Why do most teenagers consider themselves liberal/ leftists?

Disease Ridden

I'm a teenager myself but I firmly believe that a fiscally conservative government policy should always be in place. I believe that the individual should not be molly-coddled by a nanny-state and that enterprise and hard work should be encouraged and rewarded by low tax rates on high earnings.

Most people my age seem to be of the opinion that the rich should be taxed into the ground and that the wealth should be distributed amongst those who havn't earned it. Why is this?

Are people here for or against free trade between all nations? Or does that the thought of us importing cheap goods from other countries make you sick!

It seems to me, for example in relation to the whole third level fee's issue, that most students think the government should just fork out money to make everybody happy. Do teenagers know that governments dont have an endless supply of money? Why do they think that they should be entitled to the scarce resources that remain? They are perhaps the least grateful group in society, not to mention massively selfish and uncompromising.

I'll be honest, it angers me that students think they know better than the authorities and it makes my blood boil that they are so naive when it comes to the fiscal realities of things.

By the way, I also hold no religious beliefs. As such I have a rational viewpoint on issues like abortion (pro-choice) and homosexuality (do what ye like!). So I'm probably centre left on social issues.

I've read before that many people who hold left wing beliefs when they are teenagers end up holding more right wing beliefs as they grow up. Do any of the leftists in here think that their opinions will ever change and, if not, why not?

Crumble Froo

Why do most teenagers consider themselves liberal/ leftists?

short answer... optimism and idealism.

and before i go on, i would consider myself to be pretty liberal, with a bit of a lean towards socialist democracy, but i've still a lot of reading left to do on the subject.

Disease Ridden wrote: »

I believe that the individual should not be molly-coddled by a nanny-state

i agree that the individual should not be molly-coddled by a nanny state. i don't believe that limiting the individual's choices or rights is right to do. if a person is gay, why can they not get married? if the foetus is unwanted, why can they not abort? we're well aware that people should only drink responsibly and that smoking is dangerous... but the government still feel the need to attach a reminder to every drink, ad, and packet of smokes sold in the country.

and that enterprise and hard work should be encouraged and rewarded by low tax rates on high earnings.

are you implying that people on low wages don't work hard?

Most people my age seem to be of the opinion that the rich should be taxed into the ground and that the wealth should be distributed amongst those who havn't earned it. Why is this?

it depends why they havent earned it. there are big gaps and loops to the system as it is. i have zero problem with the government providing money for people who cannot find employment, cannot work because of illness or caring responsibilties, providing a pension to the elderly. in the same way that i believe that a person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter is not a nice person, i believe that a country should be judged not by how it treats its rich, but by how it treats its poor.

yes, there's plenty of people who wont work and live on benefit, it's a pity that they use the system set up for people who can't work, but at the same time, there's plenty of people with plenty of money who've done nothing but backstab and screw people over and look down on everyone else to get it, i do not think that they deserve the money either. i know plenty of people who are on the dole, or sickness benefit, who do lots of volunteer work and are good people, for all that most of rest of society looks down on them.

Are people here for or against free trade between all nations? Or does that the thought of us importing cheap goods from other countries make you sick!

i believe we should do our best to support our own.

unfortunately, our own are often much more expensive than imported goods and ill buy the imported goods instead. essentially, i believe in choice.

sadly, i can't comment much more on that, as i don't know enough about economics and how free trade etc would affect world and local economies in general.

It seems to me, for example in relation to the whole third level fee's issue, that most students think the government should just fork out money to make everybody happy. Do teenagers know that governments dont have an endless supply of money? Why do they think that they should be entitled to the scarce resources that remain? They are perhaps the least grateful group in society, not to mention massively selfish and uncompromising.

ouch. gross generalisation. third level fees... well, when they brought in the subsidies, that was a huge step forwards towards progress. getting rid of that...? huge step backwards. ireland is a first world country, dependent on tertiary skills. tertiary skills tend to be learnt in third level schools. the only subject i learnt in secondary that was in any way useful to me in real life at all was english. and even then, by 2nd year, my english was definitely sufficient for any essays or office work ive had to do since.

if the government believe that primary and secondary education should be free, but that one should pay to get an education after that (and pay through the feckin teeth, mind), then they should provide some genuinely useful subjects on a widescale in school. politics, economics, computer science, social studies/sciences/policy, journalism, design, sound engineering, early childhood studies, computer skills... give people a chance to learn about what they'll need to do in life outside of an educational institution.

meh, im crap at expressing myself, but tell ya what... Randylonghorn's already made an excellent post about that in the C&H forum.

I'll be honest, it angers me that students think they know better than the authorities and it makes my blood boil that they are so naive when it comes to the fiscal realities of things.

which comes back to my short answer of 'optimism, idealism'. and im pretty sure that there's other places that the money could have come from. maybe they should be trying to stimulate the economy a bit instead of just cutting back on what many would consider as the country's assets. the more i hear on the news about the recession in ireland, the more the things i loved about my home country seem to be ruined. i loved the fact that we could have a third level education and finish it educated and ready to go, most of us having worked throughout college, whereas in nz, you come out iwth a few thousand dollar debt over your head. look at the state of the country ffs! new zealand hit recession long before ireland and it's not in half the state. people went nuts with spending back home and a hundred other reasons and got themselves screwed over by the recession. these are the same people we are supposed to trust to get us back on our feet! it's all short term solutions.

By the way, I also hold no religious beliefs. As such I have a rational viewpoint on issues like abortion (pro-choice) and homosexuality (do what ye like!). So I'm probably centre left on social issues.

ok, so i wont give up on you entirely just yet :P

I've read before that many people who hold left wing beliefs when they are teenagers end up holding more right wing beliefs as they grow up. Do any of the leftists in here think that their opinions will ever change and, if not, why not?

i don't think so. i know some people who would have thought similarly to me at my age, who 20 years later are much the same (if a little jaded), and others who went from one extreme to another eg, protesting animal rights, nuclear power and overseas 'spy bases', both peacefully and ... emmm.. not so peacefully, before going through a major life thing, and joining a white power gang and going totally right wing skinhead. he's mellowed out now to liberalish, with an obsessive fetish for nazism. or something. overall, lovely bloke.

i think ill stay pretty much the same. i hope to go back to college in the coming years, and study something on the lines of social care and continue working with the bottom/outsiders of society. ive met a lot of people with money, and right wing views and a holier than thou attitude, but i'd infinitely rather spend time with the former (or not) junkies with prison histories, tbh. i know who i'd rather my tax dollar went to.

Disease Ridden

Thanks Crumble Froo. Just reading back on my OP I seemed fairly angry about the students! I am one, and not a rich one at that; I'd rather the fees didnt come back of course (since I would be crippled with debt paying them off) but its can be hard to ignore the reality that governments have limited resources.

You asked me do I not think low-wage earners work hard? I believe they definatly do work hard but I think that, overall, there should be a incentive to better oneself and that taxing the highest earners at 60% tax rates and paying the unemployed almost the same as those on minimum wage, is the wrong way to go about things. People will either become less productive at their work or else simply jump from minimum wage to the dole.

I think its good that people can remain steadfast in their political beliefs throughout life; I like to think that what I believe at the minute is a pretty sensible bunch of beliefs! Maybe it isnt though! :pac:

Crumble Froo

Disease Ridden wrote: »

Thanks Crumble Froo. Just reading back on my OP I seemed fairly angry about the students!

yep, you did

I am one, and not a rich one at that; I'd rather the fees didnt come back of course (since I would be crippled with debt paying them off) but its can be hard to ignore the reality that governments have limited resources.

the reality also, is that we are the second worst hit country in the world in this global recession. it's difficult not to believe that hte government weren't responsible through policies or lack of policies in some way for this hitting ireland so hard. i just don't see why we should place our trust in people who don't deserve it.

limited resources, yes, i agree, but i also think that having third level education is something that will work to the country's benefit in the long term. im not sure if it's the case in ireland (man, i feel like ive been away from there since forever ago ) but in nz, the same government who got rid of the third level subsidies were the same ones who all had free third level education.

You asked me do I not think low-wage earners work hard? I believe they definatly do work hard but I think that, overall, there should be a incentive to better oneself and that taxing the highest earners at 60% tax rates and paying the unemployed almost the same as those on minimum wage, is the wrong way to go about things. People will either become less productive at their work or else simply jump from minimum wage to the dole.

as far as PAYE goes, think of it not as the rich being taxed more for working, but as the poor not being taxed as much, because they can't afford it. i work on low income. i love my job, it's quite a worthwhile one, and it's motivated me to definitely definitely go back to college... but im earning equivalent of €6,000 a year. if i was being taxed 60%, i'd be earning just 2,739.05 EUR a year. duno about you, but i quite literally could not live on that. not with heating and food anyway...

and again, im not sure waht the levels are in irelnad any more are... but in nz, i know my partner is on sickness benefit, and with me earning at 20hrs a week *just* over min wage... he's actually earning more than me. if i was able to work 40 (i have two-three jobs depending on the week, and hte second one can be quite inconsistent), i'd be earning a happier amount, at min wage, but still, quite a lot more than those on benefit... it's only about €200 a week for dole in irelnad, right? with min wage about €8? working 40hrs a week definitely brings you out on top. granted, it'll depend on bills/expenses, but you just gotta slum it, find a cheap house and live on a sub-standard diet soemtimes. that's what we do.

some people can live on that and it's ok for them. others can't hack it. honestly dude, if you make it to 40years old, living on less than min wage, let me know how you're feeling? cos i can tell you, for most people, it's a **** feeling. especially watching siblings and peers have things like their own cars, houses, providing for their kids in a way you never could, all the latest gaming stuff, flat screens, projectors... it's tough knowing you can never have that. i know several people in their late 30s early 40s in that position and for all that they make light of it and joke and stuff for the most part... it does get to them.

personally, having lived in a house iwth mould growing in it, no central heating or insulation, seeing my breath in the air every morning in winter and living on a diet of pretty much just tea and toast, with my partner, who is living on benefit, and supporting a kid.. dude, it's not exactly a life most people will aspire to. most people would never settle for it.

I think its good that people can remain steadfast in their political beliefs throughout life; I like to think that what I believe at the minute is a pretty sensible bunch of beliefs! Maybe it isnt though! :pac:

i think it's safe to say that i will always believe in helping those less well off. encouraging them to become more educated/motivated? but of course. but definitely definitely definitely that they should be helped/supported. i know what it's like to live on the streets, and ****, some of the stories ive heard from some of our clients have kept me awake with nightmares. i can see how people might think that they are 'nothing/scum/worthless', but to me, they are still interesting, worthwhile people, and if i can help them, i wil.l

yes, im drunk and yes, this will probably be gone in the mroning.

JC 2K3

I'm for equal opportunity, but against communism.

I have little sympathy for anyone who ends up in a bad life situation as a result of being lazy or stupid. However, I'm very against any factors that bias people towards ending up in a good or bad situation.

I'm very liberal with relation to social issues. I HATE the nanny state

I've become disillusioned with politics because I find it difficult to have a preference for a certain politician over another based on my own views.

As I've gotten older, I've seen my fair share of wasters in college and spoken to people with quite frankly ridiculous views on politics. The views of many students are very stupid, because, well, a great many students are very stupid....

I'd be for 3rd level fees if a decent grant system was brought in. That, and much higher pass grades. Far, far too many wasters in college.

KnifeWRENCH

When it comes to economic issues I hate to admit it but I am quite clueless. I have vague ideas as to the differences between socialism and capitalism but that's about it. If you were to ask me where I stand economically on the left-right spectrum I honestly could not tell you. It's something I need to educate myself more on.

Socially, I would consider myself very liberal. I fully support legalising and official recognition of same sex marriages, making abortion and euthenasia legal and decriminalising prostitution. Recreational use of soft drugs (e.g. cannibas) is an issue I don't particularly care about but would have no objection to it being legal. On social issues I think countries like Belgium and the Netherlands have the right idea.

The fees issue is something I'm neutral on. If they were introduced I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have to pay them, and that's all that concerns me. Quite frankly I don't really care if other people have to pay them or not.

Stev_o

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

When it comes to economic issues I hate to admit it but I am quite clueless. I have vague ideas as to the differences between socialism and capitalism but that's about it. If you were to ask me where I stand economically on the left-right spectrum I honestly could not tell you. It's something I need to educate myself more on.

Socially, I would consider myself very liberal. I fully support legalising and official recognition of same sex marriages, making abortion and euthenasia legal and decriminalising prostitution. .

Wow wow wow care to elaborate on that point a little bit more?

Crumble Froo

i'd agree with him, but there's already a 'controversial viewpoints' thread.

Disease Ridden

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

When it comes to economic issues I hate to admit it but I am quite clueless. I have vague ideas as to the differences between socialism and capitalism but that's about it. If you were to ask me where I stand economically on the left-right spectrum I honestly could not tell you. It's something I need to educate myself more on.

Socially, I would consider myself very liberal. I fully support legalising and official recognition of same sex marriages, making abortion and euthenasia legal and decriminalising prostitution. Recreational use of soft drugs (e.g. cannibas) is an issue I don't particularly care about but would have no objection to it being legal. On social issues I think countries like Belgium and the Netherlands have the right idea.

The fees issue is something I'm neutral on. If they were introduced I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have to pay them, and that's all that concerns me. Quite frankly I don't really care if other people have to pay them or not.

This is a good quiz to give you a rough idea about how your political ideals compare to those of others:

http://politicalcompass.org/

You probably have opinions on economic matters that you dont realise yet!

I did the quiz a while back and got:
Economic Left/Right: 5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.18

KnifeWRENCH

Stev_o wrote: »

Wow wow wow care to elaborate on that point a little bit more?

If prostitution was decriminalised, it's hoped that there would be a regulated sex trade that would provide adequate rights, working conditions and most importantly protection for prostitutes. It would help fight against exploitation of women forced to work in the sex trade. Women who are forced into prostitution over here and abused would be able to go and get help rather than be criminalised themselves.
Also if people want to pay money to have sex that's really none of my business and it's not my place to say that it shouldn't be allowed.

Stev_o

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

If prostitution was decriminalised, it's hoped that there would be a regulated sex trade that would provide adequate rights, working conditions and most importantly protection for prostitutes. It would help fight against exploitation of women forced to work in the sex trade. Women who are forced into prostitution over here and abused would be able to go and get help rather than be criminalised themselves.
Also if people want to pay money to have sex that's really none of my business and it's not my place to say that it shouldn't be allowed.

Sorry but legalising prostitution in this modern day is one of the dumbest ideas going along. People go into prostitution for two reasons, they are either forced or need the money to fund drugs. I mean the list of problems just out way any point anyone could make for to even consider it legal.

Crumble Froo

wrong.^

mike65

To answer the question posed in the thread title - its usually cos parents are as conservative as they come esp with regard to social mores so you are obliged to rebel to some degree. Bit tricky if you have hippy parents of course.

There is an saying that goes 'If you are not a socialist at 20 you have no heart, if you are still a socialist at 50 you have no brain'. A bit glib but some truth in it!

-Els-

On the issue of Students and 3rd level fees, everybody should have the right to an education. The fact is if you are from a more disadvantaged background where there is no tradition of 3rd level education in your family, if fees are instated, no matter how intelligent or capable you are, you will not have the same chance at an education.

I completely understand that the government doesn't have an endless supply of money but what people dont seem to understand is that 3rd level educated people are essential for our society, we couldn't get by without teachers and nurses and solicitors etc... Plus if you go into hospital, no doubt you want to have the very best educated nurses. doctors ect... How many talented people would you lose who couldn't afford fees? If people want the best teachers teaching their children the state have to invest in the education system.

Disease Ridden

mike65 wrote: »

To answer the question posed in the thread title - its usually cos parents are as conservative as they come esp with regard to social mores so you are obliged to rebel to some degree. Bit tricky if you have hippy parents of course.

There is an saying that goes 'If you are not a socialist at 20 you have no heart, if you are still a socialist at 50 you have no brain'. A bit glib but some truth in it!

Aw well, there goes my heart!

CDfm

The reason is I think that teens think in abstract and things like money,houses and cars dont cost real money to them.

Things just are.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Disease Ridden wrote: »

This is a good quiz to give you a rough idea about how your political ideals compare to those of others:

http://politicalcompass.org/

You probably have opinions on economic matters that you dont realise yet!

I did the quiz a while back and got:
Economic Left/Right: 5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.18

Nice one.

I'm Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian:-2.77

I'm basically in the same position as Gandhi

Disease Ridden

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Nice one.

I'm Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian:-2.77

I'm basically in the same position as Gandhi

I got pretty much the same position as Margerer Thatcher, which is not suprising since I believe that she had the right ideas about how to run things.

Teutorix

Probably because I believe in Democratic social capitalism. thats why i'm a leftie

But most of the teens in this back water hole probably wouldnt even know what you were talking about never mind have an opinion. So i really dont have much experience with teenagers political views

I got dead on Gandhi in that test XD

O'Coonassa

Students?




Nice one for the test link btw

Economic Left/Right: -9.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.97

Disease Ridden

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Students?




Nice one for the test link btw

Economic Left/Right: -9.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.97

:eek:

A man/woman of strong opinion!

QueenOfLeon

I got
Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10

Just below gandi, close enough to nelson mandela aswel.

Im ashamed to say that i didnt understand a few of the qs, and now ive no idea what my result means Anyone care to explain?!

KnifeWRENCH

Stev_o wrote: »

Sorry but legalising prostitution in this modern day is one of the dumbest ideas going along. People go into prostitution for two reasons, they are either forced or need the money to fund drugs. I mean the list of problems just out way any point anyone could make for to even consider it legal.

:rolleyes: How exactly is a dumb idea? Regulating the sex trade would make it much safer for all involved. Ever hear of the red light district in Amsterdam? If other countries can legalise prostitution and not encounter any major problems I don't see why Ireland would be so different.
Of course, the biggest obstacle is that many people in this country would say that prostitution "destorys the moral fabric of our society" or some other conservative bull****.

Disease Ridden wrote: »

This is a good quiz to give you a rough idea about how your political ideals compare to those of others:

http://politicalcompass.org/

You probably have opinions on economic matters that you dont realise yet!

I did the quiz a while back and got:
Economic Left/Right: 5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.18

I'm pretty sure I did that quiz before but can't remember what I got so I did it again:

Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.23



So I seem to be moderately left-wing on both economic and social issues. I thought I'd my dot closer to libertarianism tbh.

Crumble Froo

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

:rolleyes: How exactly is a dumb idea? Regulating the sex trade would make it much safer for all involved. Ever hear of the red light district in Amsterdam? If other countries can legalise prostitution and not encounter any major problems I don't see why Ireland would be so different.
Of course, the biggest obstacle is that many people in this country would say that prostitution "destorys the moral fabric of our society" or some other conservative bull****.

totally agree. legal over here too, and i work with and am friends with women who have worked in the trade.

legalising it provides more protection for the workers, ensures proper payment, legality and can do a hell of a lot better at enforcing age restrictions than keeping it illegal ever could.

Stev_o

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

:rolleyes: How exactly is a dumb idea? Regulating the sex trade would make it much safer for all involved. Ever hear of the red light district in Amsterdam? If other countries can legalise prostitution and not encounter any major problems I don't see why Ireland would be so different.
Of course, the biggest obstacle is that many people in this country would say that prostitution "destorys the moral fabric of our society" or some other conservative bull****.

Sure while your are at it maybe it should be added to courses available at university just to make sure they'll be qualified for it. For a start who the hell would start a prostitution business ?Ever thought that the various criminal organizations that run the illegal ones here would just simply switch over knowing that they would be safe from prostitution. Add to the fact that the growing number of STD's in Ireland and consider that most prostitutes in this country are junkies and you'v got a recipe for disaster.

Also quoting Amsterdam is pretty weak considering that the Government there is closing over 320 brothels for suspected criminal activity.

I mean seriously man who in name of Christ do you think this is a good idea is completely beyond me.

JC 2K3

The government in the Netherlands is dominated by Christian parties. Their actions should not be considered proof of failing liberal policies.

Crumble Froo

Stev_o wrote: »

Sure while your are at it maybe it should be added to courses available at university just to make sure they'll be qualified for it. For a start who the hell would start a prostitution business ?Ever thought that the various criminal organizations that run the illegal ones here would just simply switch over knowing that they would be safe from prostitution. Add to the fact that the growing number of STD's in Ireland and consider that most prostitutes in this country are junkies and you'v got a recipe for disaster.

Also quoting Amsterdam is pretty weak considering that the Government there is closing over 320 brothels for suspected criminal activity.

I mean seriously man who in name of Christ do you think this is a good idea is completely beyond me.

people are interested in legally being involved in brothels. again, i live and work with people involved in this. even the main mobile phone network have a service to help ensure the safety of street workers. it's known as the oldest profession in the world. prostitution hs been around forever, and will not be going away any time soon. for whatever reason that women/men go into it, at the end of the day, they always will. surely it's better that if people are going into a job like that, that they have as much protection as possible?

RHRN

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

:rolleyes: How exactly is a dumb idea? Regulating the sex trade would make it much safer for all involved. Ever hear of the red light district in Amsterdam? If other countries can legalise prostitution and not encounter any major problems I don't see why Ireland would be so different.
Of course, the biggest obstacle is that many people in this country would say that prostitution "destorys the moral fabric of our society" or some other conservative bull****.



I'm pretty sure I did that quiz before but can't remember what I got so I did it again:

Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.23



So I seem to be moderately left-wing on both economic and social issues. I thought I'd my dot closer to libertarianism tbh.

I'm close to KnifeWrench.
Economic Left/Right: -1.70
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38

More Liberal Socially though.

Disease Ridden

I think the Y-axis on the graph has to do with your opinion on how involved the state should be in the lives of its citizens, not how you stand on social issues.

Teutorix

Disease Ridden wrote: »

I think the Y-axis on the graph has to do with your opinion on how involved the state should be in the lives of its citizens, not how you stand on social issues.

Bang on, libertarian is less involvement in social affairs by government, right wing is less involvement in the economy.

So fully libertarian "anarchist" and fully right would be like having no government at all. a sort of fallout/post-apocalypse scene as far as everything social and economic goes.

Piste

Wow I must be one of the only people here who got economically right-wing (barely though, it was like .62 or something- Purplefistmixer would have my head on a plate). I got Libertarian though, as I firmly believe that people should have the freeedom to do what they like as long as it doesn't negatively impact on other people.