In Search of the Popes Children

Tawny

Did anyone see this last night on BBC 4? When was it filmed? It seemed really out of date.

And the people it protrayed? Does anyone actually know anyone like that? It made everyone seem really shallow and just interested in keeping up with the neighbours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kjjrt

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

burgess1

I think it was broadcast by RTÉ about 2 years ago.

Tawny

That explains it.

It would be interesting to see where the people that took part are now. Its hard to know, a lot of people seem to be really suffering at the mo but then again a lot of people are still doing grand it seems.

ionix5891

i remember seeing that a while ago couldn't remember the name tho, so thanks


didn't the presenter in that warn us that we are living of cheap german credit?

Belfast

also a book
Format:Paperback
ISBN: 9780717141722
Gill & Macmillan

Publication Date:May 2006

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/the-popes-children-book/

mike65

Last nights showing was preceeded by a short update, as Williams noted the huge change in a few years.

djpbarry

Probably going to be seeing a lot more of this muppet now that George Lee has left our screens.

I didn't see the complete series (when it was originally broadcast on RTE), but I do remember watching one episode and being slightly angered by the great big brush strokes he was using to characterise the population. Although admittedly, my negative impression of the series was probably heavily influenced by the fact that I can’t stand the condescending little prick.

greendom

djpbarry wrote: »

Probably going to be seeing a lot more of this muppet now that George Lee has left our screens.

I didn't see the complete series (when it was originally broadcast on RTE), but I do remember watching one episode and being slightly angered by the great big brush strokes he was using to characterise the population. Although admittedly, my negative impression of the series was probably heavily influenced by the fact that I can’t stand the condescending little prick.

He knows his stuff though - he certainly predicted the huge collapse in the economy long before it happened.

mike65

As I said on tv forum

Dunno what the reaction was at the time but he wasn't wrong. Its a pity his progs tend to be so flashy in their presentation, it obscured the message to a degree or made it easy to dismiss.

Belfast

greendom wrote: »

He knows his stuff though - he certainly predicted the huge collapse in the economy long before it happened.

The collapse was not that hard to see coming.
The problem most people did not want to see it coming.

greendom

Belfast wrote: »

The collapse was not that hard to see coming.
The problem most people did not want to see it coming.

It's easy to say that now - Hindsight is a wonderful thing - it's a shame it doesn't work in reverse

djpbarry

greendom wrote: »

It's easy to say that now - Hindsight is a wonderful thing

Organisations such as the IMF, OECD and the ESRI, as well as stockbrokers such as Davy, had been warning that Irish property prices were seriously over-inflated since as far back as 2005 - McWilliams was certainly not alone in predictioning a crash (if indeed they were his predictions).

O'Morris

Belfast wrote: »

also a book
Format:Paperback
ISBN: 9780717141722
Gill & Macmillan

Publication Date:May 2006

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/the-popes-children-book/

Do you notice anything strange about the picture on the cover of the book? Look at the East-Asian man on the left of the picture with the Lee Harvey Oswald type shadow. Do you not think he looks out of place among the rest of the crowd. It's the same with the hispanic-looking woman with her finger on her lip. Those two characters look far too serious to have been original members of the that crowd.

It would be interesting to know what point red Dave was trying to make by tampering with the image like that.

mike65

I think you need to go back to the Conspiracy Theories forum.

I wonder how many of tonights interview subjects are looking back in anger, saddled with Bulgaian properties they can't shift.

greendom

djpbarry wrote: »

Organisations such as the IMF, OECD and the ESRI, as well as stockbrokers such as Davy, had been warning that Irish property prices were seriously over-inflated since as far back as 2005 - McWilliams was certainly not alone in predictioning a crash (if indeed they were his predictions).

The general chatter back then though was of a soft landing- not too many saw this cataclysm coming

Joey the lips

It ran 2 years ago or longer. Read the book as well, Its sad people did not listen to him! It also followed by the Generation game which was equally good!

Its very funny we manage to see programs remotely located on BBC4 and we miss them on RTE!

Both are brilliant books! Even if the moments have passed they give you a good insite

I am a decklander! for the benefit of the book!

Dob74

djpbarry wrote: »

Organisations such as the IMF, OECD and the ESRI, as well as stockbrokers such as Davy, had been warning that Irish property prices were seriously over-inflated since as far back as 2005 - McWilliams was certainly not alone in predictioning a crash (if indeed they were his predictions).

Unfortunately Prime Time and most other current affair shows kept paradeing Dan MacLuaghin and the likes out to give our economic forecasts.
They where never challenged or made state what interest they had in the forecasts given out.(probably to do with advertising the banks where paying for)
Since we own the banks its time to fire these guys for gross incompetents

sneakyST

i watched it again last night online - I found him quite condesending to be honest in his portrayal of DIY man and yummy mummy etc. Typical Irish thing to do his take a swipe at people who are doing well. We all didnt by stuff with the banks money - I do subscribe to the philosophy "if I have it i'll spend it" and why not.

mike65

So thus you missed the whole point! - The population as a whole was in hock even if you didn't happen to be.

sneakyST

mike65 wrote: »

So thus you missed the whole point! - The population as a whole was in hock even if you didn't happen to be.

Not really - I fail to see how sniping at people for sending their kids to "better" schools has to do with being in debt.....a link which he couldnt make. Just silly comments about spending money. Im not saying that his arguments about debt and spending arent valid but a lot was just time fillers.

O'Morris

He looks like a hitman for the Yakuza.

mike65

McWilliams point about gaelscoile was/is that it was part of an aspirational lifestyle choice - choices tend to be bought on credit. I didn't view it as 'have a go' at the Foxrocks mummys, merely observing how they behave.

sneakyST

O'Morris wrote: »

He looks like a hitman for the Yakuza.

And further more if I want to send my dog through a car wash then thats none of his business no idea what that was about.....

sneakyST

mike65 wrote: »

McWilliams point about gaelscoile was/is that it was part of an aspirational lifestyle choice - choices tend to be bought on credit. I didn't view it as 'have a go' at the Foxrocks mummys, merely observing how they behave.

I understand where you are coming from but to portray that everything was being bought by credit is just wrong. Did I borrow money - hell yes - but was it a rare occassion that after the missus and I got paid each month that there would be 10 or 11 grand sitting in the bank? no and we werent the only ones.

mickd

Anybody can predict a crash its like saying it going to rain sometime. If you watch tonight's episode he goes to Germany where he comes up with a spectacular theory that German pensioners money is being invested in Ireland as cheap credit. When the Germans pensioners want to spend their money this will trigger a recession in Ireland. At no point did Mc Williams mention the sub-prime issue in the US. He maintained last night that the banks were not taking any risks now we know they were. On every substantive point he has been wrong. I would describe himself, Lee and Hobbs as 'celebrity economists' who posit a view which suits their view of the world. However this view proves to be more off the mark rather than anyway accurate

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

It would be interesting to know what point red Dave was trying to make by tampering with the image like that.

Buy my book.

markopantelic

I really liked this book. It was a nice social commentary with maby a few labels thrown in but funny.

I loved the 'Denver more than Denmark' line.

eamonnm79

A line that struck a chord with me was "Dont be the Paddy who is Paddy last"
Luckily I sold my house in Aug 2006 after reading it.

It just sounded right!

Now dont ask what i did with the profits.
Long gone! But If I meet Mc williams i owe him a drink.
I also used to love Agenda. Best Irish current affairs show ive seen.

MG

Dob74 wrote: »

Unfortunately Prime Time and most other current affair shows kept paradeing Dan MacLuaghin and the likes out to give our economic forecasts.
They where never challenged or made state what interest they had in the forecasts given out.(probably to do with advertising the banks where paying for)
Since we own the banks its time to fire these guys for gross incompetents

Pope's children was originally shown on RTE. And what about George Lee? Dan O'Brien was also often on Prime Time urging caution. The IMF, the central bank, The Economist - they all said the same.

There's no point saying that there was a media bias towards positive economic news at the time. In reality there was plenty of information there to show what was coming. People don't want to face up to the reality that they just didn't want to listen to the bad news.

You only have to listen to some of the people on Pope's children to hear the hubris and the greed. If you didn't listen, tough. Those who did will prosper and deservedly so.

Richard Curran - he of the Future Shock documentary - spoke on the radio about the anger he experienced after the programme. He was consoled by his postman "People are angry because they don't want to hear what in their hearts they know to be true".

Firetrap

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me how people don't think they saw people on TV/radio warning us about the dangers of the property bubble. I'm not a fan of David McWilliams' gimmcky labelling styles (yer Decklanders, Yummy Mummies etc.) but I guess it's just a way to make economics more accessible. As an aside, it would be great if RTE would show Richard Curran's Future Shock programme again..now that would make for interesting viewing

MaxFlower

greendom wrote: »

It's easy to say that now - Hindsight is a wonderful thing - it's a shame it doesn't work in reverse

I think you're confusing hindsight with common sense.

greendom wrote: »

The general chatter back then though was of a soft landing- not too many saw this cataclysm coming

Unless our (Irelands) recession turns worse, I think we are experiencing a soft landing.

In the states they are tearing down brand new estates. I have a friend in California who can look out his window and see working/middle class people who have fallen on hard times living in tents in the park.

We have a guy at work who went back to Latvia after being in Ireland for a few years. Things are so dire over there he's back here again, and happy to be.

Firetrap

Over here, there's the safety net of the state to stop you having to go live in a tent. Am I right in saying that in the USA, your dole (or whatever they call it over there) stops after a while and you're on your own, matey?

Dob74

MG wrote: »

Pope's children was originally shown on RTE. And what about George Lee? Dan O'Brien was also often on Prime Time urging caution. The IMF, the central bank, The Economist - they all said the same.

There's no point saying that there was a media bias towards positive economic news at the time. In reality there was plenty of information there to show what was coming. People don't want to face up to the reality that they just didn't want to listen to the bad news.

You only have to listen to some of the people on Pope's children to hear the hubris and the greed. If you didn't listen, tough. Those who did will prosper and deservedly so.

Richard Curran - he of the Future Shock documentary - spoke on the radio about the anger he experienced after the programme. He was consoled by his postman "People are angry because they don't want to hear what in their hearts they know to be true".

Dan O'Brien only started to be on Prime Time in the last year or so.
Until then it was McLauglin and the like. People who worked for banks, estate agents etc. Who had a clear conflict of interest but where never questioned on it.
The Pope's Children was only produced when it was too late.:mad:

A house should not be considered a luxary. It is a neccessity, the snakes in the Banks have been let off. They dont have to hand back there bonuses that where given out, based on fictitious profits.
It's the 90% of people on the bottom who are getting screwed as usual.
While the top dogs get a free lunch on our backs

ionix5891

Dob74 wrote: »

A house should not be considered a luxary. It is a neccessity,

you missed a word

owning a house is a HUGE luxury

and thats why people rent as theres a NEED for shelter

people own houses as theres a WANT to own "own" shelter but one pays a premium for that

owning a house is not a fundamental human right as some Irish people think, your earn and pay for the privilige

luxury items are WANTS, necessities are NEEDS please dont mix up the 2

Dob74

ionix5891 wrote: »

you missed a word

owning a house is a HUGE luxury

and thats why people rent as theres a NEED for shelter

people own houses as theres a WANT to own "own" shelter but one pays a premium for that

owning a house is not a fundamental human right as some Irish people think, your earn and pay for the privilige

luxury items are WANTS, necessities are NEEDS please dont mix up the 2

But the only way to afford to own your own house is to get a mortgage.
Which is just another form of renting.
Since we dont have proper laws for longterm renting and leasing.
Buying a house and having it financied by a bank, which in a sence owns the house. Is just another way of renting.

Anyway the cost of construction including labour and material, of a house is less than 100k.
So house prices where manipulated.

ionix5891

Dob74 wrote: »

But the only way to afford to own your own house is to get a mortgage.
Which is just another form of renting.
Since we dont have proper laws for longterm renting and leasing.
Buying a house and having it financied by a bank, which in a sence owns the house. Is just another way of renting.

Anyway the cost of construction including labour and material, of a house is less than 100k.
So house prices where manipulated.

its more expensive than renting as you are getting something at the end of the period

Daithinski

mike65 wrote: »

McWilliams point about gaelscoile was/is that it was part of an aspirational lifestyle choice - choices tend to be bought on credit. .

I thought that gael scoils are are free? ie something that does not need to be bought on credit.

MG

Dob74 wrote: »

Dan O'Brien only started to be on Prime Time in the last year or so.
Until then it was McLauglin and the like. People who worked for banks, estate agents etc. Who had a clear conflict of interest but where never questioned on it.

I thought he was on a few years earlier and a quick google confirms this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0413/primetime.html

Dob74 wrote: »

The Pope's Children was only produced when it was too late.:mad:

Pope's Children was shown in Autumn 2006. I sold up then so it was not too late.

The information was there, the opportunity to take action was there. People just didn't want to know and they are still in denial.

What I found amazing about re-watching The Pope's Children is that it was the people themselves who were driving it. The banks, for all their crimes, were only part of the equation.

There is an ad on Sky News at the moment for a programme by a guy called Jeff Randell. In it he says something which sums it all up:

"we're here because we spent too much in places like this" - wider angle shot of him in a shopping mall/precinct.
"Becuase it's all about debt, personal, business and now government"
"it's about time we LIVED BELOW OUR MEANS"

"To those who said we couldn't have seen this coming - Rubbish"

MG

Firetrap wrote: »

As an aside, it would be great if RTE would show Richard Curran's Future Shock programme again..now that would make for interesting viewing

Would be great if they showed it again alright, I'd love to see it again.

Hopefully they haven't all gone off and killed themselves like someone suggested at the time............

djpbarry

Dob74 wrote: »

Since we dont have proper laws for longterm renting and leasing.

I'm getting pretty sick of this line being trotted out; "renters have no rights so I had to buy". I'm starting to think that a very large number of people in this country are completely unaware of the legal protection that tenants have.

London Irish

mickd wrote: »

Anybody can predict a crash its like saying it going to rain sometime. If you watch tonight's episode he goes to Germany where he comes up with a spectacular theory that German pensioners money is being invested in Ireland as cheap credit. When the Germans pensioners want to spend their money this will trigger a recession in Ireland. ....

Wake up. For f*cks sake.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=41786-qqqx=1.asp

Regarding the funding problems facing Ireland, Somers said that the massive foreign borrowings undertaken directly by the banks - and then recycled as property loans - were at the core of the problem.

‘‘The banking system in Ireland borrows a huge amount of money - between €100 billion and €200 billion - from outside the state,” he said. ‘‘To put it colloquially, this was borrowed from Fritz, Gunter, Heinz and so on, and now they want their money back - and this has put the squeeze on us.”

He said Germans were nervous of the money lent to Irish banks, and annoyed that their Irish government bond holdings had fallen in value.

‘‘We found ourselves in the situation where the Irish banks borrowed all the savings of Gunther, Fritz and Heinz, and Gunther, Fritz and Heinz said, ‘OK, you guys, you have had a good enough time, now we want our money back’. I was at the IMF World Bank meetings last autumn and we got quite a lot of flak, particularly from Germans who were very annoyed over the Lisbon Treaty.

KarenWallace

ionix5891 wrote: »

you missed a word

owning a house is a HUGE luxury

and thats why people rent as theres a NEED for shelter

people own houses as theres a WANT to own "own" shelter but one pays a premium for that

owning a house is not a fundamental human right as some Irish people think, your earn and pay for the privilige

luxury items are WANTS, necessities are NEEDS please dont mix up the 2

Some screwed up views there, pal.

So not being a servent to a bank or a landlord is a "LUXURY".

No, pal. It is the fundamental basis of a free society. Have you been reading too much of the communist manifesto??

djpbarry

KarenWallace wrote: »

So not being a servent to a bank or a landlord is a "LUXURY".

Eh, yeah, it is. The alternative is buying a house with your own cash - how many people have that option open to them? A privileged few? Living lives of luxury?

ionix5891

KarenWallace wrote: »

So not being a servent to a bank or a landlord is a "LUXURY".

what do you call a 30+ year 100%+ mortgages that were so popular recently?

yep thats right, DEBT slavery to the bank for the rest of your life

short of winning the lotto or inheriting a wad of money i dont see how you can afford a house in this country without signing your soul away

sneakyST

ionix5891 wrote: »

what do you call a 30+ year 100%+ mortgages that were so popular recently?

yep thats right, DEBT slavery to the bank for the rest of your life

Thats one short life there ionix :rolleyes: ......as opposed to paying rent for 50+ years........
Which ever way you look at it you are paying the bank- directly or indirectly (unless the landlord owns the house).

thebman

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm getting pretty sick of this line being trotted out; "renters have no rights so I had to buy". I'm starting to think that a very large number of people in this country are completely unaware of the legal protection that tenants have.

I have to agree. Tenants actually have pretty good rights here from what I can see.

I looked up once because people kept going on about it and because I rent. I think our renter rights aren't bad and with surplus accomodation at the moment you can always move.

ionix5891

sneakyST wrote: »

Thats one short life there ionix :rolleyes: ......as opposed to paying rent for 50+ years........
Which ever way you look at it you are paying the bank- directly or indirectly (unless the landlord owns the house).

renting is a fair bit cheaper than a mortgage (even with current low rates, wait till they go back up to their historical average) and you are not tied down with a debt rock around your neck

let me give you an example, i had to work for a year in large company in Dublin, myself and mates rented a place in a very expensive part of south Dublin for €1600/month,that was cheapest on the street since we knew the landlord well and hes after inheriting ALOT of money and this particular Georgian house

anyways the house was valued at over 2 million at time (probably still in 7 digits) and houses on the street where making headlines in the newspapers for breaking new property sale price records, do the maths at 1600 a month it would taken well over a 100 years to see a return on investment there, if this guy wasn't already loaded and had to pay a mortgage for this place, then him and his kids would be paying it off

that just shows how rediculous the property situation in this country got


not sure why this is turning into a rent vs buy debate, but theres so much uncertainty around now that im sure glad that im not tied down with a mortgage and can avail of jobs and opportunities around the world and this country, alot of people got on the property ladder thinking they will miss the boat, and prices will only go up and up, well what goes up must come down as some people are painfully learning now

sneakyST

Im not sure what you are really saying ionox. You said he inherited the house - I would doubt there would be a 2 mill mortgage on it. And if you can afford to buy a house for 2 mill you dont worry about mortgages and probably have a huge deposit anyway.

Back in the real world where houses are bought for a few hundred grand .... I notice you rented with yer mates - I dont think my wife and child would appreciate me sharing with my mates. People do like to settle down and actually own a place when they hit their forties.

I am actually leaving the country (hopefully soon) and dont see this mortgage as a rock around my neck. The house will either be sold or rented. The mortgage is 700 and I'll get 1100 for it if rented. Not bad if you ask me.

No matter where you are in the world - you still need to earn enough to put a roof over your head - if renting or "a slave to the bank".

Im not getting at you ionix I just think its rediculous at the way generalizations are made about mortgages and renters. It isnt that clear cut unfortunately , one way may suit some and the other suit others.

MG

sneakyST wrote: »

Thats one short life there ionix :rolleyes: ......as opposed to paying rent for 50+ years........
Which ever way you look at it you are paying the bank- directly or indirectly (unless the landlord owns the house).

Over the long run, whether it is cheaper to buy or rent for life is dependant on timing. If you bought low and value it during a boom, buying is better.
If you bought in the last couple of years, renting would probably have been a cheaper long term option.