Jacob Theory (Contains Finale Spoilers)

Bounty Hunter

Hello, My name is Jacob and this is my explanation of 'Lost'

My younger brother is known as Esau and serves me reluctantley as was prophecised

Rebecca (Jacob & Esau's mother) overheard this conversation and realized prophetically that Isaac's blessings would go to Jacob, since she was told before the twins' birth that the older son would serve the younger

my brother however has been given many names and forms by different people such as Smokie, Cerberus or Hades due to how it is he has served me. For example Cerberus

Cerberus (Greek: Κέρβερος, Kérberos) in Greek and Roman mythology, is a multi-headed dog which guards the gates of Hades, to prevent those who have crossed the river Styx from ever escaping.

In most works the three-heads each respectively see and represent the past, the present, and the future. However this is something that has has been added to my brothers legacy due to 1) The Nature of where we live (The Island) and 2) The fact that My brother is able to take any form he wishes except that of the Living. This is in contrast with myself who can cure and prolong the lives of the living.

This is due to that fact that we are ourselves Prophets appointed by the higest of Powers. My brother is Hades' loyal watchdog guarding the entrance to the underworld whilst I oversee the higher path where we reside, which is often refered to as The Garden of Eden or The Island.

Over the years my brother through his deeds has begun to represent Evil taking lost souls (eko etc) who had crossed a methaphorical River of Styx to the underworld preventing them from ever escaping thier fate.

This has meant that whilst he is bound by certain rules as my eternal servant, such as not being able too harm me physically, we have have become locked in a battle of good vs Evil for the souls of all people we come across in our Garden of Evil (The Island).

Throughout the years I have used my influence on The Island to save many of those who have become inhabitants of the Island including an egyptian type Culture who began to worship me and build idols in my name, the remnants of which I until recently resided in.

I live here to avoid my Brothers intentions as he had begun to corrupt and manipulate people in the hope of finding me and having them do what he cannot and killing me. Therfore i decided only 1 person should know my location and appointed a leader to the people who followed me, a man named Richard.

I ensured that Richard lived a long life and barely even aged so that I could always have one person I could trust. However Richard will eventually die, so i had to put a plan into action to bring people to our island that would bring together a course of events that could save the Island from my brothers increasing power.

Therefore i left the Island several times in order to force events so that these important people would all come to the Island together. In my absences though My brothers Power and influence had grown stronger, now based out of another temple of whorship which had been created by those fearfull of him known by some as the temple mount or just the temple. This temple was built at Esau's lair and the entrance to the Underworld

In Judaism, the Tombs of the Patriarchs is the second most sacred site in the world, after the Temple Mount

It was through this new position of Power that Esau was able to find a loophole in the rule preventing him from taking physical action against me.

One of the people I had brought to the island despite never meeting me believed he had to take his own life in order to save the island as then he would be reborn as Richards successor, a man named John Locke. When Locke died Esaru took his form and my people believed he was their new Leader and even Richard followed his orders.

However the leader was only supposed to interpret my message, Richard or his people would never believe I wanted one of them to kill me so someone else was needed, someone who has lost something or someone dear to them and could be manipulated into having a grudge to bear against me. Someone like Benjamin Linus, who had lost his daughter after years of devotion to me whilst never getting to meet me as he was not the leader.

Ben may have killed me but i have already fortold this stories end. On this island is a place called The Cave of the Patriarchs also known as the Cave of couples. It has this name because along with our mother (Rebecca) & Our father (Isaac) who are buried there it is also the resting place of the first mortal man and woman Adam & Eve. This place will also be the final Resting place of the head of Esau.

There is such a thing as Personal choice, not all men and women will be easily influenced, especially not those who I have brought to the island and have already been through so much. There is also such a thing as Fate and it is the fate of all these people to prove mankind is at the core good and not Evil and to be the ones to save us all by making The Cave of the Patriarchs Esaus final resting place and freeing the Island and all its secrets from his grasps.

Jay Ru

where did this come from?

eddiehead

Awesome post, where did you get it?

Ya might want to take Jacob out of the title though.

Bounty Hunter

Jay Ru wrote: »

where did this come from?

eddiehead wrote: »

Awesome post, where did you get it?

Ya might want to take Jacob out of the title though.

ill be honest i was bored and wrote it myself, hopefully since i put a finale spoiler tag in the title having Jacobs name there wont matter.

jor el

Wow, interesting stuff.

cooker3

Interesting. I still think you should change the title until after rte/sky air it.

Mr E

I've changed the title from "Jacob's Theory.." to "Jacob Theory" (as if to imply its a theory about this person called Jacob who has been previously mentioned, as opposed to his own theory, implying that he actually exists). Or something. I need to lie down.

Washout

great theory this...

1huge1

Thats so good I wouldn't be suprised if you stole it from the Lost writers desk.

Bounty Hunter

Mr E wrote: »

I've changed the title from "Jacob's Theory.." to "Jacob Theory" (as if to imply its a theory about this person called Jacob who has been previously mentioned, as opposed to his own theory, implying that he actually exists). Or something. I need to lie down.

thats cool was going to say if a mod see's fit to change it go ahead even though in the end only the 's was removed.

Washout wrote: »

great theory this...

1huge1 wrote: »

Thats so good I wouldn't be suprised if you stole it from the Lost writers desk.

ahahah thanks surprised its got this reaction as i was just bored and in a funny mood hense it being Jacob's theory and not mine , im not even sure if it is really a great theory or anything as the only slight stretch from what has been mentioned so far in the show is Esau, Jacobs brother, if you can accept that the person in the finale was Esau and just check what ties Esau in mythology/history etc with things mentioned in the show i.e The Tomb of the patriachs which is alternativley known as the Cave of Couples and is the final resting place of both the head of Esaru and Adam & Eve for example.

dontcallmerosie

This makes so much sense. Great theory! i have been wanting an answer or possible answer to the couple found in the cave in the first series. Nobody seems to remember it when i talk about it. :S i missed half the episodes in the 4th series tho. :S

JLemmon

Yeah good one
But..
If Jacob was at the statue and Esau at the Temple
why did Richard frequent both places? He also brought young Ben there to be revived, if it was Esau's lair then how come Richard hasn't been at crossed purposes as regards his true leader?
I think Esau was living in the cabin, symbolised by the Knife in the fabric picture of the statue (meaning he wanted to kill Jacob), the ring of Ash was holding him in somehow, trapping him so to speak and he was playing games with people who came there, i.e. pretending to be Jacob etc.. but he was being serious when he said "help me", obivously someone did free him the Ash circle was broken and he left in the form of Locke.
Ben is the patsy in all this, he has no other major purpose only the trigger man.
As regards Adam and Eve, didn't Jack say the bodies have been there only 40 or 50 years? But the Black (esau) and white (jacob) stones would follow suit with your idea.

homeOwner

If the un-Locke is Esau then Richard has been played the whole time unwittingly working for Esau. It is Richard who un-Locke tells to go and help real Locke when he is shot, and to give him the compass so he will recognise him as the new leader when he meets him in the past and that he has to die when he leaves the Island.

When real Locke flashes back in time he sets in motion the chain of events where by Richard sees young Locke being born etc.... and the whole time its Esau setting the whole thing up so he can come back as Locke. Richard even says he didnt think young Locke was special, which we now is because he isnt special at all. He isnt the new leader, its Esau.

The whole time Richard has been as big a pawn as Locke which is a shame because I thought he was the one who knew the big picture. To find out he's been duped all along is a bit dissapointing. Does he even know about Esau?

Cake Man

Really good post, wouldn't be surprised if this was the actual script!:pac: Seems fairly accurate tho.

tobehonestwithy

good work:pac:

The only thing is - I think Jacob is actually the younger brother, not Esau

Bounty Hunter

You are correct Easu is actually the Older brother but the important part is as follows:

received the prophecy that twins were fighting in her womb and would continue to fight all their lives, and after they became two separate nations. The prophecy also said that the older would serve the younger; its statement "one people will be stronger than the other" has been taken to mean that the two nations would never gain power simultaneously: when one fell, the other would rise, and vice versa. Traditionally, Rebecca did not share the prophecy with her husband.

Similarily yes I think Easu has been until recently (when Hurley disturbed the Ash) been kept captive in the Cabin, and the temple is his actual home/lair... I should have probably have worked that into my story (which i didnt spend ages on, just wrote what popped into my noggin) that Jacob unable to harm his brother had captured him there in the hope of keeping the Island safe from him whilst he left the island to attract poeple who could take action against Esaru. Except of course then one of those people stumbled on the Cabin early disturbed the Ash and set Esaru free setting off a course of events etc that lead to Ben stabbing Jacob.

although there is def some logic in there this theory is mostly my bored musings i suppose

Bounty Hunter

i do like the idea that when irina and the new group who where sent to the island describe lock as A "candidate" it could mean to be the next Vessel of Jacob. maybe Jacob was the non-widmore/Ben/Hawkings person who sent this new group to the Island and maybe the dude who was in dexter is just the Jacobs current vessel. Not knowing why, they brought Locke's body to the staue where they would be met by someone who knew the answer to their question "what lies in the shadow of the statue", and how would they know the answer well cos Jacob told Richard it of course. So now as suggested maybe Locke will be truely re-born/resserected as the next Jacob and both Good (Jacob) and Evil (esau) will be represented by the same human form.

I can imagine the first scenes of S6 as:

insde the statue Locke (Esau) & Ben are viewed observing Jacobs demise ablaze, then outside all the people who just realised Locke is dead and the person with Ben is somethings else stand gripped in fear as Esau (as Locke) exits the statue and speaks to them as their leader proclaiming the death of Jacob. Ben notices like everyone else Lockes corpse but is too afraid and believes himself too far down one path to do anything but observe Esau's next movie. Just as Esau is saying something hinting at bad times ahead there is a huge white flash like how the finale ended. Suddenly the dead lock on the beachs eye flicks open... hes alive again! with only white in the background, he is visably seen rise to his feet and standing facing Esau (also locke shrouded in a white background) who suddenly burst into black smoke and disperses before The Lost Logo hits.

We then begin the Episode with the Losties who had been in the past by the old hatch site with no sign of Juliet (smokey/Esau will use her on Sawyer later). Flashback in this episode fill in how Chang and others turned the post incident site into the hatch station.

c montgomery

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

i do like the idea that when irina and the new group who where sent to the island describe lock as A "candidate" it could mean to be the next Vessel of Jacob. maybe Jacob was the non-widmore/Ben/Hawkings person who sent this new group to the Island and maybe the dude who was in dexter is just the Jacobs current vessel. Not knowing why, they brought Locke's body to the staue where they would be met by someone who knew the answer to their question "what lies in the shadow of the statue", and how would they know the answer well cos Jacob told Richard it of course. So now as suggested maybe Locke will be truely re-born/resserected as the next Jacob and both Good (Jacob) and Evil (esau) will be represented by the same human form.

I can imagine the first scenes of S6 as:

insde the statue Locke (Esau) & Ben are viewed observing Jacobs demise ablaze, then outside all the people who just realised Locke is dead and the person with Ben is somethings else stand gripped in fear as Esau (as Locke) exits the statue and speaks to them as their leader proclaiming the death of Jacob. Ben notices like everyone else Lockes corpse but is too afraid and believes himself too far down one path to do anything but observe Esau's next movie. Just as Esau is saying something hinting at bad times ahead there is a huge white flash like how the finale ended. Suddenly the dead lock on the beachs eye flicks open... hes alive again! with only white in the background, he is visably seen rise to his feet and standing facing Esau (also locke shrouded in a white background) who suddenly burst into black smoke and disperses before The Lost Logo hits.

We then begin the Episode with the Losties who had been in the past by the old hatch site with no sign of Juliet (smokey/Esau will use her on Sawyer later). Flashback in this episode fill in how Chang and others turned the post incident site into the hatch station.

I really hope this is what happens.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Bounty Hunter

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

as i said in the bit you quoted this is just stuff that popped into my head, the bit about the Cabin in relation to Esau was brought up in the main thread and makes sense and was asked here so i commented on it outside of my OP but i dont have all the answers, who knows when or how he was trapped there and when he was free'd (was it even Hurley or the ash keeping him there) if he even was trapped there to begin with. I also cant fully explain what smokey is, is it Esau, is it a creation of his or something he commands i dont know.

Unpossible

I don't think esau was in the cabin if esau and smokey are one and the same. If smokey was trapped in the cabin then he would not have appeared until the circle was disturbed. Of course smokey could be something else and not esau at all (thinking about it, smokey might be like richard a feature of the island, its defense mechanisim). Also why would the new others take lockes body to show esau? Surely they meant all along to show jacob the body in order to warn him about esau's plan. She even said "someone else has been using it", and the last person we saw using it was shepard and claire. Its beginning to look like Shepard was esau, which leads me to think that if "someone else has been using it" and the last person we saw using it was not Jacob, then it is Jacob who should be there.
A big problem is we do not know how long the entity (which ever one it was) was in the cabin.

Bounty Hunter

Also why would the new others take lockes body to show esau? Surely they meant all along to show jacob the body in order to warn him about esau's plan.

well i posted my take on this a few posts after the OP as below

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

i do like the idea that when illana and the new group who where sent to the island describe lock as A "candidate" it could mean to be the next Vessel of Jacob. maybe Jacob was the non-widmore/Ben/Hawkings person who sent this new group to the Island and maybe the dude who was in dexter is just the Jacobs current vessel. Not knowing why, they brought Locke's body to the staue where they would be met by someone who knew the answer to their question "what lies in the shadow of the statue", and how would they know the answer well cos Jacob told Richard it of course. So now as suggested maybe Locke will be truely re-born/resserected as the next Jacob and both Good (Jacob) and Evil (esau) will be represented by the same human form.

I can imagine the first scenes of S6 as:

insde the statue Locke (Esau) & Ben are viewed observing Jacobs demise ablaze, then outside all the people who just realised Locke is dead and the person with Ben is somethings else stand gripped in fear as Esau (as Locke) exits the statue and speaks to them as their leader proclaiming the death of Jacob. Ben notices like everyone else Lockes corpse but is too afraid and believes himself too far down one path to do anything but observe Esau's next movie. Just as Esau is saying something hinting at bad times ahead there is a huge white flash like how the finale ended. Suddenly the dead lock on the beachs eye flicks open... hes alive again! with only white in the background, he is visably seen rise to his feet and standing facing Esau (also locke shrouded in a white background) who suddenly burst into black smoke and disperses before The Lost Logo hits.

We then begin the Episode with the Losties who had been in the past by the old hatch site with no sign of Juliet (smokey/Esau will use her on Sawyer later). Flashback in this episode fill in how Chang and others turned the post incident site into the hatch station.

Unpossible

well i posted my take on this a few posts after the OP as below

I had read it, Jacob taking Lockes body I'm not sure of, Jacob has the same body now as he did hundreds of years ago, its esau who has been changing. Why would Jacob suddenly do so? but granted I could see it going that way I guess.
On the body question are you suggesting the "new others" brought the body to Jacob for Jacob to take it? I don't agree on that, they clearly needed the body as proof and to warn Jacob, I figured that prehaps there is more to their group than we think (ala richard) and the candidates can join them.

uncleoswald

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

i do like the idea that when irina and the new group who where sent to the island describe lock as A "candidate" it could mean to be the next Vessel of Jacob.

Was it not Frank they described as a candidate?

We then begin the Episode with the Losties who had been in the past by the old hatch site with no sign of Juliet (smokey/Esau will use her on Sawyer later). Flashback in this episode fill in how Chang and others turned the post incident site into the hatch station.

I hope not. They have enough to deal with in Season 6 then having filler flashback episodes of things that we know happened and the button thing makes no sense anyway so any further they try to explain it would make it even more ridiculous. Just like the giant swinging pendulum thingy, its best if we just move on.

Johnmb

What about Jack? For the early seasons, Jack and Locke where competing to be the leader of the Losties. Jack believed in science, Locke in faith. Now Jack has moved more towards faith this season, but if Jacob needed a new body, Jack makes more sense than a second Locke. If Jack was to die early next season that would give them a nice wtf moment, then Jacob could use that body. The Jacob - Esau relationship (free-will/choice v destiny) is pretty much another way of stating the original Jack - Locke relationship (I'm referring to Esau saying the people will never change as being destiny, maybe another word would be more accurate though). Also, I don't think it will be good v evil, it will be choice v destiny, both capable of good and evil, probably without a clear cut answer to finish.

CMpunked

I have a feeling that jacobs enemy is Cerberus.

We know that Smokey can take the form of anyone who is dead on the island, Alex for example.

So he cant kill jacob himself, so needing someone else to do it was the loophole.

Also, when Ben tried summoning cerberus to get judged from the house he didnt show up. Is this because he was already with him?


My thoughts on the next series is now that jacob is out of the way, when anti jacob/bad locke leave the foot with ben, he will proclaim himself as god or whatever of the island, thus not needing lockes body anymore, or that is, to take the apperance of locke, and will return to his form we seen him in the opening scene and locke will come back to life.

jor el

I think Jacob was the one being held in the cabin, but everything else does make a lot of sense.

Bounty Hunter

Johnmb wrote: »

What about Jack? For the early seasons, Jack and Locke where competing to be the leader of the Losties. Jack believed in science, Locke in faith. Now Jack has moved more towards faith this season, but if Jacob needed a new body, Jack makes more sense than a second Locke. If Jack was to die early next season that would give them a nice wtf moment, then Jacob could use that body. The Jacob - Esau relationship (free-will/choice v destiny) is pretty much another way of stating the original Jack - Locke relationship (I'm referring to Esau saying the people will never change as being destiny, maybe another word would be more accurate though). Also, I don't think it will be good v evil, it will be choice v destiny, both capable of good and evil, probably without a clear cut answer to finish.

before i respond, this only makes sense if you are going the Jacob uses a body as a vessel route so please nobody go searching for holes to poke in what i saw here if you not.

A lot of people wont like this but imo Jack will be central to it all and will be there at the end. However not as a vessel for Jacob as firstly he isnt dead (of coourse that could change)and secondly he has switched positions and now like early Locke is more a man of faith, a faith which will be tested when he maybe comes across a born again Locke or Esau taking his fathers form to manipulate him into helping him.

a 2nd lock would personify both good/evil (or whatever you want to call it) within a single body, as you say both are capable of good/evil like any human. But i Also suggested that with everyone knowing that the Locke in the statue is a imposter i.e Sun saying something like 'if hes here, whos in there?' when Lockes dead body was shown that there would no longer be any reason for Esau to hide himself as Locke and that his identity could be revealed. I suggested through him bursting into black smoke (smokey) after dead Lock rises as the new Jacob but thats just a suggestion.

I hope not. They have enough to deal with in Season 6 then having filler flashback episodes of things that we know happened and the button thing makes no sense anyway so any further they try to explain it would make it even more ridiculous. Just like the giant swinging pendulum thingy, its best if we just move on.

througth we know what happened so maybe only in the first ep have these flashbacks i mean showing the very little bits we dont know (the important bits anyway).

purple_hatstand

jor el wrote: »

I think Jacob was the one being held in the cabin, but everything else does make a lot of sense.

I agree and, finally, I don't feel so alone. I stuck the post below into the episode thread a couple of days ago - anyone got any thoughts?

I was wrestling with this for some time and the question that kept coming up in my mind was - Why did Ilana & co. go to the cabin first?

Bram says to Lapidus, "we need to show it [Locke's body] to somebody...so they know who they're up against". They go to the cabin and find it deserted but the tapestry scrap tells them where they need to go next and they end up at the statue.

If we assume that Jacob is 'up against' Esau and Jacob knows that Esau can take the form of another, Locke's body would give Jacob this information (ie that Esau has taken the form of Locke). If we further assume that Ilana is working for Jacob (based on the flashback in the hospital), why would she/they go to the cabin first unless sent there by Jacob?

Do we know the ring of ash was left around the cabin to imprison someone?

How much time passed between Hurley disturbing the ring of ash and Ilana & co. arriving at the cabin? (maybe someone else was using it in the meantime?)

A further confusion arises from the fact that Jacob immediately recognises Un-Locke as Esau. So, did he need to see Locke's body for confirmation of who he is 'up against'?

And if not, were Ilana & co. taking it to someone else?

My head hurts.

Sad Professor

I think Jacob lived at the cabin at some point. It's the only way to explain why Ben led Locke out there originally.

Also the tapestry Ilana found in the cabin would appear to have been torn from the larger one Jacob had under the statue:





See the missing left corner?

It's also possible that the circle of ash was there not to imprison something but to keep something out. Once it was breached Jacob abandoned the cabin for the statue.

Why was Un-Locke surprised to find Jacob there? I dunno, perhaps Jacob abandoned the statue at some point in the past, after it was destroyed, and Un-Locke didn't think he'd go back there.

Ilana and co were going to Jacob's cabin to show him dead Locke. However, since Jacob had already been forced to leave the cabin he knew what Esau was up to, hence the reason he recognised him.

That's the best I can make of it.

Bounty Hunter

that makes perfect sense, its why Ben probably chose the cabin to try and fool Locke. Perhaps he had seen Richard visit Jacob their previously and where better for Easu to lurk than somewhere people would confuse him with Jacob and thus be more easily influenced to do his bidding.

Its one of the reasons the Vessel idea works for me, its a reason Locke would have to die, its a reason they brought his body to Jacob first looking at the Cabin then the statue, it is also a way for locke to truely become the others leader and the steward if the Island.

Why he had to leave the island to die for this im not sure although perhaps that is just down to the fact that it was believed it would take his death to bring back those who left the island and those Jacob had wanted on the island or perhaps that was Esau's doing afterall he appearead to Locke as christian (as far as we know) telling him to turn the wheel. Maybe he sent him off island to die as he caught wind of Jacobs plans to bring the oceanic 6 back and knew Locke would return with them and then he would also have a new Vessel for himself nobody on Island would know is dead (and those that do would believe ressurected and follow) that could get him access to Jacob.

purple_hatstand

Nice one guys- these are the kinds of things I've been thinking, too. The asking of important questions is a good way to straighten out my thoughts and find the difference between things we know and things we think we know.

redpanda26

Thats a very interesting theory but I've watched lost since series 1 and i cant for the life of me remember the couple found in the cave. could anyone refresh my memory as to what episode it was or what other details were in it please?

Sad Professor

redpanda26 wrote: »

Thats a very interesting theory but I've watched lost since series 1 and i cant for the life of me remember the couple found in the cave. could anyone refresh my memory as to what episode it was or what other details were in it please?

It was in "House of the Rising Sun" in season 1. More details here:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Adam_and_Eve

Anima

They say that those skeletons are going to be the proof that they always knew what the story was going to be and that they weren't making it up as they go along.

To do that, it would have to be one of the survivors that went back in time I think. My guess is Rose and Bernard. Its kind of fitting and we know that they are close to the area.

Bounty Hunter

Rose and Bernard are imo also the best choice as despite the island maybe being a methaphorical Garden of Eden, the names Adam & Eve were only given to them by Locke as a nickname. The black and white stones though are bound to be mentioned again (or have they been?) since Jack took them (although that was years ago now who knows what he did with em) and since we have not seen Rose and Bernard or whomever do turn out to be Adam/Eve with the stones.

Sad Professor

Tbh if we never heard another thing about the bloody skeletons I wouldn't care. I never considered them a mystery. And I doubt the writers did either until the fans started making a big deal about them. So hopefully it is Rose and Bernard.

Bounty Hunter

yeah i dont think it is a big mystery but i do think we will see em again hense them showing that certain bits were pre-planned like the time travel perhaps if its Bernard and Rose.

CMpunked

In the life and death of jeremy bentham, how did anti jacob know that Ben had killed Locke?...

Bounty Hunter

C-B-G wrote: »

In the life and death of jeremy bentham, how did anti jacob know that Ben had killed Locke?...

if you can believe that Locke is now "anti-Locke" or 'Esau' then its just as easy to assume he can not only take someones form but their memories etc aswell as otherwise how would he even know Suns name for example.

brennaldo

was anyone else pissed off like myself to see jacob dead, i mean they spent 2 or 3 seasons leading up to who/what he was and the they just kill him straight away, a bit annoying imo.

redpanda26

posted by sad professor

It was in "House of the Rising Sun" in season 1. More details here:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Adam_and_Eve

Thanks for that, couldn't remember that episode at all.

Soby

brennaldo wrote: »

was anyone else pissed off like myself to see jacob dead, i mean they spent 2 or 3 seasons leading up to who/what he was and the they just kill him straight away, a bit annoying imo.

If he is indeed dead

Killaqueen!!!

I was thinking along similar lines to this whole Jacob/Esau thing going on but didn't quite have it, and you guys really hit it home for me. I wouldn't be surprised if what's mentioned in this thread is what will happen over the next series.

However, I am a little confused as to why Esau had to wait for so long to find a loophole. Even in the short time that the Losties are here, Esau could've used any number of dead bodies floating around - Eko would be perfect seeing as Smokey himself killed him. Why didn't he take on the form of someone else to kill Jacob? Is Locke special, is he some sort of Prophet/evil Prophet and it is only Locke which Esau can use? I'm interested to know the rules of the Jacob/Esau conflict.

Also, not sure whether Smokey is Esau or not - there is certainly a connection there though. Note how early on (series 1 i think) smokey tried to drag Locke down into the 'underworld'. However, if Esau controls Smokey, why did it seem to be judging people - alot of us thought early on that Smokey represented the island and it judged people. This is why it killed Eko after he refused to repent for what he did.

uncleoswald

Killaqueen!!! wrote: »

However, I am a little confused as to why Esau had to wait for so long to find a loophole. Even in the short time that the Losties are here, Esau could've used any number of dead bodies floating around - Eko would be perfect seeing as Smokey himself killed him. Why didn't he take on the form of someone else to kill Jacob? Is Locke special, is he some sort of Prophet/evil Prophet and it is only Locke which Esau can use? I'm interested to know the rules of the Jacob/Esau conflict.

Also, not sure whether Smokey is Esau or not - there is certainly a connection there though. Note how early on (series 1 i think) smokey tried to drag Locke down into the 'underworld'. However, if Esau controls Smokey, why did it seem to be judging people - alot of us thought early on that Smokey represented the island and it judged people. This is why it killed Eko after he refused to repent for what he did.

I don't think it could have been anyone though as to be granted an audience with Jacob you had to be Leader of the Others. To get to be Leader you would have to appear special, say a healed cripple.

But I am confused why everyone thinks that Jacob/Esau/Smokey can only take the form of dead people? Was Walt dead when he appeared to Locke? And its not like Esau is actually using Locke's body. As far as I can tell the reason Locke had to die was not that Esau could take his form but so it could appear that the island resurrected him, therefore confirming to Richard Locke's special status.

ArmaniJeanss

Couple of quick questions/observations probably better suited to this thread than the main thread.

Having watched the final statue scene again there is some interesting use of light when Jacob gives his 'you have a choice' speech to Ben... Jacob is half in darkness/ half in light like Ben & Widmore in an epsiode last season. Possibly an indicator that Jacob is not the epitome of goodness that he otherwise seemed to me.

CS Lewis's Narnia has been mentioned a few times on various threads. The Loophole and Jacobs death seemed a bit like 'Deep Magic from the Dawn of Time' which

The Witch

uses to kill

Aslan

.
But that magic gets usurped by 'Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time' which

The Witch

didn't know about, and I suspect that Esau has made a similar error.
(Ironically enough the next chapter in that book is about statues coming back to life, but I doubt Lost will go there !!!)

Finally on second viewing Jacobs "They're coming" sounds a bit more like an urgent warning rather than a threat or triumphalism.

Killaqueen!!!

uncleoswald wrote: »

As far as I can tell the reason Locke had to die was not that Esau could take his form but so it could appear that the island resurrected him, therefore confirming to Richard Locke's special status.

Hmmm...well Richard had already accepted Locke as the leader of the Others before he died or indeed knew he had to die.

Johnmb

Killaqueen!!! wrote: »

Hmmm...well Richard had already accepted Locke as the leader of the Others before he died or indeed knew he had to die.

True, but Richard wouldn't bring Ben to see Jacob, would he have been likely to bring Locke to see him if he'd didn't think there was something exceptional about him?

youngblood

To be honest IF Jacob is the greater Good, then the greater good is never really defeated in death Aslan/Harry Potter etc

Now IF he's not the good guy, then we've just been treated to another unnecessay story arc to flesh out the grander story.

And we've already had enough of them!

All I can say is I hope the "they're coming" does not refer to aliens
If it does, I will go mental!!!!

Killaqueen!!!

Johnmb wrote: »

True, but Richard wouldn't bring Ben to see Jacob, would he have been likely to bring Locke to see him if he'd didn't think there was something exceptional about him?

He was crippled before he came to the island, and then he was cured. When Ben shot him and left him for dead he was healed when Walt told him to get up. He's always seemed to be fairly special! Wheras Ben wasnt healed when he had the spinal tumour.

It doesnt hold much significance anyway. The thing i wanna know is what the connection between Smokey and Esau is

Johnmb

Killaqueen!!! wrote: »

It doesnt hold much significance anyway. The thing i wanna know is what the connection between Smokey and Esau is

Actually, I don't think there will be any connection between them. I reckon Smokey will be independent of both Esau and Jacob. It cannot be manipulated by either of them, but it has no control over them and has to back off when they say so. That's why I don't think that the Alex that appeared to Ben was Smokey, I think it was Esau. Admittedly, I only watch the episodes once (unlike some here ) but from memory Smokey seemed to back off from Ben fairly quickly and Alex seemed to already be behind Ben. My guess is that Smokey hadn't actually finished with Ben, but had to withdraw once Esau (in the form of Alex) showed up. Un-Locke was either just acting surprised when Ben told him about Alex, or maybe he didn't know, he appeared in his own form, and Ben seen whatever he wanted to see, Esau didn't know, nor care, what Ben seen, as long as he got the message.