Dept is contesting a sick note?

banquo

I recently submitted a (genuine!) sick note to our department to cover some late assignments. This morning I got a letter through the door from the department:

letter wrote:

The medical certificate you presented to the department, dated (date), does not provide sufficient detail to satisfy the requirements of the Late Submisions Committee. As a matter of priority you must now supply verified details of the frequency of your visits to the doctor since (date) and the specific nature of, and dates of, illness.

This detailed information must be verified by your doctor and submitted to the Department Office on, or before, Monday 18 May 2009 at noon

While I could get dates of doctors appointments, dates and results of tests and probably a even vial of my infected blood, this would time-consuming, expensive and affect my exam results. I'd have to travel around quite a bit to get everything and it's easier to tell them to shag off. Also, I don't like the precedent it sets.

So I want to know:

A) Are they allowed to ask for this information? The student handbook says that we need to submit a medical cert, but not that the dept can require further proof. Then again, there doesn't seem to be any real national law or or departmental policy on this.

Apart from the doctor, who within the college - SU, Academic Advisory Office or otherwise - could I take this up with?

Karoma

c) Futher proof that we were, in fact, ill.

How many of you submitted sick notes? Is there more to this than you're telling?

Contact your SU rep immediately.

banquo

My housemate was also sick, and handed in a similar sick note for the same period of time. It's a viral thing.

I've already contacted the relevent SU rep.

Beau

Thats annoying! My mate always uses sick notes for everything and he has never been questioned. Academic Advisory might help, I dunno really.

JBoyle4eva

Was talking to banquo earlier, and to clarify for Karoma, it was his housemates that became ill as well.

Definitely get in touch with Natasha Caroll in the SU ( vicepresident@nuimsu.com ) or pop round to her office.

Academic Advisory Office: ( http://advisoryoffice.nuim.ie ) Rose and Peter will advise you on this as well, email them, make an appointment to visit them, explain your situation and they might contact your department and tell them you are genuine rather than going through all this.

If neither work, go to the Academic Council and ask them is this ethical.

If I'm honest, a department to ask this just before examinations AND just over month before your final results for 3rd year come out, not ideally the best time to request all this.

banquo

Housemate was also sick, but it's not entirely related.

The real point of this thread was to see if this had happened to anybody else before, or if anyone knew of the specific policy regarding this.

JBoyle4eva

I don't think I've heard of anyone having a sick note being contested, so I've no experience to share with you banquo, just advice

gra26

That's so bizzare. Never heard of that happening before! I know in my Dept the sick notes just get filed away and no questions are asked, presumably as it's coming from a professional. Even the ones that cite something like period pain!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

I seem to recall hearing that a Doctor's note can only be contested in court?

LeixlipRed

Just a note to remind everyone that everyone in the Music Dept can view this thread.

nothing

Surely if you were genuinely sick, and can get the information, then why not just do it? Tell them you're bogged down with study, but you'll get it to them after the exams.

Edit : they may have cottoned on to "Dr Dodge" who hands out medical certs willy-nilly for a fee.

banquo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Just a note to remind everyone that everyone in the Music Dept can view this thread.

I'm aware of this, and have nothing to hide. Also, I can think of only two lecturers who might be on boards. To the first, I'm sorry I never really got into Trad; to the other, sorry I didn't try that hard for my dissertation. Big wave to you both.

I'd get all the details straight off if I had time, but I don't really. Most of my hours this week are already planned, and they want the details on monday.

Also, the letter was not exactly specific as to what details they want, I can only really speculate.

*Roisin*

I had a friend in last who had a lecturer contact the doctor who signed off her sick note. The lecturer faxed a copy of the submitted sick note through to the Doctor and asked whether it was genuine. The doctor sent a short note back replying that it was.

The lecturer then turned around and questioned the doctor on how someone could be sick for over a week and on the type of illness. Her Doctor replied pretty bluntly that what the lecturer was doing was way beyond her reach, once he has signed something off as her GP, it is a legal document unless questioned in court. It was also completely beyond her rights to question the doctor to try to get him to breach confidential records. The Doctor was seriously unimpressed and even sent the department a letter stating the legal implications of a medical certificate and threatening to report them.

What the Music Department are doing seems a little excessive. I'm sure they have the right to question whether you're sick note is genuine, that you didn't forge it, but I can't see them having the right to question it any further than that unless they wish to take you to court! I suppose it is better that they contacted you directly rather than try to go straight to your GP.

It's also very unfair timing of them, especially with the exams coming up. I think in your position, I'd reply to them stating that you've submitted your medical cert, outline the legality behind the document, state that you're very happy for them to contact your Doctor to check that it is real. I'd also say that as you've met the requirements on your end, that you find your upcoming exams to be more of a pressing matter and that you'd speak to them on the matter, if they wish to pursue it, once you're finished.

I wouldn't be impressed at all and I'd speak to Natasha and Academic Advisory. Have you submitted many sick notes?

*Roisin*

nothing wrote: »

Edit : they may have cottoned on to "Dr Dodge" who hands out medical certs willy-nilly for a fee.

They can cotton on to him all they want, they still can't refuse to accept his notes. He's a registered Doctor and so his sick notes are certified. One Department tried to refuse his notes and were close to receiving a solicitors letter for it. An employer or institution have no right to influence which GP you choose as your own. If they had serious issues with a Doctor, their only recourse would be to report that Doctor.

Got that information from the horse's mouth himself

PrivateEye

Definitely get in touch with Natasha Caroll in the SU ( vicepresident@nuimsu.com ) or pop round to her office.

That would be my 'step 1' too, to be honest.

I'd also probably still be punching holes in the wall, that's incredibly cheeky on the part of any Department. Providing it wasn't written in Crayon and signed by Doctor X you wonder what it means to them regardless.

LeixlipRed

banquo wrote: »

I'm aware of this, and have nothing to hide. Also, I can think of only two lecturers who might be on boards. To the first, I'm sorry I never really got into Trad; to the other, sorry I didn't try that hard for my dissertation. Big wave to you both.

I'd get all the details straight off if I had time, but I don't really. Most of my hours this week are already planned, and they want the details on monday.

Also, the letter was not exactly specific as to what details they want, I can only really speculate.

But you do realise you're shooting yourself in the foot by discussing these things in public? I'm sure everyone in the dept can use a computer.

PeakOutput

LeixlipRed wrote: »

But you do realise you're shooting yourself in the foot by discussing these things in public? I'm sure everyone in the dept can use a computer.

how is he shooting himself in the foot? he has nothing to hide they can read what they want

they either have a right to ask for the info or they dont

if the su is no help call the doctor ask him what your rights are regarding the cert then pass that info onto the department if that is not enough for them worry about taking it further at that stage

banquo

I contacted Natasha, who is awesome.

banquo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I'm sure everyone in the dept can use a computer.

True. But as I said I've nothing to hide, I'm just looking for a broader circle of opinions.

Also, whatever about this ''Doctor Dodge (?)'' stuff, Corish is an awesome doctor. When I was first getting checked out (over a year ago now) he looked into one of my eyes with the light thingy and said ''Hmm. Tell your girlfriend she has *disease name* and to see a doctor''. And he was right.

Carsinian Thau

I doubt that they have a right to ask for such information. An acknowledgement from your doctor that you were sick should be sufficient for them. It's not like they have the right to pass judgement (or even know about, to a certain extent) your medical history.

Ask your doctor about it to be sure and see what your SU can do about it.

Ostrom

My 2c from dealing with department admin (as tutor and lecturer) for two years - have never heard of this.

Doesn't sound right, doctors word is generally final

banquo

*Roisin* wrote: »

I suppose it is better that they contacted you directly rather than try to go straight to your GP.

Cheers for the long post, Roisin!

Word through the grapevine - from a reliable but unofficial source, but one who I don't want to get in trouble in public - is that the music dept also faxed and rang the doctor. Not 100% an official source (i.e. not Corish) so I can't say for sure, but I'm meeting the doctor tomorrow and I'll find out then if it's true.

It seems to me that a certificate that says ''Not fit for work or college for these dates'' signed by the product of seven years of medical studies is sufficient. In this conversation, the doctor is the only person qualified to determine who is ill and who is not ill and for how long.


Edit: Seems they only want a doctor-signed description of the severity of the illness and dates of visits. Original post updated to reflect this to avoid misrepresentation.

conf101

banquo wrote: »

Edit: Seems they only want a doctor-signed description of the severity of the illness and dates of visits. Original post updated to reflect this to avoid misrepresentation.

Is that still not a bit much to be asking for? Is that info any of their business?

John

conf101 wrote: »

Is that still not a bit much to be asking for? Is that info any of their business?

I don't think they can. Isn't the whole point of a sick note is that the doctor says you're too ill to work/attend college and that's that? Only the doctor is supposed to know what's wrong with you.

banquo

After some investigation, it seems that they can ask, but can also decline.

The major problem for me is getting the info before the monday noon deadline

petals

I wouldn't say a dept are allowed do that! I know none of the doctors notes ever gave alot of information other than stating basic facts of were sick from blah to blah date cos of whatever reason... Anything else is between doctor and patient I'd imagine!

banquo

This is becoming preposterous. It's due tomorrow at noon, no later - that much is made clear. However, the the soonest possible time I could get that information for them is tomorrow morning, which would be fine except I've an exam (9:30 - 11:30) at the same time. I'm sure people are saying ''ah now, you could have got it sooner if you wanted'', but in reality it just has not been possible. To do both I'd have to finish my exam in Rye Hall, run to Corish, queue, see the doctor and describe situation, obtain said information, and hand it in to Logic House. It's just not possible. Warp speed would increase my chances only marginally.

So my options are thus: do the exam and miss the deadline to verify my illness - they will not accept it after the deadline - or skip the exam to hand in my assignments and repeat in august to a cap of 40% in the module, which would seriously screw up my marks. Both options seriously screw up my degree. Also, if I miss his exam and have to repeat doesn't that mean I automatically get a pass degree? I'm not sure on that one.

This is sort of thing I mean when I complain.

JBoyle4eva

Ok, as it's your final year, SIT THE EXAM!!! Being capped at 40% isn't worth skipping it to solve.

At 11:30, get your information. As soon as your GP has given it to you, go to the dept with your exam permit and show that you had your exam to sit. They can't penalise you for having to sit an exam. If they do, I'd go to university level and go to the Academic Council and lodge a concern with them with regards this.

Best of luck tomorrow, if you need someone to bitch about the situation to, I shall be on campus til 4 o'clock.

banquo

This is all having an interesting effect on my blood pressure.

My sincere thanks to all who offered advice.

Beau

I agree with Boyler, concentrate on the exam for now. After that just try and get the info before the end of the day. They won't fcuk with you.

Ostrom

banquo wrote: »

This is all having an interesting effect on my blood pressure.

My sincere thanks to all who offered advice.

This is very strange, I have never heard of anything like this