The best club team in the NH

Bounty Hunter

Someone posed me this question before the final today (we both thought Leinster would win and both wanted that and thought they deserved it when they did), Are Leinster (or whoever wins) now the best club team in the Northern hemisphere?

before i could answer he then added, or like with New Zealand who he said were still considerd the best team in the world even though they didnt win the world cup, did the best team just have one bad day and get knocked out?



now i dont want to start any arguements (tbh only the way you choose to repond can do that) or take away from Leinsters achievement but it is true that 2/3 games this year they lost to Munster for example. They did do it however when it counted.

Personally i found it hard to give an answer and ended up kinda sitting on the fense on this one. Honestly i could see Munster winning 6/10 games between the two but it didnt seem right to say they were the best team in the NH.

I know schedule wise it would never work, but i always wanted to see some sort of SH vs NH club competition also even if it was just say the winner of the HC play their runner up, whoever wins then facing the winner of our runners up vs their winners. In rugby unlike other sports there really is a NH vs SH mentality yet the two opposing sides dont ever face each other, closest we get is the Lions vs one SH country in a tour.

Four-Percent

Just be glad that it's an irish team.

Bounty Hunter

I am, wasnt an Irish guy asking me though was an Ozzie mate

DM_7

That is a hard question, there are so many variables to consider. What do we consider to arrive at the conclusion of the best team?

Do we consider the french don't always treat the Heineken Cup with enough respect to know if one of them is the best.

Do we consider that in england they handicap their teams by making the top players play every week. It has an impact on their national team (that they are making changes to reduce) and club sides in the HC (would leicester have lost by 3 points if they didn't have the prem final last week?).

For me Irish teams have the best mix of preperation and talent. Munster would be the best league side while Leinster the best Cup side.

For me Munster have the best 15 and are the more impressive of the Irish sides on paper.

Leinster were tactically the best team in one off games. Therefore, for me they are worthy of the title 'Best team in the Northern Hemisphere' for any SH v NH game.

Bounty Hunter

I think that is very true about the Irish probably being the best set up to tackle the HC

DM_7

The SH v NH game would be good for rugby I think.

The format of it could be tricky but I would love to see it.

DM_7

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

I think that is very true about the Irish probably being the best set up to tackle the HC

I think the IRFU deserve alot of credit.

The set up aides the success and there is no better way of bringing in new Irish talent than in successful teams. They have been able to bring in great talent from abroad while keeping places open for Irish players.

Chucky the tree

Similar came up in this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055573078


Leinster had a huge advantage this year with them being out of the ML for awhile and being able to rest players etc etc. I think if a team cant win their own league at the same time as winning the HEC it's a bit much to call them the best team in europe.

DM_7

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Similar came up in this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055573078


Leinster had a huge advantage this year with them being out of the ML for awhile and being able to rest players etc etc. I think if a team cant win their own league at the same time as winning the HEC it's a bit much to call them the best team in europe.

Thanks. I didn't mean to overlap on other threads. I mentioned it as something to consider when deciding upon the best team to put forward for a Southern v Northern game.

I don't consider Leinster the best team full stop, but as regards a SH v NH match I think tactically they have proved themselves the best for a knock out / one off game. If it was to take place in two weeks time they would be most deserving and best prepared.

pickarooney

Leinster's hardly a 'club' team really, is it?

Does anyone else feel that we're kind of cheating by entering our provincial teams in the HEC and ML instead of actual clubs?

Vanhalla

its not a hard question. munster are the best. simple as

Four-Percent

Vanhalla wrote: »

its not a hard question. munster are the best. simple as

Right so, we'll all take your word for it.

pickarooney wrote: »

Leinster's hardly a 'club' team really, is it?

Does anyone else feel that we're kind of cheating by entering our provincial teams in the HEC and ML instead of actual clubs?

No, our provinces have about the same population as the region surrounding an english or french club.Like there are less people in Munster than in Paris.

thehighground

pickarooney wrote: »

Leinster's hardly a 'club' team really, is it?

Does anyone else feel that we're kind of cheating by entering our provincial teams in the HEC and ML instead of actual clubs?

Why should we feel guilty? Toulouse has twice the budget Munster has which is the real difference.

Official European Rankings here which is worked out over 5 years.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/121_9900.php

But can I suggest you leave who is the top dog - Leinster really earned the Heineken Cup they won today and will now really become a force to be reckoned with.

Vanhalla

Vanhalla wrote: »

its not a hard question. munster are the best. simple as

Are they?
I could have sworn they got hammered by the team that just won the cup.

DM-ICE wrote: »

For me Munster have the best 15 and are the more impressive of the Irish sides on paper.

Whatever about Munster having the best team,they most certainly do not have the best players in Ireland by a long mile,they punch well above their weight.
I wonder so some posters even watch rugby.

Vanhalla

do u even watch rugby! of course musnter have the best 15. we have the grand slam winning pack more or less. doug howlett. mafi . warick
how do we punch well above our weight plz tell me?
and if munster played leinster next weekend and the weekend after. munster would win! when u guys have got to so many finals and won at least 2 then maybe ye might be up there

DM_7

Yaretzi Juicy Teeth wrote: »

Whatever about Munster having the best team,they most certainly do not have the best players in Ireland by a long mile,they punch well above their weight.
I wonder so some posters even watch rugby.

IMO
out of the Irish sides, that i was talking about when i made the comment, Munster have the best set of 15 when matched to any other Irish sides 15.

Vanhalla

Vanhalla wrote: »

do u even watch rugby! of course musnter have the best 15. we have the grand slam winning pack more or less. doug howlett. mafi . warick
how do we punch well above our weight plz tell me?
and if munster played leinster next weekend and the weekend after. munster would win! when u guys have got to so many finals and won at least 2 then maybe ye might be up there

yes I do watch rugby,you clearly dont.
Hayes
Flannery
Poc
O'Leary
Would get in the Leinster team.

Possibly
Mafi (Darcy is showing his class these days,Mafi has a better season but Darcy has more skill)
Howlett(he would walk it if he still had pace,Fitzgerald is better than him at his stage of his career)
O'Callahan (SP) ( I would have Cullen ,he has more dog in him)
Wallace(I love the guy,him and Jennings is too tough to call)

would get in the leinster team and thats it.

What the hell has the grand slam winning pack have to do with anything?
Ireland have a ****e pack.

The Ireland back row is weaker than the leinster one.
The Ireland back line is weaker than the Leinster one.

Vanhalla

how has darcy more skill that mafi! they are both steppers. neither are great passers. and bolox to cullen before o callaghan!

wowy

It's a good thing that there aren't any other teams in the Northern Hemisphere other than Leinster or Munster. Otherwise this thread could very possibly have gone off topic. Heaven forbid.

Vanhalla

Vanhalla wrote: »

how has darcy more skill that mafi! they are both steppers. neither are great passers. and bolox to cullen before o callaghan!

Both steppers but darcy is a better player.He has done it over years.
Mafi was an average player in the super 14 he coulodnt even make the bench.

O'Callaghan is the most overrated player in the world,cullen is a better player than him.

wowy wrote: »

It's a good thing that there aren't any other teams in the Northern Hemisphere other than Leinster or Munster. Otherwise this thread could very possibly have gone off topic. Heaven forbid.

Clermont have the best team in Europe.

Diamondmaker

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Similar came up in this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055573078


Leinster had a huge advantage this year with them being out of the ML for awhile and being able to rest players etc etc. I think if a team cant win their own league at the same time as winning the HEC it's a bit much to call them the best team in europe.

Well noone managed that and Leisnetr DID beat the relevant English and ML champs on the way to this crown while also being formerly the ML champs, given no French made the semis I think its fair that beationg the ML and EPL champs on the way is enough to confriom hen bestin Europe this season.

This thread is crazy with all these crazy hoops being thrown up by the begrudgers required to be jumped through for their fantasy arm chair best team in Europe title. I could have sworn the officiating bodies and great teams of the NH agreed that was deceided by the ERC Cup ??

Further to these small facts Leintster were ML champs last year, beating Munster twice that year, when the they won the ERC Cup, we must hve been the best in Europe then, if not this season, by some of these crazy criteria........! :rolleyes:

Crazy crazy thread........get real guys.

It gets no simpler: win ERC cup via beating the EPL winners and ML winners en route .........

Tomtom364

Good god.

The erc have a ranking system that uses the last 4 years results from all comps.

Munster are no.1 team.

Pretty simple. I think the win puts leinster 2nd but i could be wrong

danthefan

Leinster won the European cup, taking out 3 former champions with 6 HEC wins between them. Best team in Europe now, pretty simple.


Re. the ERC rankings - at the end of the day they're arbitrary. Accounting for 4 years ago is no way to judge who the current best teams around are. Wasps and Biarritz are both still hanging around the top of the list, when neither are anywhere near that level.

Chucky the tree

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Well noone managed that and Leisnetr DID beat the relevant English and ML champs on the way to this crown while also being formerly the ML champs, given no French made the semis I think its fair that beationg the ML and EPL champs on the way is enough to confriom hen bestin Europe this season.

This thread is crazy with all these crazy hoops being thrown up by the begrudgers to jump through.

It gets no simpler: win ERC cup via beating the EPL winners and ML winners en route .........

They beat them in one off matches. Didn't Munster beat Leinster twice in the ML this year? Also Leicester played in the GP final just a week ago which physically would of been very difficult for them. Not to mention a GP play off aswell the week before, Leinster last serious match was against Munster in the semi final. It's hardly begrudging, no one is saying they didnt deserve to win the HEC but calling someone the best team in europe best of a few one off matches is stupid I think. :rolleyes:

Tomtom364

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Good god.

The erc have a ranking system that uses the last 4 years results from all comps.

Munster are no.1 team.

Pretty simple. I think the win puts leinster 2nd but i could be wrong

Over the past 4 years Munster have been the best team.
This year Leinster were the best team.

Munster have been the All Blacks of europe but give us our dues,we have been the best team in europe this year.

We have beaten the H cup champs and best team at that time,the guiness premiership champs and the form team in England in quinns.

Diamondmaker

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Good god.

The erc have a ranking system that uses the last 4 years results from all comps.

Munster are no.1 team.

Pretty simple. I think the win puts leinster 2nd but i could be wrong

You beter tell someone to give em a trophy cos maybe the ERC forgot that !

As you stated based on 4 year old data.

With regard to the official best team in Europe title...
Leinster are the here and now Munster the has beens.

Its harsh to say but when people start trotting out info based on 4 yeaar old data you gotta ...........

Bounty Hunter

i hope people dont take the OP out of context, i wanted Leinster to win and am happy they did fair play to them. I only used Munster as the example cos they have played 3 times and the new champs only won 1 (which i pointed out was the most importnat 1). Someone says clearmont have the best players and the point has also been made that the French dont treat the HC the same as their own league so is it really that bad of me to ask if Leinster are now the best team in the NH or just the team that won the cup this year. If i caused anyone offense or if others use this thread as an exuse to do so im sorry but i think its a valid question

danthefan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

They beat them in one off matches. Didn't Munster beat Leinster twice in the ML this year? Also Leicester played in the GP final just a week ago which physically would of been very difficult for them. Not to mention a GP play off aswell the week before, Leinster last serious match was against Munster in the semi final. It's hardly begrudging, no one is saying they didnt deserve to win the HEC but calling someone the best team in europe best of a few one off matches is stupid I think. :rolleyes:

Yeah crazy idea, basing it on a competition where all the best teams in Europe play each other until only 1 is left. Who thought that up?

Bounty Hunter

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

i hope people dont take the OP out of context, i wanted Leinster to win and am happy they did fair play to them. I only used Munster as the example cos they have played 3 times and the new champs only won 1 (which i pointed out was the most importnat 1). Someone says clearmont have the best players and the point has also been made that the French dont treat the HC the same as their own league so is it really that bad of me to ask if Leinster are now the best team in the NH or just the team that won the cup this year. If i caused anyone offense or if others use this thread as an exuse to do so im sorry but i think its a valid question

That was me.
The French do have the best squads and they dont prioritise the H cup.
Look at Clermonts squad,its insane.
John Smit didnt even get his game for them.

There is a difference though between teams and squads.

Diamondmaker

Chucky the tree wrote: »

They beat them in one off matches. Didn't Munster beat Leinster twice in the ML this year? Also Leicester played in the GP final just a week ago which physically would of been very difficult for them. Not to mention a GP play off aswell the week before, Leinster last serious match was against Munster in the semi final. It's hardly begrudging, no one is saying they didnt deserve to win the HEC but calling someone the best team in europe best of a few one off matches is stupid I think. :rolleyes:

By God Munster got the tag of best team in Europe; purely by winning a series of these "one off matches" or Cup Games and never having won the League....How in the hell can we not have the tile, the season after we proved we could win the league.

This thread is insnae and pathetic I really cant belive the irony in some of the begrudging posts. Over and out on my behalf I ll let th ERC decide this argument in a way that was good enough for other in the past.

remus808

Yaretzi Juicy Teeth wrote: »

That was me.
The French do have the best squads and they dont prioritise the H cup.
Look at Clermonts squad,its insane.
John Smit didnt even get his game for them.

There is a difference though between teams and squads.

Toulouse have a better squad TBH, probably Stade too.

Chucky the tree

danthefan wrote: »

Yeah crazy idea, basing it on a competition where all the best teams in Europe play each other until only 1 is left. Who thought that up?

All the best team's dont get to play each other since it's a cup competition, did Leinster play toulouse this year? Nope.

Diamondmaker wrote: »

By God Munster got the tag of best team in Europe; purely by winning a series of these "one off matches" or Cup Games and never having won the League....How in the hell can we not have the tile, the season after we proved we could win the league.

This thread is insnae and pathetic I really cant belive the irony in some of the begrudging posts. Over and out on my behalf I ll let th ERC decide this argument in a way that was good enough for other in the past.

Munster title was bull**** as well. I wouldn't let ERC decide it if I was you, http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/121_9900.php which btw I also think is bull****.

danthefan

Leinster didn't get to play Toulouse because they weren't good enough to reach the latter rounds of the competition.

thehighground

Here is another table, with various method of calculations which includes all NH leagues (but hasn't yet included today's result which might actually mean Leinster's win today over Leicester might put Munster in the top spot)


1 Leicester: 100.00 no change
2 Munster: 96.65 no change
3 Toulouse: 88.08 up 2
4 Perpignan: 87.91 up 2
5 Leinster: 85.68 down 1
6 Cardiff Blues: 83.42 down 3
7 Harlequins: 83.16 no change
8 Clermont-Auvergne: 80.81 up 1
9 London Irish: 78.95 down 1
10 Wasps: 78.69 no change

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

This is the official rankings - and how the Heineken Cup will be seeded for next year. Leinster were 7th after Wasps and have now moved up to 3rd. I think this is a fairly good system basing it on 5 years.

Rank Total Points
1 Munster 33
2. Leicester Tigers 26
3. Leinster 24
4. Toulouse 21
5. Bath Rugby 20
6. Biarritz Olympique Pays Basque 20
7. London Wasps 19
8. Cardiff Blues 16
9. Stade Francais Paris 14

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/121_9900.php

Edit: I used the wrong link to the Official ERC Ranking list (which has been updated).

danthefan

Those first rankings there haven't been updated after the final.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Those first rankings there haven't been updated after the final.

I noted that on the post, if you care to read it again. No need to get so excited.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

I noted that on the post, if you care to read it again. No need to get so excited.

Excited? :rolleyes:

Sorry anyway, half asleep.

Diamondmaker

Chucky the tree wrote: »

All the best team's dont get to play each other since it's a cup competition, did Leinster play toulouse this year? Nope.




Munster title was bull**** as well. I wouldn't let ERC decide it if I was you, http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/121_9900.php which btw I also think is bull****.

We will just have to " * " title stating:

" won under normal, internationally accepted competition conditions and not under fantasy, rugby, dream team cup condiditions, whereby a series of opponenets are hurled into the ring as progressive challangers to decide the ultimate rugby champions once and for all "

Im happy with the former

juvenal

If you're unwilling to use the recognised competition formats to judge current form teams, then this question might as well be How long is a piece of string?:rolleyes:

We could spends weeks arguing the respective merits and strengths of various European leagues and cups, but the fact of the matter is that as long as the domestic leagues, cups and continental tournaments exist, they are the benchmark upon which teams are judged.

For example, because Cardiff Blues were the only team with a 100% record at the close of the pools stages, should we surmise that they were the best team in Europe at that point? Of course not, as the tournament was only at it's halfway point. If the tournament was based on pool performances, then yes, they would be the premier team, as that's what the record books would state. The nature of sporting seasons are that the campaign is a marathon, not a sprint.

In the absence of any alternative universally respected method to determine the top team or individual in any discipline, one has to acknowledge the existing competitions. A team can only beat what's in front of them, and in that regard the European champions are exactly that. Munster are Magners League champions, and Leinster are Heineken Cup champions, which would seem to throw up an anomoly, considering that both teams compete in the same competitions. Prestige aside, I think it's fair to say that Munster have been the most consistent league team in the Celtic Nations this year, but as the San Jose Sharks know, a consistent regular season doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be in the mix when the knockout silverware is being doled out. In that respect, Leinster are the best cup team in Europe, and given the prestige that teams from the Celtic Nations and England place on the Heineken Cup over their domestic tournaments, there's an argument to be made that they are currently the best team in Europe.

In years to come, the history books will only record one set of pertinent facts about the 2008/9 European rugby season (in no particular order;));

6 Nations: Ireland (Grand Slam)
Magners League (Ireland/Wales/Scotland): Munster Rugby
ERC Challenge Cup: Northampton
Heineken Cup: Leinster Rugby
Guinness Premiership Champions (England): Leicester Tigers
EDF Energy Anglo-Welsh Cup: Cardiff Blues
French Top 14: Perpignan/Toulouse/Stade Francais/Clermont

And the most important aspect of this list is that Irish teams have won three of the four tournaments they've participated in, and the 2008/9 season has been the most successful in the sport's history in our country. So, let's not get carried away with the cock-measuring, and just revel in the position that we find ourselves in, and that can't really be disputed - that Ireland is undoubtedly the dominant country in Northern Hemisphere rugby at the moment!:)

karmabass

karmabass wrote: »

Toulouse have a better squad TBH, probably Stade too.

No they dont.look at the squads before you write.

teednab-el

juvenal wrote: »

And the most important aspect of this list is that Irish teams have won three of the four tournaments they've participated in, and the 2008/9 season has been the most successful in the sport's history in our country.

What tournment did we not win?

juvenal

teednab-el wrote: »

What tournment did we not win?

Connaght in the Challenge Cup.

NickNolte

You're only as good as your last game. In theory, I reckon Munster are the best team in Europe. In reality? Leinster are the best team in Europe.

murphym7

Diamondmaker wrote: »

You beter tell someone to give em a trophy cos maybe the ERC forgot that !

As you stated based on 4 year old data.

With regard to the official best team in Europe title...
Leinster are the here and now Munster the has beens.

Its harsh to say but when people start trotting out info based on 4 yeaar old data you gotta ...........

Its four years of rolling data, not four year old data. Leinster are the current european champions and I am delighted, really I am. It was great watching Leinster winning today, but........ in context which some people have missed, consistency is king, Munster are the best team in europe over the past 4 years, not on 4 year old data. Averages rock:D:D Calling Munster has been's is dangerous talk!!:D:D Catch ye next year!!:D:D

Iang87

NickNolte wrote: »

You're only as good as your last game. In theory, I reckon Munster are the best team in Europe. In reality? Leinster are the best team in Europe.

i've read ****e in my day but by good that actually has a smell off it too. Munster on their day can beat almost anyone We nearly beat the all blacks for **** sake.

Yes Leinster beat us in the semi final however leinster scored i believe 5 points against us in the previous 160 minutes of rugby and you're hailing them as the best team in europe.

Also to put your argument right down the toilet where **** like this belongs our last match we beat the ospreys 36-10. Just so you know

Diamondmaker

murphym7 wrote: »

Its four years of rolling data, not four year old data. Leinster are the current european champions and I am delighted, really I am. It was great watching Leinster winning today, but........ in context which some people have missed, consistency is king, Munster are the best team in europe over the past 4 years, not on 4 year old data. Averages rock:D:D Calling Munster has been's is dangerous talk!!:D:D Catch ye next year!!:D:D

Munster consistently won the one off games but did not consistently win the competition where consistency is required - the league, until now.

Tongue twister eh

Leinster have done it the other way round and like wise back to back, just in reverse.

Its all irrelevant anyway I reckon the Munster boys would rather the dubious honour of "European Champions" than their current ranking No 1 any day.

danthefan

Iang87 wrote: »

i've read ****e in my day but by good that actually has a smell off it too. Munster on their day can beat almost anyone We nearly beat the all blacks for **** sake.

Yes Leinster beat us in the semi final however leinster scored i believe 5 points against us in the previous 160 minutes of rugby and you're hailing them as the best team in europe.

Also to put your argument right down the toilet where **** like this belongs our last match we beat the ospreys 36-10. Just so you know

Yep.

murphym7

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Munster consistently won the one off games but did not consistently win the competition where consistency is required - the league, until now.

Tongue twister eh

Leinster have done it the other way round and like wise back to back, just in reverse.

Its all irrelevant anyway I reckon the Munster boys would rather the dubious honour of "European Champions" than their current ranking No 1 any day.

Very true, fair play.

Serenity Now!

pickarooney wrote: »

Leinster's hardly a 'club' team really, is it?

Does anyone else feel that we're kind of cheating by entering our provincial teams in the HEC and ML instead of actual clubs?

Correct. They're not a club. You can't join Leinster or Munster. They're a provincial branch of the union but this is the only way the professional game can flourish as hugely as it is doing right now. No biggie.

Not cheating at all. Wales (where rugby union is popular in the south - North Wales is soccer country) have carried out the same regionalisation. Scotland needs to, for survival.
Simple consolidation of all resources affordably and manageably.

Never mind all this shash about 'population' etc. Bath barely has 100,000 people living there. Biarritz even less. Leicester has less than half the population of Dublin.

Who's best in competition? Tough to call but irrelevant all the same. Leinster are champions and thats all that matters right now with Irish rugby union on the biggest roll it has ever experienced (long may it continue).

Micky Dolenz

Munster may have the top seeding, but it's the team that lifts the highest award in European club rugby that has bragging rights to being the best team of the season.

Well done Leinster, they did their country proud.

What a year for Irish rugby. It should be cherished as it may be a while before we see another clean sweep.

NickNolte

Leinster are European champions, Munster aren't. Stop the fvcking pissing contest.