness - there's an example of what can happen when the state takes away citizens right to vote.

InFront

ionix5891 wrote: »

yes I agree it is a slippery slope, and no im not singling out religious people (just the extreme nuts), but i think history has shown as to what can happen if extremists like Church in Middle Ages, Nazis or Communists last century, come to power

The set up state institutions to take away civil liberties and the right to vote?

ionix5891

MikeC101 wrote: »

Don't think there were ever elections in North Korea in fairness - there's an example of what can happen when the state takes away citizens right to vote.

true point my bad, cant find many examples of communists being voted in voluntarily, but nazis where voted in

InFront wrote: »

The set up state institutions to take away civil liberties and the right to vote?

an institution to administer exams to citizens to make sure they are aware of how politics works, which is meant to be the job of CSPE course in schools? before granting them a right to vote. not to take away rights but to ensure that people have understanding of the system and what can go wrong

in a similar manner as driver license tests ensure citizens can drive vehicles safely at high speed without killing others

for example last years referendum was filled with lies that would be obvious to anyone with a slight knowledge of politics

.

The Raven.

Back on topic:

I have great admiration for Kevin Myers. He is a great supporter of freedom of speech, and refuses to be bullied by ignorant accusations of racism.

His main argument in this interview is centred on the fact that, as the immigration policies in Ireland are somewhat incoherent in terms of future planning, this situation requires open debate and analysis. I find nothing wrong with that aspiration.

ionix5891

The Raven. wrote: »

Back on topic:

I have great admiration for Kevin Myers. He is a great supporter of freedom of speech, and refuses to be bullied by ignorant accusations of racism.

His main argument in this interview is centred on the fact that, as the immigration policies in Ireland are somewhat incoherent in terms of future planning, this situation requires open debate and analysis. I find nothing wrong with that aspiration.

is mr Kevin Myers even Irish?

The Raven.

ionix5891 wrote: »

is mr Kevin Myers even Irish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

ionix5891

The Raven. wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

so he wasnt born nor grew up here... and his parents were immigrants ....

funny how someone with his background like that would have such views on immigration :rolleyes:

im sorry but this guy is a nut case, reading the controversies he caused are particularly insightful

.

The Raven.

ionix5891 wrote: »

so he wasnt born nor grew up here... and his parents were immigrants ....

'Myers was born to an Irish emigrant family in Leicester.' He has been living in Ireland since the sixties at least: over 40 years. Have you been here that long ?

funny how someone with his background like that would have such views on immigration :rolleyes:

What 'background'? What views on immigration? Can you be more specific?

im sorry but this guy is a nut case, reading the controversies he caused are particularly insightful

.

You are entitled to your views and freedom of speech, just as he is. My view is that he is certainly not a 'nut case'. He is highly intelligent and well educated.

ionix5891

The Raven. wrote: »

'Myers was born to an Irish emigrant family in Leicester.' He has been living in Ireland since the sixties at least: over 40 years. Have you been here that long ?



What 'background'?



You are entitled to your views and freedom of speech, just as he is. My view is that he is certainly not a 'nut case'. He is highly intelligent and well educated.

oh so its ok for us to emigrate out of this country but not for others to immigrate here, no matter how bright they are

what if the British weren't so tolerant of the Irish immigrants back then (or listened to the likes of himself), where would he be now?

him discussing immigration is hippocrisy

.