Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results

Liber8or

Not sure which category this report falls into, but we shall try politics.

60 Years of history documented in over 2500 pages, which has cost the Irish Tax Payer 65 million euro, will be released today as a result of a documentary aired on RTE in 2000.

The report will, primarily, deal with abuse of children under the control of the Catholic Church and their institutions.

However, what will it mean to the general public? Clearly, the victims of this abuse will, perhaps, get some form of closure, but where should the state go from here?

Is it the government's responsibility to no longer allow Catholic Institutions to impose themselves upon State affairs such as education? Do we need more regulatory bodies to check up on the remaining institutions still in place? And, how should these victims receive assistance? State funds or Catholic Church funds?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0520/abuse.html

Liber8or

EDIT: Could a Moderator please change the title to "Sexual/Physical Abuse Inquiry Results" please? That would be more accurate.

LordSutch

The commission has received thousands of complaints of Emotional, Physical and Sexual trauma inflicted on children who were in care (over the course of 60 years). I would suggest the title of this thread should be; "Childcare abuse inquiry results" > this then covers all aspects.

Nodin

Liber8or wrote: »

Is it the government's responsibility to no longer allow Catholic Institutions to impose themselves upon State affairs such as education? Do we need more regulatory bodies to check up on the remaining institutions still in place? And, how should these victims receive assistance? State funds or Catholic Church funds?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0520/abuse.html

Well for starters, schools need to be made secular, regardless of this.

As regards assistance, the Churches liability has been capped. Hopefully there might be enough in this report to have that revisited.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Well for starters, schools need to be made secular, regardless of this.

As regards assistance, the Churches liability has been capped. Hopefully there might be enough in this report to have that revisited.

I agree totally.

how is the church's liability capped though? I thought it was illegal to try and cap liability for personal injury?

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I agree totally.

how is the church's liability capped though? I thought it was illegal to try and cap liability for personal injury?

Former Education Minister Michael Woods agreed to cap the church's liability at €128m in the expectation that the final bill would be around €500m and in recognition of the state's own negligence. But with more than 14,000 claims for compensation, the overall bill is expected to top €1.1bn, which means the State will pay 90pc of the cost.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/details-of-properties-to-cover-abuse-compensation-revealed-1653755.html

I'm unsure if that prevents individual actions in the future, however.

Elliemental

The church`s liability is capped? This can`t be right?

Nodin

Elliemental wrote: »

The church`s liability is capped? This can`t be right?

It's certainly not right in one sense. However the agreement of 2002 is apparently shut.

RELIGIOUS orders that ran children’s institutions where abuses took place will not be asked to contribute more to the state compensation fund despite the likelihood that the cost of victims’ claims will increase.

The 18 orders struck a deal with the State to give €128 million to the fund through a combination of cash, property and counselling services. The deal will not be reviewed.

Fine Gael’s education spokesman, Brian Hayes, criticised the Government’s handling of the deal, saying: “It was probably one of the most reckless, incompetent and financially illiterate deals that was ever struck.”

A spokesman for the Department of Education, which set up the RIRB, said there was no question of the deal being renegotiated and the Christian Brothers, one of the orders involved, also said the issue would not be revisited.

http://78.47.125.177/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1041:religious-orders-not-to-add-to-compensation-deal-&catid=50:education-news&Itemid=158
(My bold)

I'd be interested in seeing the workings and costings of that agreement examined by a number of independent auditors.

silverharp

When listening to the 1pm news All I can say is shame on organisations like the Christian Brothers fighting this all the way. They should have cooperated openly from the start.

snubbleste

This is currently the main headline on www.bbcnews.com website
Probe says Irish children 'abused'
An inquiry into child abuse at Catholic institutions in Ireland has found that sexual abuse was "endemic" in boys institutions.

Utterly damning and shameful

Can'tseeme

Words simply fail you regardig this. It is just horrendous what was going on and it makes you wonder, where does the catholic church in Ireland go from here?

Nodin

I've a few ideas on that, and indeed on what it can do when it gets there.

But, to the matter at hand.....

"The reformatory and industrial schools depended on rigid control by means of severe corporal punishment and the fear of such punishment," it said.
"The harshness of the regime was inculcated into the culture of the schools by successive generations of brothers, priests and nuns.
"It was systemic and not the result of individual breaches by persons who operated outside lawful and acceptable boundaries.
"Excesses of punishment generated the fear that the school authorities believed to be essential for the maintenance of order."

Its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions - in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8059826.stm

The summary - some 30 pages of it. My bold.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0520/childabuse-executivesummary.pdf

edit @ 15.51- I've given the summary a once over. Its grim, grim stuff.

Fratton Fred

Personally i think the government would be within it's rights to say "**** ya, you openly took on the role of Guardian of the faith, which then became a "Special Position" in the constitution. This constitutional right was abused.

Pay your own ****ing compensation.

It's not just Ireland and it's not just the RC Church either http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7982000/7982021.stm

r0nanf

breakingnews.ie wrote:

Abuse was rarely reported to the State authorities but on the rare occasion the Department of Education was informed, it colluded with the religious orders in the culture of silence.

The Department generally dismissed or ignored sexual abuse complaints and never brought them to the attention of the Garda.

Whatever about the Church - who I could not hold more contempt for - this report should shake this country to the core as it was a governmental department that colluded in the grooming/placement of children for sexual predators.

Btw, those of you who have blithely disregarded the "few bad apples" within the church are welcome to post on how you can continue to support a society that created, sheltered and supported a huge number of child rapists.

Valentia

Mr Justice Sean Ryan, said: “For all that the report tries to do, it does not try to balance what happened to children in institutions against what might have become of them if they had not been taken into care in the first place.”

That seems like a very very odd thing to say.

r0nanf

If they hadn't of been taken into custody?? Seeing as survivors mention scavenging food from bins and animal feed while in custody, I can't see how not been taken into custody would have been worse. Disgusted

Jesus1222

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Personally i think the government would be within it's rights to say "**** ya, you openly took on the role of Guardian of the faith, which then became a "Special Position" in the constitution. This constitutional right was abused.

Pay your own ****ing compensation.

Agreed. It was capped at 128 million after a "deal" struck by Mary Harney. I think the State was worried it would be stuck for the whole bill as it was ultimately responsible for allowing these sinister organisations to (literally in some cases) get away with murder.

The regularity of serious abuse in terms of how often it happened and how many children it happened to won't ever be fully known. I know of somebody who had to spend time in one of these concentration camps and they just don't want to know. They shut it out of their mind as best they can. Compensation is meaningless to them. They are not rich, by any means.

The level if evil involved is unbelievable. According to what I heard earlier certain institutions actively pursued children of destitute families so that their workhouses would be more economically viable with the captitation received from the State. The only solace for those who somehow retained their belief in God is that the perpetrators are in Hell.

Darragh29

I'm probably one of the people on boards who is unfortunately able to recall the child abuse identified in the report, first hand, having gone to a Christian Brother Primary School where one Christian Brother who taught our class was implicated in the death of a classmate who was 11 years old at the time.

If people/parents knew what used to go on back then, teachers would have been thrown from the 3rd floor windows of their classrooms.

markesmith

Another small step on the long road to Ireland becoming the Godless country that I for one hope it to someday be.

Jesus1222

I was at very tail end of the period where Christian Brothers had a strong presence in our school. My school was one of the last in my region to have such an influence and to be fair the few Christian Brothers who were there at the time they were brilliant educators and I remember them fondly. You have my sympathy though.

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm probably one of the people on boards who is unfortunately able to recall the child abuse identified in the report, first hand, having gone to a Christian Brother Primary School where one Christian Brother who taught our class was implicated in the death of a classmate who was 11 years old at the time.

If people/parents knew what used to go on back then, teachers would have been thrown from the 3rd floor windows of their classrooms.

GuanYin

Can someone explain to me why they are not prosecuting these individuals?

To put things in context, how can these actions be deemed any lesser than the cults and dangerous organizations out there that don't get recognition in Ireland (eg. Scientology).

Jesus1222

Perhaps many more than we would think have been prosecuted. Many others are dead. Though as I said, if you believe in God, they're in Hell. As would be the people I would place a lot of blame on - senior clerics, nuns and administrators.

They moved abusers around, maintaining the policy of denial and put more and more children at risk with their policies. They also inflicted savage reprisals on children who tried to make a stand. Most would be dead now.

I believe the law has been changed to account for situations where investigations into abuse are obstructed.

orestes

The state and church colluded to cover up the systematic physical abuse and acknowledged sexual abuse of children in their care, and now the tax-payers are footing the majority of the bill because of some arrangement the government made with the church, and no individuals will be prosecuted for any of these literally thousands of crimes?

That's what I'm getting from reading this thread, but I think I have clearly gone insane because my mind can't wrap itself around that and fit it into reality

Darragh29

The Christian Brother I've referred to above, started abusing children in the 1960's and he was still abusing children almost 30 years later in the late 1980's. He had been moved from school to school everytime a concern was raised about him.

It is nothing less than unbelievable how on earth vunerable children could ultimately ended up in Magdalene Laundries and Rosary Beed Factories, not being fed, being battered black and blue for no reason whatsoever, removed from their families, no proper clothes, all undertaken by people who claimed to be spiritual people, holy people who claimed to be guided by charity, rightousness and the word of God.

This to me in an Irish thing, the hypocracy of how things were done in this country permutates right down to the problems we have to deal with today. Nobody is accountable, nobody takes responsibility, we pay hundreds of millions of Euro for a report, but yet nobody is held to account.

Some of the people that I recall being behind this abuse should be pulled out of their f*cking graves and their bones thrown into the nearest sewerage treatment plant.

InFront

orestes wrote: »

The state and church colluded to cover up the systematic physical abuse and acknowledged sexual abuse of children in their care

To be fair, yes the Catholic Church did this but I don't agree you can just claim the state embarked on a policy of collusion to cover this up. This report wouldn't have been possible without the state.

It's the fault of the catholic church and nobody should be diluting their fault by bringing in other parties as co-criminal

Latchy

One man who's brother was serverly abused at Artane told how his brother wanted to torch the place after he got out .Listening to what he went through , I think I would have thought the same .Thing is ,in same circumstances , I would have ( torched the place ) .

Worry about burning some of the inmates to death might have prevented me .

Tom65

I just think it's astonishing that after 60 odd years of endemic abuse, the Catholic Church still run a majority of the schools in the state.

I just wonder what the next report will say (the one about the Dublin arch dioceses). Hopefully, it'll make some way toward state schools being secularised.

Jesus1222

Darragh29 wrote: »

It is nothing less than unbelievable how on earth vunerable children could ultimately ended up in Magdalene Laundries and Rosary Beed Factories, not being fed, being battered black and blue for no reason whatsoever, removed from their families, no proper clothes, all undertaken by people who claimed to be spiritual people, holy people who claimed to be guided by charity, rightousness and the word of God..

The most disgusting part of this is that the report says some institutes actively pursued destitute children to make their project more economically viable.

Darragh29

Tom65 wrote: »

I just think it's astonishing that after 60 odd years of endemic abuse, the Catholic Church still run a majority of the schools in the state.

I just wonder what the next report will say (the one about the Dublin arch dioceses). Hopefully, it'll make some way toward state schools being secularised.

What is going to come out in the next report will shock people to their very core if any of what I've learnt in the last few years is true.

Nodin

Valentia wrote: »

Mr Justice Sean Ryan, said: “For all that the report tries to do, it does not try to balance what happened to children in institutions against what might have become of them if they had not been taken into care in the first place.”

That seems like a very very odd thing to say.

When you could sent to an institution for being a child of a family judged 'destitute' or bunking off school, and could then be subjected to years of rape, beatings and floggings, hunger and cold, its actually a stupid and unsustainable thing to say. We're not talking about clipped ears and soggy salads here.

Orestes wrote:

The state and church colluded to cover up the systematic physical abuse and acknowledged sexual abuse of children in their care, and now the tax-payers are footing the majority of the bill because of some arrangement the government made with the church, and no individuals will be prosecuted for any of these literally thousands of crimes?

The state more defered than colluded. One gets the impression of a fear and deference to the various orders involved, rather than some equal relationship. The 'voice of God' card is a tough one to beat, in fairness.

And no prosectutions (though given the time span, that would be problematic anyway) or naming and shaming and yes, the church is capped in liability at 128 million as mentionded earlier.

97i9y3941

its an awful insult to the victims,yes they finally where believed that abuse did happen,but the people that did it where protected by the gov/church,now the same thing is happening again since the report blacked out or changed the abusers names.

Nodin

Fred83 wrote: »

its an awful insult to the victims,yes they finally where believed that abuse did happen,but the people that did it where protected by the gov/church,now the same thing is happening again since the report blacked out or changed the abusers names.

Thats due to a court case brought by the 'Christian' Brothers in 2004. Neither living or dead members could be named as a result.

97i9y3941

i often think,the church is to receive any respect,they should turn their abusers over to the police like any person would

The_Minister

GuanYin wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why they are not prosecuting these individuals?

One of the main aspects of the deal was that a lesser standard of proof was needed in order for people to claim money than would be legally acceptable if the issues had gone to court.
If these cases had been tried on a civil foot, let alone a criminal one, the vast majority of victims would have been unable to claim anything, because they can't prove anything.

paddyboy23

these evil men and women should face justice how many goverments new this was going on and did notting and a lot of there sons and daughters are in this dail and they will do the same notting i myself felt there leather belts on cold mornings we were lucky we could go home them poor boys and girls never stood a chance everything these brave men and women want should be giving what ever it takes by this lousy goverment to pay back for what was done by state and church to them this is another bad day for ireland

KINGVictor

I was very unfortunate to listen to a victim of these atrousities on RTE 6 O'Clock news (Christine Buckley) and it sent shivers down my spine.It was so unbelievable as I listened to the horrific and horrendous actions that took place (and most probably taking place till today in our society today,albeit in a more organised fashion).

As a Christain ( and proud to be one),I was mortified by some of the allegations that were made against these Catholic institutions.Initially I thought the allegations were exaggerations and I would beg for the forgiveness of the victims as no one can properly comprehend the effects these actions must have had on their lives and I think it is about time the Catholic church takes ownership and responsiblity for these despicable crimes,it is very apparent that even the leadership of the church was somewhat culpable as they could have investigated this allegations and should have the taken neccesary actions at the time rather than let it degenerate into the present messy situation.

One poster mentioned he hoped that this report would eventually lead to Godless Ireland..I completely disagree.Despite all these we cannot make blanket judgements and imply that the country as a whole has not benefitted from Christainity,a lot of homeless,poor,and vulnerable people who have been aided by the church in their hour of need would certainly disagree.

Yes some elements in the Catholic church have been disgraceful and utterly unbecoming in their behaviour but they should not used as a yardstick for judging the entire church...that would simply be very myopic.One of the fundamental tenets of the Christain religion is that everyone has a free will and as such cannot and should not be coerced to believe in God ( unlike a lot of other religions).Out of every 12 ,there is a Judas and it is absolutely impossible to police every person to examine if they are adhering to the rules and regulations of the Church.

In recent times,I have come to the conclusion that peodophilism has been very prevailent and endemic in Europe (although we dont like to hear or acknowledge that fact) and it has eaten very deep to the fabric of the society.I had a discussion with a friend of mine who was researching on this topic and he told me that it is common practise in some places in Ireland ( although it is never talked about or mentioned for fear of stigmatisation).

The honest truth is that if we could pursue with the same vigour in which the Catholic Institutions were scrutinized ( and I totally agree it was neccessary) and try to investigate everyone who has been abused physically ,emotionally and sexually by family members,the results would be shocking!!! and probably a lot more .

Christine Buckely made an interesting statement today when she said the girls in her school were been offered to outsiders for sexual purposes, so essentially I would not be surprised that a lot of the people that carried out some of this violations were people on the outside and that would explain why this was covered up for so long.

In summary,I think we should look at this as a systematic failure as a country and not just take swipes at Christains...as we have heard of Judges,gardai,teachers,lawyers,doctors,bricklayers,Christains,Atheists etc that have been guilty of the same.It is more of a social problem than a religious one.

Darragh29

KINGVictor wrote: »

One poster mentioned he hoped that this report would eventually lead to Godless Ireland..I completely disagree.Despite all these we cannot make blanket judgements and imply that the country as a whole has not benefitted from Christainity,a lot of homeless,poor,and vulnerable people who have been aided by the church in their hour of need would certainly disagree.

Yes some elements in the Catholic church have been disgraceful and utterly unbecoming in their behaviour but they should not used as a yardstick for judging the entire church...that would simply be very myopic.One of the fundamental tenets of the Christain religion is that everyone has a free will and as such cannot and should not be coerced to believe in God ( unlike a lot of other religions).Out of every 12 ,there is a Judas and it is absolutely impossible to police every person to examine if they are adhering to the rules and regulations of the Church.

The place for religion is in your personal life. If people like yourself could keep your religion where it ought to be, which is inside your hall door, then a lot of this crap wouldn't have happened in the first place. Unfortunately though the Catholic Church were screaming and roaring fire and brimstone sermons at anyone who disagreed with their philosophy when it came to any matter for many years.

Unfortunately it was those within priviliged positions within the church that have failed people the most, those like Cardinal Desmond O' Connell for a start, who up until a few years ago was trying every legal trick in the book to keep these files disclosed. Now this is a man who is highly versed in church law and in theology, yet somehow he figures that it is better to continue covering these things up than doing what any 7 year old making their first communion would be able to do, which is be guided by the truth... What we are seeing here is widespread rotten CORRUPTION and underhand manipulation by those at the very highest levels within the Catholic Church.

All those senior religious in the Sisters of Mercy, how come it never occured to them to do the CHRISTIAN thing that ANY 7 YEAR OLD MAKING THEIR COMMUNION COULD TELL YOU TO DO, and show compassion, understanding, and assistance to those who needed it???

It wouldn't be half as bad if the same people who have been responsible for this terrible scandal, were not going around spending every f*cking waking moment of their lives talking about "Christian values", the "Truth", "Compassion", "What would Jesus want to you do?", etc...

Seth Brundle

What I would like to know (and haven't yet been able to read the entire report) is:
* how many children died suddenly or disappeared overnight?
* how many of the abusive clergy members are still working?
* are any of the public administration involved in covering any of this up still working in the public sector?
* how much did the church spend on legal defences? (I'm not suggesting that the accused were entitled to a defence though)

Andrew H

Id also like to know why/if these organisations (Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy etc.) are still operating in Ireland. If so they should be forced to leave our Country and forfeit any lands, buildings, bank accounts that they hold!

97i9y3941

kbannon wrote: »

What I would like to know (and haven't yet been able to read the entire report) is:
* how many children died suddenly or disappeared overnight?
* how many of the abusive clergy members are still working?
* are any of the public administration involved in covering any of this up still working in the public sector?
* how much did the church spend on legal defences? (I'm not suggesting that the accused were entitled to a defence though)

i dont think we ever know that,since gov and church are 2 different organisation,both will only give what they want to hear.

Liber8or

Religion has no place in education in this country. Simple as that.

The government should move to have all lands or buildings taken off any Christian Brothers or Sisters of Mercy. This money should be used to set up a fund for these victims to receive councilling, for the rest of their life if it takes that. It is the minimum this government owes these victims.

Religion is a personal belief and act, it has no place in the public. Children, being the most vulnerable should not be influenced by this.

As far as I am concerned, Christianity is in this country as a guest and answers to the people. The government represents the people, this institution MUST answer for this travesty.

KINGVictor

Darragh29 wrote: »

The place for religion is in your personal life. If people like yourself could keep your religion where it ought to be, which is inside your hall door, then a lot of this crap wouldn't have happened in the first place. Unfortunately though the Catholic Church were screaming and roaring fire and brimstone sermons at anyone who disagreed with their philosophy when it came to any matter for many years.

Unfortunately it was those within priviliged positions within the church that have failed people the most, those like Cardinal Desmond O' Connell for a start, who up until a few years ago was trying every legal trick in the book to keep these files disclosed. Now this is a man who is highly versed in church law and in theology, yet somehow he figures that it is better to continue covering these things up than doing what any 7 year old making their first communion would be able to do, which is be guided by the truth... What we are seeing here is widespread rotten CORRUPTION and underhand manipulation by those at the very highest levels within the Catholic Church.

All those senior religious in the Sisters of Mercy, how come it never occured to them to do the CHRISTIAN thing that ANY 7 YEAR OLD MAKING THEIR COMMUNION COULD TELL YOU TO DO, and show compassion, understanding, and assistance to those who needed it???

It wouldn't be half as bad if the same people who have been responsible for this terrible scandal, were not going around spending every f*cking waking moment of their lives talking about "Christian values", the "Truth", "Compassion", "What would Jesus want to you do?", etc...

I understand you would not want me to impose my religion on yourself or anybody for that matter and I definitely do want to that either,but I think you quoted me out of context or you did not read my post in full.

I totally agree with you that possibly there would be some of those people who might have hypocritically said things and practised the opposite...In my belief they would be held accountable at the appropriate time ( I am a firm believer in whatever you sow ,so shall you would reap).

What I am trying let people acknowledge is that we have huge challenges as a society when it comes to our moral scope.I totally concur that the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for on this issue but I think this is more of a Social and cultural practise and therefore would be politically and religiously inevitable(as they are by-products of the afore-mentioned ).

You responded with so much Intelligence and likewise a lot of posters on this site,I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.I know it is a difficult topic but it is the truth.A boy that would be a priest tomorrow would have to be born into a family likewise a girl that would be a nun...their experiences would to a
large extent determine how they would behave irrespective of their religious orientation.

Liber8or

I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.

Hold on a second. The Catholic Church in Ireland were given the responsibility to educate children in this country and they abused that. They maliciously covered up and hid the facts to avoid this crime from coming out.

They regimentally and methodically avoided taking the blame and preventing the truth. And what happens now? Nothing. Those sick "****ers" and I have no problem using that word, as thats what they are, will never be accountable.

However, these "normal people" you refer to, ARE and WILL be accountable. We are always being updated via newspapers of people being locked away for abuse, be it sexual or physical. So, do not try and claim, what "normal people" do is worse, when infact, it really isn't since they will be punished, where as the Catholic Church will not.

As I said already, irradicate all presence of any remaining Christian Brothers or Sister of Mercy schools in this country. Use the money earned to set up a fund for councilling and support for these victims. It is the minimum the government should take to sending a message to the Catholic Church and assisting the victims.

Darragh29

KINGVictor wrote: »

I understand you would not want me to impose my religion on yourself or anybody for that matter and I definitely do want to that either,but I think you quoted me out of context or you did not read my post in full.

I totally agree with you that possibly there would be some of those people who might have hypocritically said things and practised the opposite...In my belief they would be held accountable at the appropriate time ( I am a firm believer in whatever you sow ,so shall you would reap).

What I am trying let people acknowledge is that we have huge challenges as a society when it comes to our moral scope.I totally concur that the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for on this issue but I think this is more of a Social and cultural practise and therefore would be politically and religiously inevitable(as they are by-products of the afore-mentioned ).

You responded with so much Intelligence and likewise a lot of posters on this site,I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.I know it is a difficult topic but it is the truth.A boy that would be a priest tomorrow would have to be born into a family likewise a girl that would be a nun...their experiences would to a
large extent determine how they would behave irrespective of their religious orientation.

I don't agree with a word of this. The people responsible for this abuse were not "normal people of the society" as you have described them. They were clearly part of a monsterous assembly of people who enjoyed seeing vunerable children suffering whatever hardship that could possibly be inflicted upon them. They were also looked upon as privileged members of society, and given respect over and above that which ordinary member sof society enjoyed.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that each person who could be identified as having been a part of this sickening catalog of abuse, operated entirely independently of every other person who had a hand act or part in this. The evidence points to the opposite, it looks to me like The Sisters of Mercy and the Christian Brothers were like ritual cults.

KINGVictor

Liber8or wrote: »

Hold on a second. The Catholic Church in Ireland were given the responsibility to educate children in this country and they abused that. They maliciously covered up and hid the facts to avoid this crime from coming out.

They regimentally and methodically avoided taking the blame and preventing the truth. And what happens now? Nothing. Those sick "****ers" and I have no problem using that word, as thats what they are, will never be accountable.

However, these "normal people" you refer to, ARE and WILL be accountable. We are always being updated via newspapers of people being locked away for abuse, be it sexual or physical. So, do not try and claim, what "normal people" do is worse, when infact, it really isn't since they will be punished, where as the Catholic Church will not.

As I said already, irradicate all presence of any remaining Christian Brothers or Sister of Mercy schools in this country. Use the money earned to set up a fund for councilling and support for these victims. It is the minimum the government should take to sending a message to the Catholic Church and assisting the victims.

Most of the abusive Schools were utilised as corrective facilities...more like Juvenile correctional institutions as we call them today,YES they were supposed to be reformatory and not act as citadels of abuse..We all agree on that..no doubt..but all reponces have failed to address the underlying fact that In Ireland Boys and Girls have over the years been consistently abused by their own family(especially sexually)...lets start the discussion from there.Bad news makes headlines without addressing the fundamental truth.Fathers and Mothers sexually abuse their children in Europe(Ireland Inclusive) .

My point is that lets start this as a big debate ,and it is far wider than the Catholic church, a lot of these abusers have never been to a church ,so what is thier excuse.

Hydroquinone

Andrew H wrote: »

Id also like to know why/if these organisations (Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy etc.) are still operating in Ireland. If so they should be forced to leave our Country and forfeit any lands, buildings, bank accounts that they hold!

So you want to ship all the abusers and colluders off to another country and let them deal with it. Nice.
What's in it for the people of the foreign country? Why do you think they'd want to have a ganzy load of Irish abusers and colluders in their country?

getz

one report--the christain brothers used to take me into a room and take it in turns[gang bang] me -then beat me and say it was my fault-the leader of the catholic church in england said ,we must find those who have abused children and bring them to task , the catholic church in ireland said f/all

Dr Galen

someone else has already pointed it out, but the problem with this whole debacle is that the burden of proof is too great. This is not me being an abuse denier. The fact is that in order to have a case taken, and won, with the defendant ending up in jail, you need to have proof. Proof is more than someone's word, there needs to be evidence and unfortunatley, anything even approaching evidence seems to have vanished over the years.

Like many other people, I'd like nothing more than to see justice (not revenge) for the abused, but it appears that the criminal courts pathway just isn't open. Thats one of the hardest things for me personally to get straight in my head.

As for the whole God in society debate, well, this report deals specifically with the issue of abuse and the religious orders. Discussion about abuse in wider society is irrelevant imho, the reports states that such abuse was endemic in the the religious orders over the course of the last 70 odd years. Thats completely damning stuff and how the church can hold it's head up, I don't know. It's also a sad day for all those in the religious orders who DIDN'T abuse anyone, and who were dedicated to making things better for many people in society.

dresden8

The attitude of the church that they can do what they want and are not answerable to anybody is nothing new.

The only difference is that Henry II knew how to sort out these pr1cks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Becket

Drummerboy2

In my opinion any property belonging to these orders should be confiscated and they should be deep proscribed organisations. They should be disbanded now.

getz

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

someone else has already pointed it out, but the problem with this whole debacle is that the burden of proof is too great. This is not me being an abuse denier. The fact is that in order to have a case taken, and won, with the defendant ending up in jail, you need to have proof. Proof is more than someone's word, there needs to be evidence and unfortunatley, anything even approaching evidence seems to have vanished over the years.

Like many other people, I'd like nothing more than to see justice (not revenge) for the abused, but it appears that the criminal courts pathway just isn't open. Thats one of the hardest things for me personally to get straight in my head.

As for the whole God in society debate, well, this report deals specifically with the issue of abuse and the religious orders. Discussion about abuse in wider society is irrelevant imho, the reports states that such abuse was endemic in the the religious orders over the course of the last 70 odd years. Thats completely damning stuff and how the church can hold it's head up, I don't know. It's also a sad day for all those in the religious orders who DIDN'T abuse anyone, and who were dedicated to making things better for many people in society.

i agree it may be hard to find proof, but in most cases the abuser has done this more than once-that is proof enough -most damming to me is the white washing of this report ,and the goverment help to cover up the churches crime ,of moving these people on to other countrys ,to be able to continue abusing-there has been a call from the catholic bishop of england,to go after those people ,no matter how far back in time ,let hope he church in ireland admits it