Child Abuse Inquiry Report - The Aftermath

Liber8or

I want this topic to deal with what should be done next.

I just finished watching the Late Late Show tonight and the Priest made an exemplary suggestion as where we should go from here. A National Day of Reflection and Commemoration. A Public Holiday for an Irish Holocaust should be established for the people of this country to never forget what happened over the years in the Institutions and for once in my life, I find myself agreeing with a Priest.

We should never forget what happened to these 35,000+ people.

So, I ask the people of Boards, do you agree? What do you suggest should happen on this day? Should it be secular or a day for the RCC in Ireland to offer something back to the public?

paddyboy23

why is enda kenny playing party politics with this terrible events were his party not in power in ireland in the last 70years why didnt he do this years ago is there no low ye guys wont stoop to get votes

todolist

This is a rotten sick island.It was the poorest children who suffered.The poor still suffer with a health service that keeps them on waiting lists while the well off skip the queues with private health insurance.The lesson of all this is don't be poor in Ireland.You'll pay dearly if you are,

Liber8or

Guys, I do appreciate the responses regarding what the report found, but that is for the other topic. I would like to explore what options we have for the future in this one. What should be done to commemorate and mark this disaster in Ireland?

EastWallGirl

The behaviour of the Church over this issue and not just in the last few days but the last few decades is that they are not sorry for what has happened but they are very sorry for being caught.

This is what should be done:

1) The chuch should pay half the 60 million it cost to do the report.

2) The agreement made in 2002, should be gone over with a fine tooth comb. this is important as it could be the straw that breaks the Irish piggy bank.

3) People need to realise that the only to make the Church feel repentence is to hit them in the back pocket. Their excuse is that the property is in trust for educational purposes, then hand the titles deeds over to department of Education and make Ratzinger sell some of his art work in Rome.

4) Victims need to name the priests, let them sue for slander.

5) The strangelhold of the Church over education needs to end. There is a right in the constitution for children to be educated, this right should not be contingent on children being christened. By their behaviour they have given up the right to to be involved in education.

Any day of commemoration should be done on the terms of the victims, not the perpetrator setting the agenda. How dare any of them with their crocodile tears want to help in the healing process, that would have been achieved by not disrupting the process of the inquiry. They have limitless amounts of money for solicitors but do not want to pay compensation for what they have done.

I have had a certain amount of respect for people that have stayed within the Church as I wish I had that sort of faith, but now, how could anyone want their name attached to an organisation that has done these things, it was not a few bad apples it was systemic and endemic.

futurehope

An end to any involvement of The RC church in Irish state education.

An unconditional apology from The Pope to The Irish people - a sincere one, not the normal clap trap.

RC church to pay for any help the victims need.

InFront

This point was made on Drivetime with Mary Wilson a few days ago so I'm not claiming credit and it's a good idea imo.

Many of the people who gave evidence in this investigation fled to England or left Ireland for another jurisdiction after they left these institutions upon reaching the legal age and stayed away. Others emigrated in later years.

Such people have taken it upon themselves and at their own expense to return to Ireland to give evidence and finally come to terms with their past. These institutions were their homes, and as such many now have no 'home' in the real sense to stay in when they visit Ireland.

A fitting mark of respect might be for the Catholic Church to provide such permanent accommodation, perhaps in Dublin, for these people to stay in. A shared property that would act as a comfortable and warm affectionate home in a sense for these abused victims when they come home to visit Ireland.

These people have been robbed of that sense of family and homeliness and I don't think that is too much for the Catholic Church to consider.

The_Minister

Surely The Irish Famine deserves a memorial day first?

Alot more people were hurt.

nesf

"Irish Holocaust"? Christ, you'd swear Catholic priests were going home-to-home armed with blood stained machetes..

carolmon

I'd like to see the criminals brought to justice.

Child abuse/ rape and assault are criminal acts.

Why are these people protected?

If they were lay people committing these acts there would be no such deal.

I really want this to happen and if anybody knows of any groups organising a petition/ march pleast let me know so I can be part of it.

Nodin

Liber8or wrote: »

. A Public Holiday for an Irish Holocaust

Unfortunately people can get a bit carried away with rhetoric.

Liber8or

Nodin wrote: »

Unfortunately people can get a bit carried away with rhetoric.

Not my words. Perhaps if you had read the topic, it was the Priest on the Late Late and other members of the panel that dubbed it this.

LookingFor

a) There should be a total revision of the rights of the child

b) Responsibility for child welfare in schools should be removed totally from the Church and placed in the hands of the state. The state might not do much better, but I'm willing to take my chances. And if they don't, at least they won't have the very powerful weapon of devotion on their side to protect themselves with.

c) The Church should be removed from any role in the education of children (same point as b, really, but put a little more specifically)

d) The Church/religious groups should voluntarily agree without quibble to cover at least 50% of the compensation burden and all expenses relating to this report.

e) If d) does not happen, ordinary members of the Church here should boycott the Church financially speaking. The government and other bodies should aggressively pursue any avenue to have the original agreement quashed. The government should also stop deferring to these groups on the matter of 'moral obligation' in this matter and make it clear that as far as they are concerned there is such an obligation, as I reckon most people in the country agree.

f) Rome should censure any member of its congregation who seeks to diminish what happened here or to praise abusers, and make it be known that there is no place for people who hold such opinions in the clerical heirarchy of the Church.

g) Michael Woods and the deal done with the Church should be carefully investigated.

h) An oversight body should be set up to monitor dealings between the government and religious groups to ensure that personal devotion on the part of specific ministers does not compromise their decision making in ensuring what's best for the people and the taxpayer

i) A memorial at least should be erected. I'm not sure if a public holiday should be arranged..I'm not saying it's not deserving, but as others have pointed out, there's probably a bit of a queue to be joined here.

Jack Sheehan

nesf wrote: »

"Irish Holocaust"? Christ, you'd swear Catholic priests were going home-to-home armed with blood stained machetes..

I think the idea was that this was something we all have to carry around now. Sort of like the German guilt over the holocaust.

Nodin

Liber8or wrote: »

Not my words.

I know, hence "People can get carried away......". Perhaps if you had read the post.

Serenity Now!

Liber8or wrote: »

Not my words. Perhaps if you had read the topic, it was the Priest on the Late Late and other members of the panel that dubbed it this.

:rolleyes:
Still a case of over-the-top rhetoric. The appropriate descript would be more towards Australia's Stolen Generation than Shoah.

goodcitizen

todolist wrote: »

This is a rotten sick island.It was the poorest children who suffered.The poor still suffer with a health service that keeps them on waiting lists while the well off skip the queues with private health insurance.The lesson of all this is don't be poor in Ireland.You'll pay dearly if you are,

I totally agree, I remember my first day at school ,just a normal kid at the age of 5, being beaten to a pulp by a sick nun ****. Anyway the Irish were always seen by the rest of the world as being half mad i.e. the famous quote " the crazy ****ing irish man" is a part of folklore, but the revelation by the report that not only the 'brothers' were taking part in the abuse but a lot of lay people in society that came to be in their company, took savage advantage of these unfortunate poor children as well not only lends creedance to the 'crazy ****ing irish man' rumour but that the irish were a savage and brutal race in those days.

Red Alert

LookingFor wrote: »

Does not happen, ordinary members of the Church here should boycott the Church financially speaking.

Would you also advocate people boycott church-supported organizations such as the Vincent de Paul?

JonathanAnon

Why the fcuk does the normal tax payer take the brunt of all this crap. 1.1bn, i.e. approx 220 euro per capita to pay for those vicious scumbags in the christian brothers. None of them are named, or prosecuted. And the church pays for 10% of the cost of the total bill, even though they knowingly moved offenders around instead of booting them out.

I am always reminded of Bertie's statement "it's a great little country". It's actually a corrupt, horrible place, where there is no justice for decent people and the only winners are criminals, layabouts or people who are in the right business/political cliques.

Hillel

The_Minister wrote: »

Surely The Irish Famine deserves a memorial day first?
Alot more people were hurt.

The treatment of children in the care of Catholic Institutions is a stain, not only on that discredited institution, but on everyone who acquiesced in what was going on. It is not the number of children invloved but, rather, that all this happened in our time and on our watch.

nesf wrote: »

"Irish Holocaust"? Christ, you'd swear Catholic priests were going home-to-home armed with blood stained machetes..

What a glib, smug, answer.:mad:
I suggest that you read some of the testimony and inform yourself as to exactly what was going on.
Or are you suggesting that children dying, being raped, burnt, and beaten so badly as to require hospitalisation is in any way acceptable?

ejmaztec

The Catholic Church should pay all costs, compensation etc., resulting from the enquiry. When they say that they haven't got the money, I don't believe them. When Bertie also says that the Catholic Church hasn't got the money, that definitely confirms that they have.

Nodin

Hillel wrote: »

What a glib, smug, answer.:mad:
I suggest that you read some of the testimony and inform yourself as to exactly what was going on.

Well I have read some of it, and take his view on the 'holocaust' comparison.

Hillel wrote: »

Or are you suggesting that children dying, being raped, burnt, and beaten so badly as to require hospitalisation is in any way acceptable?

A rather pathetic tactic.

MikeC101

Hillel wrote: »

What a glib, smug, answer.:mad:
I suggest that you read some of the testimony and inform yourself as to exactly what was going on.
Or are you suggesting that children dying, being raped, burnt, and beaten so badly as to require hospitalisation is in any way acceptable?

That is a disgraceful statement to make, and a very underhand attempt to demonise the poster.

They said what happened was not comparable to the holocaust.

They did not in any way say that children dying, being raped, burnt, and beaten so badly as to require hospitalisation is in any way acceptable.

LookingFor

Red Alert wrote: »

Would you also advocate people boycott church-supported organizations such as the Vincent de Paul?

No, not initially at the very least.

You know how a lot of places have two collections, one for the priests/'the church', and the other usually for some charity (or for the vatican on occasion e.g. peter's pence)? I know it's a blurry area, because you could say the priests are a charity themselves, but I would draw the line at the 'external' charitable organisations..I would support those collections, but not the rest.

It's a very sad state of affairs to have to be thinking about things like that, but I'm afraid the Church is no different to any other organisation in that effective action is usually brought about by hitting them where it hurts. And it appears that's the same place for the Church and the clergy as anywhere else - their wallets. If priests saw a significant drop in parish income, it would create internal pressure to address the situation. Moral incentive doesn't seem to count for the Church, regrettably given their position and what they claim to represent, but financial incentive might.

weiss

Hillel wrote:

What a glib, smug, answer.

Its a typical Irish answer, Hillel.
Nothing ever changes in this country.
Some people in this country belittle suffering, they actually enjoy seeing it themselves.
JonathanAnon hit the nail on the head, it is a horrible sh|tty place.

Serenity Now!

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Catholic Church should pay all costs, compensation etc., resulting from the enquiry. When they say that they haven't got the money, I don't believe them

They are one of the largest land-owners in the world and owners of the world's most valuable art collections.

No money...lol

The Raven.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

They are one of the largest land-owners in the world and owners of the world's most valuable art collections.

No money...lol

Precisely! And from what I gather, the State here didn't even bother to do a proper assessment of their wealth in Ireland before doing the scandalous Child Abuse compensation deal with them.

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

Its a typical Irish answer, Hillel.
Nothing ever changes in this country.
Some people in this country belittle suffering, they actually enjoy seeing it themselves.

No one belittled suffering. The comparison to the holocaust is not valid, and verging towards silly.

weiss

So Nodin, what you're arguing is, on a scale of 1 - 10 in terms of suffering, the holocaust was 10, and the abuse in orphanages was about a 6? would that be fair? Or have I missed something?

Souljacker

The church owns all the land schools are built on in the south no? So why don't they hand all those deeds over to compensate the Irish tax payer for the millions they've had to pay out on their behalf.

The abuse these children suffered is beyond comparison in the western world at peace time. It's a damning indictment on this country and something we should never forget.

Nodin you should read a bit of the Ryan report before you belittle the suffering of children in this state. There's a reason the victims of Irish weakness to the Church are known as survivors.

MikeC101

weiss wrote: »

So Nodin, what you're arguing is, on a scale of 1 - 10 in terms of suffering, the holocaust was 10, and the abuse in orphanages was about a 6? would that be fair? Or have I missed something?

This is hardly a situation you can put nice easy numbers on.

The systematic abuse of 35,000 innocents by those supposed to care for them is a shocking and unforgivable crime, but it's simply not the same as the bureaucratically administered destruction by the Nazis and their collaborators of six million Jews, up to half a million Romani and 200,000 disabled and mentally ill.

Trying to apply scales of 1 - 10 to something like this can't be done - how can you compare or measure individual suffering?

The child abuse scandal needs to be understood and dealt on it's own basis, without cheapening the suffering of those innocents by attempts to assign easy rhetoric to it.

weiss

MikeC101 wrote:

how can you compare or measure individual suffering?

It shouldn't be measured, but thats exactly what most people do.

They belittle the importance of what happened based the number of people affected.

Its almost like saying "ah sure jaysis, it wasn't that bad, was it? could be worse.."

Nodin

Souljacker wrote: »

Nodin you should read a bit of the Ryan report before you belittle the suffering of children in this state. There's a reason the victims of Irish weakness to the Church are known as survivors.

I've read large tracts of it. And maybe you should climb down off your hyperbole shod high horse before having the gall to accuse me or anyone else of 'belittling'.

Weiss wrote:

Or have I missed something? .

'some things' would be more appropriate.

Weiss wrote:

It shouldn't be measured, but thats exactly what most people do...

...you along with them, it seems.

Weiss wrote:

They belittle the importance of what happened based the number of people affected..

No one has belittled what happened, on this thread so far, as far as I can tell. I'd suggest quoting them, or dropping the wheedling and getting back on topic.

Nodin

The Raven. wrote: »

Precisely! And from what I gather, the State here didn't even bother to do a proper assessment of their wealth in Ireland before doing the scandalous Child Abuse compensation deal with them.

Indeed. If they're going to claim the coffers are empty, then let them be independently audited as proof. Certainly theres nothing in the attitude of many of those orders that would prompt someone to take their word for it.

weiss

Nodin wrote:

...you along with them, it seems.

Asking what scale between 1 and 10 you would judge the holocaust and child abuse in orphanages was a little hint there..

We don't have all the facts anyway, none of us are in any position to compare events unless we lived through them.

I've no doubt many kids died at the hands of the church and state which will be covered up forever.

And who takes responsibility? the man in the moon?

Taken from this article

The Christian Brothers, which ran several boys' institutions deemed to have harbored serial child molesters and sadists on their staff, insisted it had cooperated fully with the probe. The order successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.

Isn't Ireland such a great country? :rolleyes:

Hillel

nesf wrote: »

"Irish Holocaust"? Christ, you'd swear Catholic priests were going home-to-home armed with blood stained machetes..

Hillel wrote: »

What a glib, smug, answer.
I suggest that you read some of the testimony and inform yourself as to exactly what was going on.
Or are you suggesting that children dying, being raped, burnt, and beaten so badly as to require hospitalisation is in any way acceptable?

MikeC101 wrote: »

That is a disgraceful statement to make, and a very underhand attempt to demonise the poster.
They said what happened was not comparable to the holocaust.
They did not in any way say that children dying, being raped, burnt, and beaten so badly as to require hospitalisation is in any way acceptable.

@MikeC101


What was disgraceful was the attempt to play down the suffering visited on the children in care by making the comparison with “blood stained machetes”. The inference was that what happened in Irish Institutions was low down in the scale of human suffering – hence my fully warranted response. It was not my intent to demonise the OP, however, I was simply not prepared to let his post go unchallenged. Too many people in this country, for far too long, have been trying to trivialise what occured.

I agree that the crimes, bad as they were, were not comparable with the holocaust. However, they did have elements in common. People in positions of authority, people in government and many in the general populace had a very good idea about what was going on and closed their eyes to it. The rot was at the very heart of the establishment and, even today, the neglect of duty by civil servants and the government has been brushed under the carpet. Neither has there been any real acknowledgement by the general populace that their silence was a contributory factor.

Personally, I would not want a “day of atonement”. Lets not forget that religious fundamentalism, an obsequious government and a submissive populace were major contributors to this outrage. Rather, a civil memorial, that acknowledged state, civil and religious failings would be more appropriate. It is also time to put proper goverance in place for all schools, with enforced accountability.

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

And who takes responsibility? the man in the moon?

Certainly not the men in Rome, it would appear. However I read somewhere that there are now less than 250 Christian Brothers (when there were formerly over 4,000), and that they haven't had a vocation from Ireland in 20 years. That would suggest some progess at least.

Hillel wrote:

What was disgraceful was the attempt to play down the suffering visited on the children in care by making the comparison with “blood stained machetes”.

It wasn't an attempt to play anything down. The facts are that the state did not send children to those homes to be exterminated. Those homes were not set up to exterminate their inmates. Therefore a comparison with institutionalised mass murder is inappropriate. Presumably 'machetes' refers to the Rwandan genocide, carried out in an equally unambigously lethal manner.

I believe a more realistic comparison is offered here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60370518&postcount=16
or indeed the English children sent to Australia in the 1940's/1950's.

Sleazus

So Nodin, what you're arguing is, on a scale of 1 - 10 in terms of suffering, the holocaust was 10, and the abuse in orphanages was about a 6? would that be fair? Or have I missed something?

This is turning into one of those "Stalin was worse than Hitler" debates.

Can we not all accept that both were truly terrible deeds? I do believe the term Irish holocaust is incorrect on a purely lingual level - the term holocaust isn't applicable to the scenario that occurred, as horrible as it was.

population

Sleazus wrote: »

This is turning into one of those "Stalin was worse than Hitler" debates.

Can we not all accept that both were truly terrible deeds? I do believe the term Irish holocaust is incorrect on a purely lingual level - the term holocaust isn't applicable to the scenario that occurred, as horrible as it was.

I would agree that the term "Holocaust" is synonomous with one particularly dark chapter in human history and therefore it should be affiliated with that event so as not to remove its magnitude.

However, what happened to Irish children in care was sadistic, disgusting and babrbarous and I am not surprised it evokes such feelings of anger amongst people. The magnitude of what happened to our own citizens must never be forgotten.

In terms of how to commemorate this, it is always hard to strike the right balance, but an absolute prerequisite should be that the church have absolutely no involvment. Perpetrators of the crime can never be allowed to become stewards of the issue. Its like a rapist saying to a rape victim, "Well let me do something nice for you to make it up". It is preposterous.

They want to be involved, they want to make a gesture???

Here is a very simple gesture. Admit full liability and Pay up what YOU THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OWE TO THESE POOR PEOPLE

Hillel

population wrote: »

However, what happened to Irish children in care was sadistic, disgusting and babrbarous and I am not surprised it evokes such feelings of anger amongst people. The magnitude of what happened to our own citizens must never be forgotten.

It is a terrifying example of what can happen when a group in society can get an entirely inappropriate level of control and influence. The rot spread well outside the institutions. Many children attending schools had the living daylights beaten out of them, often on a frequent basis. Its not fair to (just) blame the church, either. People in positions of influence and authority turned a blind eye, too.

The sweetheart deal done with the Catholic Church is evidence that church and state are still far too closely linked. Such a cosiness is entirely inappropriate in any proclaimed republic. Full separation of the Catholic Church, from schools and hospitals, would be one small step in breaking from the past. Bring it on!

Nodin

I had expected some sort of token effort from the orders involved....an offer of a lump sum...big public group grovel, perhaps....

Religious congregations say they will not reopen discussions on the child abuse compensation deal agreed with the Government.

Following a day-long meeting the group and the Conference of Religious in Ireland have released statements reaffirming their commitment to survivors of abuse.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0525/abuse.html

...but no, the arrogance is still there.

rant_and_rave

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

I think the idea was that this was something we all have to carry around now. Sort of like the German guilt over the holocaust.

Fat chance. I give it four days then Jordan and her big tits will be back on the front page. That's the way the media cycle works.

rant_and_rave

If the Orders have the funds then they should pay more. The offered to pay half the original mount of expected compensation. The amount should be maintained as far as possible in any new deal. So I would say EU500 million.

SirHenryGrattan

Liber8or wrote: »

I want this topic to deal with what should be done next.

I just finished watching the Late Late Show tonight and the Priest made an exemplary suggestion as where we should go from here. A National Day of Reflection and Commemoration. A Public Holiday for an Irish Holocaust should be established for the people of this country to never forget what happened over the years in the Institutions and for once in my life, I find myself agreeing with a Priest.

We should never forget what happened to these 35,000+ people.

So, I ask the people of Boards, do you agree? What do you suggest should happen on this day? Should it be secular or a day for the RCC in Ireland to offer something back to the public?

I read the report and I am not totally surprised. As usual the poor get it in the neck. So what needs to be done? The perpetrators need tried in open court and convicted. No more star chambers. The abused will need to give evidence in court. We need to see the abuser and the abused and judge for ourselves. The Religious Orders who ran the organizations need to be prosecuted and there are two main culprits, The Christian Brothers and the Sisters of Mercy. They have a duty of care which they failed to fulfill. If necessary the State can pursue a class action on behalf of the abused. The Orders can transfer property to the State in lieu of compensation.

I don’t see a case for removing the Catholic Church’s responsibility for Catholic schools. There is no widespread evidence of systematic abuse in the secondary school system such as we have seen in the industrial schools. There are no cries of rape or buggery from all those rugby playing elitist Catholic schools in Dublin that count many Irish politicians as old boys. It was the poor and vulnerable who suffered which is why the crises remained invisible to Ireland’s comfortable middle class Catholic society who ran the country.

weiss

Nodin wrote:

...but no, the arrogance is still there.

Its obvious the church accept no responsibility for what happened.

They might say sorry in public, but it means absolutely nothing at all.

Incredible...how do they get away with it all?

thebman

Discussion on Questions and Answers right now for anyone interested with Noel Dempsey.

RTE 1.

Gingervitis

Some powerful stuff there...

The Saint

Gingervitis wrote: »

Some powerful stuff there...

Certainly brings it home.

thebman

Yeah I think that outburst of emotion will probably overshadow the rest of the show.

I think people will come out remembering that more than anything from the show. Really upsetting to watch

InFront

That was the most disturbing, honest and least political contribution I've seen on Q and A. The guy was incredibly brave to open up like, so vulnerably, on live television and really selflessly... hope something positive comes out of this if possible.

netron

Liber8or wrote: »

I just finished watching the Late Late Show tonight and the Priest made an exemplary suggestion as where we should go from here. A National Day of Reflection and Commemoration. A Public Holiday for an Irish Holocaust should be established for the people of this country to never forget what happened over the years in the Institutions and for once in my life, I find myself agreeing with a Priest.

so you'd also agree with Heinrich Himmler saying "sorry about all that" and having a national day of reflection? sponsored by the Nazi Party.

yeah.. good idea. NOT.