Ireland v Canada: Team Announced

remus808

Starting XV for Canada game announced (http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_17296.php)

15. Gavin Duffy (Galwegians/Connacht)
14. Barry Murphy (UL Bohemians/Munster)
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
12. Ian Whitten (Ballymena/Ulster)*
11. Ian Dowling (Shannon/Munster)*
10. Ian Keatley (Galwegians/Connacht)*
9. Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster)
1. Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) (capt)
3. Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)
4. Bob Casey (London Irish)
5. Mick O'Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster)
6. John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht)*
7. Niall Ronan (Shannon/Munster)*
8. Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Replcaements
16. Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
17. Mike Ross (Harlequins)*
18. Ryan Caldwell (Dungannon/Ulster)*
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Eoin Reddan (London Wasps)
21. Niall O'Connor (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
22. Denis Hurley (Cork Constitution/Munster)*

Where is Fionn Carr??? Not impressed with that back 3: would prefer Duffy in the centre with Cave possibly. And Mike Ross must be embarassed to be behind Buckley when you consider the kind of gametime both are getting! Disappointed to see one of the young 2nd rows not getting a chance ahead of MOD aswell.

Zzippy

karmabass wrote: »

Starting XV for Canada game announced (http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_17296.php)

15. Gavin Duffy (Galwegians/Connacht)
14. Barry Murphy (UL Bohemians/Munster)
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
12. Ian Whitten (Ballymena/Ulster)*
11. Ian Dowling (Shannon/Munster)*
10. Ian Keatley (Galwegians/Connacht)*
9. Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster)
1. Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) (capt)
3. Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)
4. Bob Casey (London Irish)
5. Mick O'Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster)
6. John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht)*
7. Niall Ronan (Shannon/Munster)*
8. Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Replcaements
16. Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
17. Mike Ross (Harlequins)*
18. Ryan Caldwell (Dungannon/Ulster)*
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Eoin Reddan (London Wasps)
21. Niall O'Connor (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
22. Denis Hurley (Cork Constitution/Munster)*

Where is Fionn Carr??? Not impressed with that back 3: would prefer Duffy in the centre with Cave possibly. And Mike Ross must be embarassed to be behind Buckley when you consider the kind of gametime both are getting! Disappointed to see one of the young 2nd rows not getting a chance ahead of MOD aswell.

Duffy is the only solid option at FB given the squad thats travelling. And moving him to centre would mean a start for Hurley - :eek:
Delighted for Keatley and especially Muldoon...

Mike Ross,who is in the premiership dream team is behind Buckley FFS.

I dont rate Downling but congrats to the lad he deserves a cap.

Alot of the selections are insane tbh,Fionn Carr??

Stev_o

Why is MOD starting, what the hell is the point of playing Casey and MOD together why not throw in Caldwell or Donnacha. Why is Hurley on the bench why is Stringer starting and not Reddan. Slow backline but meh they ll win easily as that pack will dominate all day low, can't wait to see what Keatley is like running a proper backline.

siltirocker

Zzippy wrote: »

Duffy is the only solid option at FB given the squad thats travelling. And moving him to centre would mean a start for Hurley - :eek:
Delighted for Keatley and especially Muldoon...

+1

John Muldoon is an amazing player.

curts82

I honestly dont know what yer problem with dowling is!!! A real unsong hero and a great bit of stuff!!! Strong in attack and Defence!

Tim Robbins

Call me old fashioned but I don't like slagging off players.
Suggest we try to say things like:

"Dowling, Hurley may be a bit short of pace, creativity for international rugby"...

instead of

"he's crap","oh god".

Dowling and Hurley are better than any of us and put a lot of effort in. Let's try and give all players some respect.

Orizio

Dowling is a solid provincial player, and will be fine at this level. None of that matters, of course, no doubt everyone likes to jump on yet another hate a player bandwagon.

curts82

Hurley is defo not good enough!!!

danthefan

I don't like that team at all. Really smacks of DK sorting out his old mates imo. What the hell is MOD starting going to do for Irish rugby? 2 players on the bench who could win a rake of caps but we have the ultimate journeyman there instead. Similarly, Ross is clearly a better prop than Buckley. Also Fionn Carr not being involved while Murphy and Dowling (neither of whom have a chance at any sort of prolonged international career) start makes no sense to me. The team will win the game but it does very little for development. The only youth he's selected (Cave, Whitten, Keatley) is enforced as there is literally nobody left.

Amazotheamazing

Dowling is an inspiration if you ask me. He's a lot less talented than guys like Gary Browne, and slower than Maxwell, but he's worked hard and worked hard and worked hard to the point where he's a first-teamer for Munster and is now getting a cap for his country. If more of the underage stars in Ireland worked as hard as him, a few more of them would survive beyond age grade rugby.

remus808

Orizio wrote: »

no doubt everyone likes to jump on yet another hate a player bandwagon.

Ah lads i'm all for giving players a fair crack of the whip but Dowling and Hurley are well reknowned targets for slagging, can't be helped!

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is an inspiration if you ask me. He's a lot less talented than guys like Gary Browne, and slower than Maxwell, but he's worked hard and worked hard and worked hard to the point where he's a first-teamer for Munster and is now getting a cap for his country. If more of the underage stars in Ireland worked as hard as him, a few more of them would survive beyond age grade rugby.

Meh, it's rugby. Most people get injured and give up.

Look at the dream team Rock had when O'Driscoll was there and how many of them were good enough to play for Leinster or pro rugby and yet got injured and had to retire as kids. Scally etc.

Dowling's a hard-working guy, but he's basically a product of sports-science - he's fit, he fits well with the rigid defensive structures he's required to take part in and well... That's it. He can't score tries, he can't outpace people, he can't take a man on the outside.

He's basically the most depressing thing about modern rugby - the supreme defender. He can play rugby, if he could run, his natural attacking instincts would mean he might even have been looked at by Leinster. He's hard to stop, etc, but his natural limitations are simple - he's not very fast. That's something that no amount of professionalism and hardwork can give.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Meh, it's rugby. Most people get injured and give up.

Look at the dream team Rock had when O'Driscoll was there and how many of them were good enough to play for Leinster or pro rugby and yet got injured and had to retire as kids. Scally etc.

Dowling's a hard-working guy, but he's basically a product of sports-science - he's fit, he fits well with the rigid defensive structures he's required to take part in and well... That's it. He can't score tries, he can't outpace people, he can't take a man on the outside.

He's basically the most depressing thing about modern rugby - the supreme defender. He can play rugby, if he could run, his natural attacking instincts would mean he might even have been looked at by Leinster. He's hard to stop, etc, but his natural limitations are simple - he's not very fast. That's something that no amount of professionalism and hardwork can give.

Dowling is a lot more than just a defender, the amount of work and hard yards he gets through are incredible. How often does it take a few tacklers to bring him down, and yet he always gets the ball back. I'd pick a guy like Dowling over a guy like Marcel Garvey or Tom Varndell every time. I'm not surprised some people don't rate him, some people think all rugby should be like 7's, but I prefer to see a guy like Dowling killing himself for the team every game he plays.

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is an inspiration if you ask me. He's a lot less talented than guys like Gary Browne, and slower than Maxwell, but he's worked hard and worked hard and worked hard to the point where he's a first-teamer for Munster and is now getting a cap for his country. If more of the underage stars in Ireland worked as hard as him, a few more of them would survive beyond age grade rugby.

Back in 2005/06 or whenever he broke through he fit Munsters needs in the backs perfectly, i.e. defend, defend, defend. That's still his game and it's just not good enough for international rugby. He doesn't have a cutting edge, he doesn't score tries, he doesn't make things happen.

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

Back in 2005/06 or whenever he broke through he fit Munsters needs in the backs perfectly, i.e. defend, defend, defend. That's still his game and it's just not good enough for international rugby. He doesn't have a cutting edge, he doesn't score tries, he doesn't make things happen.

D'Arcy, for example, scores no tries for Ireland, and yet most people would say he's the best 12 we have. Trimble has scored tries against most of the top teams. It's not all about stats. I know some people get hung up on "oh a wing must score all the tries" but imo, rugbys still a team game, it's what a player brings to his team that counts.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is a lot more than just a defender, the amount of work and hard yards he gets through are incredible. How often does it take a few tacklers to bring him down, and yet he always gets the ball back. I'd pick a guy like Dowling over a guy like Marcel Garvey or Tom Varndell every time. I'm not surprised some people don't rate him, some people think all rugby should be like 7's, but I prefer to see a guy like Dowling killing himself for the team every game he plays.

He's a decent attacker, I just said that. But he's not fast enough to make it matter. It's that simple.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

D'Arcy, for example, scores no tries for Ireland, and yet most people would say he's the best 12 we have. Trimble has scored tries against most of the top teams. It's not all about stats. I know some people get hung up on "oh a wing must score all the tries" but imo, rugbys still a team game, it's what a player brings to his team that counts.

Different positions. Fionn Carr at Connacht, the worst team in the Magners League by a mile has more tries this season than Dowling has in 2 or 3 seasons. This being Dowling who plays for the Magners League Champions and has won Heineken Cups.

irishbucsfan

If the issue is, does Dowling warrant an Irish cap?

Then the answer is yes. He may not be the most effective finish in Irish rugby, but he's a serious worker and he's a seriously effective ball carrier. Even on the wing he's a great addition to any team.

If the issue is, does Dowling warrant an Irish cap ahead of Fionn Carr?

Not even close. Carr was robbed. How Hurley got on the bench ahead of Carr... (Im not even going to finish tha sentence)
Saying that, Dowling probably worked his arse off in training for the place, fair play to him.

Podge_irl

That's a Godawful back three, but considering the squad pretty much the best that could have been hoped for I guess. To be fair, I have no real problem with Dowling getting a cap. He's not good enough to ever be anything but a "break glass in case of emergency" player for Ireland, but as mentioned he's a good role model. He's made a good stab out of less natural talent then some by dint of a lot of hard work. Deserves a cap a hell of a lot more than Hurley anyway.

Buckley ahead of Ross is unbelievably ridiculous. Its a completely unfathomable decision. also unhappy to see Ryan persisted with a backrow.

irishbucsfan

Whitten any good?

duckysauce

danthefan wrote: »

I don't like that team at all. Really smacks of DK sorting out his old mates imo. What the hell is MOD starting going to do for Irish rugby? 2 players on the bench who could win a rake of caps but we have the ultimate journeyman there instead. Similarly, Ross is clearly a better prop than Buckley. Also Fionn Carr not being involved while Murphy and Dowling (neither of whom have a chance at any sort of prolonged international career) start makes no sense to me. The team will win the game but it does very little for development. The only youth he's selected (Cave, Whitten, Keatley) is enforced as there is literally nobody left.

Yeah that type of a coach will never win a garnd slam for us

chupacabra

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Whitten any good?

From what i've seen in the few senior caps and academy games he is a bit of a prospect alright. A 12 in the mould of Morrison or Roberts he is strongly built and a solid midfield basher, the opposite of Wallace really and his distribution could do with a bit of speed. Also i have not yet seen any bit of gel between him and Cave so it remains to be seen what kind of center partnership they will be.

Also Buckley over Ross is ridiculous, im all for giving Buckley a chance, but his illness has really set him off any sort of match pace, nevermind international pace and he simply cannot scrummage good enough. Delighted for Keatley too!

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Back in 2005/06 or whenever he broke through he fit Munsters needs in the backs perfectly, i.e. defend, defend, defend. That's still his game and it's just not good enough for international rugby. He doesn't have a cutting edge, he doesn't score tries, he doesn't make things happen.

He still makes the first XV everytime for the most competitive team in Europe and has done so for the last 2 years.

And I don't think either McGahan (or Kidney) do sentiment.

anonymous_joe

duckysauce wrote: »

Yeah that type of a coach will never win a garnd slam for us

So what?

Declan Kidney's undoubtedly one of the best ever Irish coaches, but he is not and will never be above criticism.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning his decisions, he knows far more about rugby than me and most of us here, but he's only human. People make mistakes. Eddie O'Sullivan's one of the most knowledgable coaches in the world and look how things went in the end for him.

We have to ask some questions about this tour - take Mick O'Driscoll - he's a solid player, uninspiring, but competent. He does a decent job for Munster, but that's it. Now why is Mick O'Driscoll involved in the Ireland team ahead of someone like Bob Casey, whose hailed as one of the best second-rows in the English league, and captained a team to the final of the GP?

As for this game, why's he there ahead of youth? Why is Tony Buckley whose had a monumentally, epically bad year starting ahead of Mike 'Premiership dream team' Ross? Of course we're entitled to question.

I reckon he's a canny coach who'll easily get us the wins out here, but do we need to reward the hardwork of someone like Dowling, who'll never feature as a first team international, or do we need to blood youth? Both arguments have merits. One thing I will say in favour of Dowling's selection is that under the reign of Eddie O'Sullivan guys outside the chosen circle got no look in at all. If Bowe, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Kearney, Murphy, Murphy, Dempsey and Trimble all got injured we might well need Dowling, and at least he'll have the experience to come in and do a job.

thehighground wrote: »

He still makes the first XV everytime for the most competitive team in Europe and has done so for the last 2 years.

And I don't think either McGahan (or Kidney) do sentiment.

Bang on with both points, but is that necessarily proof of talent? Whose better, Darren Fletcher or Cesc Fabregas? I think Dowling's almost brilliant, but not brilliant.

Also Kidney doesn't do sentiment, nor does McGahan (within limits) but they do have pre-existing biases etc. Dowling's played solidly if uninspiringly for Munster for years now. Dowling will never let you down, but he'll never do much either. (I reckon his style of running would actually suit full back or the centres better. He's very hard to stop, reminds me a bit of D'Arcy, someone else who doesn't score many tries.)

themont85

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is a lot more than just a defender, the amount of work and hard yards he gets through are incredible. How often does it take a few tacklers to bring him down, and yet he always gets the ball back. I'd pick a guy like Dowling over a guy like Marcel Garvey or Tom Varndell every time. I'm not surprised some people don't rate him, some people think all rugby should be like 7's, but I prefer to see a guy like Dowling killing himself for the team every game he plays.

He's not a forward or a 12, hard yards shouldn't be the major part of a wingers game.

He's a solid player though, fair play, deserves a cap. If Ireland had a injury crisis and he was thrown in i wouldn't be overly concerned. He's average, but will never let you down.

[Jackass]

karmabass wrote: »

Starting XV for Canada game announced (http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_17296.php)

15. Gavin Duffy (Galwegians/Connacht)
14. Barry Murphy (UL Bohemians/Munster)
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
12. Ian Whitten (Ballymena/Ulster)*
11. Ian Dowling (Shannon/Munster)*
10. Ian Keatley (Galwegians/Connacht)*
9. Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster)
1. Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) (capt)
3. Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)
4. Bob Casey (London Irish)
5. Mick O'Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster)
6. John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht)*
7. Niall Ronan (Shannon/Munster)*
8. Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Replcaements
16. Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
17. Mike Ross (Harlequins)*
18. Ryan Caldwell (Dungannon/Ulster)*
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Eoin Reddan (London Wasps)
21. Niall O'Connor (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
22. Denis Hurley (Cork Constitution/Munster)*

To be honest, those are outrageous calls. Boardering on comical.

I'll just say I've highlighted the Munster players as my point is that the Kidney / Munster connection is shamelessly in play here and it might be a bit harsh to highlight Barry Murphy, so I didn't, but I think while he is the only useful one, he's still a surprise selection imo and I think Whitten is a very surprising call also in fairness (and wasn't he just called up a day ago or something and now in the first 15???)

Donnacha Ryan should be starting ahead of O'Driscoll, yet even if the Leinster players were available I'm sure he would be starting. Caldwell is the correct decision here and MOD is a waste of time for his old buddy...the feckin jockey of Irish rugby - never has such a limited player picked up a Magners League, Heineken Cup, Triple Crown & Six Nations tophy winners medal ..... the lad is completely average and is only without a world cup winners medal for feck sake!!

Dowling is no more than solid at provincial level and should not be in that team. He will never have the pace or finishing to be an international winger and is a waste of time.

And Buckley reminds me of Neill Francais - absolutely useless fat bloke running around the field that does nothing. At least Francis played in an age where a rook inspector who was mid 6 feet served a purpose in the line out, but the amature age is well and truly gone.

I know he's a grand slam and Heineken Cup winning coach, but this is just all about party time for the old boys club and does nothing for Irish rugby or development of players, complete waste of time.

(Sorry Tim )

thehighground

There are SIX first caps in that team. I don't think Tom Court has actually started a game before, has he?

All the backs, bar Stringer are inexperienced at International level. In fact, most the team are inexperienced at international level. (Though most of the Munster lads would have played the US Eagles a couple of times).

Looks like to me, Kidney has tried to put together a fairly hardened pack to provide the completely inexperienced backs with a decent enough platform to shine.

There are really only a couple of experienced internationals on that team - Best, MOD. Leamy and Stringer.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

Dowling is no more than solid at provincial level and should not be in that team. He will never have the pace or finishing to be an international winger and is a waste of time.

I'm not saying I disagree, but who would you have ahead of him? There aren't a lot of options there.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm not saying I disagree, but who would you have ahead of him? There aren't a lot of options there.

There aren't any.

It's interesting looking at an Irish squad with no Leinster players (Or Munster Lions of course)... not too healthy looking... Seems like Leinster are really producing a vast majority of the young exciting Irish players at the moment.

Podge_irl

There aren't any.

Indeed. I'm struggling to think of a single viable alternative (except Carr, but he should be there instead of Hurley).

In terms this tour, we would have been much better off if Munster had made the HEC final! Most of the more promising young players are in Leinster, but c'est la vie.

Chucky the tree

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Meh, it's rugby. Most people get injured and give up.

Look at the dream team Rock had when O'Driscoll was there and how many of them were good enough to play for Leinster or pro rugby and yet got injured and had to retire as kids. Scally etc.

Dowling's a hard-working guy, but he's basically a product of sports-science - he's fit

Alot of people get injured because they arent in good shape or dont put in the extra hours needed in the gym to be at peak physical condition. The reason most of the Rock team didnt make is because once they got to college they spend most of their time partying.


You make it sound as if Dowling just wakes up every monring fit and in great condition because he's just got lucky with genetics.

anonymous_joe

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There aren't any.

It's interesting looking at an Irish squad with no Leinster players (Or Munster Lions of course)... not too healthy looking... Seems like Leinster are really producing a vast majority of the young exciting Irish players at the moment.

Johne Murphy if he wasn't busy Saturday.

Trimble if he wasn't injured.

Brian Carney? What's his deal anyway?

anonymous_joe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Alot of people get injured because they arent in good shape or dont put in the extra hours needed in the gym to be at peak physical condition. The reason most of the Rock team didnt make is because once they got to college they spend most of their time partying.

Yup. Rugby's getting very dangerous for just that reason.

A mate's kid brother whose very talented was at one stage told that if he didn't bulk up by two stone over a summer he wouldn't be considered for the school team. The power is getting unreal at certain levels. It's dangerous.

And yeah, I know a lot of lads who went off like that, but a guy like Scally broke his ankle or something?

Still, Cullen, Casey and O'Driscoll have all ended up as club captains. Not bad.

You make it sound as if Dowling just wakes up every monring fit and in great condition because he's just got lucky with genetics.

Not at all. It takes great effort. But it's still not going to change the fact that he's not very fast.

Chucky the tree

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yup. Rugby's getting very dangerous for just that reason.

A mate's kid brother whose very talented was at one stage told that if he didn't bulk up by two stone over a summer he wouldn't be considered for the school team. The power is getting unreal at certain levels. It's dangerous.

And yeah, I know a lot of lads who went off like that, but a guy like Scally broke his ankle or something?

Still, Cullen, Casey and O'Driscoll have all ended up as club captains. Not bad.


Not at all. It takes great effort. But it's still not going to change the fact that he's not very fast.

Similar in college aswell, and even Sexton mentioned it as a big regret which when an OH is saying that it says it all. There will be a few who do get a freak unfortunate accident but it's rare. I think it's a big reason JW and BOD struggled for awhile with injuries.


I agree, he's a poor player internationally but I certainly wont begrudge him a cap in match against the Yanks when our whole first 15 and then some arent available.

irishbucsfan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Johne Murphy if he wasn't busy Saturday.

He'll be very busy Saturday with his defensive record...

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Trimble if he wasn't injured.

Seems to be overlooked these days. I suppose Ferris is taking up the Ulster place on the squad these days.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Brian Carney? What's his deal anyway?

Isn't he commentating for Sky or something?

anonymous_joe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Similar in college aswell, and even Sexton mentioned it as a big regret which when an OH is saying that it says it all. There will be a few who do get a freak unfortunate accident but it's rare. I think it's a big reason JW and BOD struggled for awhile with injuries.

Yup.

Was in school with some lads who've spent time in the Leinster Academy, and at school you'd avoid playing any rugby with them, because they were just too powerful. And now they're even bigger, tougher and stronger.

I agree, he's a poor player internationally but I certainly wont begrudge him a cap in match against the Yanks when our whole first 15 and then some arent available.

Well I know that, but it's just that I can't help but feeling all this is to give him a cap because he 'deserves' it.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He'll be very busy Saturday with his defensive record...

People make too much of that. It's like O'Gara, he's an awful defender by the standards of international rugby but he actually makes the vast majority of his tackles.

Seems to be overlooked these days. I suppose Ferris is taking up the Ulster place on the squad these days.

Still a good player though. I'm sure we'll see him in the green again some day.

Isn't he commentating for Sky or something?

By all accounts. I don't think he's played for Munster at all this seasons, which seems mad, because he was so obviously talented. Why would you ever bother with lads like Denis Hurley when you've got a Carney?

ALH-06

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I agree, he's a poor player internationally but I certainly wont begrudge him a cap in match against the Yanks when our whole first 15 and then some arent available.

Well that's fair enough - if it's a case of 'giving' him one cap, then that's ok with me. Give the lad a cap, shake his hand and tell him he's had a good ride.

But if this tour is about building for the future, then just forget about Dowling & Hurley.

Hard work blah blah always try their best blah blah. Ok that's very commendable, but in order to make it at the highest level - international level - You need more than hard work and application. This comes after. First off, you need genuine talent. Pace, creativity, attacking flair. And these guys simply don't have those things in enough quantities.

Dowling's been a good servant to Munster. Solid at provincial level. But that's not good enough. Not to play for Ireland.

And Hurley isn't even a provincial player ffs.

BTW: Can people stop comparing Dowling to D'Arcy, it just doesn't work.

Podge_irl

ALH-06 wrote: »

Well that's fair enough - if it's a case of 'giving' him one cap, then that's ok with me. Give the lad a cap, shake his hand and tell him he's had a good ride.

But if this tour is about building for the future, then just forget about Dowling & Hurley.

Hard work blah blah always try their best blah blah. Ok that's very commendable, but in order to make it at the highest level - international level - You need more than hard work and application. This comes after. First off, you need genuine talent. Pace, creativity, attacking flair. And these guys simply don't have those things in enough quantities.

Dowling's been a good servant to Munster. Solid at provincial level. But that's not good enough. Not to play for Ireland.

I'd really love to know who exactly you think should be taking Dowling's place on the tour/team.

ALH-06

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd really love to know who exactly you think should be taking Dowling's place on the tour/team.

On the wing?

Felix Jones, Fionn Carr, Mark McCrea all have better international prospects.

Podge_irl

Well Carr should definitely be there, but as I said he should really be there ahead of Hurley. Dowling is a better wing then Murphy too, so to be honest he's the last of those three who should be replaced.

I have a vague recollection of hearing McCrea is injured, though I could be making that up. Jones doesn't even start for Leinster when the frontliners are being rested, you can't honestly expect that he's be called up to the senior team. He's done nothing to deserve it. Dowling is the best wing available to Ireland at the moment.

ALH-06

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well Carr should definitely be there, but as I said he should really be there ahead of Hurley. Dowling is a better wing then Murphy too, so to be honest he's the last of those three who should be replaced.

I have a vague recollection of hearing McCrea is injured, though I could be making that up. Jones doesn't even start for Leinster when the frontliners are being rested, you can't honestly expect that he's be called up to the senior team. He's done nothing to deserve it. Dowling is the best wing available to Ireland at the moment.

I accept that point about Jones.

I think the difference with Dowling is that deep down, people know he'll never make it at this level - as I said, he's a solid provincial player but will never be any more than that. So playing him in a 'development' match is perceived as being a waste of time. Why not play a wildcard?

As for Jones, he doesn't get played because Horgan, Nacewa, Fitz, Keogh, Kearney etc are ahead in the pecking order, unfortunately for him. None of these players are available for Ireland on Saturday... I've seen Jones play a few times and I think he has the makings of a quality winger. Definitely enough talent to invest serious gametime in. Hopefully, he'll get more of a chance to shine down at Munster. They've signed him for a reason after all.

thomond2006

And to think, some of us thought back in January that Ian Humphreys would be the next Irish number 10. :rolleyes:

Ye feckin eejits. :D

Somebody shoulod change the thread title to "Canada vs Ireland match thread" instead of dissing a player.

MG

Delighted for Barry Murphy - don't think he would have deserved a one cap wonder tag.

As for Dowling, he has two Heineken Cup Medals. He held his place when Munster brought in Rugby League's top winger, was Declan Kidney's choice etc etc No question, he's not the most talented player ever but he still brings a lot to the game. Maybe he's the new Shane Horgan?

P.S. According to the RTE website "Denis Leamy will win his first cap at number eight". :eek:

toomevara

great to see Big Bob getting another cap, only had to wait ten years!!! Now thats patience...must be the longest interval between caps in Irish rugby surely?

Tim Robbins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is a lot more than just a defender, the amount of work and hard yards he gets through are incredible. How often does it take a few tacklers to bring him down, and yet he always gets the ball back. I'd pick a guy like Dowling over a guy like Marcel Garvey or Tom Varndell every time. I'm not surprised some people don't rate him, some people think all rugby should be like 7's, but I prefer to see a guy like Dowling killing himself for the team every game he plays.

Yeah his positional play is usually alright as well. He also managed to keep Brian Carney out of the munster team.

He's not world class, but deserves chances if they are available and the alternatives aren't any better.

Jackass wrote:

MOD is a waste of time for his old buddy...the feckin jockey of Irish rugby - never has such a limited player picked up a Magners League, Heineken Cup, Triple Crown & Six Nations tophy winners medal ..... the lad is completely average and is only without a world cup winners medal for feck sake!!

First and foremost, his lineout play is always alright. Would you agree with that?

So what's the weakness of his game? Or what parts of his game are worse than the alternative second row options?

I don't think he'd have the same tackle count as POC, DOC or would be as effective at the breakdown or ball carrying as POC, but who is?

Podge_irl

ALH-06 wrote: »

I think the difference with Dowling is that deep down, people know he'll never make it at this level - as I said, he's a solid provincial player but will never be any more than that. So playing him in a 'development' match is perceived as being a waste of time. Why not play a wildcard?

It's still a test match and there is no one else available who has done anything in the slightest to deserve a cap imo.

Maybe he's the new Shane Horgan?

He's not even close to as good as Horgan. Lacks the physicality and sheer size of him for one, and I imagine Horgan is quicker.

MG

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's not even close to as good as Horgan. Lacks the physicality and sheer size of him for one, and I imagine Horgan is quicker.

Don't get me wrong, two or three seasons ago Horgan was superb. Just that he is from the "Can't sing, can't dance, look awful - he'll go a long way" stable of players. Horgan is no Blanco - but he was well worth his place in his day. Dowling is similar in this respect.

Podge_irl

MG wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, two or three seasons ago Horgan was superb. Just that he is from the "Can't sing, can't dance, look awful - he'll go a long way" stable of players. Horgan is no Blanco - but he was well worth his place in his day. Dowling is similar in this respect.

Dowling won't go a long way though. I wouldn't be shocked if these are his only ever caps. He is a similar player alright, but unfortunately just not as good in any aspect really

anonymous_joe

MG wrote: »

As for Dowling, he has two Heineken Cup Medals. He held his place when Munster brought in Rugby League's top winger, was Declan Kidney's choice etc etc No question, he's not the most talented player ever but he still brings a lot to the game. Maybe he's the new Shane Horgan?

Ian Dowling has more Heineken Cup winners medals than Denis Hickie. Whose the more talented? ^^

Tim Robbins wrote: »

First and foremost, his lineout play is always alright. Would you agree with that?

So what's the weakness of his game? Or what parts of his game are worse than the alternative second row options?

I don't think he'd have the same tackle count as POC, DOC or would be as effective at the breakdown or ball carrying as POC, but who is?

Thing about MOD is that he's not bad at anything. But he doesn't excel at anything either. He's competent. Anyway, he's the same age roughly as Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Leo Cullen and Bob Casey, and in fairness is probably the worst of all of them. He's not going to ever be a first team player for Ireland, and so there's no point capping him ahead of some of the kids.

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's not even close to as good as Horgan. Lacks the physicality and sheer size of him for one, and I imagine Horgan is quicker.

Horgan's extraordinarily fast.

MG wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, two or three seasons ago Horgan was superb. Just that he is from the "Can't sing, can't dance, look awful - he'll go a long way" stable of players. Horgan is no Blanco - but he was well worth his place in his day. Dowling is similar in this respect.

Horgan's fast, strong and can score tries. Despite never winning a HC medal he's almost the top scorer in Heineken Cup rugby. How many HC tries does Dowling have?

Tim Robbins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Horgan's fast, strong and can score tries. Despite never winning a HC medal he's almost the top scorer in Heineken Cup rugby. How many HC tries does Dowling have?

Horgan is good at:
1. Breaking tackles
2. Staying on his feet in contact
3. Cross field kicks
4. Tackling

He's also very good at finishing. I think this is a big thing for wingers. Invariably they are held up with a last ditch tackle. Now reaching, and grounding the ball with one hand is more of an essential skill than it ever was. Horgan is also very good at this.

Where Horgans is not good in my view is:
1. Passing. Throws some poor passes at times.
2. Footwork. His just to big and heavy legged to side step with speed a la Fitzgerald.

Overall Horgan would be a far better player than Dowling. But compared to some other big name big man wingers such as Rougerie, Tuquiri etc he'd wouldn't be as good.

He's international class, but not world class.

SomeFool

I like the look of the team actually. Plenty of experience at 15, 9, 2, 4, 5, and 8, and plenty of young players around them. I'm sure the players on the bench will all get plenty game time in both games. I think singling out Dowling is harsh, he's not the only 'limited' player on that tour but given the amount of unavailable players this is inevitable. I reckon if 4 or 5 players put their hands up to challenge for future honors then the tour will have been a success. Looking forward to seeing Keatley playing in a stronger team then usual and seeing what cave has to offer at 13. Hopefully Ross, Ryan and Caldwell will get 40 mins of action too.