The Left Wing in Ireland

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 1:51pm #1

While I know that we have a small left element to our mainstream politics- how come there isnt a large left wing party in the 26?
The majority of our founding fathers were lefties.
Do people ever see the left rising to power here and if so where is it most likely to come from? (ie from an already established party or a new one?)

edanto · 13-05-2009 1:57pm

It can only come from people that care enough joining the established parties and changing their policies.

I see the left in Ireland as too splintered, and busy arguing over the finer points, to collaborate effectively in changing our country. So the question for everyone that cares is, what are you doing about it?

Wheely · 13-05-2009 2:06pm

Fact of the matter is, we're a very right-wing country, we've never had a left wing govt and I don't know if we ever will. It also depends on what you mean by "the left" are you referring to Labour, or SF or the SP,SWP anti-war movement, shell to sea fringe elements, who to be honest I wouldn't want to see within ten miles of Leinster House.

Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:09pm

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djpbarry · 13-05-2009 2:11pm

Well, yeah, relative to you! But then, Thatcher was left-wing compared to you!

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 2:21pm

Your right wing?
Interesting, what elements of right wing ideology do you agree with?
What right wing policies do you support?

Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:22pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 2:27pm

I agree with you about fiscal restraint in terms of bailing out the banking sector.
However isnt a lack of government intervention what essentially helped to make a global recession into an economic nightmare here in Ireland.
Greater economic freedom? elaborate

markesmith · 13-05-2009 2:28pm

Less government intervention, after what the banks and property developers just did? And lower taxes would bankrupt the state in the current climate.

I think we're a bit of an unique case. Socialism was always seen as a bit shady by Irish people. As an agricultural society not that long ago, left-wing politics got very short shrift. 'Left' was, and to an extent still is, likely to make a lot of people think 'Red revolution'.

Most people vote based on Dev and Collins, or based on what their fathers vote/voted, or based purely on the candidate as opposed to the party.

Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:29pm

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ionix5891 · 13-05-2009 2:31pm

I always taught the main parties here (except SF) are very centrist (maybe slightly right wing)

i dont think one would find a party in this day and age that preaches restraint, its all bailout this quantitively ease that :pac:

we all know that donegalfella is a bit of the scale with his newfound church of Libertarianism beliefs

ionix5891 · 13-05-2009 2:33pm

some would point out that its exactly the political and economic meddling of the free market that got us here

interest rates were held artificially low flooding Ireland with cheap credit, which in itself is not a bad thing if it was used responsibly by people and the government(S) but as we now we just pissed it all away

Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:37pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 2:38pm

Libertarian anarchist?
Your almost as much of a dreamer as me!
What would you put forward as being then regulating party in all of this- without a national government someone will have to regulate or will choose to regulate.
Ie warlords will pop up etc

Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:39pm

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Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:41pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 2:45pm

Every market needs a system of checks and balances in order to guard against exploitation by those with knowledge of those without it.
The governments lack of intervention and implementation of checks and balances allowed those with knowledge (bank executives) to take advantage of those without knowledge ( people looking for loans, mortgages)

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 2:50pm

I have read up on libertarian anarchism and in theory it is a lovely dream- same way as socalism is.
I am an anarchist myself but in reality it will not ever happen- the greed of individuals will see to that.
I know that governments are just settled roving bandits charging us taxes in order to guarantee our legal rights which are usually imposed on us!
But in reality someone will have to regulate any political system that was put in place now or else some self interested parties would take it upon themselves to increase their power/influence and we would be back to the old situation of having a government in all but name but these new guys would probably be more corrupt

Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:53pm

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Permabear · 13-05-2009 2:58pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:06pm

While I do no have sympathy for people who stupidly over stretched themselves- you are trying to simplify this way too much.
Our property boom was built on wreckless lending to developers which in turn created a massive increase in the amount of cash that was changing hand in the circular flow of income.
The willingness of the banks to then lend ridiculous sums to people in order to keep inflating the bubble meant that they were essentially lending money to individuals in order to drive up the price of property and ensure that they got extra business and faster returns from developers.
It was a no lose policy for bank executives as they knew that the laws werent in place to prevent this massive fraud or to do anything after the event either.
People will always need to buy houses and many had no option but to get a large mortgage in order to get on the property ladder.

af_thefragile · 13-05-2009 3:06pm

Wait a few more years and EU will complete its journey towards becoming EUSSR.

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:07pm

You are talking about individual land ownership- but eventually agroup of guys who are bigger than you are going to show up and say pay us taxes and we will protect you or else we will beat you up and take your land

Wheely · 13-05-2009 3:20pm

Yeah that would work, human nature has always shown itself to be completely non-aggressive, ESPECIALLY when its pursuing lief liberty and happiness. You're right who needs the State to set boundaries.....

Wasn't aware of the FF/FG/Labour policies to abolish private ownership..........
Or standardise wages for that matter

RealityCheck · 13-05-2009 3:24pm

Ireland is a conservative nation with centrist parties. We have absolutely no meaningful form of a left right wing divide. FF, the Greens and Labour are the most central with Labour slightly more left of centre. FF like to float between different sides of centre depending on what way the wind is blowing:D. FG are slighlty more right wing. You then have some fairly moderate socialists (by modern standards) like SF and the Socialist party. There are no hardcore right wing parties. The PDs however being the nearest thing to that, but they were economically liberal right wing as opposed to totalitarian right wing.

All in all very boring and conservative!

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:25pm

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RealityCheck · 13-05-2009 3:32pm

All that is human nature, especially in Ireland;) That sort of behaviour in my opinion would be more prevalent in a right wing libertarian anarchist society as there would be very few systems in place to knock out such behaviour. People will always attempt to influence each other, and people will continuously do so unless there are stringent systems in place to prevent it.

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:35pm

People do need to buy houses- as most people want to have their own private property(as you advocate) and even if they do rent - someone at some stage has to buy in order to facilitate the rent.
Massive fraud- intentionally over inflating a market in order to guarantee short term profits and thus bonuses - when it eventually goes wrong they were able to high tail it out of there as the laws werent in place to pursue them and the regulation wasnt there to monitor the actions of banks.

How do I know this will happen? Historical evidence.
You know this would happen- as I have stated already I am an anarchist at heart but in reality what you are advocating will never happen.

djpbarry · 13-05-2009 3:39pm

I would say that Irish politics is, in general, left-wing, yes, with some parties (FF, FG) being more centrist than others (Labour, SF). However, the point is that “left-wing” and “right-wing” are highly subjective concepts and depend entirely on where one places the centre. For example, a centrist party in Europe is likely to be considered “left-wing” by American standards.

Nobody forced the banks to offer cheap credit.

djpbarry · 13-05-2009 3:41pm

So which is it?

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:44pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:45pm

In order to fulfill their desire of owning private property- they need to buy a house

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:50pm

Yes but in Ireland we suffered from a serious negligence on the part of governments in not regulating and putting in place enough checks and balances(that is the original point we are arguing).
I agree that it is a cultural preference to own a home but isnt one of your beliefs that all people should have private property?
And in order for there to be a rent scheme- someone has to own the property- and we dont have the same system and rights for tenants that they have in places such as Germany.

The historical evidence of how we got to this system of having governments in the first place

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:59pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 4:03pm

I dont think the situation has come about due to the Dail being packed with right-wingers more likely its come about due to the Dail being packed with clowns

BaboonCsection · 13-05-2009 4:05pm

I know this is going a bit back to this afternoon but which founding fathers are are you referring to exactly?

Permabear · 13-05-2009 4:08pm

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fly_agaric · 13-05-2009 4:18pm

But as you pointed out, not as many as in some other European countries...which coincidentally protect tenants a bit more than we do.

Permabear · 13-05-2009 4:26pm

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irish_bob · 13-05-2009 4:37pm

its a complete myth that tennants in this country are not well protected , perhaps the goverment could provide more attractive measures for renting ( tax breaks etc akin to mortgage relief for buyers )but regarding protection from evictions etc , the tennant in this country is well protected by legislation

slightly off topic but not unrelated , ask any farmer in this country about right of ways that go back a century , you would be amazed how much protection under the law non owners of property have , if your great grand pa walked his horse and cart through whats now a 500 acre corn field , the long gone farmers city slicker grandson still has some rights provided he took a stroll down the field once every few years , huge amount of grey areas in this whole subject

Zuiderzee · 13-05-2009 4:40pm

The Left has, in fairness made strides towards amalgamation.

WP/DL went into Labour.

Apart from Conolly, really none of the others in 1916 were Left in the European sense, more radicals and nationalists I would say.
Catholisism (sorry - just cant spell) really had a hold through out.

Sadly what we still have a lot of is dynastic post civil war politics.

FF have essentially become what I would call a modern gaullist party. They have gone past nationally controlled idustry, but still maintain broad appeal

FG are a hybrid - Christian and Social Democrats forced together by the popularity of FF

Labour have trade union and Liberal elements

futurehope · 13-05-2009 4:45pm

Irish politics is definitely bizarre by European standards and seems to have more in common with The US. I.e. the more things change, the more they stay the same. I have some thoughts on this. Firstly Ireland has been dominated by twin tyrants, namely The RC church and Irish Republicanism. Whilst The RC church seems to be gradually losing it's grip on Irish thought and behaviour, it still has a long way to go by European or British standards. In the same way, although I accept that not everybody in The ROI supports militant Republicanism, or ever did, most still pay lip service to the idea of a United Ireland and the main parties all maintain this strange aspiration. These two phenomena have strangled the emergence of modern politics in Ireland and until both have been safely relegated to the absolute margins there is little hope for change.

In addition, Ireland's small size, relative poverty and deep isolationism down the years has produced a conservative and inward looking society, that has spawned a political consensus based upon a managerial style of politics rather than an ideological one.

Also, there is clearly a sense that The Irish people themselves seem to adopt a mantle of self deception, that has been reinforced down the centuries by myths surrounding Ireland and it's former partners in The UK. This can be seen today in the way Irish Nationalists claim that political Union's are a hang over from history, whilst at the same time revelling in all aspects of The EU (the emerging super-union). They boast of their fight for independence from The UK, whilst meekly bowing the knee to The EU. Self deception.

Finally, on an apparently insignificant point, it would help bring about change, if the main Irish parties changed their names to English names. Not only are the current names farcial in the modern world, but they fail to reflect any ideology. If they changed their names to The Conservative Party, The Liberal Party, etc, they would find their policies would diverge accordingly.

The_Minister · 13-05-2009 5:38pm

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 gives us very strong protections of tenants.

And, on topic, it has to be said that left-right doesn't really exist anymore. There are many people who classify themselves as "left" but very few who classify themselves as "right", and those who do, range from the anarco-capitalists to the Christian right; groups of people who wouldn't touch each other.

The left in Ireland have tried (and succeeded in some ways) to make people think that left = sugar, spice and everything nice, while right = slugs, snails and puppydog tails.
The reality is that most people are a mix of the two, and that a scale ranging from Libertarian to Authoritarian is more appropriate in today's environment. When this scale is used, many people on the "left" end up in the same place as the "right".

Acacia · 13-05-2009 6:15pm

If by 'founding fathers' you mean those involved in 1916, then yes, James Connolly, for example, would be left-wing. But that's not the kind of government we had in place after Independence, or since tbh. DeValera created quite a (socially) conservative government and it's not changed all that much since then.

PrivateEye · 13-05-2009 6:39pm

“The fight for the conquest of the politial

state is not the battle, it is only the echo

of the battle. The real battle is the battle
being fought out every day for the power
to control industry, and the gauge of the
progress of that battle is not to be found
in the number of votes making a cross
beneath the symbol of a political party,
but in the number of these workers who
enrol themselves in an industrial organisation
with the definite purpose of making
themselves masters of the industrial
equipment of society in general"

-James Connolly.

I'm a libertarian socialist myself, and as such do not lend support to any left wing parlimentary party. However I do consider myself (and the movement to which I belong) a part of the 'left wing in Ireland'

You can ask why Ireland doesn't currently have a (major) left wing political party, the logic of determining them to be such a party being a seat or more in the Dáil. The three parties that some people would classify as 'left' in the Dáil would be Sinn Féin, Labour, and the Greens.[/FONT]

Now when you consider

(*)Both Labour and Sinn Féin WELCOMED the ICTU decision to postpone the March 30th general strike.

(*)Labour have already attempted to get into government by piggy-backing Fine Gael, which would ultimately have made them 'The Green Party' of that coalition

(*)The Greens in government have been an absolute disaster. The natural resources question has been dropped from the agenda alltogether, in fact the Greens are actually complicit in a giant mess they once opposed

(*)Sinn Féin ARE in government. Stormont hasn't brought about many of the changes Sinn Féin promised people in 'their' communities however.

It paints a grim picture!

There is a 'left wing' in Ireland, but it will never materialise in the form of a single political party, because there is a history of two extremes. One is splits (I-Cant-Believe-Its-Not-Sinn-Fein Sinn Fein) and the other is compromise (I-Cant-Believe-Its-Not-Fianna-Fail GP)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEzXln5kbuw

In reality, it is happening. There are democratically controlled workplaces and communities springing up in Latin America. Workers occupations like the recent Visteon sit-ins showed the same principles can actually be applied in a different economic/cultural setting too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUig0lFHDDw

There was also a revolution in Spain, did pretty well there.

Permabear · 13-05-2009 7:08pm

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irish_bob · 13-05-2009 7:51pm

expertly put , most irish people are deeply unidealogical and do not like to pigeonhole themselves in a liberal or conservative box , i agree that the term right wing thanks to the media is a dirty filthy word in this country , by contrast , in the usa from 2001 to about 2007 , the biggest insult you could level at someone was to call them a liberal yet many liberals in the true sense of the word would be republican voters so it just goes to show you that labeling is often pointless , especially in this country

Nodin · 13-05-2009 8:14pm

Well some labels. Ones like 'cowboy', 'chancer', 'gombeen' and especially 'thick' fit quite well I find.

jmcc · 13-05-2009 8:23pm

The problem with the Left is that they are either on the dole or write for the Irish Times. Leftism seems to attract a lot of well meaning people in their teens and twenties but by the time they hit thirty and have to work for a living, they become Right wing - especially when the government decides to increase taxes. Those who don't tend to be union representatives or long term unemployed. Or perhaps I'm being too cynical again.

Regards...jmcc

irish_bob · 13-05-2009 8:38pm

on the dole or write for the irish times , cynicaly but delisciously put

Nodin · 13-05-2009 8:41pm

There is that indeed.

The Left Wing in Ireland

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