Fianna Fail F**ked ? ! ?

Slideshowbob

So I put it to whoever interested in a debate:

Fianna Fail have always relied on a republican agenda, so I gather their raison d'etre has been to observe, be faithful to, and to carry out their politics to the letter of the Proclaimation of 1916.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_Irish_Republic

Given their management of the economy over the last few years (ie property tax incentives on top of an already bouyant construction industry) could it be right that they have lost their way.

Now without a sound essence FF are lost sheep and in terminal decline.

Irish politics has evolved.

I say all this as a Fianna Fail member with a lifetime allegiance, now reconsidering my political affinity.

I'd love a FF stalward to come along and dis-prove me ........

Seth Brundle

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Fianna Fail have always relied on a republican agenda, so I gather their raison d'etre has been to observe, be faithful to, and to carry out their politics to the letter of the Proclaimation of 1916.

Maybe originally but as far as I can remember the party was always more important than the national interest.

todolist

It's not only FF that's knackered,i really believe western liberal democracy is doomed.Just look at the carry on politicians here and in London.Democracy is taking a big hammering on so many levels.Democracy is going to fail.

ninty9er

Mistakes have been made, but since other people (nobody on this thread) have put politics and soccer in the same bracket, you don't stop supporting a team because they're playing **** or badly managed, so when you join a party I have much more respect for you if you can stick with it and try to change it rather than give up like a complete loser and move on to the next crowd, a bit like a particular former Fianna Fáil member who was kicked out of FF, subsequently joined FG, where he was kicked out and is now some sort of "guru" at Libertas.

Fianna Fáil is not in terminal decline, it's just adapting at a slower pace than I would like to the world around it.

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

If, as one of my counterparts experienced at JUST ONE door this evening, you slam your door in someones face because of a logo on a card, that shows more your ignorance than anything else.

If you realistically have something wrong, don't expect us to be mind readers.

Just because you've been made redundant, doesn't mean the entire road has, and just because the economic situation is affecting you doesn't mean that it's affecting everyone, so when I go to a door and ask people if they have any issues, it shows complete ignorance on their part if the answer is "you're canvassing for the wrong party". Why am I canvassing for the wrong party, and more to the point, considering I'm the only person that's knocked on the door instead of dumping a leaflet in, tell me what is affecting YOU. "you know damn well" isn't a good answer, and it tells me nothing I can pass to the candidate, who is more than likely with me anyway, which would enable him or her to help you.

Politics is about serving people, and from what I heard on the doorsteps tonight, soem people are dissatisfied with how things are going in general in the economy, but the vast majority of people are getting on with their lives and it's still as irrelevant to them as it's always been who is in government.

Fianna Fáil is an organisation that is not limited to national government, community, local government and civic duties. And regardless of any opinion expressed anywhere, Fianna Fáil is an organisation whose parliamentary party will continue to exist, because many of you seem to forget that countries don't just need governments, they need oppositions too!

paddyland

Fianna Fáil in opposition will have some gall to shout across the house when their turn comes having left this country in the mess it's in. Regardless how the incoming government might equally screw the country, and allowing that of course we need an opposition, Fianna Fáil will do well to keep their mouths firmly shut for four years, or at least until we have had a complete sweep out of the entire front bench. Their credibility is completely gone, and their word on anything now is worthless.

I have been left destitute by the policies of this government. By my own mistakes and bad judgement too, but then the Fianna Fáil party dictated a fast track economy for everyone, whether we agreed with it or not. That is 'democracy.' And there were two choices. Jump onto the speeding train, or fall under the tracks. I hung myself out the window for a home and a mortgage, because out of the mouth of our glorious leader, this economy could do no wrong, and would climb and climb forever. I mistrusted this, and had no doubt a 'correction' would occur, but I did assume naively that there were economists and bankers who understood these things and would never allow such a crash as this to happen, regardless of the incompetence of the FF government. After all I am not an economist, I am just an ordinary guy who has to trust that my government will not lead me up the creek.

I would have managed if I was at least in secure employment, but I had the misfortune to have not one, but two different careers crash spectacularly due directly to the corrupt policies and mismanagement of one particular FF minister, who has ruined my life, and who seems to have no affinity at all with the human tragedy behind his ignorant and self serving agendas.

This FF government stand for corruption, and anyone who canvasses for them, supports them, or votes for them, also stands for corruption. You cannot cherrypick the bits you like. No governmental policy, no matter how well meaning, is worth the price of corruption elsewhere in the system. There is one thing Brian Cowen can do now to redeem his reputation, and guarantee a kindly record in the history books.

That is to take the whole rotten system and ruthlessly tear it asunder, and to hell with party loyalties first and everyone else second. He has an opportunity now that no leader before ever had, with the state the country is in. Turn it all on it's head, root out every avenue of corruption, and be seen to stand ruthlessly for a new order, a society based on decency and honesty.

If he hasn't the balls to do that, then to hell with him, he deserves everything he gets.

ian_m

F**ked is right.

Agent Smith

ninty9er wrote: »

a bit like a particular former Fianna Fáil member who was kicked out of FF, subsequently joined FG, where he was kicked out and is now some sort of "guru" at Libertas.

Libertas Press Office if I recall.

I am open to correction of course

paddyland

ninty9er wrote: »

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

I would like to ask you now, if you might spare a few moments, please, to canvass me for a vote for your candidate.

I am destitute. I was not a 'speculator.' I defy anyone to tell me I bought into the property market to make a 'profit.' I had one dream in life, that was to own my own home.

I lived for years in flatland, in a seedy dump that reeked of damp, and a landlord who cared for nothing except his weekly rent. I vowed I would never live like that again.

I worked appallingly long hours, seven days a week, to claw myself out of that morass. I basically flogged my life away, with the view to getting my own home. The property market rocketed away out of reach, but with the assistance of my employer, I stretched myself to breaking point, and got the home I always dreamed of, and finally moved out of the squalid flea pit lifestyle.

You mention 'standard of living improving over the last 10 years.' Oh sure, I had a nice suite of furniture, and a microwave, and an electric kettle, and a telly. But I had to maintain those relentless long hours, to the point where my home was for sleeping purposes only. I never entertained in it, I never relaxed in it, I never enjoyed it. I lost touch with friends, and became isolated, living for work and nothing else. I had no choice. That, or back to the 'flea pit.' There were ten years of boom in Ireland. I never saw them. I was too busy working.

It was all for nothing. Now my home is worth less than it was when I bought it. I read people telling me it was my fault for borrowing what I could not afford. Give me credit at least for trying. I face losing it, and spending the rest of my life paying off the outstanding debt. I am one of the 'lost' generation, that generation of people who were unfortunate enough to come to maturity in the middle of the boom, who had no option, sink or swim. Who will spend the rest of their life paying the debt. Whose dreams are ruined.

I may as well have skived on the dole all through those years. At least I probably wouldn't have the health problems I now have. And I would be better off now. I am too old to start from scratch. I just have to make the best of what's left.

Please canvass me now for my vote. What will your party do for me and my generation of lost souls? I don't want much. I just want my dignity back.

sub-x

ninty9er wrote: »

Mistakes have been made, but since other people (nobody on this thread) have put politics and soccer in the same bracket, you don't stop supporting a team because they're playing **** or badly managed, so when you join a party I have much more respect for you if you can stick with it and try to change it rather than give up like a complete loser and move on to the next crowd, a bit like a particular former Fianna Fáil member who was kicked out of FF, subsequently joined FG, where he was kicked out and is now some sort of "guru" at Libertas.

Fianna Fáil is not in terminal decline, it's just adapting at a slower pace than I would like to the world around it.

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

If, as one of my counterparts experienced at JUST ONE door this evening, you slam your door in someones face because of a logo on a card, that shows more your ignorance than anything else.

If you realistically have something wrong, don't expect us to be mind readers.

Just because you've been made redundant, doesn't mean the entire road has, and just because the economic situation is affecting you doesn't mean that it's affecting everyone, so when I go to a door and ask people if they have any issues, it shows complete ignorance on their part if the answer is "you're canvassing for the wrong party". Why am I canvassing for the wrong party, and more to the point, considering I'm the only person that's knocked on the door instead of dumping a leaflet in, tell me what is affecting YOU. "you know damn well" isn't a good answer, and it tells me nothing I can pass to the candidate, who is more than likely with me anyway, which would enable him or her to help you.

Politics is about serving people, and from what I heard on the doorsteps tonight, soem people are dissatisfied with how things are going in general in the economy, but the vast majority of people are getting on with their lives and it's still as irrelevant to them as it's always been who is in government.

Fianna Fáil is an organisation that is not limited to national government, community, local government and civic duties. And regardless of any opinion expressed anywhere, Fianna Fáil is an organisation whose parliamentary party will continue to exist, because many of you seem to forget that countries don't just need governments, they need oppositions too!

To use your analogy,if a team fails to achieve anything the manager is held responsible and most likely loses his job,unlike Fianna Fail nobody is being held accountable or willing to take responsibility case in point the e-voting mess(among many others).

Fianna Fail have proven time and time again that they are so out of touch with the common man/woman on the street.

OrangeToolbox

I am hoping that Fianna Fail do so shockingly bad that they have to disband and revert back to the underground, pikey bandits that they are.

The present Goverment will then hopefully collpase.

After that it doesn't matter who takes over... you and I and the stray dog out there on the road will be every bit as good as the useless gowls who are there now. Hopefully the collapse happens before that fcuking useless gimp Dermot Ahern manages to get his blasphemy law passed... Good Man yourself, Minister Ahern, in the face of an unprecedented recession you managed to get your fcuking ridiculous restrictive laws passed. Send us home at 10 PM. Well done. Tell you what, you useless Fianna Fail dickhead, I'll be buying every single drop of booze outsie of The State, so that you do not get a single cent.

amacachi

paddyland wrote: »

I would like to ask you now, if you might spare a few moments, please, to canvass me for a vote for your candidate.

I am destitute. I was not a 'speculator.' I defy anyone to tell me I bought into the property market to make a 'profit.' I had one dream in life, that was to own my own home.

I lived for years in flatland, in a seedy dump that reeked of damp, and a landlord who cared for nothing except his weekly rent. I vowed I would never live like that again.

I worked appallingly long hours, seven days a week, to claw myself out of that morass. I basically flogged my life away, with the view to getting my own home. The property market rocketed away out of reach, but with the assistance of my employer, I stretched myself to breaking point, and got the home I always dreamed of, and finally moved out of the squalid flea pit lifestyle.

You mention 'standard of living improving over the last 10 years.' Oh sure, I had a nice suite of furniture, and a microwave, and an electric kettle, and a telly. But I had to maintain those relentless long hours, to the point where my home was for sleeping purposes only. I never entertained in it, I never relaxed in it, I never enjoyed it. I lost touch with friends, and became isolated, living for work and nothing else. I had no choice. That, or back to the 'flea pit.' There were ten years of boom in Ireland. I never saw them. I was too busy working.

It was all for nothing. Now my home is worth less than it was when I bought it. I read people telling me it was my fault for borrowing what I could not afford. Give me credit at least for trying. I face losing it, and spending the rest of my life paying off the outstanding debt. I am one of the 'lost' generation, that generation of people who were unfortunate enough to come to maturity in the middle of the boom, who had no option, sink or swim. Who will spend the rest of their life paying the debt. Whose dreams are ruined.

I may as well have skived on the dole all through those years. At least I probably wouldn't have the health problems I now have. And I would be better off now. I am too old to start from scratch. I just have to make the best of what's left.

Please canvass me now for my vote. What will your party do for me and my generation of lost souls? I don't want much. I just want my dignity back.

Whilst I despise the current government and most of what they've done, but what kind of ****ty job were you working and expensive house did you buy to get in your situation?

OrangeToolbox

Really though...

According to the opinion polls Fianna Fail might poll as low as 6 or 10 percent in the local elections. That is by all accords an ignominious defeat, and unless they still have thousands still stashed away they might actually cease to exist because they would not be able to finance their Big Top Circus! Imagine that... it would be like freedom from the Brits again. Happy Days!

jimmycrackcorm

OrangeToolbox wrote: »

After that it doesn't matter who takes over

It's this type of thinking that got FF elected in the first place in the last election.

PaddyLand wrote:

I stretched myself to breaking point

You cant blame FF for that one.

ninty9er wrote:

Mistakes have been made, but since other people (nobody on this thread) have put politics and soccer in the same bracket, you don't stop supporting a team because they're playing **** or badly managed,

There's mistakes and then there is MISTAKES. FF are the equivalent of having a rapid dog that bites a kid - it should be put down. Of course we have made great strides in the standard of living over the last ten years; and people like paddyland can complain because he deluded himself into buying overpriced property, but FF have not only wiped out the last 10 years of prosperity but also savaged our potential to recover for decades. Remember Bertie and his "people should commit suicide "remark".?

InFront

ninty9er wrote: »

If, as one of my counterparts experienced at JUST ONE door this evening, you slam your door in someones face because of a logo on a card, that shows more your ignorance than anything else.

If you realistically have something wrong, don't expect us to be mind readers.

Firstly, to put my cards on the table I am a member of Fine Gael and will be voting that way. However, I say this independently of party allegience. No student, worker, pensioner or social welfare recipient owes any canvasser or politician time in the current political and economic climate.
I wouldn't be quite so quick as you to grumble about those who are simply fed up and don't want to hear from politicians because they have lost faith completely. Ignorant is an odd choice of word here because many of these door-slammers feel it is the blindly faithful party hacks and out-of-touch politicians who are and will remain ignorant of the real life problems people are facing.

Just because you've been made redundant, doesn't mean the entire road has, and just because the economic situation is affecting you doesn't mean that it's affecting everyone

This is what I mean by being out of touch. This kind of rise in unemployment does effect everybody, the economic downturn does actually effect everybody in some way.

Politics is about serving people, and from what I heard on the doorsteps tonight, soem people are dissatisfied with how things are going in general in the economy, but the vast majority of people are getting on with their lives and it's still as irrelevant to them as it's always been who is in government.

If the vast majority of people, as you suggest, do not care who is in government, do you seriously expect the forthcoming local, European and Dail elections to prove inconclusive or similar to recent elections as that would suggest? I don't think you really believe that, of course the make-up of the next government, its ministers and cabinet, is relevant. It is far more relevant to people than it has been in my own memory.

Fianna Fáil is an organisation that is not limited to national government, community, local government and civic duties. And regardless of any opinion expressed anywhere, Fianna Fáil is an organisation whose parliamentary party will continue to exist, because many of you seem to forget that countries don't just need governments, they need oppositions too!

There is no doubt about this. I feel there will be a general election within twelve months and that an inevitable FG-Labour victory will actually be quite short-lived itself. I can see FF returning to power by the time a visible improvement in the national economy comes about again by about 2012 based on current forecasts.

me_right_one

paddyland wrote: »

I would like to ask you now, if you might spare a few moments, please, to canvass me for a vote for your candidate.

I am destitute. I was not a 'speculator.' I defy anyone to tell me I bought into the property market to make a 'profit.' I had one dream in life, that was to own my own home.

I lived for years in flatland, in a seedy dump that reeked of damp, and a landlord who cared for nothing except his weekly rent. I vowed I would never live like that again.

I worked appallingly long hours, seven days a week, to claw myself out of that morass. I basically flogged my life away, with the view to getting my own home. The property market rocketed away out of reach, but with the assistance of my employer, I stretched myself to breaking point, and got the home I always dreamed of, and finally moved out of the squalid flea pit lifestyle.

You mention 'standard of living improving over the last 10 years.' Oh sure, I had a nice suite of furniture, and a microwave, and an electric kettle, and a telly. But I had to maintain those relentless long hours, to the point where my home was for sleeping purposes only. I never entertained in it, I never relaxed in it, I never enjoyed it. I lost touch with friends, and became isolated, living for work and nothing else. I had no choice. That, or back to the 'flea pit.' There were ten years of boom in Ireland. I never saw them. I was too busy working.

It was all for nothing. Now my home is worth less than it was when I bought it. I read people telling me it was my fault for borrowing what I could not afford. Give me credit at least for trying. I face losing it, and spending the rest of my life paying off the outstanding debt. I am one of the 'lost' generation, that generation of people who were unfortunate enough to come to maturity in the middle of the boom, who had no option, sink or swim. Who will spend the rest of their life paying the debt. Whose dreams are ruined.

I may as well have skived on the dole all through those years. At least I probably wouldn't have the health problems I now have. And I would be better off now. I am too old to start from scratch. I just have to make the best of what's left.

Please canvass me now for my vote. What will your party do for me and my generation of lost souls? I don't want much. I just want my dignity back.

This is by far the most relevant post I've ever seen. +1,000,000. It rings true for so, so many people. The waste of entire lives for nothing only debt.

Joey the lips

For the record I am not a fianna failure but just to look at the problems.

1. A lot of people blame Fianna Fail for the house situation. I saw David Mc Williams in search of the popes children years ago he warned of the house situation. He warned that we are relying to much on this market. But what were we all doing when this program was running? We were prob watching CSI or soprannos or something!

2. Now what does Ireland do best! We steel jobs from america. Like china poland and asia are steeling jobs from us! We encourage employers here with our low corporation tax and benefits! when this runs out they fack off! Is this Fianna Fails fault? I cant see how! The other economies are just doing what we done better!

3. The unions! There is no doubt Ireland is Fecked without a union! Was it not(Correct me) Ray McSharry who first set down with the unions and began the partnership talks. Remeber partnership 2000!

Now there is no doubt in my mind that Fianna fail and Fianna Gael are very simular in there approch on these situations but its the workings of these situations that failure occurs!

1. Its a know fact not my rantings but confirmable by leading economists that 80% of development land in the dublin and surounding areas is owned bu 20% of the majour developers. When the goverment re zones more land this is usually bought up straight away by these developers. So why was this problem not identified long ago! it was! by both fianna fail and fianna gael the problem is these developers are majour contributors to Fianna fails and fianna Gaels political donations why! to protect this cartel they have! In fact the only 2 partys that consistantly complain about this cartel is labour and Sinn Fein. The others just arent given the airtime.

Have I lost you! Have you wondered why your house is so expensive! Because supply will always fall far short of demand! This is strictly controlled, The current glitch is temporary! Give it time and we will be as relient as ever on the building industry!

So you saw Davis Mc'S program and took precautions not to buy! But your house is falling in demand and price why! your house is falling in demand becuase the banks have cut the money its lending! 100% mortagages are virtually gone! cheap credit it there but getting credit is difficult!

2. Outsourching! Ireland technology boom is based on steeling jobs from other countrys! so why do we give out when its done to us! again if I refere to labour and sinn feins policy. Was it not Michael D Higgins that pointed out many years the importance of home grown industries! Sinn feinns stance is also well known on home grown industries! So why is it we constantly chase international employers and fail to focus on home grown industries! Its only recently Brien Cowen wrote to banks asking them to go easy on home grown industries in trouble

3. The unions, The goverment in my opinion has failed to sit down propperly with the unions but it has made the best attempt to date. Charlie Haughey did not want to know about them. The fact that the unions display labours flag at election time is no coincidence ( even though I always objected to it) labours growth has come from the unions. Fianna Fail have always known this. This is why they sat down with the unions in partnership. Many sinn fein members have been union members most famous of these was Larry o toole the gateaux union rep! Not many fianna fail or fianna gael lads have been unions lads have they?

So you see my problem is this. Yes the goverment is messing up yes they are making mistakes! but is this there failure to manage what they have! I dont think so! I think this is failure on there behalf to take on the real problems and risk loosing its remaining support!

Do you think Fianna Gael will tackle these problems any different than Fianna Fail!!!!

Would you not be of the opinion if you really want radical change you need a labour goverment or sinn fein goverment!

Dob74

FF will do badly in this election but they are not f**ked.
They will probably drop to about 25% at worst.
That will be enough to hold on to 3 mep's and they'll lose about 20 council seats.

Not bad considering they have changed what they stand for almost completely around.
What ever happened to helping national industry.
Instead they are determined to save the banks. An industry that produces nothing, that just acts as a middle man between the people and there money.

I'd give it about 6 months of FG being in government before this forum willl be full of threads giving out about them-maybe less.

I don't expect FG to be in government though,it will be FF and labour and probably the greens.

IIMII

Slideshowbob wrote: »

FF ... in terminal decline.

Many people find FG unnacceptable. Many of these have no real affinity with the labour party. Similarly in the Greens. That leaves FF and SF. SF policy on areas like the economy can be chaotic plus too often SF are seen as a one trick pony in the south. So for many, if you don't vote FF, who else can you vote for. I'd like a change of government, but I'll never vote for an FG government and Labour doesn't appeal to me. I still don't know how I'll vote over the next few years, but whichever way I do, it will not be in a way that facilitates an FG government. Take Kenny, Varadkar, Hayes out and they might be more palatable

Erin Go Brath

paddyland wrote: »

Fianna Fáil in opposition will have some gall to shout across the house when their turn comes having left this country in the mess it's in. Regardless how the incoming government might equally screw the country, and allowing that of course we need an opposition, Fianna Fáil will do well to keep their mouths firmly shut for four years, or at least until we have had a complete sweep out of the entire front bench. Their credibility is completely gone, and their word on anything now is worthless.

I have been left destitute by the policies of this government. By my own mistakes and bad judgement too, but then the Fianna Fáil party dictated a fast track economy for everyone, whether we agreed with it or not. That is 'democracy.' And there were two choices. Jump onto the speeding train, or fall under the tracks. I hung myself out the window for a home and a mortgage, because out of the mouth of our glorious leader, this economy could do no wrong, and would climb and climb forever. I mistrusted this, and had no doubt a 'correction' would occur, but I did assume naively that there were economists and bankers who understood these things and would never allow such a crash as this to happen, regardless of the incompetence of the FF government. After all I am not an economist, I am just an ordinary guy who has to trust that my government will not lead me up the creek.

I would have managed if I was at least in secure employment, but I had the misfortune to have not one, but two different careers crash spectacularly due directly to the corrupt policies and mismanagement of one particular FF minister, who has ruined my life, and who seems to have no affinity at all with the human tragedy behind his ignorant and self serving agendas.

This FF government stand for corruption, and anyone who canvasses for them, supports them, or votes for them, also stands for corruption. You cannot cherrypick the bits you like. No governmental policy, no matter how well meaning, is worth the price of corruption elsewhere in the system. There is one thing Brian Cowen can do now to redeem his reputation, and guarantee a kindly record in the history books.

That is to take the whole rotten system and ruthlessly tear it asunder, and to hell with party loyalties first and everyone else second. He has an opportunity now that no leader before ever had, with the state the country is in. Turn it all on it's head, root out every avenue of corruption, and be seen to stand ruthlessly for a new order, a society based on decency and honesty.

If he hasn't the balls to do that, then to hell with him, he deserves everything he gets.

Excellent post, best post i've read on this site in a long time.

You are not alone, there are many people in the same situation as yourself. This whole mess can be traced back to Bertie Ahern and his property bubble. Building a house of cards based on many people buying multiple properties and selling them to each other at greatly inflated prices, and people paying way over the odds to just have a roof over their heads. Coupled with the prohibitive stamp duty which forced people who wanted to buy, mostly first time buyers to purchase in a new development, mostly badly built, badly designed and located estates. The media, Govt, and culture in general told us to buy property because people that buy "have their heads screwed on".

FF's policies which were always designed to help their "shareholders" ie big builders, developers, bankers etc etc. They will of course all be bailed out by their buddies in power as the economy goes titsup. The fallout from this and the debt has been privatised to ordinary joes like yourself to deal with. Anger, depression, and a myriad of negative emotion abounds in these times as people are losing their jobs and our country has become uncompetitive as a result.

FF elected reps are immoral for putting their interests and popular short term votes ahead of the country and i think what they have done is unforgiveable. People knocking on doors for FF deserve all the criticism and anger people can muster directed at them as spokespeople for that party!

squonk

+10 and +1000 for the person who described buying their house earlier. That's the way of it. Anyone trying to buy in the past few years was royally rogered by the banks and the govt. who were both involved in faning the hype. In the end though, people have short memories and FF have a strong core support base that will most likely not go away so we're in for more of the same later on. It's left for the opposition to step in, try to clear up the mess left by FF, do their dirty work for them in other words, and that gets them voted out of Govt with people reckoning then that FF are the best alternative. Not good. We need something else however I don't know what! I am not a FF supporter btw and never have and never wil lvote for them.

Erin Go Brath

Dob74 wrote: »

FF will do badly in this election but they are not f**ked.
They will probably drop to about 25% at worst.
That will be enough to hold on to 3 mep's and they'll lose about 20 council seats.

Not bad considering they have changed what they stand for almost completely around.
What ever happened to helping national industry.
Instead they are determined to save the banks. An industry that produces nothing, that just acts as a middle man between the people and there money.

FF will lose more than that. I truly believe they are facing meldown in these elections. They will lose 50+ council seats and get only 2 definite Euros in East and South, although they could conceivable get 4 at a push. Hopefully the good people of Ireland will hand as many as possible p45s to the self-serving gombeen party. God knows they deserve it.

enda1

squonk wrote: »

+10 and +1000 for the person who described buying their house earlier. That's the way of it. Anyone trying to buy in the past few years was royally rogered by the banks and the govt. who were both involved in faning the hype. In the end though, people have short memories and FF have a strong core support base that will most likely not go away so we're in for more of the same later on. It's left for the opposition to step in, try to clear up the mess left by FF, do their dirty work for them in other words, and that gets them voted out of Govt with people reckoning then that FF are the best alternative. Not good. We need something else however I don't know what! I am not a FF supporter btw and never have and never wil lvote for them.

Its the government and banks' fault that he's in debt??

How about stepping back and realising, maybe its his fault?
Why did he believe that working seven days a week and scraping together a mortgage was a good idea/a sustainable way of living?

How easily everyone seems to have forgotten the lives of those before us and closed off the lives of those around us. Ask your parents, grandparents, old neighbours - no one would have made such horrendous decisions as he.

Life's not easy but that was a rediculously stupid decision to put himself in such a position, and how does the current value of the property matter anyway if he's going to be keeping it? Interest rates have plummeted further from when he got his mortgage so his repayments should be even less now too.

I don't get this country at all, is everyone so weak and selfish that they cant take the blame for their own cock ups?

squonk

enda1 the point is that while that poster's actions aren't something I would do, I have to also stand back and say that I had the luxury of getting on the property ladder much earlier in the boom, had a better earnings to mortgage repayment ratio at the time and a much mor reasonable expectation of being able to pay my way. I think the story is vastly different for peopel buying the past few years. I have to say that I had no idea what way the market was going to go when I purchased, but had to rely on the opinions of ecconomists and government statements on the ecconomy. My point is that if you sit around being cautious, you'll never do anything or get anywhere. While the poster may not have made the soundest decision, I don't think it was any worse than the decision I had to make to buy a house. The government is guilty of blatent lies over the economy in the past few years.

enda1

squonk wrote: »

enda1 the point is that while that poster's actions aren't something I would do, I have to also stand back and say that I had the luxury of getting on the property ladder much earlier in the boom, had a better earnings to mortgage repayment ratio at the time and a much mor reasonable expectation of being able to pay my way. I think the story is vastly different for peopel buying the past few years. I have to say that I had no idea what way the market was going to go when I purchased, but had to rely on the opinions of ecconomists and government statements on the ecconomy. My point is that if you sit around being cautious, you'll never do anything or get anywhere. While the poster may not have made the soundest decision, I don't think it was any worse than the decision I had to make to buy a house. The government is guilty of blatent lies over the economy in the past few years.

It was a completely different decision to yours. He said he wasn't buying to make a profiit so how does the change in market value of his property matter if is his "dream"?

Also you bought at a price you could afford. He didn't, he knew this then and knows it now - what's changed?

He made an enormous mistake and is looking for everyone ot give him a big cuddle and say its ok it was all a bad dream - well NO.

Seth Brundle

ninty9er wrote: »

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

I have been canvassed by two FF candidates and I was polite, etc. This doesn't mean that I will necessarily vote for them!

ninty9er wrote: »

If, as one of my counterparts experienced at JUST ONE door this evening, you slam your door in someones face because of a logo on a card, that shows more your ignorance than anything else.

Why? Maybe they are so angry that they feel that were they to talk to you then they would end up doing something they regret. Maybe they were wanting to eat their dinner or put their kids to bed rather than talk to a party that they feel has been associated with corruption, etc.

ninty9er wrote: »

Just because you've been made redundant, doesn't mean the entire road has, and just because the economic situation is affecting you doesn't mean that it's affecting everyone

Everyone is being affected. We are paying more in taxes/levies now. We are looking at greater cutbacks in health, education, etc. whilst the government looks to saving the banking industry. You think people are ignorant and you don't even realise this. Maybe FF are even more out of touch than we originally thought.

ninty9er wrote: »

so when I go to a door and ask people if they have any issues, it shows complete ignorance on their part if the answer is "you're canvassing for the wrong party". Why am I canvassing for the wrong party, and more to the point, considering I'm the only person that's knocked on the door instead of dumping a leaflet in, tell me what is affecting YOU. "you know damn well" isn't a good answer, and it tells me nothing I can pass to the candidate, who is more than likely with me anyway, which would enable him or her to help you.

In fairness, having a politician calling to my door will have absolutely zero impact on how I decide to vote. With regard to the two FF candidates who called to my door recently, one is a first time candidate, the other is well established yet has never called to my door before. Is he suddenly a good politician now?

ninty9er wrote: »

Politics is about serving people

Which people though? Serving the electorate or serving developers, friends in the banking industry, getting friends onto state boards, and for heading over to Manchester to suddenly find that folk are having a whip round for you, etc.

ninty9er wrote: »

Fianna Fáil is an organisation that is not limited to national government, community, local government and civic duties. And regardless of any opinion expressed anywhere, Fianna Fáil is an organisation whose parliamentary party will continue to exist, because many of you seem to forget that countries don't just need governments, they need oppositions too!

I agree but FF (and maybe the others too) really need to reevaluate their priorities and what they are supposed to stand for.
For far too long FF has allowed itself to be associated with dirty greasy underhanded methods which have not suited the greater good but instead has suited personal greed. They established a government structure that does not take responsibility for its own actions. Do you really want FF to represent this?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

I love all this hatred.

As soon as FG get in to power (hopefully minus one Enda Kenny) you're going to realise that they aren't any better.

CorkFenian

Ireland needs a Michael Moore (big fan of his early work not so much his mainstream.At least ideas got out there though)like character making a documentary of last 10 years...A massive problem in Ireland over past 10-15 years is that the average punter genuinely does not know the facts.Whether this is from reading the Daily Star and the whole jumbo roll that went with it.I don't know.And the true extent of the corruption. Failing that even a handbook with everything outlined in it.We are a small nation.There is no real excuse for not knowing this information.
People used to say when Bush was in power.."How can Americans be voting him in??"..Well look at us and Fianna Fail..The likes of O'Dea and Aherne are an absolute disgrace..Selective with their words due to the point of talking like there in opposition.Sickening.
Fianna Fail are too closely engrained in the Irish pysche to disappear overnight.There is no doubt in my mind if FG had have done this.There would have been a general election and they would have been gone last October\November.The simple fact of the matter is that there is no party better at dishing dirt than FF..Its dirtier and sneakier than any other party.There are people of a certain age who will always vote FF no matter what. The hardest thing about getting elected for FF was always getting the nomination in the first place. With the amount of questioning and scrutiny George Lee is receiving at the moment.It shows us up for the banana republic that we are.Cowen can wheel out likes of Manseragh or some other third rate non entity of a TD for TV.Cowen whose presence on our national radio and TV since last September has been non existant.Besides his Budget appearances.All this at "a time unprecendented in our history".Why isn't Cowen going on VB on TV3 or Primetime.Because he knows he f**ked up!!Simple as...

Sleazus

FF elected reps are immoral for putting their interests and popular short term votes ahead of the country and i think what they have done is unforgiveable.

Do you honestly think that any political party can afford to foresake "their interests and popular short term votes"? If you do, you don't seem to get Western liberal democracy. People are selfish idiots. They'd vote for the devil himself if he promised to abolish tax or shorten the working week. It's the way that government works. If you don't feed people's short-term short-sighted needs, you get voted out. Ideology and common sense don't come into it when it comes into pragmatic political thinking (at least in this country were we don't have a political divide) - Labour promised to cut tax if they got elected last time for crying out loud.

Even when doing things that need to be done (does anyone think we can afford to lose the banks?) the government will get flack because it doesn't directly and immediately benefit any interest group. Yes, the could have done better managing the bubble, but - if they had - they would have had one term in government and we'd be blaming Fine Gael for this mess we're in.

Case in point is the Christmas bonus for welfare claimants. People will moan that it's been taken away (and that's not to dismiss their point - it did make Christmas possible for those on benefits), but they forget who gave it to them. All of these perks that are being stripped away were given to shore-up support and they worked. Any other government would have done so anywhere else.

That's Western liberal democracy. The worst form of government. Except for all the others.

ninty9er

InFront wrote: »

This is what I mean by being out of touch. This kind of rise in unemployment does effect everybody, the economic downturn does actually effect everybody in some way.

I canvassed a teacher lastnight who said that he had a job, and sure the levy isn't great, but it had to happen. His words, not mine.

I canvassed a woman who invited the candidate in to speak with her husband and son and he came out with 3 promised no.1 votes. They are NOT affected by the current downturn.

Talk about being out of touch, get out on the doorsteps if you want to find out what out of touch is. I accept that some people are galled, but in an area where FF was never flavour of the month, I was surprised that there was only a reception like that at one door. Many people don't want our literature, but they're at least civil about it. But I'd rather they told us what exact situation has caused some of them to be visibly upset at the door. We're not knocking on doors just to ask for votes, we're knocking on doors to fix people's problems too.

Joey the lips wrote: »

3. The unions! There is no doubt Ireland is Fecked without a union! Was it not(Correct me) Ray McSharry who first set down with the unions and began the partnership talks. Remeber partnership 2000!

Have I lost you! Have you wondered why your house is so expensive! Because supply will always fall far short of demand! This is strictly controlled, The current glitch is temporary! Give it time and we will be as relient as ever on the building industry!

So you saw Davis Mc'S program and took precautions not to buy! But your house is falling in demand and price why! your house is falling in demand becuase the banks have cut the money its lending! 100% mortagages are virtually gone! cheap credit it there but getting credit is difficult!

3. The unions, The goverment in my opinion has failed to sit down propperly with the unions but it has made the best attempt to date. Charlie Haughey did not want to know about them. The fact that the unions display labours flag at election time is no coincidence ( even though I always objected to it) labours growth has come from the unions. Fianna Fail have always known this. This is why they sat down with the unions in partnership. Many sinn fein members have been union members most famous of these was Larry o toole the gateaux union rep! Not many fianna fail or fianna gael lads have been unions lads have they?

So you see my problem is this. Yes the goverment is messing up yes they are making mistakes! but is this there failure to manage what they have! I dont think so! I think this is failure on there behalf to take on the real problems and risk loosing its remaining support!

Do you think Fianna Gael will tackle these problems any different than Fianna Fail!!!!

Would you not be of the opinion if you really want radical change you need a labour goverment or sinn fein goverment!

Bertie Ahern was actually the first one to sit down with the unions in the 80s when he was Minister for Labour Affairs. He negotiated the first national wage agreement.

I've shouting SELL at my grandparents, who are retired shopkeepers and still own the shop, since 2004. Property prices were never sustainable at that level up to the peak and if you looked very closely all the signs were there. You didn't need to be an economist. Masses of empty estates should give it away. I still wouldn't buy as there is more to come.

Dob74 wrote: »

Not bad considering they have changed what they stand for almost completely around.
What ever happened to helping national industry.
Instead they are determined to save the banks. An industry that produces nothing, that just acts as a middle man between the people and there money.

Banks provide a service, and services is where the future lies, there's only so much sh1te people want to buy, but everyone needs banks.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

FF elected reps are immoral for putting their interests and popular short term votes ahead of the country and i think what they have done is unforgiveable. People knocking on doors for FF deserve all the criticism and anger people can muster directed at them as spokespeople for that party!

I challenge you to come and look at the community involvement of various candidates around the country and tell them to their faces that they're putting their own interests above the nation's

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Hopefully the good people of Ireland will hand as many as possible p45s to the self-serving gombeen party. God knows they deserve it.

You are aware that being a councillor isn't yet a salaried job in this country?

enda1 wrote: »

Its the government and banks' fault that he's in debt??

How about stepping back and realising, maybe its his fault?
Why did he believe that working seven days a week and scraping together a mortgage was a good idea/a sustainable way of living?

How easily everyone seems to have forgotten the lives of those before us and closed off the lives of those around us. Ask your parents, grandparents, old neighbours - no one would have made such horrendous decisions as he.

Life's not easy but that was a rediculously stupid decision to put himself in such a position, and how does the current value of the property matter anyway if he's going to be keeping it? Interest rates have plummeted further from when he got his mortgage so his repayments should be even less now too.

I don't get this country at all, is everyone so weak and selfish that they cant take the blame for their own cock ups?

I've never known any different, if it wasn't affordable, we didn't have it, and I'm only 22. My dad needs a new car this week so he's buying a 9 year old one that's been well minded and disposed of by someone who thinks the number on the plate is more important. He won't need to work 70 hours a week to pay for it, in fact €25 a week for a year will cover it. Similarly with our house, my parents could never afford a 6 figure mortgage, so they never took one, and they'll still be working until 65 to pay it, but at least it's affordable.

It is not the government's fault that people took 100% mortgages not being able to afford them, but even so the government is protecting people who were that foolish in the terms of bank recapitalisation agreements.

*And in any case, anyone who isn't a speculator has no reason to worry how much their house is worth. If you bought a home, its notional market value is irrelevant so long as you can pay the mortgage, which I know is an issue for some people, but it ALWAYS was, that is not something that happened overnight in September 2008, there were people who couldn't pay their mortgages in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007....since mortgages have existed there have been people who got themselves in too deep!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Sleazus wrote: »

Do you honestly think that any political party can afford to foresake "their interests and popular short term votes"? If you do, you don't seem to get Western liberal democracy. People are selfish idiots. They'd vote for the devil himself if he promised to abolish tax or shorten the working week. It's the way that government works. If you don't feed people's short-term short-sighted needs, you get voted out. Ideology and common sense don't come into it when it comes into pragmatic political thinking (at least in this country were we don't have a political divide) - Labour promised to cut tax if they got elected last time for crying out loud.

Even when doing things that need to be done (does anyone think we can afford to lose the banks?) the government will get flack because it doesn't directly and immediately benefit any interest group. Yes, the could have done better managing the bubble, but - if they had - they would have had one term in government and we'd be blaming Fine Gael for this mess we're in.

Case in point is the Christmas bonus for welfare claimants. People will moan that it's been taken away (and that's not to dismiss their point - it did make Christmas possible for those on benefits), but they forget who gave it to them. All of these perks that are being stripped away were given to shore-up support and they worked. Any other government would have done so anywhere else.

That's Western liberal democracy. The worst form of government. Except for all the others.

Exactly: Democracy = You Get What You Vote For.

The problem with democracy (or any other model for that matter.) is that it is run by humans for humans and humans are greedy feckers.

Seth Brundle

ninty9er wrote: »

They are NOT affected by the current downturn.

How are they avoiding paying the levies, the increased taxes. Maybe they have no use for the health or education sectors. Well done on finding such a rarity in this country!

Pedro K

ninty9er wrote: »

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

The standard of living improved because the economy grew on a sand pit.
The government had money to piss away, and piss away they did.
Now they're saying we can all expect a 10% cut in standard of living?
That's a lot easier to handle with a 100k salary with benefits.

I will politely be telling any FF's at the door not to waste their time on me, and canvass someone who might actually vote for them.

The current government are a joke. Their budget at the end of 08 was a joke, their emergency budget this year was a joke. They want to stimulate the economy, and somehow the best way to do this is by taking money off the people who can't afford it?

Our current government have turned us from the golden boy of europe into the laughing stock.

I just wish we were more like the French with regards to politics. Protest! Kick up stink! Throw the rattle out of the pram!

But we aren't...

Thus, our only hope of voicing our frustration at the current bunch of cowen clowns is the upcoming elections.

Call me ignorant if you want for adopting this stance, I don't care. My mind is made up. I will not under any circumstances be giving a single vote to FF.

Right now our government is ignorant of it's people.

EDIT:
also, Brian Cowen seems completely delusional and seems to think everyone is fully behind him. The only reason I'd stand behind him is to give him a kick up the arse.
Voting Fianna Fail would only feed his notion.

"And now, the end is near,
And so I face, the final curtain"

CorkFenian

ninty9er wrote: »

I canvassed a teacher lastnight who said that he had a job, and sure the levy isn't great, but it had to happen. His words, not mine.

I canvassed a woman who invited the candidate in to speak with her husband and son and he came out with 3 promised no.1 votes. They are NOT affected by the current downturn.

Talk about being out of touch, get out on the doorsteps if you want to find out what out of touch is. I accept that some people are galled, but in an area where FF was never flavour of the month, I was surprised that there was only a reception like that at one door. Many people don't want our literature, but they're at least civil about it. But I'd rather they told us what exact situation has caused some of them to be visibly upset at the door. We're not knocking on doors just to ask for votes, we're knocking on doors to fix people's problems too.

So the teacher said they would vote FF no problem did they??As well as the couple??Let me guess..They said that FF had done a good job inspite of an unprecedented global economic downturn!

Redbilby

None of the above matters unless YOU VOTE..............over 40% of the population didnt bother last time so how can you whinge if the collective populace cant get off their arse and get to the polling booth?

Make the parties take notice by voting, protesting, writing to your local candidates, bombard them with stuff - maybe then you will get some sort of service out of a wholly overpaid and expensive system. Why do we need some many levels of Gov't anyway? How many TD's, Seanad members, County, City and Town Coucil members does this tiny country really need??? So over-governed and yet so uncared for when it gets down to the grassroots. Get out and VOTE!

Change will only come about when enough of the little people stand up together, not whinging but determined to see improvement, and demand their rights. Get rid of the dynastical approach to candidates and get some real people in, make them earn their keep and be accountable to their employers, US!

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

Mistakes have been made, but since other people (nobody on this thread) have put politics and soccer in the same bracket, you don't stop supporting a team because they're playing **** or badly managed, so when you join a party I have much more respect for you if you can stick with it and try to change it rather than give up like a complete loser and move on to the next crowd, a bit like a particular former Fianna Fáil member who was kicked out of FF, subsequently joined FG, where he was kicked out and is now some sort of "guru" at Libertas.

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

Just because you've been made redundant, doesn't mean the entire road has, and just because the economic situation is affecting you doesn't mean that it's affecting everyone, so when I go to a door and ask people if they have any issues, it shows complete ignorance on their part if the answer is "you're canvassing for the wrong party". Why am I canvassing for the wrong party, and more to the point, considering I'm the only person that's knocked on the door instead of dumping a leaflet in, tell me what is affecting YOU. "you know damn well" isn't a good answer, and it tells me nothing I can pass to the candidate, who is more than likely with me anyway, which would enable him or her to help you.

Politics is about serving people, and from what I heard on the doorsteps tonight, soem people are dissatisfied with how things are going in general in the economy, but the vast majority of people are getting on with their lives and it's still as irrelevant to them as it's always been who is in government.

"Mistakes have been made" has to be the understatement of the year.

I suppsoe it could be worse, we could have declared war on the US and harboured Al Queida

So you are not using the canvassing system I saw the other night.
Using young canvassers mainly becuase they quickly tap on door leave leaflet and move on.
I thought the they were in training for the mini marathon.
In a cull-de-sac of 8 houses they avoided speaking to anyone in all but two.
Nice going.
Labour canvassers were two old guys who waited and stopped to chat.

So you managed to meet someone that has not being affected.
Well holy God, they mustn't smoke, have kids, or ever had a job :rolleyes:

Yeah politics used to be about serving people, all of the people, and not just the party supporters and hangers on :rolleyes:

You know how your candidates and yourself can help me ?
Go away and never come back

ninty9er wrote: »

I canvassed a teacher lastnight who said that he had a job, and sure the levy isn't great, but it had to happen. His words, not mine.

Woudl this be one of your teacher or teacher trainee friends that you quoted famously as knowing the real problem with education was lazy teachers and class size would make no difference ?

ninty9er wrote: »

I canvassed a woman who invited the candidate in to speak with her husband and son and he came out with 3 promised no.1 votes. They are NOT affected by the current downturn.

Would they be your relatives ?
They may be using a tactic I had thought about.
Be nice, slow them down so that they can't annoy more people.
BTW don't believe everything people tell you.
Sure didn't Biffo tell us all the fundatmentals were sound :rolleyes:

ninty9er wrote: »

Talk about being out of touch, get out on the doorsteps if you want to find out what out of touch is. I accept that some people are galled, but in an area where FF was never flavour of the month, I was surprised that there was only a reception like that at one door. Many people don't want our literature, but they're at least civil about it. But I'd rather they told us what exact situation has caused some of them to be visibly upset at the door. We're not knocking on doors just to ask for votes, we're knocking on doors to fix people's problems too.

Yeah ff are good at fixing things alright :rolleyes:

ninty9er wrote: »

Banks provide a service, and services is where the future lies, there's only so much sh1te people want to buy, but everyone needs banks.

Bertie didn't need them :rolleyes:

ninty9er wrote: »

You are aware that being a councillor isn't yet a salaried job in this country?

Yes but it has damm nice expenses and for most it is a first rung on the ladder to nice cushy Dail seat.
Also as can be seen by one of your former party colleagues in Galway it helpes you get fences built :rolleyes:

ninty9er wrote: »

...
It is not the government's fault that people took 100% mortgages not being able to afford them, but even so the government is protecting people who were that foolish in the terms of bank recapitalisation agreements.
....s

Jeeze you'd swear Biffo wasn't the minister of finance who allowed speculators and investors keep buying, all the while house prices were getting pushed up for FTBs and people that actually needed palce to live.
Ever heard of Section 23 or Section 50 ?
Who did Dept of Finance and ultimately the central bank and regulator answer to in some fashion.

Jeeze whizz they are protecting people alright. They will not allow reposeessions but we will stick you and your kids with billions of a bill :rolleyes:
Yeah that's sweet alright.

squonk

kbannon wrote: »

How are they avoiding paying the levies, the increased taxes. Maybe they have no use for the health or education sectors. Well done on finding such a rarity in this country!

Well said. I think that canvasser is being very selective about what he's saying. Look, it's as simple as this, we're all affected. We're being and are going to be even more increasingly robbed left right and center now for the next few years to make up for cronyistic practices over the past few years by our current govt. If Cowan et al were really serious about sharing the pain they'd have cut their own salaries to a meaningful degree. He gets paid more than Brown and Obama and for what? The average TD's salary is 3 times the industrial wage. There are more representatives per capita here than in the UK which is a world power., I could go on but frankly I'm sick of a taoiseach who doesn't ever seem to be around these days telling me I have to accept a drop n my standard of living yet who is raking it in himself, along with his mates. He's also the guy who was the former Minister for Finance so it's not like all of this just crept up on him. If there are genuinely people out there who are NOT affected by this recession, lucky them. I think the examples being given are of the core FF supporters who stick with the party come hell or high water. For the rest of us in the real world, time to open our wallets and kiss our cash goodbye.

destroyer

ninty9er wrote: »

I canvassed a teacher lastnight who said that he had a job, and sure the levy isn't great, but it had to happen. His words, not mine.


I WAS BEING SARCASTIC :rolleyes:

I canvassed a woman who invited the candidate in to speak with her husband and son and he came out with 3 promised no.1 votes. They are NOT affected by the current downturn.

THEY'RE STILL BUSTING A GUT LAUGHING AT YOU .

deluded.

Dob74

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

FF will lose more than that. I truly believe they are facing meldown in these elections. They will lose 50+ council seats and get only 2 definite Euros in East and South, although they could conceivable get 4 at a push. Hopefully the good people of Ireland will hand as many as possible p45s to the self-serving gombeen party. God knows they deserve it.

FF deserve to be wiped out. But they got 41% in the last general election.
So even if they fall to 25% they will be able to hold most of there council seats.
They did badly in the last local election so they dont have alot of soft seat to lose.
Most of there canidates are running as if they are independents so they should just scrap over the line.
The Mep's are interesting, if Ganley wins in the west will FF take a seat there.
Crowley will be dependant on transfers in the south.

InFront

ninty9er wrote: »

I canvassed a teacher lastnight who said that he had a job, and sure the levy isn't great, but it had to happen. His words, not mine.

Of course it's necessary, yes it has to happen and yes most people fully accept that and want to do their bit. That does not mean it isn't effecting them, there is a big difference.

Talk about being out of touch, get out on the doorsteps if you want to find out what out of touch is. I accept that some people are galled, but in an area where FF was never flavour of the month, I was surprised that there was only a reception like that at one door.

I am active in politics as much as I can be. I am on rotations for college at the moment and am getting a huge anti-FF feedback from a lot of people who say they were lifelong supporters of FF. They have no reason to tell me otherwise as far as I can see because I leave my FG loyalty at the door.

What you say makes me smile because it reminds me of a FF local election candidate I was talking to last week who told me proudly, if somewhat tragically, that she had knocked on 300 doors in her constituency and almost everybody supposedly said they'd vote for her. She had one negative response! Knowing that constituency and the candidate, this is ridiculous.
There are a few possibilities. Either candidates like this are blatantly lying and deluding themselves, or the voters are blatently lying and deluding their candidates. I have always been a bit sceptical of canvassing as a poll but more so when I hear stories like yours or hers.

You get the same kind of inflated opinions in FG and Labour and other parties, of course. I'm just talking about FF because they seem most likely for a sharp decline. I would remember to be very wary of voters' promises. Such promises can be as fickle and changeable and perhaps as dishonest as many politicians! Maybe it's karma.

squonk

InFront wrote: »

Of course it's necessary, yes it has to happen and yes most people fully accept that and want to do their bit. That does not mean it isn't effecting them, there is a big difference.


I am active in politics as much as I can be. I am on rotations for college at the moment and am getting a huge anti-FF feedback from a lot of people who say they were lifelong supporters of FF. They have no reason to tell me otherwise as far as I can see because I leave my FG loyalty at the door.

What you say makes me smile because it reminds me of a FF local election candidate I was talking to last week who told me proudly, if somewhat tragically, that she had knocked on 300 doors in her constituency and almost everybody supposedly said they'd vote for her. She had one negative response! Knowing that constituency and the candidate, this is ridiculous.
There are a few possibilities. Either candidates like this are blatantly lying and deluding themselves, or the voters are blatently lying and deluding their candidates. I have always been a bit sceptical of canvassing as a poll but more so when I hear stories like yours or hers.

You get the same kind of inflated opinions in FG and Labour and other parties, of course. I'm just talking about FF because they seem most likely for a sharp decline. I would remember to be very wary of voters' promises. Such promises can be as fickle and changeable and perhaps as dishonest as many politicians! Maybe it's karma.

A lot of it is that people want to be nice and don't want to actually use the word NO, so, being very Irish, it's easier to tell someone you'll vote for them and fob them off. The other case is that it's easier to tell someone you'll vote for them to get rid of them because the kids are acting up in the background or the dinner is nearly ready. On the other hand as well, if they do get a seat, you might need to call around to their clinic tomorrow or after for something so it's better to lie and keep in with them. All that matters is what votes are cast on polling day. I believe you have your core party supporters who you know will vote for you but beyond that, it's anyone's guess.

Personally speaking I would tell a candidate straight out that I wasn't going to vote for them. I think it is fair really and if they hadn't convinced me in what I had heard, there's no point in wasting their time either. If I do need to call on them for something then well and good and if they do help me out, they'll get my vote next time round, even if they are the opposite side of the house from those I'd usually support. Simple as that.

Erin Go Brath

ninty9er wrote: »

I challenge you to come and look at the community involvement of various candidates around the country and tell them to their faces that they're putting their own interests above the nation's

With respect thats a complete copout. If someone knocks on a door representing FF they will have to deal with the flak caused by FF, their leaders and their policies. You are the first in the line of fire. Just like if I was working in a call centre and someone rang in complaining their computer wasn't working i couldn't just say "Well i didn't make it" or "i just answer the phones what do you want me to do". Thats life, i feel a certain sympathy for the honest decent candidates who automatically are tainted with the corruption which seems endemic within FF at this stage, but it was their choice to join that party so they will have to live with the fallout. Its typical of Irish politics though, everybody abdicating responsibility for everything.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

Mistakes have been made, but since other people (nobody on this thread) have put politics and soccer in the same bracket, you don't stop supporting a team because they're playing **** or badly managed, so when you join a party I have much more respect for you if you can stick with it and try to change it rather than give up like a complete loser and move on to the next crowd, a bit like a particular former Fianna Fáil member who was kicked out of FF, subsequently joined FG, where he was kicked out and is now some sort of "guru" at Libertas.

Fianna Fáil is not in terminal decline, it's just adapting at a slower pace than I would like to the world around it.

I was out canvassing tonight, and got some abuse and some very warm welcomes, because even though many people have short memories and don't remember how much their standard of living has improved over the last 10 years, there are those that do and those that realise that a party is something to which people affiliate, but don't always agree with.

If, as one of my counterparts experienced at JUST ONE door this evening, you slam your door in someones face because of a logo on a card, that shows more your ignorance than anything else.

If you realistically have something wrong, don't expect us to be mind readers.

Just because you've been made redundant, doesn't mean the entire road has, and just because the economic situation is affecting you doesn't mean that it's affecting everyone, so when I go to a door and ask people if they have any issues, it shows complete ignorance on their part if the answer is "you're canvassing for the wrong party". Why am I canvassing for the wrong party, and more to the point, considering I'm the only person that's knocked on the door instead of dumping a leaflet in, tell me what is affecting YOU. "you know damn well" isn't a good answer, and it tells me nothing I can pass to the candidate, who is more than likely with me anyway, which would enable him or her to help you.

Politics is about serving people, and from what I heard on the doorsteps tonight, soem people are dissatisfied with how things are going in general in the economy, but the vast majority of people are getting on with their lives and it's still as irrelevant to them as it's always been who is in government.

Fianna Fáil is an organisation that is not limited to national government, community, local government and civic duties. And regardless of any opinion expressed anywhere, Fianna Fáil is an organisation whose parliamentary party will continue to exist, because many of you seem to forget that countries don't just need governments, they need oppositions too!

The football and politics analogy are simply wrong. You inherit a team (or choose it, when it comes to the English Premiership), however, ones politics need to be selected, and if one evolves politically, then a shift in political parties may be just what the doctor ordered.

This business of beating the drum about "improved standards of living" are a red herring. While they are appreciated, they are of no real benefit to those who now occupy the dole ques, and stand waiting for food parcels at Capucian House, or wait outside Londis on Stephen's Green to apply for one job, which will be failer modest in terms of job satisfation, and payment.

Trying to change FF is not going to happen. I was in FF for several years, and the last straw was a KBC policy evening in 2005,w hen the most redundant, irrelevant, and regressive policy was discussed and put forward. Since then, we have seen the development of a government, within a government. There is a clear disconnect between Cowen, Coughlan, and Lenihan, and the rest of the Government, and by extension the PP. That extra layer of bureaucracy (unoffficialy or otherwise), is a major problem, which highlights how promianat the cummanns (negated by HQ intervention in the Locals), and the general membership. Imagine how disconnected a member with absolutly no status is ?

Change will come, when the current cabinet is ejected. Its looking like that could be sooner rather than later

destroyer

Joey the lips wrote: »

For the record I am not a fianna failure but just to look at the problems.

1. A lot of people blame Fianna Fail for the house situation. I saw David Mc Williams in search of the popes children years ago he warned of the house situation. He warned that we are relying to much on this market. But what were we all doing when this program was running? We were prob watching CSI or soprannos or something!


Why was it David McWilliams and not the FF gov. warning us. Perhaps they were watching CSI or sopranos as well, (a crime show and a gangster show, hmmm....)


2. Now what does Ireland do best! We steel jobs from america. Like china poland and asia are steeling jobs from us! We encourage employers here with our low corporation tax and benefits! when this runs out they fack off! Is this Fianna Fails fault? I cant see how! The other economies are just doing what we done better!

The problem didn't arise from the multi-national sector. Almost all those you see in the dole queue now were employed by Irish people
building Irish houses for Irish people who didn't need them and with tax breaks thrown in as well.
We were supposed to be attracting more high quality jobs because of our supposedly educated workforce,(steal not steel)

3. The unions! There is no doubt Ireland is Fecked without a union! Was it not(Correct me) Ray McSharry who first set down with the unions and began the partnership talks. Remeber partnership 2000!

Now there is no doubt in my mind that Fianna fail and Fianna Gael are very simular in there approch on these situations but its the workings of these situations that failure occurs!

As happened in the recent partnership talks.

1. Its a know fact not my rantings but confirmable by leading economists that 80% of development land in the dublin and surounding areas is owned bu 20% of the majour developers. When the goverment re zones more land this is usually bought up straight away by these developers. So why was this problem not identified long ago! it was! by both fianna fail and fianna gael the problem is these developers are majour contributors to Fianna fails and fianna Gaels political donations why! to protect this cartel they have! In fact the only 2 partys that consistantly complain about this cartel is labour and Sinn Fein. The others just arent given the airtime.

Have I lost you! Have you wondered why your house is so expensive! Because supply will always fall far short of demand! This is strictly controlled, The current glitch is temporary! Give it time and we will be as relient as ever on the building industry!

So you saw Davis Mc'S program and took precautions not to buy! But your house is falling in demand and price why! your house is falling in demand becuase the banks have cut the money its lending! 100% mortagages are virtually gone! cheap credit it there but getting credit is difficult!

2. Outsourching! Ireland technology boom is based on steeling jobs from other countrys! so why do we give out when its done to us! again if I refere to labour and sinn feins policy. Was it not Michael D Higgins that pointed out many years the importance of home grown industries! Sinn feinns stance is also well known on home grown industries! So why is it we constantly chase international employers and fail to focus on home grown industries! Its only recently Brien Cowen wrote to banks asking them to go easy on home grown industries in trouble

3. The unions, The goverment in my opinion has failed to sit down propperly with the unions but it has made the best attempt to date. Charlie Haughey did not want to know about them. The fact that the unions display labours flag at election time is no coincidence ( even though I always objected to it) labours growth has come from the unions. Fianna Fail have always known this. This is why they sat down with the unions in partnership. Many sinn fein members have been union members most famous of these was Larry o toole the gateaux union rep! Not many fianna fail or fianna gael lads have been unions lads have they?

So you see my problem is this. Yes the goverment is messing up yes they are making mistakes! but is this there failure to manage what they have! I dont think so! I think this is failure on there behalf to take on the real problems and risk loosing its remaining support!

Do you think Fianna Gael will tackle these problems any different than Fianna Fail!!!!

Would you not be of the opinion if you really want radical change you need a labour goverment or sinn fein goverment!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Erin Go Brath

Dob74 wrote: »

FF deserve to be wiped out. But they got 41% in the last general election.
So even if they fall to 25% they will be able to hold most of there council seats.
They did badly in the last local election so they dont have alot of soft seat to lose.
Most of there canidates are running as if they are independents so they should just scrap over the line.
The Mep's are interesting, if Ganley wins in the west will FF take a seat there.
Crowley will be dependant on transfers in the south.

I haven't done the sums on each of the local area constituencies but there is a definite huge downward trend in support for FF country wide and anti-FF sentiment is rampant which has to translate into some seat losses. They will unquestioningly lose seats galore in this election even on their poor enough 2004 totals. FG, Lab, and SF will all gain some of the fallen FF seats.

Europe is harder to predict. I do believe that we will see for the first time a Euro constituency returning no FFers, and maybe even 2 constituencies. Heres hoping anyway!

Joey the lips

destroyer wrote: »

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So your jist is an economist advised us of problems with the economy and the building sector ie house building is the problem. So whats the solution!

Forgot that dident you

Dohhhh!!!!!!!!

uRbaN

In my opinion the best thing that can possible happen right now is for Fainna Fail to take a hiding in the local elections and lose a general election within a year.

Let them take a beating and like everyone else in a working environment right now come back leaner and hungrier for the work.

A FF canvasser told one of my customers that his party "Put that Audi in your driveway". This kind of stuff boils my blood.

bcirl03

uRbaN wrote: »

A FF canvasser told one of my customers that his party "Put that Audi in your driveway". This kind of stuff boils my blood.

I wonder did the FF canvasser also remind your customer how much VRT they paid for it, road tax, tax on petrol \ diesel, toll roads etc etc etc that go to the government to use it.

Oh I'd have lost the rag with that FF waster.

97i9y3941

i expect the usual tricks,promise everything,take out the goods like way parents take out presents for kids at xmas,people vote them in,then put them back in cupboard when the election is over.

Seth Brundle

ninty9er wrote: »

Banks provide a service, and services is where the future lies, there's only so much sh1te people want to buy, but everyone needs banks.

jmayo wrote: »

Bertie didn't need them :rolleyes:

touché

ninty9er

kbannon wrote: »

How are they avoiding paying the levies, the increased taxes. Maybe they have no use for the health or education sectors. Well done on finding such a rarity in this country!

Everybody is paying levies, but in many cases that is currently being evened out by lower interest rates. Not a deliberate policy decision that could have been taken but one that's real and doesn mean people aren't worse off on the whole.

If you're retired and your kids are at college you won't be affected. That's just one situation. It displays a clear lack of cop-on to imply that everyone out there is suffering to within an inch of not eating next week.

CorkFenian wrote: »

So the teacher said they would vote FF no problem did they??As well as the couple??Let me guess..They said that FF had done a good job inspite of an unprecedented global economic downturn!

He said he would keep the candidate in mind because what had been done locally was more important to him, these being LOCAL elections, he did say that he does not currently see himself voting for FF at the next General Election, but that's a whole different kettle of fish, he will not be voting along party lines for local elections as he doesn't see that it has any bearing on how the council operates.

The couple said likewise.

jmayo wrote: »

Woudl this be one of your teacher or teacher trainee friends that you quoted famously as knowing the real problem with education was lazy teachers and class size would make no difference ?



Would they be your relatives ?

Nope, none of those people live in the area. Believe it or not I have friends from beyond the city boundary.:rolleyes:

squonk wrote: »

Personally speaking I would tell a candidate straight out that I wasn't going to vote for them. I think it is fair really and if they hadn't convinced me in what I had heard, there's no point in wasting their time either. If I do need to call on them for something then well and good and if they do help me out, they'll get my vote next time round, even if they are the opposite side of the house from those I'd usually support. Simple as that.

I know this exists, and got a whole lot of it in the General Election 2 years ago, but for every 5 no.1s we were promised we probably got 1 and the other 3 were no.2s, with the rest being the polite "I don't want to say no" householder.

kbannon wrote: »

touché

Well done:rolleyes: