Libertas want work visas for Irish working in NI

Steviemak

Libertas want to restrict Irish people working in an EU country to two years. They believe that Irish people living in border areas but working either side should not be allowed free access to these jobs but would have to apply for a blue card that only lasts two years.

http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/Matt-Cooper/listen.aspx (15/05/09 the 5pm show at about 4 minutes in

I believe this would have a terrible impact on border counties and would increase bureaucracy to a totally unsustainable level.

What libertas are proposing is an end to the free movement of labour around europe. The tens of thousands of Irish people working all over the EU would potentially not be allowed to work in these countries anymore. But to top this off Libertas believe that these Irish people should then be compensated by being allowed to claim the Irish dole while living abroad. Therefore, Irish people in Spain etc can claim our unemployment benefits while living over there.

Does this expose the Libertas agenda as nonsense? This is just one in a long line of bogus unworkable ideas being proposed by this collection of far right wing looneys and neo facists.

I'd be especially interested to know what do people in border counties feel about this proposal??

is_that_so

Libertas had the discipline of a focussed attack on the Lisbon text last year. On that occasion negative campaigning was the only game in town. However as SF have learnt one needs policies that people will vote for. Libertas are all over the place and clearly making it up as they go along. This raises questions about their existence as a political entity. The daily stream of commuters from the North highlight the potentially unexpected results of a poorly thought out plan, in much the same way as FF made a mess of the over 70 medical cards.

ionix5891

woa what a bunch of (bigger) clowns

every day something more stupid than the day before comes out about them

O'Morris

I think Libertas will get a lot of votes out of this. They're getting my vote anyway.

Steviemak wrote:

Libertas want work visas for Irish working in NI

What do you mean by Irish working in NI? Most people working in NI are Irish.

is_that_so wrote:

the potentially unexpected results of a poorly thought out plan

The decision to open our labour market to millions of low-wage Eastern Europeans was itself a poorly thought out plan that is making the job of dealing with the recession much more difficult than it would otherwise be. Not only is it costing us tens of millions each week to support the east Europeans on the dole but the increased competition for jobs is making it much more difficult for people out of work to get back into employment.

Of all the incompetent and short-sighted decisions made by the Fianna Fail government during the boom years the decision to lift the work restrictions on the eastern Europeans would have to come very high on the list.

is_that_so wrote:

What libertas are proposing is an end to the free movement of labour around europe.

I don't think we can have free-movement of labour in Europe now that Europe includes the eastern European countries. Their wage levels are just too low compared with ours that the pull factors drawing them here are much greater than they would have been for the pre-enlargement EU members. It was alright back 5 or 6 six years ago when wage levels across the pre-enlargement EU were relatively equal. The incentive for people to move between countries was not as great then as it is now.

is_that_so

O'Morris wrote: »

The decision to open our labour market to millions of low-wage Eastern Europeans was itself a poorly thought out plan that is making the job of dealing with the recession much more difficult than it would otherwise be. Not only is it costing us tens of millions each week to support the east Europeans on the dole but the increased competition for jobs is making it much more difficult for people out of work to get back into employment.

Of all the incompetent and short-sighted decisions made by the Fianna Fail government during the boom years the decision to lift the work restrictions on the eastern Europeans would have to come very high on the list.

The point here is that NI, however much we argue over its political status is in another EU country. Competition for jobs is not a reason to vote for Libertas any more than voting for an anti-abortion party will stop abortions. I respect your choice but I suspect they too have misled you on what they can actually do and more importantly what they will do. That said by the looks of things there will be no Irish Libertas MEPs.

Much of this reminds me of a neighbour I had in Germany who disliked foreigners in general and regularly ranted to me about them. I suppose I should have been grateful to be an acceptable exception.

I am not sure where all of these votes are going to come from. Aside from Ganley the other two come across as being inept, crass and generally clueless. They will not get elected and Ganley will probably fall short as well.

O'Morris

is_that_so wrote:

Competition for jobs is not a reason to vote for Libertas any more than voting for an anti-abortion party will stop abortions. I respect your choice but I suspect they too have misled you on what they can actually do and more importantly what they will do.

I want to see a message sent to our political leaders that a continuation of current levels of immigration is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to reduce it. If Libertas are powerless to do anything about it they can still act as the mouthpiece through which that message is sent.

is_that_so wrote:

That said by the looks of things there will be no Irish Libertas MEPs.

I always suspected that if Libertas started doing badly in the polls that they would use immigration as the nuclear option to get the attention of the silent majority in this country. A large section of the Irish population are not happy about the current levels of immigration and about the problems that it is causing now that we're in a recession. Any party with the courage to represent the views of that constituency stands a very good chance of doing well on election day.

is_that_so wrote:

Much of this reminds me of a neighbour I had in Germany who disliked foreigners in general and regularly ranted to me about them. I suppose I should have been grateful to be an acceptable exception

Are you another one of these people who thinks anyone opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe who dislikes foreigners?

is_that_so wrote:

I am not sure where all of these votes are going to come from.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase "army of the unemployed" before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour

is_that_so wrote:

Aside from Ganley the other two come across as being inept, crass and generally clueless.

And the Irish electorate have never in it's history voted in inept, crass or clueless politicians.

P. Breathnach

O'Morris wrote: »

... Are you another one of these people who thinks anyone opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe who dislikes foreigners? ...

I have yet to encounter a xenophobe who doesn't dislike foreigners.

O'Morris

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have yet to encounter a xenophobe who doesn't dislike foreigners.

You need to get out more. There are plenty of us knocking around.

turgon

This kind of argument is based on the assumption that Eastern Europeans can work for less because they send money home etc. But that is only a small, even tiny, part of it.

I have Polish neighbors renting in the house next door. From what I see there are between 4 and 6 people living in there. They have one car between the whole lot of them. They shop in Aldi. They dont go out on the town instead organizing parties next door to save money I assume.

The reason they can work for less is because they are willing to live a less luxurious type of lifestyle, not because of their nationality and the cost of living in their homeland. So maybe if the anti-immigration "silent majority" were willing to make similar cuts in their lifestyle they would be able to compete with the Eastern Europeans. Although that would require work - its easier just to kick out those that threaten you :rolleyes:

And as regards them getting the dole. They paid tax for so many years and rightfully earned PRSI credits by injecting money into OUR economy. The stereotype is that they work longer hours and make more money. Some of the boom was attributed to the influx of this labour.

Anyone who says that a Eastern Europeans dont deserve the benefits from the system they paid tax to is being racist. They are not judging on their work records instead on their nationality/race. That is what racism is.

Steviemak

O'Morris wrote: »

What do you mean by Irish working in NI? Most people working in NI are Irish.

Well according to Libertas these Irish people will need visas to work in Ireland. They referred themselves to the example of (Northern) Irish workers from Newry needing visas to work in Dundalk and vice versa!!

I get the impression you are not open to debate on any issue re Libertas which is disappointing considering their proposals do merit some serious debate.

O'Morris, you seem happy with the Libertas agenda - can you explain how the blue card system will work in border areas and what effect this will have on employment, trade etc?

Steviemak

O'Morris wrote: »

I want to see a message sent to our political leaders that a continuation of current levels of immigration is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to reduce it.

So this is the reason to vote in Libertas?? Why not vote for Immigration Control??

I think the you'll find that the level of immigration in this country has reduced to minuscule levels over the last few months. Immigrants come to successful prosperous countries and help growth continue. Countries with no immigration are countries that don't prosper. All successful western countries have immigration. All unsuccessful ones have emigration.

Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

I have yet to encounter a xenophobe who doesn't dislike foreigners.

You need to get out more. There are plenty of us knocking around.

Looking for dictionaries, hopefully.

amused,
Scofflaw

ionix5891

Steviemak can you check the link in your post seems broken

is_that_so

O'Morris wrote: »

I want to see a message sent to our political leaders that a continuation of current levels of immigration is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to reduce it. If Libertas are powerless to do anything about it they can still act as the mouthpiece through which that message is sent.

So why vote for a mouthpiece that will be rendered voiceless by not getting elected?

O'Morris wrote: »

I always suspected that if Libertas started doing badly in the polls that they would use immigration as the nuclear option to get the attention of the silent majority in this country. A large section of the Irish population are not happy about the current levels of immigration and about the problems that it is causing now that we're in a recession. Any party with the courage to represent the views of that constituency stands a very good chance of doing well on election day.

Hmm, they were never doing well. The election/referendum gambit by Ganley was based on the assumption that Lisbon would be part of the EU elections. Neither he nor you, it appears understand politics and in particular EU elections. He wrongfully assumed that we would vote for the Libertas vision which up until a few weeks ago was nothing more than Lisbon bad, EU bad. Now they're on about jobs , leadership, old people, immigration and God knows what.

O'Morris wrote: »

Are you another one of these people who thinks anyone opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe who dislikes foreigners?

No, but one has to be careful how that opposition is voiced. But I do despise the mindless "Deys taking our jobs" cant.

O'Morris wrote: »

I'm sure you've heard the phrase "army of the unemployed" before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour

Yeah, but Ganley doesn't appeal to them at all. He's on the right eh lunatic fringe. Any self-respecting unemployed person is more likely to be swayed by good old fashioned left wing rhetoric, similar to what Labour are using at present. You also assume that this great army could be bothered to vote.

O'Morris wrote: »

And the Irish electorate have never in it's history voted in inept, crass or clueless politicians.

No, but they usually start out with a bit of nous. Neither of the pair seem to have an idea what they are on about. More importantly both are languishing, according to that poll, in very low single figures, so they really don't have a hope and we'll just have to elect other inept, crass or clueless politicians

Steviemak

ionix5891 wrote: »

Steviemak can you check the link in your post seems broken

Should work - just checked it.

BlitzKrieg

O'Morris I understand you want to limit immigration into Ireland and that part of the Libertas policy you are fine with.

But what about the benefits/taxation issue.

Libertas are suggesting that benefits be extended to irish citizens living/working abroad in other EU countries, the sheer cost of operating such a system so that it doesnt get abused by false claims is alone imense and the cost of such a system is going to be quite a dent in the irish economy (and all other EU states too)

But they didnt explain how will taxation will work? Will the home state tax the migrant workers or will they be taxed by the state they are working in?

If the state they are working in gets to tax them, then why in the name of all that is sane does the home state have to pay benefits? If it is the home state that will tax them, then again the sheer cost of insuring such a system will work will again be huge.


THe policy they are suggesting DOES NOT WORK!

View

Were Libertas' proposal adopted, it could mean that other EU Governments could require Irish citizens living in their states to have Libertas' "Blue Cards". This would mean that an Irish citizen who loses their job could find themselves being denied dole where they live and, in effect, forced to return to Ireland.

Now maybe the electorate would be happy to see that apply to Irish citizens living in, let's say, Germany or Spain, but what about the UK? Do we want to see a situation where an Irish citizen born and breed in NI could be forced to move to the RoI should a future UK Government decide to introduce a Libertas-style "Blue Card" scheme in the UK?

turgon

Guys debate all you want, as is evident by the fact this thread was started there are people like the O'Morris who cant see beyond their own noses and once they see a proposal like "less immigration and no dole for Easterners" they jump on it without even thinking about the realities.

ionix5891

turgon wrote: »

Guys debate all you want, as is evident by the fact this thread was started there are people like the O'Morris who cant see beyond their own noses and once they see a proposal like "less immigration and no dole for Easterners" they jump on it without even thinking about the realities.

I confronted O'Morris on immigration issues before, i cant understand how can anyone excuse this latest Libertas stunt

O'Morris

Steviemak wrote:

I get the impression you are not open to debate on any issue re Libertas

I'm very open to debate on any of Libertas's policies.

Steviemak wrote:

which is disappointing considering their proposals do merit some serious debate.

I agree, I think they do merit serious debate. I think immigration policy in general merits serious debate. It's an issue that has been ignored by our politicians for far too long.

Steviemak wrote:

O'Morris, you seem happy with the Libertas agenda - can you explain how the blue card system will work in border areas and what effect this will have on employment, trade etc?

I hope it won't work in border areas. As a united Irelander I wouldn't be happy with any measure that would impede the free movement of people between the two parts of Ireland. As a unionist I don't want to see anything that would impede the free movement of people between Ireland and Britain either. If a blue card system is introduced in the EU I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.

Steviemak wrote:

I think the you'll find that the level of immigration in this country has reduced to minuscule levels over the last few months.

I have yet to see any evidence that this is the case. If you look at this you'll see that 29,690 PPS numbers have been issued to non-Irish people in the first four months of the year. If immigration continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see well over 80,000 new PPS numbers being handed out. This is just far too high for a country with our size population. When you factor in the differences in population it would be equivalent to Britain taking in more than 890,000 people a year. Even though we're in the depth of a serious recession we're still on track to take in far more people than Britain has ever taken in during any one year.

We're nowhere close to minuscule levels of immigration in this country.

is_that_so wrote:

He wrongfully assumed that we would vote for the Libertas vision which up until a few weeks ago was nothing more than Lisbon bad, EU bad. Now they're on about jobs , leadership, old people, immigration and God knows what.

You're right, Libertas are desperate for power and they'll do whatever it takes to get their candidates elected. Now that it's obvious that their original strategy isn't working they're beginning to focus on issues that they know people are more concerned about. As Caroline Simmons mentioned on the Last Word interview, Immigration is high on the list of things that people are concerned about. I think there are a huge number of votes to be gained by standing and pointing out the problems that the elephant in room is causing us.

is_that_so wrote:

Yeah, but Ganley doesn't appeal to them at all. He's on the right eh lunatic fringe. Any self-respecting unemployed person

Self-respecting unemployed people? If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.

is_that_so wrote:

You also assume that this great army could be bothered to vote.

They have plenty of time on their hands.

BlitzKrieg wrote:

But what about the benefits/taxation issue.

I don't agree with that part of their policy. I think each country should be responsible for the welfare of the people within its jurisdiction (with its own citizens treated as a higher priority than non-citizens) but I don't think they should be forced to support their citizens who are unemployed in other countries.

To help ease the welfare burden and to prevent the problem of welfare tourism I would prefer is we focused on making it more difficult for foreigners to get the dole in this country. I would like to see us increase the amount of time before which they are eligible for welfare. I think we should increase it from 2 years to 4 years.

BlitzKrieg wrote:

THe policy they are suggesting DOES NOT WORK!

The benefits part of the policy probably doesn't work. I think the blue card system is worth considering though. Continuing on with our current immmigration policy is just not an option as far as I'm concerned.

View wrote:

Now maybe the electorate would be happy to see that apply to Irish citizens living in, let's say, Germany or Spain, but what about the UK?

The free-movement of people between Ireland and Britain pre-dates the EU and so I would hope that we could work out a separate agreement with Britain to continue on with the current setup.

P. Breathnach

O'Morris wrote: »

I hope it won't work in border areas. As a united Irelander I wouldn't be happy with any measure that would impede the free movement of people between the two parts of Ireland. As a unionist I don't want to see anything that would impede the free movement of people between Ireland and Britain either. If a blue card system is introduced in the EU I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.

Ah. Selective xenophobia.

Self-respecting unemployed people? If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.

That is a particularly nasty sentiment.

turgon

So O'Morris wants a blue card scheme applied to people he doesn't want moving and not applied to places he might possibly want to work.

Completely hypocritical imo.

Steviemak

O'Morris wrote: »

If you look at this you'll see that 29,690 PPS numbers have been issued to non-Irish people in the first four months of the year. If immigration continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see well over 80,000 new PPS numbers being handed out.

Do you have any idea of the numbers that have left?? Net migration is the issue here.

According to the PPS only 10K were for the new EU states (with 5K of that being Poland). A good chunk of this would be babies born to these residents - future workers who will drive this country forward. A young workforce is a huge asset to any country.

Mr Benevolent

If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.

This, along with certain other attitudes from the Libertas camp (including among other things the concept of a Europe-wide party), makes me very, very worried for the future of the EU with Libertas anywhere near the reigns of power. I'd happily trust Brian Cowen to run the country then trust Declan Ganley with so much as a piece of paper, and I hate FF, FG, Labour and all the other parties.

I'm also very wary of the way Libertas rages about immigration when they know that it's not up to member states to control immigration. Ireland joined the EU to open its borders and encourage free trade. The Irish government cannot restrict that in any way, shape or form while in the EU. The logical conclusion is that

a) If in power, Libertas would cut Ireland's ties with the EU, and
b) Libertas is anti-EU, contrary to Ganley's proclamations about encouraging greater EU transparency.

Libertas's policies stink of the same sh!t that was last dug up in the 1930s. Xenophobia and mistruths.

I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.

That's just illogical.

Hitman Actual

O'Morris wrote: »

Self-respecting unemployed people? If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.

Wow. That's rich coming from someone whose attitude is one of 'them there foreigners coming over here stealing our jobs'. You haven't done yourself any favours with that comment.

BlitzKrieg

The benefits part of the policy probably doesn't work. I think the blue card system is worth considering though. Continuing on with our current immmigration policy is just not an option as far as I'm concerned.

Ok so you like every other sane person in the world does not agree with the libertas policy. If it was broken down to 3 elements

1. Restrict migration into Ireland from EU states
2. Restrict migration from Ireland to EU states (inc. UK)
3. Redesign welfare/tax

You agree with only 1 out of 3 so really I cannot fanthom how you can vote for a party advocating a policy

Personnally I have not seen any issue with immigration, but my field of work would not be an area that would get alot of contest from it, so I cannot really comment on the issue beyond my own numerous positive experinces teaching volunteers and students from states within the EU and outside it.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

If a blue card system is introduced in the EU I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.

Considering Britons represent the largest immigrant group in this country, I would have thought that restricting migration from the UK would have been top of your list of priorities, given your (apparent) concern for unemployed people (a concern which is distinctly lacking in certain comments).

O'Morris wrote: »

If you look at this you'll see that 29,690 PPS numbers have been issued to non-Irish people in the first four months of the year. If immigration continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see well over 80,000 new PPS numbers being handed out.

Still standing by the PPS numbers issued equals number of immigrants received, eh? So does that mean that 30,167 Irish people migrated to this country in the first four months of this year?

O'Morris wrote: »

I think each country should be responsible for the welfare of the people within its jurisdiction (with its own citizens treated as a higher priority than non-citizens) but I don't think they should be forced to support their citizens who are unemployed in other countries.

Well that’s convenient, isn’t it? We shouldn’t be terribly concerned about looking after non-Irish citizens living in Ireland, but them foreigners better be taking care of our lads abroad, because we ain’t doing it.

Our man in Havana

Confab wrote: »

Libertas's policies stink of the same sh!t that was last dug up in the 1930s. Xenophobia and mistruths.

Indeed.

What next a register of all non Irish EU citizens living here including UK citizens?
Roundups and summary deportation of any that don't meet the grade?

The nazis would be proud of Libertas.

IIMII

Libertas was an interesting campaign on the EU debate. People voted against Lisbon partially based on the Libertas campaign, but they did not vote for Libertas as a party.

After the Lisbon campaign, Ganley legged it straight of to the Conservatives and Eurosceptics playing the big man, and over-playing his hand.

Turning Libertas into a party showed a lack of understanding on the part of Ganley as to how Irish electorate thinks.

Libertas won't catch on, and it's irrevant what they say. H emay have become a listened to voice on the issue of Lisbon, but I don't think he ever emerged as the type of individual we want representing us

FFS his real political links seem to be in Britain, not Ireland.

Scofflaw

IIMII wrote: »

Libertas was an interesting campaign on the EU debate. People voted against Lisbon partially based on the Libertas campaign, but they did not vote for Libertas as a party.

After the Lisbon campaign, Ganley legged it straight of to the Conservatives and Eurosceptics playing the big man, and over-playing his hand.

Turning Libertas into a party showed a lack of understanding on the part of Ganley as to how Irish electorate thinks.

Libertas won't catch on, and it's irrevant what they say. H emay have become a listened to voice on the issue of Lisbon, but I don't think he ever emerged as the type of individual we want representing us

FFS his real political links seem to be in Britain, not Ireland.

The funny thing is, though, that as far as I can make out, standing in the euro elections was the plan all along...call it a 'massive power grab' if you like, since if Libertas were successful they would essentially deliver the European Parliament into Declan Ganley's hands. I can't bring myself to see Libertas' opposition to Lisbon as 'conviction politics' at this stage.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

O'Morris wrote: »

The free-movement of people between Ireland and Britain pre-dates the EU

Yes, because all Irish citizens born before 1948 (when the RoI was declared) were automatically British Commonwealth citizens with the right to live in the UK if they so choose. Indeed, if I recall rightly, even today they still qualify for full British citizenship if they want it.

As such, had the UK tightened up its rules in, let say, the mid-1960's it would at best have ended up banning Irish kids from living there. Since most of these would have been in school here anyway, it would have been a bit pointless as both countries were headed for EU membership (with freedom of movement) at that stage, wouldn't it?

O'Morris wrote: »

and so I would hope that we could work out a separate agreement with Britain to continue on with the current setup.

You'd "hope we could work out a separate agreement"?

Unfortunately for you there is no guarentee that the British Government would even want to consider a separate agreement with Ireland. Unlike in the pre-EU days, very few of us today would qualify as British Commonwealth citizens (or full British citizens), as such there is no reason whatsoever for a British Government to give Ireland preferential treatment.

Indeed, they could save money by introducing Libertas' "Blue Card" and then denying Irish citizens dole payments should they become unemployed etc. The savings for the British tax-payer in NI alone could run to tens or hundred of millions a year.

ionix5891

Bond-007 wrote: »

Indeed.

What next a register of all non Irish EU citizens living here including UK citizens?
Roundups and summary deportation of any that don't meet the grade?

The nazis would be proud of Libertas.

Non-EU people already have to go thru and pay for the INIS ordeal yearly to get their biometric green id cards

Tho i suppose making everyone wear a green star be ....

CiaranC

O'Morris wrote: »

The free-movement of people between Ireland and Britain pre-dates the EU and so I would hope that we could work out a separate agreement with Britain to continue on with the current setup.

Haha, I stopped reading your nonsense there. Maybe we could work out an agreement with the EU thats lets good old Paddy go wherever he wants but keeps those nasty Eastern Europeans out.

As soon as Libertas started with this right-wing nonsense they were dead in the water. Contrary to popular delusion among the BNP-like anti-immigration crowd on Boards, the "silent majority" does not exist. Libertas will go the way of the National Platform - into oblivion. And good riddance.

djpbarry

CiaranC wrote: »

Maybe we could work out an agreement with the EU thats lets good old Paddy go wherever he wants but keeps those nasty Eastern Europeans out.

Oh goodness no. You see, even if we stop all the foreigners getting in, as long as Irish people are still emigrating, then the non-Irish share of the population will increase (provided the rate of "Irish" emigration exceeds the "Irish" birth rate less the "Irish" death rate). Can't be havin' that now, can we? So we has to keep the foreigners out and pen the Irish in. Right O'Morris?

O'Morris

View wrote:

Do you have any idea of the numbers that have left??

I don't.

View wrote:

Net migration is the issue here.

You're right, net migration is the issue. According to wikipedia, net migration into Ireland last year was 14 immigrants per 1000 people.

I'm hoping more foreigners will leave the country this year than will enter it but I'm not very optimistic. As we have both a very generous social welfare system and one of the highest minimum wages in Europe the pull factors drawing the east Europeans to Ireland are still very strong. Even if there are fewer jobs being created, they have still as much right to apply for any jobs that are put on the market.

The reality is that we don't have enough jobs for all of the unemployed and for the newcomers to fill. Our economy needs to get rid of people, not take
more people in. With the state of the nation's finances we just can't afford to support such a massive and growing immigrant population.

View wrote:

According to the PPS only 10K were for the new EU states

Only 10k? Do you know how many jobs have been created in our economy since the start of the year?

View wrote:

A good chunk of this would be babies born to these residents

I find that very hard to believe.

djpbarry wrote:

Considering Britons represent the largest immigrant group in this country

I don't think that's true any longer. The 2006 census is believed to have undercounted the number of eastern Europeans in the country. The census gave a figure of only around 65,000 but according to Connor Lenihan, the actual number of Polish people in the country could be closer to 200,000, a figure which is well above the figure for British people. If true that would mean the Poles are now the biggest ethnic minority in the state.

Even if the census found that British were the biggest immigrant group in the state the actual figure of British would be lower than the figure given because a large number of the people classed as British would be nationalists from the six counties.

djpbarry wrote:

I would have thought that restricting migration from the UK would have been top of your list of priorities,

Part of our country is under British rule and we have a large population of Irish people living and working in Britain. Similarly there is a large population of British people living and working and receiving welfare payments in Ireland. It would be in neither country's interests to restrict movement from one jurisdiction to the other.

The British are our ethnic cousins and we have a shared history which has meant that people have been moving between the two islands for centuries. The same could not be said of our relationship with the countries of eastern Europe.

djpbarry wrote:

given your (apparent) concern for unemployed people (a concern which is distinctly lacking in certain comments).

I have nothing but respect and sympathy for the unemployed in this country and I want us to do everything we can to help them out and help get back into employment. I thought it was obvious that my comment about self-respecting unemployed people was not meant to be taken seriously.

djpbarry wrote:

Still standing by the PPS numbers issued equals number of immigrants received, eh?

I still believe that most of the PPS numbers issued to foreign nationals are being issued to immigrants recently arrived in the country. I'm open to alternative explanations but I just don't find any of the explanations I've read so far very plausible.

djpbarry wrote:

So does that mean that 30,167 Irish people migrated to this country in the first four months of this year?

No, I think most of the 31,008 PPS numbers issued to Irish people were issued to Irish babies born in this country. I don't think the same could be said about the non-national figure because I don't think the foreigners are having that many babies. There are about 3.8 million native Irish people in the 26 counties compared with around 400-430 thousand non-nationals. Considering that the number of PPS numbers issued to both the foreigners and to Irish people from January to April are very nearly the same, if most of the PPS numbers issued to both the Irish and the foreigners are issued to their offspring then that would imply that a population of 400,000 is producing about the same number of babies during a period of 4 months as a population of 3.8 million. I find that very hard to believe especially when you consider that most eastern European countries have a lower birth rate than ours. As the non-national population is only a tenth of the total you would expect them to only produce a tenth of the number of babies as the natives.

CiaranC wrote:

As soon as Libertas started with this right-wing nonsense they were dead in the water.

On the contrary. I think the populist righ-ward slant that the party has taken will lead to huge increase in the number of votes they will receive in the European elections.

CiaranC wrote:

Contrary to popular delusion among the BNP-like anti-immigration crowd on Boards, the "silent majority" does not exist.

There's nothing delusional about it. The polls that have been carried out have shown that the majority of the population share my view that we need to have a more restrictive immigration policy.

djpbarry wrote:

Oh goodness no. You see, even if we stop all the foreigners getting in, as long as Irish people are still emigrating, then the non-Irish share of the population will increase (provided the rate of "Irish" emigration exceeds the "Irish" birth rate less the "Irish" death rate). Can't be havin' that now, can we? So we has to keep the foreigners out and pen the Irish in. Right O'Morris?

That's right djpbarry. I couldn't agree with you more. Making it more difficult for "Irish" people to emigrate to "other countries" might not be an altogether bad thing. If the rate at which "Irish" people are leaving "this country" is higher than the rate at which "foreigners", as you call them, are leaving then that will only compound the problem of our declining share of the population. This is why I find the argument that net emigration will offset the problem of immigration to be completely missing the mark. If most of the people emigrating are Irish while most of the people coming into the country are "foreigners", as you call them, then the problem is being made worse, not better.

The problem with immigration as far as I'm concerned is that it will completely alter the ethnic makeup of our country in the long-term. I don't want to see the percentage of the Irish population made up of indigenous Irish people fall below what it is already. We're already below 90% of the total after less than a decade of immigration. I don't want it to fall any further. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now.

PopeBuckfastXVI

O'Morris wrote: »

The problem with immigration as far as I'm concerned is that it will completely alter the ethnic makeup of our country in the long-term. I don't want to see the percentage of the Irish population made up of indigenous Irish people fall below what it is already. We're already below 90% of the total after less than a decade of immigration. I don't want it to fall any further. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now.

If only there were some way to apply some sort of ethnic cleansing maybe!? :eek:

ionix5891

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

If only there were some way to apply some sort of ethnic cleansing maybe!? :eek:

look how that worked out in Rwanda and the Balkans

funny how O'Morris hijacked the thread from a Libertas's moronic immigration "policy" discussion into a general immigration debate (as he often does whenever the I subject is touched)

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

The British are our ethnic cousins…
…
The problem with immigration as far as I'm concerned is that it will completely alter the ethnic makeup of our country in the long-term.

You know, you could save everyone a whole lot of time by making this your sig; it illustrates quite nicely why arguing with you on anything even remotely related to immigration is utterly pointless.

turgon

O'Morris wrote: »

The British are our ethnic cousins and we have a shared history which has meant that people have been moving between the two islands for centuries. The same could not be said of our relationship with the countries of eastern Europe.

Well considering the Queen of Englands family comes from the Netherlands should England have a free movement agreement with them too?

And considering that the Benelux states and Germany/France are pretty ethnically linked should there be a free movement between those?

And considering that lots of people in Poland are probably descended from Imperialistic Germany (ex Danzig/Gdańsk) should Germany and Poland have free movement?

So someone has to simply go from Poland > Germany > Netherlands > England > Ireland.

Or is my hunch that the blatantly racist "ethnic" card can only be played when it suits you?

O'Morris

I understand that this is a subject that arouses strong reactions in people and so I'm not going to bother pursuing it any further on this thread. I think the silent majority in this country share my views anyway and so I don't see the point in wasting energy to try to persuade a small unrepresentative minority to change their minds. The debate on immigration is over and my side has won.

Getting this thread back on topic, certain parts of Libertas's blue card proposal were badly thought out and they deserve close scrutiny but I have a feeling that they would have probably got the same kind of reaction regardless of how well the policy was thought out. The knee-jerk "playing the race-card" reaction to Libertas's policy proposal is not all that different to the reaction to a proposal by Fine Gael's Leo Veradcar a few months ago when he suggested paying non-nationals on the dole to return home. It's interesting that in both cases the people are attacked more for their supposed racist or xenophobic motives than they than they are for the flaws in their policies. I think it's obvious that anyone who stands up and points out the problems caused by uncontrolled mass immigration will be labeled a racist or a xenophobe.

BlitzKrieg

The debate on immigration is over and my side has won.

Did I miss something?

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

I think Libertas will get a lot of votes out of this.
...
I don't think we can have free-movement of labour in Europe now that Europe includes the eastern European countries.

O'Morris wrote: »

I think there are a huge number of votes to be gained by standing and pointing out the problems that the elephant in room is causing us.

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think that's true any longer.
...
I still believe that most of the PPS numbers issued to foreign nationals are being issued to immigrants recently arrived in the country.
...
No, I think most of the 31,008 PPS numbers issued to Irish people were issued to Irish babies born in this country. I don't think the same could be said about the non-national figure because I don't think the foreigners are having that many babies..
...
I think the populist righ-ward slant that the party has taken will lead to huge increase in the number of votes they will receive in the European elections.

O'Morris wrote: »

I think the silent majority in this country share my views anyway and so I don't see the point in wasting energy to try to persuade a small unrepresentative minority to change their minds.
...
I think it's obvious that anyone who stands up and points out the problems caused by uncontrolled mass immigration will be labeled a racist or a xenophobe.

Hmmm....

An argument heavily reliant on personal thoughts and beliefs and devoid of verifiable facts; where have I seen that before?

nesf

O'Morris wrote: »

I think the silent majority in this country share my views anyway and so I don't see the point in wasting energy to try to persuade a small unrepresentative minority to change their minds. The debate on immigration is over and my side has won.

There's no need to be baiting people with projections of your beliefs on the conveniently silent majority.

sink

Just wanted to point out that the ethnic Irish are predominately ethnic Basques from northern Spain who themselves share lineage with the rest of the Western European settlers who migrated here after the last ice age beginning around 10,000BC, or less than 500 generations (bacteria will go through that number of generations in a few hours). In geological and evolutionary terms that is the blink of an eye. Trying to preserve one ethnic group against the tides of geology and evolution is like trying to stop the earth from spinning. To put it bluntly it's ridiculously stupid and pointless and to create tension and animosity over it is even more so.

nesf

sink wrote: »

Just wanted to point out that the ethnic Irish are predominately ethnic Basques from northern Spain who themselves share lineage with the rest of the Western European settlers who migrated here after the last ice age beginning around 10,000BC, or less than 500 generations (bacteria will go through that number of generations in a few hours).

Not necessarily (from memory), the Irish and the Basques could be the remnants of the pre-Indo-European people who were here before the invasion of Indo-European peoples from the East. It's extremely hard to separate causality back that far.

Though what exactly it's got to do with this thread is beyond me. Nationality is engrained in us pretty much from birth. It's a reality that is far stronger than that of the ancient ties between European bloodlines.

Nightwish

Anyone know why Libertas are using a NI company for their postering? Would they need visas to work down here in the future?

ionix5891

Nightwish wrote: »

Anyone know why Libertas are using a NI company for their postering? Would they need visas to work down here in the future?

while we at it lets pull out of the EU and erect trade barriers and tarrifs

DenMan

Well that's one of their proposals isn't it? To erect and maintain border patrols throughout the European Union. My Mother is pleased with this plan of theirs. We are sailing into the unknown that's for sure.

O'Morris

BlitzKrieg wrote:

Did I miss something?

You've missed a few opinion polls showing that the majority of Irish people would rather we had a more restrictive immigration policy. The last poll I've seen indicates that only 27% of the population think we should continue on with our current policy. As your side is in the minority the onus is on you to bring the majority around to your view, not the other way around.

In this sense I think it's safe to say that Kevin Myers' team has taken a decisive lead.

nesf wrote:

There's no need to be baiting people with projections of your beliefs on the conveniently silent majority.

I'm not projecting my believes on anyone. I'm just alluding to the evidence showing that on immigration most Irish people would share my view that we need a more restrictive immigration policy. Can you point to any opinion poll which has found that most Irish people hold a different view? Because I'm not aware of any.

nesf

O'Morris wrote: »

Can you point to any opinion poll which has found that most Irish people hold a different view? Because I'm not aware of any.

I don't need to, if you want to make the claim that they agree with you you need to provide the poll alluding to such.

CiaranC

O'Morris wrote: »

I understand that this is a subject that arouses strong reactions in people and so I'm not going to bother pursuing it any further on this thread. I think the silent majority in this country share my views anyway and so I don't see the point in wasting energy to try to persuade a small unrepresentative minority to change their minds.

Lol, the famous silent majority.

So how is this silent majority going to manifest such strongly held beliefs politically? Where is the BNP style party here? Is it Libertas? If it is Libertas, I think you are in for a shock when you get the election results friend.