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Abortion

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    #662
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    That was your choice though, for others in your situation choosing to keep the baby might not be the right choice for them. Nobody should be forced into that.

    Indeed. I agree with you in the sense that adoption is also avaliable, not that it is a valid justification for death.


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    #663
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    bronte wrote: »
    You know it's one thing to put forward your points and reasons for being pro life.
    It's another to be blatantly rude as you have in the above post and come out with something as condescending as that.
    How very dare you accuse the pro-choice side of lacking in life experience.
    You know nothing about each individual person.

    He said young people mainly made up the choice lobby, are we to believe younger people have more life experience than someone older?
    How many of these pro-choice people were faced with a pregnancy to really know where they stand?
    You don't know and there was no need for your rudeness towards me.


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    #664
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    bronte wrote: »
    You know it's one thing to put forward your points and reasons for being pro life.
    It's another to be blatantly rude as you have in the above post and come out with something as condescending as that.
    How very dare you accuse the pro-choice side of lacking in life experience.
    You know nothing about each individual person.

    And this post isn't rude?


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    #665
    bronte
    Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    Min wrote: »
    He said young people mainly made up the choice lobby, are we to believe younger people have more life experience than someone older?
    How many of these pro-choice people were faced with a pregnancy to really know where they stand?
    You don't know and there was no need for your rudeness towards me.



    A lot of them know perfectly well where they stand.
    He said a lot of young people make up the pro-choice lobby.

    You said:
    Min wrote: »

    Choice lobby made up mainly of young people you say - lacking life experience maybe and knowing no better.....

    Which is incredibly condescending.
    Please don't decide what other people feel just to suit yourself.


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    #666
    bronte
    Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    And this post isn't rude?

    That was polite compared to the content of her post.


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    #667
    sarahjayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭sarahjayne


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed. I agree with you in the sense that adoption is also avaliable, not that it is a valid justification for death.

    Yes i agree that adoption is an option and i know its not for everybody. But I know a few people who have had abortions and very much regret it


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    #668
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sarahjayne wrote: »
    Yes i agree that adoption is an option and i know its not for everybody. But I know a few people who have had abortions and very much regret it

    Indeed. I want to thank you for posting in this thread. It's real life experiences like these that give me some form of hope that some people still care about pro-life causes in Ireland, and that it is a realistic path to go down.


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    #669
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    bronte wrote: »
    That was polite compared to the content of her post.

    It is a topic that always gets people angry on both sides, as it is an issue that people feel very strongly about.

    There are most likely people contributing to this thread who have had an abortion, which will make them extremely angry against the people arguing pro-life.

    I've discussed this issue with groups of friends a few times (I have to say I've never been the one who brought the subject up) and the most angry and vehement people are always the ones who have had abortions.

    I don't judge people, and never ever say anything negative to anyone if I've found out they've had an abortion, once its done there's no undoing it.
    I just want people to see it for what it is, people gloss over the facts, it's not going in to get your teeth cleaned, its the killing of a baby.

    One poster on here said how sick it was when it was joked that there should be an option for newly born disabled babies to be killed. I don't understand this thinking at all. That's sick and abortion isn't?
    So many disabled AND healthy babies are killed all the time. How does it make any difference what side of the vagina the baby is on? Just because you can't see it it's okay?


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    #670
    sarahjayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭sarahjayne


    You welcome nice speaking to you Jakkass :)


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    #671
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    How does it make any difference what side of the vagina the baby is on? Just because you can't see it it's okay?

    I think you've hit the nail on the head with this statement midlandmissus. You're absolutely right when you say 'just because you can't see it it's okay?'


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    #672
    Fugly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Fugly


    To the OP, you say your GF agrees with you and would want an abortion, however she may change her mind and ultimately it will be her decision.

    I know there are some who will disagree that the father should have an equal say, I agree to a degree however when push comes to shove, you can't force her to abort or to carry it.

    I'm not really looking to get into a long debate about abortion, however I may as well add my experience.

    I use protection and would never simply rely on an abortion as a standard method of contraceptive. I never intend to have children myself and always believed if I did get pregnant I would give it up for adoption. I have always been pro-choice.

    I did become pregnant and decided on a termination. I took the matter very seriously and I have never regreted it. I know this is not true for all women who have one, however, it like all decisions will be regreted by some. To say every woman who has one will never regret it is ridiculous, however to claim every woman who has one will regret it is as equally ridiculous.


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    #673
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    What he said makes sense to me.

    I didn't have sex until I was in my 20's when I was in a really good relationship, where I knew I could handle a baby if it happened. I would have been way too scared of getting pregnant as a teenager to have sex.

    Shock news: Sex makes babies, that is its primary function, you can try to stop it with contraception, but no method is fool proof.

    If you're going to do it, you should face up to the resposibility that it could bring, instead of using the killing of a human life as a back up option.

    I didn't say it didn't make sense, I said it wasn't realistic.

    I'm scared of getting pregnant, but the way I face up to that responsibility is by using contraception and making sure that both of us in the relationship know what's gonna happen if I do get pregnant.


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    #674
    almostnever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭almostnever


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Why does that matter? It's still a living, growing human being whether it currently needs another living being to survive or not. siamese twins often can't survive separately but that doesn't mean they don't have rights. Seems to me that issue is only raised because it allows people to justify abortion



    Sorry JC 2K3 but that's just wrong. There is plenty of reason to suggest that a sperm cannot be considered a person. That life begins at conception is so incredibly obviously true that the only reason there is even debate on this topic is that people don't want it to be the case so they can justify abortion.

    If you want to argue that the life doesn't have rights because it's not conscious yet or whatever you can do that, that is a matter of opinion, but arguing that life doesn't begin at conception is quite simply wrong

    *makes say what face*
    Um,Muslims believe that the soul enters the foetus at the 120 day stage. After this point,the religion doesn't sanction abortion as it is perceived that at this stage,the foetus has become human. It is "where life begins",according to this religion. So,what,their beliefs are totally wrong?


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    #675
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    almostnever wrote: »
    *makes say what face*
    Um,Muslims believe that the soul enters the foetus at the 120 day stage. After this point,the religion doesn't sanction abortion as it is perceived that at this stage,the foetus has become human. It is "where life begins",according to this religion. So,what,their beliefs are totally wrong?

    Muslims differ over this issue I'm fairly sure. In the Islamic world if you look at a map of the legality of abortion, they only permit abortion when the mothers life is in danger. In Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and Iran these judgements are based on Sharia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AbortionLawsMap-NoLegend.png

    As for their beliefs being wrong, I would have no difficulty in saying that many Islamic beliefs are wrong in my opinion. Likewise an atheist would say that many Christian beliefs are wrong in their opinion.

    We can say why abortions are wrong without involving the soul rather easily.


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    #676
    almostnever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭almostnever


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Muslims differ over this issue I'm fairly sure. In the Islamic world if you look at a map of the legality of abortion, they only permit abortion when the mothers life is in danger. In Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and Iran these judgements are based on Sharia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AbortionLawsMap-NoLegend.png

    True,but the point I was trying to make is that (making a generalisation here) conception is not the beginning of life under Islamic traditions. And the fact that there is deviation within that group with regards to abortion just shows that the beginning of life is not necessarily a factual thing,and isn't brought up purely to justify abortions.

    Edit: in relation to the validity of conflicting religious beliefs,I am personally an atheist and yes,I do believe that some religious beliefs are not right. However,as I'm sure you will agree that is my opinion only and shouldn't be presented as fact. Just because I don't think Jesus was the Son of God doesn't by any means indicate that he wasn't,and I try to respect the opinions and beliefs of others that may be crucial for them in determining the right course of action in any situation.


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    #677
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    almostnever wrote: »
    True,but the point I was trying to make is that (making a generalisation here) conception is not the beginning of life under Islamic traditions. And the fact that there is deviation within that group with regards to abortion just shows that the beginning of life is not necessarily a factual thing,and isn't brought up purely to justify abortions.

    It depends what version of Islam you are discussing. Different sects of Islam use different Hadith. As far as I know there is no mention of the 120 days thing in the Qur'an. So, different sects use different hadith which means that there is a huge amount of variance between the different sects. This makes it confusing. Unlike the Biblical text where it is by and large in common between denominations, the Hadith are not in common.

    As for the deviation within that group. It is also important to realise that the hadith amongst other things were written in an age before we knew about embryology. Thomas Aquinas also wrote about embryology and what stage the soul entered the body, now liberal advocates use his writings to justify abortion. However, due to embryology we know that at conception, the embryo is a biological entity which differs biologically to the mother (as it has inherited chromosones from the father) making it biologically distinct, I.E a separate life. We now know that is the point where life begins to grow. I have an inkling that many Muslims must have discerned this by now, otherwise the Islamic law would be different.
    almostnever wrote: »
    Edit: in relation to the validity of conflicting religious beliefs,I am personally an atheist and yes,I do believe that some religious beliefs are not right. However,as I'm sure you will agree that is my opinion only and shouldn't be presented as fact. Just because I don't think Jesus was the Son of God doesn't by any means indicate that he wasn't,and I try to respect the opinions and beliefs of others that may be crucial for them in determining the right course of action in any situation.

    That's fine, but as far as I know in practice Islamic belief is very much pro-life rather than pro-choice. I don't think most Muslims would advocate the type of abortion that people have justified in Western countries.

    I hope some of the Muslims on boards can answer this and clear up some of this.


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    #678
    sharms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭sharms


    im 21......... if i got pregnant ..it wud be my own stupidity but still my decision as to what to do... my body...my decision..i remember we used to have these discussions in religion in 6th year and der wer 2 prudes hu probably still have never had sex..but they wud literally beat u up if they thought u wud have an abortion... it's like..none of your business pal!! it is weird tho.. when i read ur post i thought yea fair enough but then i thought...no the girl can say what she would do... you ..not so much!!!!


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    #679
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    It is a topic that always gets people angry on both sides, as it is an issue that people feel very strongly about.

    There are most likely people contributing to this thread who have had an abortion, which will make them extremely angry against the people arguing pro-life.

    I've discussed this issue with groups of friends a few times (I have to say I've never been the one who brought the subject up) and the most angry and vehement people are always the ones who have had abortions.

    I don't judge people, and never ever say anything negative to anyone if I've found out they've had an abortion, once its done there's no undoing it.
    I just want people to see it for what it is, people gloss over the facts, it's not going in to get your teeth cleaned, its the killing of a baby.

    One poster on here said how sick it was when it was joked that there should be an option for newly born disabled babies to be killed. I don't understand this thinking at all. That's sick and abortion isn't?
    So many disabled AND healthy babies are killed all the time. How does it make any difference what side of the vagina the baby is on? Just because you can't see it it's okay?
    Why is it ok to kill sperm?

    etc.

    *sigh....


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    #680
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sharms wrote: »
    im 21......... if i got pregnant ..it wud be my own stupidity but still my decision as to what to do... my body...my decision..

    If it were just your body. I might agree with you. However in reality there is your body, and the body of another human life involved in this.
    sharms wrote: »
    i remember we used to have these discussions in religion in 6th year and der wer 2 prudes hu probably still have never had sex..

    Oh no :eek:

    I personally think given the amount of threads about pregnancy scares in the PI section that a lot of people would benefit greatly if they waited until marriage.
    sharms wrote: »
    but they wud literally beat u up if they thought u wud have an abortion... it's like..none of your business pal!!

    This is starting to sound a lot more like fiction than reality.
    sharms wrote: »
    it is weird tho.. when i read ur post i thought yea fair enough but then i thought...no the girl can say what she would do... you ..not so much!!!!

    Again if it was just their body, I would have no problem. However due to the fact that it is killing another life, I don't think that cuts it in terms of a justification.


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    #681
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Why is it ok to kill sperm?

    etc.

    *sigh....

    You know and I know you are being obtuse. This has been answered for you several times, infact probably on this thread.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60252002&postcount=118


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    #682
    DeCoR18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 403 ✭✭DeCoR18


    The most amazing thing a woman can do with her life is to give birth and raise children, people who advocate and go through with robbing themselves of that are living in a world I want nothing to do with.

    The results of the poll are shockingly disgusting.


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    #683
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    DeCoR18 wrote: »
    The most amazing thing a woman can do with her life is to give birth and raise children, people who advocate and go through with robbing themselves of that are living in a world I want nothing to do with.

    That's ok, you dont have anything to do with it.


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    #684
    DeCoR18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 403 ✭✭DeCoR18


    Malari wrote: »
    That's ok, you dont have anything to do with it.

    I don't have anything to do with their world? Not so, since I believe in certain societal standards I want to force on people :cool:

    Thanks.

    DeCoR.


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    #685
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malari wrote: »
    That's ok, you dont have anything to do with it.

    It's a moral question though. Should we sit aside and let people be unjust to others, or should we attempt to rectify the situation? That's the question that all forms of activists have to decide, not just pro-lifers.


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    #686
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You know and I know you are being obtuse. This has been answered for you several times, infact probably on this thread.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60252002&postcount=118
    The problem is essentially that you think I'm being obtuse and that it's obvious I'm being obtuse, when I'm not.

    The point is that conception is as arbitrary as any other point in development.


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    #687
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    DeCoR18 wrote: »
    I don't have anything to do with their world? Not so, since I believe in certain societal standards I want to force on people :cool:

    Thanks.

    DeCoR.

    Well you said you didn't want anything to do with the world of women who have abortions. You don't. Good luck with the forcing. Terminations will continue.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's a moral question though. Should we sit aside and let people be unjust to others, or should we attempt to rectify the situation? That's the question that all forms of activists have to decide, not just pro-lifers.

    Sure, but I don't see it as an injustice. Or rather, I see the greater injustice would be denying the woman the freedom of an abortion.


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    #688
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Malari wrote: »
    Well you said you didn't want anything to do with the world of women who have abortions. You don't. Good luck with the forcing. Terminations will continue.



    Sure, but I don't see it as an injustice. Or rather, I see the greater injustice would be denying the woman the freedom of an abortion.

    I see the greater injustice to the baby denied a life.


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    #689
    Trail_Blazer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭Trail_Blazer


    I'm a huge proponent of abortion, so long as it's not used as birth control by the same person over & over.


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    #690
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    I've actually kind of come around to the idea of abortion being acceptable recently from the perspective that in the first few weeks the foetus is not aware and can't feel pain, so in a society where rights are given pretty much arbitrarily, which is the type of society we have always lived in with or without religion, we can arbitrarily decide that an unaware foetus doesn't have rights. It might not be pleasant but it's really no different to deciding that animals don't have rights or that certain animals have more rights than others because of arbitrarily assigned criteria. It's the same logic that was used to say that women or black people shouldn't have the vote or that at 18 someone can vote but at 17.5 they can't. It's the same logic that says you can slaughter a cow but not a dog, that you can kill a fox humanely if it's a pest but you can't chase after it with horses, that you can wear a leather jacket but not a fur coat.

    My major problem up to now has been the amount of BS used to try to justify it or pretend it's something it's not. There is a definite scientific difference between a sperm and a zygote, the zygote is an independent being growing inside the mother and is just using her for nutrients. This is evidenced by the fact that women's immune systems are lowered during pregnancy so that they don't reject this foreign body inside them. Unfortunately as we found out this also makes them susceptible to swine flu. The foetus is not a part of their body, it is a separate life form growing inside them and deliberate efforts have to be made so the immune system doesn't attack it like it would all other foreign bodies.

    Also, it's not a just clump of cells like a toe nail. It's a living, growing human being. It is not the same as getting your appendix out, if it was then women would not show any remorse whatsoever over it. No one has ever committed suicide over guilt about having their appendix out.

    Once it is acknowledged that the foetus is a separate human life form growing inside the woman and is not a part of the woman, once we are dealing with the facts and not fooling ourselves to alleviate guilt, we can use the same logic to allow abortion up to a certain level as we do to allow the slaughter of animals for food but not for sport


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    #691
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I see the greater injustice to the baby denied a life.

    I just cannot agree with that. A woman's quality of life is far more important than the life of a foetus in my view.


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