The cheek :P

tallaght01

I was doing a clinic this morning in the kids hospital. I was wearing jeans and a sweater.

During a lull, I went to grab a bottle of water in the canteen. While I was walking there, this old hag who works in the hospital walks up behind me and pokes me in the back.

"excuse me. I feel I just have to tell you that's not an acceptable way for a medical student to dress. Just LOOK at those jeans".

I basically told her to live with it.

I've always been a scruff in work. In fact I usually wear runners! But since I started public health I wear a suit. But, we're so under the hammer at the mo, we're doing a bit of a dress-down thing.

I was looking at her purple rinse, and I was thinking I'll tell her that a head like that is no way to walk around in a hospital, but I stopped at the last second.

Does our dress code affect our work? My patients have always treated me exactly the same when I'm wearing me runners, or when I'm in a suit.

mardybumbum

Hmm..
I had to do an essay on doctor-patient interactions a while ago as part of my medical ethics course and all the studies I came across suggest that patients prefer their docs in formal attire.
It will be vans and trackie bottoms all the way for myself.

Also, how do you introduce yourself to patients?
I was of the opinion that introducing yourself as Dr. (surname) was the best approach but not according to irishhealth.com.

Irish Health Article

JuliusCaesar

It's a pain, but patients are conservative:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7531/1524


http://www.im.org/Publications/APMPerspectives/Documents/September08Perspectives.pdf

tallaght01

Always first names for me. But, it's important to let people know you're a doctor,a s there's all kinds of punters treating the kids nowadays.

So, I'd say "Hi, I'm Tallaght01, one of the paediatric doctors". I don't use terms like "registrar", as people don't know what it means. If the SHO is asking me to review a patuent for them, I'd say "I'm tallaght01, one of the senior paediatric doctors".

IN terms of the studies about dress sense. In any of the studies I've seen int his field (one or 2 maybe), they've asked people hypothetically what they would prefer. What they really need to do is ask people after their actual consultation what their satisfaction levels were. Asking people "would you prefer a doctor in a 3 piece suit, or in a tracksuit?", will elicit a predictable response.

seamus

tallaght01 wrote: »

Asking people "would you prefer a doctor in a 3 piece suit, or in a tracksuit?", will elicit a predictable response.

They will think in their own heads, "What would I prefer", as opposed to relating to previous experiences. It's one measure, but as you quite rightly point out, it could be way off from reality.

I would also imagine that different patients will feel very differently about attire. Older or more stressed out patients may prefer someone in a three-piece who talks down to them over the rim of their glasses and confidently asserts that he knows he's right.
Younger patients may prefer a doctor wearing jeans and runners who talks much more matter-of-factly and without insulting the patient's intelligence.

Traumadoc

If you were being sued and you went to the solicitor and he was wearing jeans and a t-shirt- what would your impression be?

If you are a professional you should dress as one it is what people expect.

tallaght01

Traumadoc wrote: »

If you were being sued and you went to the solicitor and he was wearing jeans and a t-shirt- what would your impression be?

If you are a professional you should dress as one it is what people expect.

I'd expect him to wear a suit in court.

I don't think Michael O'Leary has suffered from his love of jeans. One of my consultants wear shorts in work. I think that's fantastic

I think it makes the kids feel more at ease. I think their parents only care that we do a good job. I've always had a very good relationship with my patients, because I work very hard for them. And I don't think, anecdotally, I was treated any differently when wearing a suit.

JuliusCaesar

tallaght01 wrote: »

In any of the studies I've seen int his field (one or 2 maybe), they've asked people hypothetically what they would prefer. What they really need to do is ask people after their actual consultation what their satisfaction levels were. Asking people "would you prefer a doctor in a 3 piece suit, or in a tracksuit?", will elicit a predictable response.

+1. TBH, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Really they should ask people about it after their consultation with a doctor. My feeling is that once they get on with you and realise that you are competent and knowledgable, they don't really care about the clothes - unless maybe you have nose-rings & tattoes.

Coudn't find any studies on my own professions (psychologist) required dress, though there's a fair amount on medical doctors. I get the feeling psychiatrists tend to be a little less formal.

DrIndy

I wear slacks - but scrubs in ED is the best.

You should dress down a little I think for kids so the environment is less alien.

I introduce myself as "Dr <firstname>" usually. Its formal and informal.

Old Biddy! And Australia where everyone dresses down anyway!

tallaght01

I went easy on her because she thought I was young enough to be a medical student :P

missannik

Firstly, nothing wrong with a purple rinse. :P

I don't think it should be an issue as to what doctor's wear so long as it is neat. Doctors in Australia generally are lax anyway. I have noticed the difference here in Ireland, where I'm wearing a nurses uniform that would have been the norm in the 60s.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

My feeling is that once they get on with you and realise that you are competent and knowledgable, they don't really care about the clothes - unless maybe you have nose-rings & tattoes.

My professionalism has never been questioned because of my piercings or tattoos, well back home anyway. I so think so long as they are relatively discrete and you're dressed neatly, they generally are not an issue regardless of your discipline.

Dr Galen

missannik wrote: »

Firstly, nothing wrong with a purple rinse. :P

I have noticed the difference here in Ireland, where I'm wearing a nurses uniform that would have been the norm in the 60s.

smexy


i think here in Ireland we have a very old fashioned stance on a lot of things to do with professional life. You mention tattoos and piercings in your post, well there is still a pretty large stigma in the wider population regarding such things, in fact I was once told by a very senior nurse manager person that seeing a tattoo on the forearm of a nurse would be a big issue for her, and she would question the professionalism of said nurse

Personally I think anyone dealing with the public, in pretty much most jobs, should make a decent stab at looking well and presentable. You can do that in slacks and a shirt or t-shirt, or jeans and trainers, as long as there not th same trainers you use for say....doing the garden.

Shaving is another thing that often comes up in the hospitals. I once got bawled out of it for not being clean shaven at work. I didn't think I looked scruffy at all, in fact I thought i was rocking the Doug Ross look tbh,

it's just the scruffy thing I'm not a fan of really

missannik

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

smexy

Cheers!

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i think here in Ireland we have a very old fashioned stance on a lot of things to do with professional life. You mention tattoos and piercings in your post, well there is still a pretty large stigma in the wider population regarding such things, in fact I was once told by a very senior nurse manager person that seeing a tattoo on the forearm of a nurse would be a big issue for her, and she would question the professionalism of said nurse

I've noticed. I've already heard comments about such. Back home no one gave a rats.

Traumadoc

I think that uniforms do play a part in peoples expectations. Rightly or wrongly people are judged by what they wear or what accessories they have.

So if you have an eyebrow pierced and a tattoo on your arm it is a visual clue to others what type of person you are.

Neck and facial tattoos for example might convey your toughness or wearing a bow tie- your oddness.:D

If you wear denims some peoples first impression might be that you are unprofessional- you may be the most competent professional doctor but you may have given a non-verbal communication that you are not.

There was an article in "Forum" about this subject in this months issue.

Dr Galen

traumadoc your in a position of repsonsibility aren't you?

what would you say to new Reg's/SHO's when they start regarding dress code?

Frank3142

Slacks and a bowling shirt.....ohhhh yeahhhhh

Traumadoc

I generally dont like denims at work. Never had to tell NCHDs what to wear. Some other specialities wear denims. My personal feeling is that it is not as professional as wearing a more conservative suit or even scrubs.

There was an interesting article about white coats recently and American physicains attitude to them.

http://www.mdconsult.com/das/news/body/138975676-2/mnfp/0/207620/1.html?nid=207620&date=week&general=true&mine=true

also from the UK

http://www.mdconsult.com/das/news/body/138975676-2/mnfp/0/207620/1.html?nid=207620&date=week&general=true&mine=true

Traumadoc

OhI dont like nurses wearing navy- ask any nurse why they prefer navy to the white uniforms and they will tell you it is because it hides the dirt better.:rolleyes:

Dr Galen

don't get me started on nurses uniforms, particularly the male ones!

drzhivago

In last few years there seems to have been a push away from wearing scrubs outside theatre environment in a lot of hospitals and yet from what patients say they find these acceptable.

I found them great working in casualty as it protected the clothes, nothing like going to work in a nice paid of pants and getting puked on or blood on it that just refuses to come out

would much prefer if the great and good in the HSE actually set out a uniform uniform policy, have worn polo t shirts a lot since early days as was dragged down a corridoor backwards by a psychotic patient who grabbed my tie

I have had issues (not a prude) with the length of some of the skirts female NCHDs wear

Dr Galen

yeah i agree DrZ, like what are they doing wearing them past the knee.......back in the day it was mini's all the way!

seriously though, i know what you mean. I'd have more of an issue with some of the tops/blouses though

Traumadoc

Very difficult as a male to tell a female doctor that what they are wearing is inappropriate.

Vorsprung

drzhivago wrote: »

In last few years there seems to have been a push away from wearing scrubs outside theatre environment in a lot of hospitals and yet from what patients say they find these acceptable.

Pick a random 100 people from the population and many will tell you that upon seeing a GP for a productive cough and sniffles and having paid 50 yoyo, they should get an antibiotic. Doesn't make them right!

Scrubs are what many European countries use. In Germany its almost universal practice for all medical stuff to go into work and change into white scrubs.

I personally enjoy wearing scrubs, and often wear a scrub top over slacks. Get a bit of stick for it though, but it's more hygenic and more importantly saves me ironing a shirt every morning.

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

Very difficult as a male to tell a female doctor that what they are wearing is inappropriate.

I agree and thats what the consultant felt too so delegated to reg (moi) to say something. I'll admit not very easy

I also think that belly top must be one of the most inappropriate name for a piece of clothing in that if you have one (belly) you should not have the other (belly top), add double for belly rings, dont know why but tends to upset a lot of patients

now I am showing my age, suffice to say my own daughter has neither

Traumadoc

you forgot to add "yet" to the end .

tallaght01

One of the SHOs when I did surgery had a top she used to wear that had FCUK emblazoned across it.

The oulones on the ward used to get totally freaked out by it, as they maybe couldn't see so well, and thought she literally just had the work fook written on her top. They must have thought she was a headcase.

Consultant was pretty grumpy and unpleasant anyway, so he had no problems telling her to stop wearing it.

ImDave

On a related topic, I'm doing some work shadowing in the hospital over the summer. What would be perceived as suitable dress that kind of role? Would a shirt and tie be over the top?

DrIndy

Depends on the work shadowing....... Could be best to turn up like that - you are professional looking and then take the tie off if it is too formal looking.

Covers all bases.

tallaght01

I always wore a shirt and tie as a student or when doing work experience. In Ireland I reckon they'd definitely expect that.

Svalbard

Female doctor's attire is a contentious issue alright. I'm not in favour of a uniform, but a dress code would be acceptable, preferable really.

My pet hate is lady docs with long hair that gets everywhere when they are examining a patient or doing a procedure - its just gross.

livvy

tallaght01 wrote: »

I was doing a clinic this morning in the kids hospital. I was wearing jeans and a sweater.

"excuse me. I feel I just have to tell you that's not an acceptable way for a medical student to dress. Just LOOK at those jeans".

I basically told her to live with it.

Does our dress code affect our work? My patients have always treated me exactly the same when I'm wearing me runners, or when I'm in a suit.

In a way she was paying you a compliment. She believes the job you do very significant and you should dress to reflect that. In a way i kinda agree with her. You are giving people life changing news - sometimes good sometimes bad. I would like to get that news from someone who looks like they should be giving it - not by someone who looks like they are heading to the cinema. A parent of mine has just fought a serious illness. The whole way through his treatment he listened to the medical professional like he was a God. To him he way - the words that came out of his mouth determined whether he would be around or not.

Shirt and tie a must for each visit by my Dad - fortunately the Doctor felt the same.

Tree

My good friend working in a big huge cork hospital lab, said that in the canteen ppl were approaching the lab staff (patients almost never see them and visitors wouldnt recognise them from other visitors) pointing out what was unacceptable in their garb.

Being clothed as you would in a lab coat, most of your colleagues would be hard pressed to identifiy your outfit, not to mind say others you wouldnt come into contact with.

I'm sure ther are unreasonable things to wear, but an excessively formal dress code is just not practical, in any part of the hosptial

Amnesiac_ie

UCC has a pretty draconian dress code that all medical students have to sign before engaging in clinical attachments. It restricts males to "shirt and tie" (disgusting, given that silk ties are rarely washed and are designed perfectly for transmission of infection), females are forbidden from showing too much tit, ass or mid-riff and Muslim students are forbidden from wearing head gear that obscures the face.

Personally I would be in favour of a nice cotton scrub like uniform one could change into each morning and leave each evening for laundering.

One of the SHOs when I did surgery had a top she used to wear that had FCUK emblazoned across it.

The night before my MRCPI clinic I frantically scratched a very discreet FCUK logo from the frames of my glasses in case an ancient retired consultant examining for the day took offence!

Chunky Monkey

Uniforms for doctors ftw!

I'm not kidding, I can't be arsed with smart dress (already have to do it for placement, it's a pain) but I don't think doctors should wear runners and scruffy jeans either (no offence Tallaght ).

They definitely need a uniform for female doctors anyway. Guys are okay, all they need is a shirt and smart trousers (no ties ew!) but I've seen women doctors wearing some god awful things, low cut tops, long hair swinging loose etc.

And heels should be banned from hospital- high ones and clickies.

That's just my opinion though, feel free to disagree

Dr Galen

scrubs for everyone imo

blue for the medics
green for the surgeons
light blue for the nurses

then everyone knows who everyone is, and at the end of the day you take them off and chuck them in the laundry bin.

challengemaster

tallaght01 wrote: »

Does our dress code affect our work?

I would hope it doesn't! Seriously, I don't think I'd care if you were wearing Hilfiger and versace clothes or a suit, or a wetsuit/lycra (ok..i might be suspicious of that, but..) as long as you're a good doctor and do your job well... who gives a rats how you dress?

challengemaster

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

scrubs for everyone imo

blue for the medics
green for the surgeons
light blue for the nurses

then everyone knows who everyone is, and at the end of the day you take them off and chuck them in the laundry bin.

Someone's definatly been watching far too much "Scrubs" !

Chunky Monkey

The junior doctors at my local trust have a uniform. So many people here (docs, nurses, HCA's, cleaners, catering) wear their uniform outside of work, I don't understand why people do that!

I think people do care and I don't think it's necessarily just the older generation. I think how you dress can reflect your attitude towards your work and patients will pick up on this, whether subconsciously or not, and I wouldn't be surprised if it often did play a part in how much a patient trusts their doctor.

Would be nice to wear runners etc to work, would make things seem a bit more relaxed, but I guess a hospital isn't like a Google office

tallaght01

I think a lot of it comes down to what you're used to, Chunky.

Like I said before, I've a consultant here who wears shorts. The Ozzies are much more chilled about that kid of thing, by and large. missannik talked about piercings....I think a lot of old boots in Irish hospitals will have a problem with that.

In specialties where I've been most likely to have had difficult conversations with patients, most of the staff don't wear shirts and ties...I'm thinking about kiddy A+E and NICU here.

Not sure Ireland is ready for dressed down docs yet, though. But certainly here in Oz it's pretty common, and seems to make no difference to perception.

Chunky Monkey

An Aussie nurse I used to work with (male) had an earring, was given out for it (even though it was just a stud) and he basically told them to f-off. I liked working with him

Dr Galen

challengemaster wrote: »

Someone's definatly been watching far too much "Scrubs" !

it's actually a model that is used extensively in other countries, places like the Netherlands and Germany for example.

If i was copying scrubs then the nurse would be in pink or purple and I pity the fool who tries to get me into pink scrubs!!!! :pac:

i did once wear a rather cool spiderman scrub top though.

RobFowl

I wear Short sleeved shirts and no tie. Justify it on infection control gounds (TBH was never so glad to ditch such a ridiculous item :rolleyes:)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn5029

http://www.cht.nhs.uk/services/clinical-services-a-z/diagnostic-therapeutics/infection-prevention-and-control/
(not too sure if the bald patch is mandatory)

tallaght01

RobFowl wrote: »

I wear Short sleeved shirts and no tie. Justify it on infection control gounds (TBH was never so glad to ditch such a ridiculous item :rolleyes:)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn5029

http://www.cht.nhs.uk/services/clinical-services-a-z/diagnostic-therapeutics/infection-prevention-and-control/
(not too sure if the bald patch is mandatory)

Man, I hate infection control teams.

Total money black holes, with minimal effect on actual infection rates. I wish they'd spend the money on extra beds....the only intervention actually shown to affect MRSA rates in hospitals.

charlieroot

RobFowl wrote: »

I wear Short sleeved shirts and no tie. Justify it on infection control gounds (TBH was never so glad to ditch such a ridiculous item :rolleyes:)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn5029

http://www.cht.nhs.uk/services/clinical-services-a-z/diagnostic-therapeutics/infection-prevention-and-control/
(not too sure if the bald patch is mandatory)

I like ties Always wear a tie clip/pin! By the way the above don't actually show any evidence for spread of infection by ties. In particular they don't mention if the organism is alive or dead? The size of the innoculum? etc....

RobFowl

tallaght01 wrote: »

Man, I hate infection control teams.

Total money black holes, with minimal effect on actual infection rates. I wish they'd spend the money on extra beds....the only intervention actually shown to affect MRSA rates in hospitals.

Thought hand washing was shown to be effective as well, I just use the above to justify what I wear :rolleyes:

sam34

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Shaving is another thing that often comes up in the hospitals. I once got bawled out of it for not being clean shaven at work. I didn't think I looked scruffy at all, in fact I thought i was rocking the Doug Ross look tbh,

how you doin?

sam34

i personally think doctors should not look scruffy or dressed down at work.
no jeans, no hoodies, no runners.
shirt and tie for the lads, no boobs or belly on show for the girls, and skirts a reasonable length.

i think people expect us to look professional and it's what they deserve.
(i acknowledge that what we're wearing doesnt make us any better/worse at the job, but still, it's part of the whole package)

it always strikes me how much some patients get dressed up to come see us, especially older people - you'd know they were in the "sunday best", and i think they deserve us to look teh part too.

sam34

Traumadoc wrote: »

Very difficult as a male to tell a female doctor that what they are wearing is inappropriate.

drzhivago wrote: »

I agree and thats what the consultant felt too so delegated to reg (moi) to say something. I'll admit not very easy

oh, ive been here!
my (male) consultant gave me (female SpR) teh job of telling our female SHO that what she was wearing was inappropriate. to be fair, her dress code was ridiculously inappropriate, exceptionally short skirts and see thru tops. not an easy conversation to have, though.

Traumadoc

Welcome to the art of delegation. ( Part of training to be a consultant):D

sam34

Traumadoc wrote: »

Welcome to the art of delegation. ( Part of training to be a consultant):D

yeah, thats exactly what my boss said at the time!:rolleyes:

sillymoo

An email I got regarding my clinical exam on Wednesday.

ICI TOSCE
by X - Monday, 25 May 2009, 04:49 PM


Dear All

Students should wear appropriate professional attire, a CLEAN white coat and bring your Stethoscope with you...!

Best Wishes

After reading this thread and after careful consideration I have decided to forgo my original choice of atire - bright pink boobtube teamed with denim micro and topped off with a fedora. I was hoping to blind my consultant and thought the "bit o' leg" would bump up my grade.

I will wear conservative neatly pressed suit trousers and a poloneck instead