Near crash with cyclists

thebouldwhacker

Hey, I'm posting this as therapy and seeking ideas. Even though this happened Saturday I'm still quite put out over it. Before I start I cycle, I use the road in car/van/bike a lot and welcome all to our national road ways, I think no one mode has more of a right than others but with that all users must use the roads safely and with respect for others.

The dual carriage way outside Cork City (the Dublin road) has a speed limit of 120km, it is not officially a motor way (I think) but one of the recent 'upgraded roads' (Until a few months ago its limit was 100km)

I was driving to Cork, it was an awful day, heavy rain, lot of traffic etc. I was to take the exit for Glanmire so I was slowing already when I came around a bend an saw what looked like a yellow jacket in the distance, I thought it may be the cops, getting closer I saw hazard lights flash twice or three times, then thought maybe a break down. I put on my indicator to pull off and before i knew it there were about 20 cyclists on the road in front of me, they were stretched out blocking the exit (ie the group wasa quite long, I wasn't able to pass them and take the turn) My options were...

1 pass them in the fast lane skipping the turn off.
2 pass them on the inside and hope they weren't turning too
3 brake hard slowing to their pace and wait for them to pass the exit so I could turn off


While I was deciding I realised I didnt have any choice because I was blocked from entering the fast lane as cars were passing me out. All I could do was slap on the brakes and slow to their pace. Of course The van behind me was going through the same crisis and came very close to crashing into the back of me, I was looking ahead and in all three mirrors for options and to avoid hitting anyone or anyone hitting me when I saw the car behind the van swerving to avoid rear-ending it and this caused mayhem in the fast lane.
I saw then that the bikes were indeed carrying on straight so I ducked inside and got outa the way of the other cars, I was now doing 10/20 mph (was a little too busy to look at my speedo) I opened the window to 'inform' one of the bikes of the danger they were causing but just before I got a chance to ONE OF THE BIKES SWERVED INFRONT OF ME!! he wiped his face or some simular movement and shifted 2-3 out of line and into my path (que move swift braking) at that I decided to just leave, count myself (and them) lucky that I hadnt hit anyone or any one hit anyone else. I can only hope that as they cycled on they at least did so inside the yellow line. Thing is if the van (or other car) had hit me I would have been shoved into the group.

I have a number of issues with what happened:

They were cycling with a support car (it was a focus or the like) but it had no extra lights other than the hazards. It was in front of them, (they are on a motor way with no on coming traffic etc, it should have been behind them with bells and whistles!!!). I'm sure someone will say it was a wind break well sorry but it should have been behind them. when the bend in the road was gone I could not even see the hazards so it was serving absolutely NO safety function.

They should not have been on this road at all! (controversial) This road is relatively new and replaced a normal main road which is perfect for a group like this to cycle. As the official Motorway ended only 5 miles or so up the road I can only hope they were only on this road since the previous entrance/exit (as its illegal to cycle on motor ways as far as I am aware). This means that the road they left for the dangers of the dual carrageway, which they were not prepared for, is the same distance to the city and would have given them shelter from the elements, would have seen them contend with cars etc going MAX 100km and would have had a fraction of the numbers of vehicles.

While the incident described above would have been lessoned if other cars flashed their hazards for on coming cars in this instance I put blame squarely at the feet of the organisers/ route planners.

I saw one of them wearing a club jersey and am tempted to ring them and F*** them out of it, maybe even the cops.

I am so angry cos as a cyclist I always debate with my friends that drivers must be accommodating of all road users and then this!
What I'm saying is that if cyclists are allowed to use such fast roads (motor way all but in name) then they need to have appropriate safety measures I only saw ONE cyclist wearing a high vis top, the support car was a good 10-20 meters ahead of the last bike and serving no use or warning to other road users. Obviously as the van behind me wasn't prepared to stop so quickly they didn't see the bikes either and just going by the actions of other cars neither did other drivers.

I was driving the opposite direction the morning of the motorway pile up on the Naas by pass a number of years ago and witnessed the madness and carnage that it was. Since then I have been paranoid and very careful about crashes on dual carriageways, this to me was so dangerous that it should lead to some kind of sanction on the organisers (fine/ban).

Cheers:mad:

(also) if anyone here was on this cycle PLEASE do tell WTF ye were upto???

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

This means that the road they left for the dangers of the dual carrageway, which they were not prepared for,

It seems you weren't too well prepared either.

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

(also) if anyone here was on this cycle PLEASE do tell WTF ye were upto???

Cycling on a road.

jautukas87

OMG :eek: :eek: what a hard decision you had to make there. One thing is hard to understand how didn't you get tired to write an essay.

Nothing personal. Just a bad day.

thebouldwhacker

petethedrummer wrote: »

It seems you weren't too well prepared either..

Thats it!

They were testing drivers reaction times!!

yea, when driving on a motorway one should always slow going around bends incase there is something around it, what would you suggest, 10mph perhaps???


I think the end result shows I was prepared btw

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Thats it!

They were testing drivers reaction times!!

yea, when driving on a motorway one should always slow going around bends incase there is something around it, what would you suggest, 10mph perhaps???

I would suggest you modify your driving to suit the conditions. It could have been a row of stopped cars. Could have resulted in one of these pile ups you seem so keen to avoid. Or a stray cow.

When you crash into the back of something its your fault. Anyways I'll contact the cyclists involved and get them to apologise for holding you up and thank you for not killing them. Good Job.

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

when driving on a motorway

Were you on a motorway or a Dual Carriage way?

Lumen

OK, to condense....

You were driving along a dual carriageway and found your exit blocked by slow traffic.

Your options are:

1. Carry on and miss your exit.
2. Slow down and wait until the exit is clear.

Do whichever is you feel is safe and convenient. I'd probably choose (2) and live with the extra journey time.

This is the same decision process as when the exit is blocked by queueing traffic.

Everyone slower than you is annoying, and everyone faster than you is a maniac. This is why cyclists think drivers are maniacs, and drivers think cyclists are annoying.

DirkVoodoo

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I came around a bend an saw what looked like a yellow jacket in the distance, I thought it may be the cops, getting closer I saw hazard lights flash twice or three times, then thought maybe a break down. I put on my indicator to pull off and before i knew it there were about 20 cyclists on the road in front of me,

I'm having trouble visualising this, so bear with me.

When you saw the hazard lights you were rounding a bend, no? So when the cyclists appeared were you still on the bend or had the road straightened up?

No offence to the car drivers, but in heavy conditions you gotta allow a lot more room. If the cars behind you were nearly piling on top of each other because you went from 100 to 20 km/hr then they were obviously too close. Not being smart, but I would hate to think what might have happened had someone needed to break hard and sudden, be it as a result of the cyclists or some other hazard.

Coming back home on saturday with Tiny in the car we had a car turn right across us at a busy junction (somewhere in Dublin, don't ask me where). She couldn't have possibly have had a line of sight on traffic because I couldn't see her car until it was turning across the junction as the line of traffic she was in was obscured by the cars on our side of the road waiting to turn right.

If you see hazard lights and a group of cyclists, unfortunately you have to slow down and wait. It may be infuriating and by gosh you might be 5 minutes later than you had hoped, but it has to be done. I wonder if farming and agricultural forums get posters coming on saying "hey, could someone let me know what that fella in the tractor or fella herding cattle down the road was playing at!"

mikemac

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

It was in front of them, (they are on a motor way with no on coming traffic etc, it should have been behind them with bells and whistles!!!).

You're contradicting yourself. You also posted it wasn't a motorway.
Fair point though, with no oncoming traffic it probably should be behind. On normal roads it make another decision if they wish

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I came around a bend an saw what looked like a yellow jacket in the distance

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

then they need to have appropriate safety measures I only saw ONE cyclist wearing a high vis top,

Well you saw if from a distance so it obviously worked.

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

before i knew it there were about 20 cyclists on the road in front of me

You're posting about the carnage on the Naas Rd yet these cyclists appeared before you knew it.
You're right, it could have been another pileup and yet again drivers not driving for the conditions, heavy rain and poor visibility in your case.

Finally let me state I don't remember any other posts by you, but your username is cool :cool:

thebouldwhacker

petethedrummer wrote: »

I would suggest you modify your driving to suit the conditions. It could have been a row of stopped cars. Could have resulted in one of these pile ups you seem so keen to avoid. Or a stray cow.

When you crash into the back of something its your fault. Anyways I'll contact the cyclists involved and get them to apologise for holding you up and thank you for not killing them. Good Job.

Pete thanks for the replies to this post, have I insulted you in some way or are you just trolling? What you may have not got from my story was that I had plenty of time to slow and stop if needed but the cars behind me were a different story, this because of the conditions. If it was a row of cars they would have had warning lights (that safety measure i was talking about) and yes they may (in your world ) have been a cow, but cows arn't that good at being road wise so youd expect them to cause trouble but a group of adults taking the decision to use a road, in bad conditions without proper planning is something which is intentional and can be avoided, or at least properly serviced, see the difference....

petethedrummer wrote: »

Were you on a motorway or a Dual Carriage way?

Read the text the answer is in it.

DirkVoodoo

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I had plenty of time to slow and stop if needed but the cars behind me were a different story, this because of the conditions.

So that kind of backs up my point, it was the motorists being careless in difficult conditions and not the cyclists, right?

EDIT: Can you rename the thread so it is more accurate, e.g. "Near crash with drivers being wreckless while I was attempting to maneuvre around a group of cyclists in bad driving conditions"

Lumen

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

yea, when driving on a motorway one should always slow going around bends incase there is something around it, what would you suggest, 10mph perhaps???

The most critical rule of safe driving is that you must be able to stop on your side of the road in the space that you can see to be clear, and is likely to remain so.

This applies to every type of road.

mikemac

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

"hey, could someone let me know what that fella in the tractor or fella herding cattle down the road was playing at!"

Wait a few weeks.
Happens every summer

"I was out for a Sunday drive on one of the few sunny days Ireland gets each summer.
A farmer driving his tractor and working a 16 hour day on this sunny day slowed me down. Get off the road!!!

Great fun in motors forum every summer.
Sorry, offtopic for this forum though

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

What you may have not got from my story was that I had plenty of time to slow and stop if needed but the cars behind me were a different story, this because of the conditions.

Then you need to be angry with the cars behind you.

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

If it was a row of cars they would have had warning lights (that safety measure i was talking about)

They May have had hazards on. You can't take it as a given.

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Read the text the answer is in it.

It's not clear, you said this was a dual-carriage way with a 120km speed limit. Which is not necessarily a motorway. Parts of the N2 are like this.

You said this, which implies it is not a motorway.

it is not officially a motor way (I think) but one of the recent 'upgraded roads' (Until a few months ago its limit was 100km)

Then you implied it was a motorway

when driving on a motorway one should always slow going around

It also seems i'm not the only one confused. judging by other replies and your 'I think'.

thebouldwhacker

Sorry if i wasn't clear, because of the rain I couldnt identify what was ahead, the lights were beyond my turn point so I didnt really pay much heed, I switched on my hazards as soon as I saw they were cyclists.

As stated in the first paragraph I have no issue with cyclists on any road, and dont care about being held up by them my issue is that they were cycling without being visable, thats all. The only warning lights were ineffective and in my world that is not safe.

DirkVoodoo

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

As stated in the first paragraph I have no issue with cyclists on any road, and dont care about being held up by them my issue is that they were cycling without being visable, thats all. The only warning lights were ineffective and in my world that is not safe.

Wait, this is getting VERY confusing!

You saw a high viz jacket AND hazard lights (from a support car riding behind them?) from a way off, and yet they were still invisible to you?

Should have gone to specsavers

EDIT: By the way, I am all for visibility, I like to bring my little knogg gekko when the weather looks a bit hazy, but there are few options available to cyclists that would be better seen than hazard lights on a car.

petethedrummer

I know you think I'm trolling but how heavy was this rain that you couldn't see a big bunch of cyclists?

thebouldwhacker

So what I'm getting here is that its ok to organise a group cycle in dangerous conditions on a 120kmph road (although there is an alternitive route which is more suitable) without proper preperation or putting safty as a consideration? Just go out and cycle? no warnings for fellow road users?

DirkVoodoo

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

So what I'm getting here is that its ok to organise a group cycle in dangerous conditions on a 120kmph road (although there is an alternitive route which is more suitable) without proper preperation or putting safty as a consideration? Just go out and cycle? no warnings for fellow road users?

No, you are right, its not acceptable. But it sounds like they werent a few lads clad in black weaving across the road. They had a support car behind them and at least one lad we know of was wearing high viz at such a distance that he was noticeable to you yet you couldn't tell if it was a Garda with a speedgun/on a motorbike or a cyclist. So I don't see how they "just appeared".

DirkVoodoo

Also, if conditions were as bad as you say then you might have wanted to skip pulling up alongside them to give them a piece of your mind. We had some very bad wind on saturday and it was difficult to keep a perfectly straight line at times.

thebouldwhacker

petethedrummer wrote: »

how heavy was this rain that you couldn't see a big bunch of cyclists?

It was so heavy I couldn't see a big bunch of cyclists...;)

thebouldwhacker

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

They had a support car behind them

In front, thats the thing, the car was leading down a one way road. So as soon as the road straightned the cyclists blocked the cars lights and so it appeared that the lights were no more, same with the hi viz (hi viz in this instance isnt reflective strips just a bright yellow rain top), he wasnt last and so was hidden by his fellow riders when my view was from directly behind...

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

So what I'm getting here is that its ok to organise a group cycle in dangerous conditions on a 120kmph road (although there is an alternitive route which is more suitable) without proper preperation or putting safty as a consideration? Just go out and cycle? no warnings for fellow road users?

It's probably not advisable given how alot of people drive. But then you said yourself drivers should be accomodating of all road uses. There's no law against cycling in the rain and there probably is against tailgating. Maybe they felt a large group would be easily seen on a big wide dual carriage way. Maybe they felt (rightly or wrongly) that it was safer than the other route. I can't comment on that as I don't know the particular roads.

Was it a race? a training ride or a charity cycle? A race may not be easily moved.

Anyways I'm off under my bridge for the night. (sad when a reasonable difference of opinion is taken as trolling).

thebouldwhacker

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

We had some very bad wind on saturday and it was difficult to keep a perfectly straight line at times.

Would it have been bad enough to say, 'ya know what, thats a bad road, whata ya say (seeing as we are not prepared) we skip that plan and use the old main road? It'll suit our needs better and we'll arrive at the same place anyway...'

thebouldwhacker

petethedrummer wrote: »

Anyways I'm off under my bridge for the night. (sad when a reasonable difference of opinion is taken as trolling).

SIR! you lead with your sword!!!:pac:

petethedrummer wrote: »

It seems you weren't too well prepared either

DirkVoodoo

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Would it have been bad enough to say, 'ya know what, thats a bad road, whata ya say (seeing as we are not prepared) we skip that plan and use the old main road? It'll suit our needs better and we'll arrive at the same place anyway...'

Well, we were on an organised spin that was well marshalled and a fixed route, see the "Mt.Leinster Challenge" thread for more details.

But in your case I think that yes they made the wrong decision. I don't know those roads but frankly I hate taking the N11 as part of a cycling route to Rathdrum. It's safe enough, but crossing exits is a bit nerve wracking and requires a lot of awareness and common sense. You are also relying on drivers to drive within the limits of what conditions allow. Too many times you see people driving at 120km/hr the way they would drive at 20 km/hr, in sunshine or rain.

BostonB

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

... I came around a bend an saw what looked like a yellow jacket in the distance, I thought it may be the cops, getting closer I saw hazard lights flash twice or three times, then thought maybe a break down. I put on my indicator to pull off and before i knew it there were about 20 cyclists on the road in front of me, they were stretched out blocking the exit ....

....I didnt have any choice because I was blocked from entering the fast lane as cars were passing me out. All I could do was slap on the brakes and slow to their pace. Of course The van behind me was going through the same crisis and came very close to crashing into the back of me,...

Maybe I'm missing something but in the conditions, heavy rain, etc, and poor sight lines ahead, ie a corner. To have to jam the brakes on suggests driving too fast for the conditions, ditto those behind, not leaving enough space between cars.

Its fair comment that in the conditions the pace car should have been behind and they should have been more visible. Perhaps they should have been on a different route. But you've headlights, and if you can't see ahead you should slow down.

thebouldwhacker

Dirk i agree, I have been a motorist for many years and I am a careful driver, as a cyclist I do not believe I have ever had a horn blown nor a fist waved in anger at me.

I have made errors on the road but have never caused a crash or any kind of incident. The only crash I have ever been in was while I was parked and an ass**** lost control of his van and hit my car.

This did look like a spin rather than an event and my only problem with them was their compleate lack of preperation re the conditions. If they wanna cycle through a storm more power to them but in primary school I was taught that if your on the road be seen, its a pretty basic principle and this group seemed unaware that they were not being savy regarding safty.

I care not what another peoson does in this world so long as their actions dont harm or endanger others. Their actions were endangering others. As far as I remember all the other cars/vans etc had their lights on because conditions were so bad, this group thought it acceptable to cycle behind their support without and rear warning system. The weather was bad all day so it didn't catch them by surprize, it was just badly organised.

thebouldwhacker

BostonB wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something but in the conditions, heavy rain, etc, and poor sight lines ahead, ie a corner. To have to jam the brakes on suggests driving too fast for the conditions, ditto those behind, not leaving enough space between cars.

Its fair comment that in the conditions the pace car should have been behind and they should have been more visible. Perhaps they should have been on a different route. But you've headlights, and if you can't see ahead you should slow down.

Why prey tell is my driving being brought into question? I was in compleate control of my car. I dont know how you drive but if I can avoid it I prefer not to drive at 20 kmph down a 120kmph road behind something that no one else can see!
What drivers should and shouldnt do on a road is for the motoring forum, this is about organising an event (spin, race whatever) without proper safty steps being taken. Except for the guy who swerved in front of me my anger is at the organisers.

petethedrummer

Nella Mit, Nella Mit, Nella Mit.

thebouldwhacker

petethedrummer wrote: »

Nella Mit, Nella Mit, Nella Mit.

Sorry Pete, you lost me with that one.

BostonB

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Why prey tell is my driving being brought into question? I was in compleate control of my car. I dont know how you drive but if I can avoid it I prefer not to drive at 20 kmph down a 120kmph road behind something that no one else can see!
What drivers should and shouldnt do on a road is for the motoring forum, this is about organising an event (spin, race whatever) without proper safty steps being taken. Except for the guy who swerved in front of me my anger is at the organisers.

If you can't see whats in front of you, and its so bad that people behind can't see you, no one should be driving at any speed. Doesn't matter what forum you are in. Thats just common sense.

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Sorry Pete, you lost me with that one.

I'M SUMMONING HIM. All will become clear sometime tomorrow.

DirkVoodoo

petethedrummer wrote: »

I'M SUMMONING HIM. All will become clear sometime tomorrow.

Nice! I can't believe I actually tried putting "nella mit" into an german-english translator

I'm surprised his spider sense wasn't tingling already, must be getting slow!

nitrogen

In France speed limits change with weather conditions. Ignoring the law and only using common sense regarding friction coefficients, one shouldn't be matching the speed limit in the weather conditions described above.

uberwolf

I'm glad you guys had fun over night with this one.