Another false sex abuse case

Dudess

This was on the news and the guy was in tears - it was just heartbreaking.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/cleared-teacher-has-suspension-lifted-1740975.html

It seems men are in a very vulnerable position if they take on a job that involves working with children. In my opinion, paedophilia hysteria has played no small part...

Friday May 15 2009

A special needs teacher who was cleared seven years ago of sexually abusing pupils has been successful in his High Court bid to lift his suspension.

Patsy McGlinchey from Newport in Tipperary was acquitted by a jury in 2002 of sex abuse charges following a 17-day trial at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court.

Despite this he has remained suspended on full pay for almost 12 years and wanted to be reinstated so his good name and reputation could be restored.

He was first suspended in 1997 following Garda and HSE inquiries.

Mr McGlinchey went to the High Court to be reinstated and today the case settled with the parties agreeing that the suspension be lifted but he cannot go back to work pending the outcome of a private inquiry.

Afterwards his wife Dympna said they were relieved.

My name is URL

The law hates men full stop. And you're right about the reason why

admiralofthefleet

cleared 7 years ago and its only getting sorted now :mad:

he deserves every bit of the full pay he received and should sue the family of the "victim" for everything.


until parents start being held 100% accountable, this is gonna keep happening..

AckwelFoley

No comment

Elle Victorine

Ridiculous amount of time to leave off clearing that **** up.

admiralofthefleet

snyper wrote: »

No comment

see you over the other side;)

IvySlayer

His wifes name is Dympna

Anyway, yes, when it comes to children/parenting there's a lot of sexism. Men don't have the same rights to their children as women do. The worst is when women stop dads seeing there child and then the state paying ends up paying for both of them...

And men who wants to go into childcare/teaching primary schools are accused of being paedophies. It's wrong.

Black Dog

I have been in the position of being falsely accused, investigated and completely cleared. Dreadful experience involving investigation by Board of Management, referral to Health Board, Gardai, Bishop, Dept of Ed. All found that it was completely unfounded and that main "witness" had lied - get this: I can't do a thing about this as "qualified privilege" applies. It means that if someone gives "information" in the course of an investigation it is considered to have been given in good faith unless bad faith can be proved and this is impossible to do. I kept working after all of this as I felt that if I left it would be viewed as showing guilt. At this stage my health has given out and my doctors have advised that I quit.

The poor man has my understanding and sympathy

phasers

This is why only women should really be teachers.

*Hides*

Stercus Accidit

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Come here te me kiddies 'til I give ye a fiddle...

not all children want to learn music..

Shacklebolt

phasers wrote: »

This is why only women should really be teachers.

*Hides*

Too hormonal... I don't trust anything that bleeds for a week and doesnt die.

*Joins you in hiding-place*

My name is URL

Black Dog wrote: »

I have been in the position of being falsely accused, investigated and completely cleared. Dreadful experience involving investigation by Board of Management, referral to Health Board, Gardai, Bishop, Dept of Ed. All found that it was completely unfounded and that main "witness" had lied - get this: I can't do a thing about this as "qualified privilege" applies. It means that if someone gives "information" in the course of an investigation it is considered to have been given in good faith unless bad faith can be proved and this is impossible to do. I kept working after all of this as I felt that if I left it would be viewed as showing guilt. At this stage my health has given out and my doctors have advised that I quit.

The poor man has my understanding and sympathy

Are there any compensations for being falsely debased? Seems there should be, even if the original witness is cleared of any wrong doing

Black Dog

Absolutely no redress whatsoever and, as you know, mud sticks so, although the accusations were false and proven to be false my name was taken. Parents took their children from the school, for example.

The_Minister

Expected tbh.

If most rapes reported by adults are false, I'm not sure why we should expect greater honesty from special needs children.

Still, we have to investigate every accusation, and err on the side of caution.


EDIT: Maybe accuracy is a better word then honesty, in the second sentence.

Black Dog

The_Minister wrote: »

Expected tbh.

If most rapes reported by adults are false, I'm not sure why we should expect greater honesty from special needs children.

Still, we have to investigate every accusation, and err on the side of caution.

Minister, Of course you are right that the rights and protection of children have to be put first but the investigation system is flawed when someone can lie and then be protected by the system. It seems very unfair. Certainly, it seemed very unfair to me, left me very hurt etc.

nlgbbbblth

Deleted User wrote: »

he deserves every bit of the full pay he received and should sue the family of the "victim" for everything.


until parents start being held 100% accountable, this is gonna keep happening..

the person who makes the accusations should be held accountable.

The_Minister

Yes, but what happens if your cleared, and then thee years later you turn out to have been raping children all along?
The media and the Opposition would have a field day, so the government must be extremely cautious.
Also, since very often these crimes are not reported, due to the fact that they take place against children, sometimes its better for someone not to be allowed back to work, even if they are cleared, because it could well be the case that there simply was not enough evidence, but there was evidence.

I'm not commenting on your particular situation, but just because someone is cleared does not mean that they can be left alone with children, although, of course, an accusation should not mean that someone automatically loses their job.


As to penalising liers, the traditional arguements of discouraging reporting stand.

Dennis the Stone

Dudess wrote: »

It seems men are in a very vulnerable position if they take on a job that involves working with children. In my opinion, paedophilia hysteria has played no small part...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUkt59vY1Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7bcGyCA-5k

Sully

Acquited means it was neither guilty or not guilty... hardly inspiring.

herya

phasers wrote: »

This is why only women should really be teachers.

*Hides*

Haven't you heard about female teachers still abusers? Really?

Earthhorse

Black Dog wrote: »

I have been in the position of being falsely accused, investigated and completely cleared. Dreadful experience involving investigation by Board of Management, referral to Health Board, Gardai, Bishop, Dept of Ed. All found that it was completely unfounded and that main "witness" had lied - get this: I can't do a thing about this as "qualified privilege" applies. It means that if someone gives "information" in the course of an investigation it is considered to have been given in good faith unless bad faith can be proved and this is impossible to do. I kept working after all of this as I felt that if I left it would be viewed as showing guilt. At this stage my health has given out and my doctors have advised that I quit.

The poor man has my understanding and sympathy

Very sorry to hear you went through that. That's awful.

The_Minister wrote: »

If most rapes reported by adults are false, I'm not sure why we should expect greater honesty from special needs children.

Most rapes reported by adults aren't false.

amacachi

herya wrote: »

Haven't you heard about female teachers still abusers? Really?

But they don't have a willy, so the crime is obviously less in the press's eyes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

You don't need a willy to abuse.

I would like to know what happens to the parties making the false accusations, though.

herya

The_Minister wrote: »

If most rapes reported by adults are false, I'm not sure why we should expect greater honesty from special needs children.

There is a letter in today's Indo explaining what "false" means here (from Rape Crisis Centre). It says that "false" does not imply that the alleged victim lied, but that the accusation was put forward in good faith by other individuals, they give example of parents accusing somebody of raping their child when in fact it didn't happen. They say that they had no case of a "victim" lying - "false" means not confirmed in the course of investigation due to confusion, misinformation etc of the person who initiated it.

Dr Jan Jordan is a senior lecturer in criminology. In 2004 she examined cases of rape that the complainant said were false. Certain notable features emerge in her data. Firstly, no case was malicious or vengeful. Indeed, "most of the cases studied were more likely to arise from wrongful interpretations by third parties, which were most speedily resolved by the investigating officers".

This, for example, included situations where a concerned parent assumed an assault to have taken place, when in fact on further examination it had not.

A situation where someone makes a false allegation for malicious reason, without the involvement of a third party, without any pressure from a third party, that did not come to light during an investigation, would be highly exceptional.

As we continue to learn about sexual violence, it is important that we continue to create an environment where children can feel safe to disclose abuse.

False allegations remain uncommon. False allegations which result in convictions are highly exceptional.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/kevin-myers-has-his-facts-wrong-1739838.html

The_Minister

Earthhorse wrote: »

Most rapes reported by adults aren't false.

http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html
http://www.americandaily.com/article/5075
http://rapesurvivor.pbworks.com/reporting
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1719

Reasonable statistics range from 20-60%

So, yes they are. Or, at least, there is a good deal of evidence indicating that they are.

The_Minister

herya wrote: »

There is a letter in today's Indo explaining what "false" means here (from Rape Crisis Centre). It says that "false" does not imply that the alleged victim lied, but that the accusation was put forward in good faith by other individuals, they give example of parents accusing somebody of raping their child when in fact it didn't happen. They say that they had no case of a "victim" lying - "false" means not confirmed in the course of investigation due to confusion, misinformation etc of the person who initiated it.

Firstly, I mentioned accuracy in my first post (if you read my edit, you'll see I preferred it to honesty), so I am aware that not all those rape reports are deliberate lies.
However, it is not that every rape report put forward which does not end in conviction is recorded as false, only those cases where an innocent person was accused, and then the accusation withdrawn or found to be baseless (very different from not convicting someone) are recorded as false.
So behind every false rape claim, is an innocent person whose name was tarnished.
If you read the report from I cited above, every woman in it admitted she was lying, and the main reasons were alibi, revenge and attention, not mistake. Malicious reports are well-documented in other jurisdictions, I find it hard to believe that they don't occur here in similar numbers.
EDIT: Indian study over five years gets figure of 18% http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3910217,prtpage-1.cms
Decent blog: http://www.billoblog.com/?p=134
A (nuts) blog which tracks false rape cases: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/

Basically, it does happen, and it happens allot. The percentage you get depends on ow you measure it.

Latchy

At least we now live in a time when accusations of abuse are reported and investigated ,unlike previous decades when neither was .Which made abuse all that more easy for real abusers .

herya

The_Minister wrote: »

So behind every false rape claim, is an innocent person whose name was tarnished.

I agree with you, and it should be fought with. These American stories are horrendous.

But you seem to imply (basing it on American statistics) that most of rape claims are false which is not confirmed by the Irish report I quoted. Plus even "false" Irish cases are not attributed to deliberate lies. I'd hazard a guess that "let's report the b*** for rape" culture might be more prevalent in the US and does not necessarily translate to Ireland.

These false accusation cases are bad enough as they are. Let's not create urban myths.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

herya wrote: »

I agree with you, and it should be fought with. These American stories are horrendous.

But you seem to imply (basing it on American statistics) that most of rape claims are false which is not confirmed by the Irish report I quoted. Plus even "false" Irish cases are not attributed to deliberate lies. I'd hazard a guess that "let's report the b*** for rape" culture might be more prevalent in the US and does not necessarily translate to Ireland.

These false accusation cases are bad enough as they are. Let's not create urban myths.

The urban Myth hysteria has been around for nearly a decade now, God bless the tabloids. And what they do in America, will be done around the world in a decade or so.

The_Minister

herya wrote: »

I agree with you, and it should be fought with. These American stories are horrendous.

But you seem to imply (basing it on American statistics) that most of rape claims are false which is not confirmed by the Irish report I quoted. Plus even "false" Irish cases are not attributed to deliberate lies. I'd hazard a guess that "let's report the b*** for rape" culture might be more prevalent in the US and does not necessarily translate to Ireland.

These false accusation cases are bad enough as they are. Let's not create urban myths.

The thing is, I don't trust the rape crisis centre.
They do good work, and they mean well, but they are still a bunch of uber-feminists. The report that they cited is very similar to the ones that American feminists cite, which claim the US's false rape claim statistics are >2%, by messing with figures, moving goalposts, and, in one case I noticed, lying about another study. One of those studies was written by a woman who defined rape as "the process by which all men intimidate all women on a continuing basis". I've seen too many of those studies to believe them without going over them with a fine-toothed comb.
You can get a false reporting figure of zero if every withdrawn accusation is labeled a mistake.

I agree that we probably don't have the same rates as America, but I find it impossible to believe that not one woman used the ultimate weapon against a man, that not one woman was that low even in a fit of pique.

herya

The_Minister wrote: »

They do good work, and they mean well, but they are still a bunch of uber-feminists. The report that they cited is very similar to the ones that American feminists cite, which claim the US's false rape claim statistics are >2%, by messing with figures, moving goalposts, and, in one case I noticed, lying about another study. One of those studies was written by a woman who defined rape as "the process by which all men intimidate all women on a continuing basis". I've seen too many of those studies to believe them without going over them with a fine-toothed comb.

You might be right about their attitude (I guess - no relation to them), but I also find it unlikely that they would be able to cover up 50% of "deliberate lie" accusations in Ireland. Rape cases are reported in the press every day, I can recall reading about a single case when the woman lied on purpose.

Therefore I feel that bringing this particular figure up here is a disservice to real rape victims here in Ireland who will not be treated seriously as "one in two must be lying". If there are any well grounded reports confirming this alarming figure - fair game.

nacho libre

the discussion about these issues on the Vincent Browne show last night was frightening- frightening if the studies are actually accurate. if so it means there are many people around the country that are held in high regard that reallly shouldn't be.

The_Minister

nacho libre wrote: »

the discussion about these issues on the Vincent Browne show last night was frightening- frightening if the studies are actually accurate. if so it means there are many people around the country that are held in high regard that reallly shouldn't be.

Can you elaborate? Is the show online?

Earthhorse

The_Minister wrote: »

Reasonable statistics range from 20-60%

From what I can see, reasonable statistics range from 8 to 60%. You have one study saying 60% and one more saying 50. The majority seem to measure it somewhere between 8 and 20. By no stretch of the imagination is that most.

The_Minister wrote: »

So, yes they are. Or, at least, there is a good deal of evidence indicating that they are.

So, no they aren't. And given that there are only a few studies available and that some of them are measuring a very small sample size there isn't a good deal of evidence indicating they are; but there is some evidence to suggest it is higher than the normally quoted 2%.

Terry

Latchy wrote: »

At least we now live in a time when accusations of abuse are reported and investigated ,unlike previous decades when neither was .Which made abuse all that more easy for real abusers .

I live in an estate with 106 houses.
I know of 8 men (off the top of my head) who sexually abused their children in this estate.
4 of them are dead now, one just got out of jail and another is still there.
The 4 who are dead never did any time, nor did one who abused all of his kids and is still around and spends (supervised) time with his grandchildren.

One of the remaining legacies of old Ireland is that of inherent child sex abuse.

My own father would have been 75 today had he not been killed. He saved one child from being sexually abused by her father. He also saved the other 7 from further abuse. He was around too late to step in at the start of it.
It wasn't him who told me this. It was the victims themselves.

herya

Kudos to your late father, Terry.

Latchy

Terry wrote: »

4 of them are dead now, one just got out of jail and another is still there.
The 4 who are dead never did any time, nor did one who abused all of his kids and is still around and spends (supervised) time with his grandchildren.

One of the remaining legacies of old Ireland is that of inherent child sex abuse

.

Yes ,that's the typ scenario what I had in mind, in my post .And fair dues to your father for stepping in doing the right thing ,when many would not have had the courage .

nacho libre

The_Minister wrote: »

Can you elaborate? Is the show online?

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=nightlynewswithvincentbrowne

herya

The_Minister wrote: »

Can you elaborate? Is the show online?

There's an expert (UCD criminologist) saying that in 100 cases examined only 8% end up with conviction (only 16% are prosecuted at all). Remainining cases are not prosecuted - he says in 44 cases the evidence was not strong enough to prosecute, in 44 cases victims withdrew. 9 cases were considered false by the Gardai, i.e. no crime has taken place. Also in some cases the suspect was not identified.

The numbers not quite add up I think, I might see it once again.

Among the convictions the percentage of "stranger rapes" was higher than in all the cases (my guess - rape by a person known to the victim had a better chance of being withdrawn, or maybe they are more likely to be "word against word" cases?), and convicted rapists often had previous record or issued warnings. Looks like it's hard to convict a first time rapist or someone who knew the victim beforehand.

They say that only 8% of victims report the rape.

Some horrendous statistics on child abuse - 10% of women and 3% of men admit to having been sexually abused. 6% as girls, 6% as adult women.

Rape Crisis Centre representative says that the number of reported rapes and abuse cases goes up, the number of convictions goes down. They attribute it mostly to the length of the process which makes the victims withdraw from the proceedings.

They say that child rapists are 20% family members, 20% neighbours, 20% figures of authority (teachers etc), 20% strangers (where's the last 20%?). In adults 40% are strangers.

Dudess

Black Dog wrote: »

I have been in the position of being falsely accused, investigated and completely cleared. Dreadful experience involving investigation by Board of Management, referral to Health Board, Gardai, Bishop, Dept of Ed. All found that it was completely unfounded and that main "witness" had lied - get this: I can't do a thing about this as "qualified privilege" applies. It means that if someone gives "information" in the course of an investigation it is considered to have been given in good faith unless bad faith can be proved and this is impossible to do. I kept working after all of this as I felt that if I left it would be viewed as showing guilt. At this stage my health has given out and my doctors have advised that I quit.

The poor man has my understanding and sympathy

Black Dog wrote: »

Absolutely no redress whatsoever and, as you know, mud sticks so, although the accusations were false and proven to be false my name was taken. Parents took their children from the school, for example.

That's horrendous, Black Dog. I'm so sorry to read that. Yes, mud does stick - some people are just so anxious to believe the worst in others. You know the types - the "no smoke without fire" crowd...

ScumLord

It's alarming but parents make the worst citizens.

Jesus Wept

Terry wrote: »

One of the remaining legacies of old Ireland is that of inherent child sex abuse.

One of the remaining legacies of old Ireland life is that of inherent child sex abuse.

yermandan

I'm nearly finished my Social-Care training and they just cant teach you this type of stuff in my 'Applied' course. I have to say I am gonna have to be very careful what area I choose to specialize in because there is absolutely no protection out there for men who are falsely accused. The safeguards are there alright, i.e. you know that you cant be the only staff member with a client. But the reality is often much different, especially with staff shortages etc

ScumLord

yermandan wrote: »

I'm nearly finished my Social-Care training and they just cant teach you this type of stuff in my 'Applied' course. I have to say I am gonna have to be very careful what area I choose to specialize in because there is absolutely no protection out there for men who are falsely accused. The safeguards are there alright, i.e. you know that you cant be the only staff member with a client. But the reality is often much different, especially with staff shortages etc

The reality is once you have your own child you will kill anyone with even the the slightest hint of child hurtingness ( I can't think of real words anymore) but you get my drift.

Jesus Wept

yermandan wrote: »

The safeguards are there alright, i.e. you know that you cant be the only staff member with a client. But the reality is often much different, especially with staff shortages etc

A local residential care facility for people with profound disabilities has cut it's nightly staff from two down to just one, there are six service users in the house.

it's fúcking crazy, and a shítty mess waiting to happen.

Black Dog

Referring back to earlier posts - I had posted that I had been falsely accused, investigated and cleared.

A comment was made that even is someone is cleared s/he should still not be left alone with children. I have been a primary school principal for nearly 30 years - a bit before the present awareness of child protection issues - and at that stage I put a rule in place in the school that no teacher should ever be alone with a child and no child was allowed go alone anywhere in the school. People, including staff, thought I was a nutcase but I stuck to my guns and it became accepted practice. When general awareness of the dangers to children were more recognised we, in the school, were already putting best practice into operation.

This school was a relatively small rural one. It would shock people to realise the level of child abuse which exists - I hasten to add that I don't mean within the school but in the home. Over the years I have dealt with - referred to Gardai and Health Board - some alarming cases, cases which would leave you wondering was there any goodness in human nature at all and wonder how parents could inflict such suffering on their children. It is a horribly disturbing experience.

yermandan

The-Rigger wrote: »

A local residential care facility for people with profound disabilities has cut it's nightly staff from two down to just one, there are six service users in the house.

it's fúcking crazy, and a shítty mess waiting to happen.

Thats exactly the situation where someone would not have any protection, although with profound disability, the chances that a person can have coherant communication skills are limited. But nonetheless its a sign of how its all going.

Terry, your Dad did great things for your community and if I feel proud of him after reading your post, I cant imagine how proud of him you are.

Black Dog

Dudess wrote: »

That's horrendous, Black Dog. I'm so sorry to read that. Yes, mud does stick - some people are just so anxious to believe the worst in others. You know the types - the "no smoke without fire" crowd...

Dudess,

I understand this reaction from parents and think it is a perfectly normal reaction. Put yourself in the position: a teacher has been accused of behaving inappropriately with a child. There is an investigation and the teacher is cleared. Now, you, if you are a parent of a child in that school, are going to say to yourself, "Maybe s/he is innocent, s/he probably is but I'm not taking any risks with my child so I'm going to take him/her out of that school" It's a perfectly normal parental reaction.

b28

Never be surprised if people dont want to help/work with children if they aren't family members, **** like this is really what can happen!
It's sad and I hate people who make false accusations, this area can ruin a persons life!

yermandan

Black Dog wrote: »

Dudess,

I understand this reaction from parents and think it is a perfectly normal reaction. Put yourself in the position: a teacher has been accused of behaving inappropriately with a child. There is an investigation and the teacher is cleared. Now, you, if you are a parent of a child in that school, are going to say to yourself, "Maybe s/he is innocent, s/he probably is but I'm not taking any risks with my child so I'm going to take him/her out of that school" It's a perfectly normal parental reaction.

There is no argument against this point. I'm not sure I know anyone that would disagree/do anything different:(