Religion, better off without it?

gimme5minutes

What are people's opinions on religion as a whole? Not just Christianity but any and all religions. Imo the world would have been 100 times better off if religions never existed. Hundreds of millions of people have died down the centuries through various conflicts that had religious origins. The current scandals in the Catholic Church are just the latest in a long line of reasons as why religion is a bad idea. It might look good on paper but in practise, over the last 2000 years, organised religion has proven to be an absolute unmitigated disaster causing immeasurable pain and suffering to the world's population. The disgraceful behaviour of the Church in Ireland far outweighs any good it has done or ever will do. They have destroyed tens of thousands of lives, directly and indirectly. Have they saved tens of thousands of lives in return? No, they certainly haven't. Similarly with Islam, the amount of good that has come out of it is miniscule compared to the suffering it's caused. The simple and most obvious example of this is the disgusting treatment of 50% of the Islamic population who are treated worse than slaves - women.

I think the last few thousand years are evidence enough that the greatest miracle any of could ever hope for is for all religions to be banished from the face of the earth forever.

conchubhar1

people kill people

religion has not and will not kill people

Ponster

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Have they saved tens of thousands of lives in return? No, they certainly haven't.

And you know this how exactly?

conchubhar1

because they are dead ^ ?

(this depends if you mean in the heavenly saved sense)

Biggins

conchubhar1 wrote: »

people kill people

religion has not and will not kill people

Right AND wrong at the same time. There is no black and white answer to this one.

People kill people but religion is perhaps the biggest excuse previously and currently being used to do so besides land grab/mineral grab issues.

My name is URL

It's easy to criticise and condemn things on a forum.

Problem is, nobody shows the same level of condemnation and intolerance of religion in everyday life, so we're stuck with it =(

And yes, I think we'd be far better off without it

Malari

conchubhar1 wrote: »

people kill people

religion has not and will not kill people

I don't think the OP meant that religion kills people directly.

I think the post refers to the motivation of people who kill, oppress, mutilate, terrorize, humiliate, justify crimes, etc etc, because they believe that their religion sanctions it.

I also don't think that religion is the sole cause of any of the above ills, but it certainly is a major contributor to the reason people do these things.

conchubhar1

they can give whatever reason they like

im religious, i didnt and wont kill anyone

tis no excuse

Joey the lips

Another anti religious thread!

I always think this is a daft pole, people are not better without religion what the op should have said is

"I could not be arsed living my life with a certain standard so feck it all i will do what i want"

But it all comes back to an anti religious pole. Build a bridge folks. I am religious I am proud of it but guess. I dont give a fcuk if you dont want to be! So why do you feel the constant need to ask people.

Is it your lack of soul?

I have no doubt have of these people with no life faith will apear on the PI in a few years " My life is empty and I have nothing to show"

You make life what it is! If you have no faith just bog off and leave it at that!

conchubhar1

i think abobe could be left with

its your choice

philologos

Let's talk about this OP

Shorthand view: I believe the world would be better without the wrong kind of religion, but I can't help but think that religion in general has been more positive than it ever has been negative.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Imo the world would have been 100 times better off if religions never existed.

I disagree with you. If people kept to the teachings of Jesus Christ this would would be much better that it ever could be without any form of religion.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Hundreds of millions of people have died down the centuries through various conflicts that had religious origins.

Hundreds of millions of people also died due to the actions of atheist leaders in the 20th century. Do I blame atheism?

No. I don't. Why don't I blame atheism? Due to the mere reason that most atheists wouldn't dream of persecuting religious people like Stalin did in Russia. His plan was to seize power by destroying religion. Other people tried to destroy religion in Europe in the 20th century. It failed. Big time.

As for "religious origins". Really? Was it based on Jesus' teachings or on the teachings of man?

gimme5minutes wrote: »

The current scandals in the Catholic Church are just the latest in a long line of reasons as why religion is a bad idea. It might look good on paper but in practise, over the last 2000 years, organised religion has proven to be an absolute unmitigated disaster causing immeasurable pain and suffering to the world's population.

I disagree with you again. You are focusing on a minority rather than the majority. Christians are doing wonderful things all around the world right now in the name of the Gospel. It's only the bad news that gets press however, that's the unfortunate thing about life.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

The disgraceful behaviour of the Church in Ireland far outweighs any good it has done or ever will do. They have destroyed tens of thousands of lives, directly and indirectly. Have they saved tens of thousands of lives in return?

Careful. Think for a minute.

• Did a majority of Catholic priests and nuns carry out this action?
• Is the Catholic Church the only Christian church?
• Did sexual abuse happen outside of the Catholic Church in Ireland on a much bigger scale during that time period?
• Did other churches carry out sexual abuse throughout this period on anywhere near the same scale?

I'd argue that Christianity has saved lives throughout the world, on a huge scale through the aid and assistance Christians are giving to people in some of the poorest parts of the world.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

No, they certainly haven't. Similarly with Islam, the amount of good that has come out of it is miniscule compared to the suffering it's caused. The simple and most obvious example of this is the disgusting treatment of 50% of the Islamic population who are treated worse than slaves - women.

Many would disagree with you on the role of women in Islam. Many in the West wear the hijab out of choice and see Islam as being liberating. I disagree with this view, but they can wear whatever they wish. It is only extremist groups such as the Taleban which seriously denegrate the lives of women.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

I think the last few thousand years are evidence enough that the greatest miracle any of could ever hope for is for all religions to be banished from the face of the earth forever.

Right, so you're going to carry out state atheism in Ireland? If so that might just be more horrifying than what you are describing concerning Catholicism.

I think this country is best off with freedom of religion.

diverdriver

If we didn't have religion, someone would invent it and convince other people that theirs was the only way of seeing the world. Religion is part of being human. It's attractive in many ways because of the idea of God or Gods out there with our best interests at heart or at least a bad temper. It also holds out the possibility that we do not simply die but go on to exist on a different plain. This is attractive to people because the stark reality that there is no God, no afterlife and that when you die it's over is not exactly exciting.

But as intelligent people we wish it were otherwise, so we invented Gods and religion. But it's all made up fiction like Lord of the Rings or any other story. We as humans need to feel that we are more important than we are. If we live on at all, it's simply in our DNA.

You also find that dependent or addictive people often embrace religion. It can't be a coincidence.

Ulysses Gaze

I voted yes, but not in the sense of eradicating religion per se, just the man-made institutions that 'spread' the word.

We have the core text (Bible) that details how to live a 'good life'.

Why do we need the Church to tell us how to do this?

gimme5minutes

Joey the lips wrote: »

I always think this is a daft pole, people are not better without religion what the op should have said is

"I could not be arsed living my life with a certain standard so feck it all i will do what i want"

What standard is it that I'm not arsed living my life with? The standard set by the Church here of raping and murdering children for decades? Or maybe you mean the standard set by their superiors who covered it up? Or maybe you mean the standard set by other religions such as Islam who will murder a woman if she is raped while the rapist gets goes unpunished.

seamus

I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of religions in existence today are built on a history of mercilessly slaughtering any conflicting doctrines.

bigeasyeah

potatoes

conchubhar1

we also have common sense

why neccessarily use the bible either?

Ulysses Gaze

why neccessarily use the bible either?

What does the Church give us the Bible doesn't?

Pyr0

I find that anything created by man is open to corruption. Religion is just one of these creations corrupted from the very start.

philologos

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

What does the Church give us the Bible doesn't?

Apart from a meeting of likeminded people together in a community it doesn't give us much more. I can't help but agree with the posts you are making, we need to seriously change the way church is done.

I do appreciate this meeting together of believers, and I don't think that that should leave Christian life. However movements such as house churches have also been very popular. I don't think we need to abandon the traditional church should people seek it, but people need to realise that Christianity is a broad idea. In 1st century Rome people didn't have church buildings. The church was nothing more than the Christians who wanted to share the Gospel with others. Maybe we have lost sight of that?

Earthhorse

The problem isn't really with religion but with organisations, which have a tendency to behave in ways individuals wouldn't agree with or condone. Whilst I don't doubt that religion has been used historically for the purposes of propaganda don't kid yourself into thinking that the institutions of science, business and politics, which are essentially already in charge in much of the world, would have or will fare any better in their treatment of the human race.

jaffa20

Joey the lips wrote: »

You make life what it is! If you have no faith just bog off and leave it at that!

Faith and organised religion are two completely different things. Someone can still have faith but not be religous. The OP is talking about wars, murder and essentially death which is born out of religion which cannot be argued against.

diverdriver

The bible is a book, part history, part fantasy. A look of it makes sense and living your life by many of it's better suggestions would be a good thing. The fact that it's basic premise that there's a benevolent supernatural being with omnipotent power out there who cares about us, is sheer fantasy is neither here nor there.

Going side by side with religion is a routine human ambition to make our lives better. That's why religion is so attractive to many people. It often holds out for a better future for people who live lives of abject misery. If not in this life but the next.

On the other hand religions allows some of man's baser instincts for violence and warfare to be excused. After all, the sixth commandment is not actually 'Thou shalt not kill' but 'Thou shalt not murder'. So killing is fine as long as it's lawful. And guess who makes the law?

Religion is a wonderful device for men to use to empower themselves at others expense. Without the need to feel guilty. Like I said earlier, we would have to invent religion if it had never existed.

gimme5minutes

Jakkass wrote: »

I disagree with you. If people kept to the teachings of Jesus Christ this would would be much better that it ever could be without any form of religion.

"IF" people kept to the teachings. Like I said, in theory it sounds good but in practise, after 2000 years, it has been shown that people don't stick to the teachings, or interpret them indifferent ways, and use their 'beliefs' to justify/excuse all sorts of disgraceful crimes.

Hundreds of millions of people also died due to the actions of atheist leaders in the 20th century. Do I blame atheism?

What are you talking about 'blame atheism'...thats just an attempt derail the argument. Wars that are fought for non-religious reasons are not fought 'in the name of atheism', the vast majority are fought due to disagreements over territory, it has nothing to do with atheism.

As for "religious origins". Really? Was it based on Jesus' teachings or on the teachings of man?

And again my point is that, it doesn't really matter what the Bible says in theory because in practise, which is what matters, there have been loads of wars fought for in the name of religion. And if there was no such thing as religion, those conflicts wouldn't have happened. Or course there would always be war over something, thats the nature of mankind, but getting rid of wars due to religion would be a great idea.

I disagree with you again. You are focusing on a minority rather than the majority. Christians are doing wonderful things all around the world right now in the name of the Gospel. It's only the bad news that gets press however, that's the unfortunate thing about life.

What are they doing exactly? What are they doing that outweighs the millions of people that have died and been oppressed due to religion? Lets start in Ireland, what exactly have the church done that outweighs raping and murdering thousands of children?

Did a majority of Catholic priests and nuns carry out this action?

• Is the Catholic Church the only Christian church?
• Did sexual abuse happen outside of the Catholic Church in Ireland on a much bigger scale during that time period?
• Did other churches carry out sexual abuse throughout this period on anywhere near the same scale?

If there was no such thing as religion, the whole thing wouldn't have happened in the first place. Yes there will always be abuse going on but not nearly as bad as what happened. A situation where celibate frustrated men who thought they were above the law (and it turns out they were right) were placed in control of defenseless children would not have occurred if religion never existed in the first place.

I'd argue that Christianity has saved lives throughout the world, on a huge scale through the aid and assistance Christians are giving to people in some of the poorest parts of the world.

Where do the Church get their money? Are they out working on building sites or are they slaving over a computer all day in an office? Eh no, they are getting handouts from the public. They have taken far more wealth from the people than they've ever given back. And my initial point stands that for whatever good they do, it doesn't come close to outweighing the bad.

Many would disagree with you on the role of women in Islam. Many in the West wear the hijab out of choice and see Islam as being liberating. I disagree with this view, but they can wear whatever they wish. It is only extremist groups such as the Taleban which seriously denegrate the lives of women.

They cannot wear whatever they wish. If a woman goes outside without wearng the hijab in Saudi Arabia she will won't make it across the road before the police pick her up and fling her in jail. There is huge injustice to women across the Islamic world, they are 100% second class citizens, if you don't see it as such then maybe you need to take a look at your own attitude to women. Are you sure want to get into an argument where you are making the case for a religion such as Islam?

I think this country is best off with freedom of religion.

I'm all for freedom of the indiviual. If they want to believe stories that originated from superstitious people who existed 1500 years before people even realised the earth wasn't flat, Ive no problem with it. My point is though if we could wind the clock back 2000-3000 years and do it all over again with no religion, those last 2000-3000 years would have been alot more pleasant for mankind.

Dave!

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I voted yes, but not in the sense of eradicating religion per se, just the man-made institutions that 'spread' the word.

We have the core text (Bible) that details how to live a 'good life'.

Why do we need the Church to tell us how to do this?

I'm assuming you put 'good life' in inverted commas because you meant it ironically...

Sam Vimes

Joey the lips wrote: »

Another anti religious thread!

I always think this is a daft pole, people are not better without religion what the op should have said is

"I could not be arsed living my life with a certain standard so feck it all i will do what i want"

Actually it's more like "I don't want to live my life by a standard set 2000 years ago by people pretending it came from their imaginary friend and I'll live my life by a standard that makes sense instead"

faceman

2 scenarios:

1) If someone commits a murder and claims he did it in the name of his god or religion, people reckon we should ban religion.

2) If someone commits a murder and claims that he did it because he heard voices in the head, we just reckon he's either (a) a crackpot or (b) lying.

I fail to see the difference between both scenarios. Blaming a higher power for committing crimes against other people is just an excuse. To suggest that eliminating religion will eliminate crimes against humanity is just plain bonkers.

biko

My problem is not with religion, per se. Religion has made the lives better for a lot of alcoholics and other desperate people that need a life line because they can't pull themselves out of their misery. A belief in a higher purpose can help them overcome problems they couldn't overcome on their own.
Religion in some form has been around since before recorded history.

My issue is with organised religion, when some guy in a black robe says "God is speaking to me and he wants you to give money/ go to war/ kill your son/ have no other deities besides him/ ..."

User45701

conchubhar1 wrote: »

people kill people

religion has not and will not kill people

lol thats just silly.

"guns dont kill people people do"

nonsence - drugs dont kill people people do so why arnt drugs all legal?

i remember in a catholic shcool in 3rd class trying to explain to people and the teacher (priest) that the world would be a happier place if it was ILLIGAL to teach religion to anyone under say 16 then when a person turns 16 they are approcached by various people, religious people and an athiest and then presented with info and the person makes up their own mind.

Religion only exists because people condition their children from birth. (or as a scam to make money)

the children in the class where boared and the priest had no responce...

faceman

Some people reckon violent movies and video games cause people to commit violent crimes, should we ban them too?

markopantelic

the thing is I votes yes but religion did play a positive role for a time in history. i think its funny how on after hours polls probably completely contradict the views of general population.