"Public servants to receive pay hikes worth €250m"

redsteveireland

Did anyone else see this story today and feel slighty pee'd off with the government lying through their teeth???

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/public-servants-to-receive-pay-hikes-worth-250m-410421.html

Dob74

Wonder if the pay rise will come through right before the election?
Which may just be enough to prevent massive FF loses. Make them medium FF loses.
I wonder?

smelltheglove

I find it ridiculous how this government are constantly going back on their word, the sooner they are out the better!

ixoy

Ah glad I finally got a figure on this. I asked about this ages ago - how much would pay increments cost and whether there should be a freeze on them. Given the 250m quoted, yes - there certainly should be. It will certainly remove some of the sting felt by the pension levy which should mollify them somewhat but really the government should have put the whole thing on pause.

unichick

Where I work we received an increment last month and it does not cover the cost of the pension levy. This was an agreement with the unions in order for outsiders to be allowed apply for positions. Since then jobs have been advertised and 2,500 applicants have applied for each one so no chance of promotion ever. If they freeze the increment we are screwed.

Riskymove

I am surprised that people find this new information..as far as I can see its lazy journalism by the Indo as this issue has been mentioned many times on boards and elsewhere in recent times...

just a few things to clarify with regard to comments thus far


1. pay scales are the basic structure of public servants, they always have been. it is based on the idea of gaining experience and thus being more better at your job. If there was only one pay level for a grade, a new entrant would bepaid the same as someone many years in the job.

This is the public service equivalence of experienced private workers seeking a rise/new contract etc based on experience etc.


2. the actual pay rises (i,.e. the national pay agreement increases) have been scrapped..thus the Govt are not "lying" or "going back on their word" (for once;)) No one ever claimed increments would be stopped; we saw recently the difficulties in changing exisiting structures (TDs long-service increments)

3. Dob74 - people get increments based on the day they started job, it wont be everyone at once. Believe me there is no way its going to change current attitudes

4. Ixoy - the levies are based on your gross pay so if pay goes up levy goes up, albeit that you should still be up a bit.

5. from my experience of increments is about €30 extra in a pay check; thats just for context not to belittle the amount!

6. technically you must meet performance standards to get an increment, its not automatic; although in practice its a rare thing to be stopped an increment.

ixoy

I'm also surprised that people are suprised - it's why I questioned it ages ago. I'd be interested to see if that 250m cost does include the additional pension levy raised (if not we could deduct a certain amount).

I know the theory behind it and all but let's face facts - we can't afford it. As there's no new entrants then it should be (in theory) easier to bring in a freeze to increments. Obviously it would seem a bit unfair in some ways but it works out relatively fair if applied across the board (except for those one rung from the top).

AFAIK the percentage increase is better at lower levels - in the region of 5-6%. It decreases, as a %, the longer your service so it should help out those at the bottom most (in the CS anyway). It won't wipe out the levy but you'll be taking more home - sure it's less than you had prior to the pension levy but an increase in these times is still pretty good (as is my own pay freeze for context).

blondie7

Dob74 wrote: »

Wonder if the pay rise will come through right before the election?
Which may just be enough to prevent massive FF loses. Make them medium FF loses.
I wonder?

how about you actually read the article there ya sack

BroomBurner

Riskymove wrote: »

I am surprised that people find this new information..as far as I can see its lazy journalism by the Indo as this issue has been mentioned many times on boards and elsewhere in recent times...

just a few things to clarify with regard to comments thus far


1. pay scales are the basic structure of public servants, they always have been. it is based on the idea of gaining experience and thus being more better at your job. If there was only one pay level for a grade, a new entrant would bepaid the same as someone many years in the job.

This is the public service equivalence of experienced private workers seeking a rise/new contract etc based on experience etc.


2. the actual pay rises (i,.e. the national pay agreement increases) have been scrapped..thus the Govt are not "lying" or "going back on their word" (for once;)) No one ever claimed increments would be stopped; we saw recently the difficulties in changing exisiting structures (TDs long-service increments)

3. Dob74 - people get increments based on the day they started job, it wont be everyone at once. Believe me there is no way its going to change current attitudes

4. Ixoy - the levies are based on your gross pay so if pay goes up levy goes up, albeit that you should still be up a bit.

5. from my experience of increments is about €30 extra in a pay check; thats just for context not to belittle the amount!

6. technically you must meet performance standards to get an increment, its not automatic; although in practice its a rare thing to be stopped an increment.

Excellent post.

jmayo

Riskymove wrote: »

I am surprised that people find this new information..as far as I can see its lazy journalism by the Indo as this issue has been mentioned many times on boards and elsewhere in recent times...

just a few things to clarify with regard to comments thus far

1. pay scales are the basic structure of public servants, they always have been. it is based on the idea of gaining experience and thus being more better at your job. If there was only one pay level for a grade, a new entrant would bepaid the same as someone many years in the job.


This is the public service equivalence of experienced private workers seeking a rise/new contract etc based on experience etc.


6. technically you must meet performance standards to get an increment, its not automatic; although in practice its a rare thing to be stopped an increment.

The big difference you will find in private sector is that workers will not get a rise or a new contract with increased terms, no matter how long they have been in the job, if times are tough and revenues are not coming in.
In fact the crazy thing is, private sector workers are actually getting decreases.

So much for current government expenditure outweighing revenues
Funny old country ain't it.

BTW I would be interested in knowing exactly the performance criteria necessary to get the increments.
Does turning up for work suffice ?
Sorry that wouldn't apply to HSE workers I guess :rolleyes:

blondie7 wrote: »

how about you actually read the article there ya sack

Nice contribution for your first post :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

blondie7 wrote: »

how about you actually read the article there ya sack

How about you read the charter?

blondie7

jmayo wrote: »

BTW I would be interested in knowing exactly the performance criteria necessary to get the increments.
Does turning up for work suffice ?
Sorry that wouldn't apply to HSE workers I guess :rolleyes:

the performance criteria depends on punctuality, sick leave. your ability to actually do the job your being employed to do!!!!!!!!!!!!! i no plenty of people last year who didnt recieve there increments because they werent working to a high enough standard!!!!!


Nice contribution for your first post :rolleyes:

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

oscarBravo

blondie7 wrote: »

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

I'm not clear why having voluntarily chosen to work in the private sector disqualifies someone from criticising aspects of the public sector. If you think the criticism is unfair, please feel free to explain why.

jmayo

blondie7 wrote: »

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

True nobody forced me to work in private sector, but they are forcing me to pay for a generally overpaid, inefficient, irresponsible, incompetent, almost unsackable, pampered public sector.

See the difference ? I bet you won't :rolleyes:

BTW we can't all work in public sector.
If we did we would have Soviet communism and we all know how well that worked

Now before you get your knickers in a twist, I am not labelling every single public sector worker as above, but my God as a whole it does describe a fair amount.

As an aside just heard on radio Dublin is going to have an electable Lord Mayor, with guess what a salary similar to government minister.
And I suppose an office staff, advisors, pr staff, etc, etc to go with the job.
Just what we need more added expense :rolleyes:

MikeC101

What riles me is the severe lack of accountability displayed by the public sector. The HSE now predict they will lose an extra €50 million this year, that they "didn't realise" would happen. And what happens? Absolutely nothing. If this happened in a company in the private sector heads would roll. In the public sector? We likely won't even know who is to blame.

The vast majority of people I know in the private have taken paycuts this year, from 5 - 10%, and are fully aware there will be no pay rises, but the public sector are up in arms over the pension levy, and still expect pay increments?

Riskymove

jmayo wrote: »

The big difference you will find in private sector is that workers will not get a rise or a new contract with increased terms, no matter how long they have been in the job, if times are tough and revenues are not coming in.

That is true but I still think experience counts in your salary level in the private sector...do new people in the door earn the same as someone with 6 or 7 years or whatever experience?

that is what increments are about

pay rises to those increments have been frozen (in fact cancelled)

Riskymove

MikeC101 wrote: »

What riles me is the severe lack of accountability displayed by the public sector. The HSE now predict they will lose an extra €50 million this year, that they "didn't realise" would happen. And what happens? Absolutely nothing. If this happened in a company in the private sector heads would roll. In the public sector? We likely won't even know who is to blame.

The vast majority of people I know in the private have taken paycuts this year, from 5 - 10%, and are fully aware there will be no pay rises, but the public sector are up in arms over the pension levy, and still expect pay increments?

I completely agree about accountability over the HSE incidents especially given the amount of layer sof management


with regard to the levy, I believe you will find many parts of the public sector have toned down talk about that as it has taken effect and people move on; however, given that the first pay cheques with the budget applied are due this week, it may re-appear:rolleyes:

BornToKill

MikeC101 wrote: »

What riles me is the severe lack of accountability displayed by the public sector. If this happened in a company in the private sector heads would roll. In the public sector?

It did happen in a company in the private sector. In fact, it happened in several. Anglo, AIB, BOI and NIB to name but a few.

I suppose a few heads did roll in all fairness: Michael Fingleton stepped down after INBS made provision for €464 million of bad debts. Mind you, a €27.6 million pension buys quite a few plush pillows for that particular rolling head.

This is not about accountability or even about the private or public sector. If you reach the right level in either it's all gravy. 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which'.

AARRRGH

Riskymove wrote: »

That is true but I still think experience counts in your salary level in the private sector...do new people in the door earn the same as someone with 6 or 7 years or whatever experience?

that is what increments are about

pay rises to those increments have been frozen (in fact cancelled)

You can call the extra money whatever you want, but the fact is people are getting more money when they should be getting less.

The public sector should be run like the private sector - no more money, and the possibility of pay cuts.

Celticfire

AARRRGH wrote: »

You can call the extra money whatever you want, but the fact is people are getting more money when they should be getting less.

The public sector should be run like the private sector - no more money, and the possibility of pay cuts.

What do you mean by the possibility of a pay cut?, there's already been a pay cut.

AARRRGH

Celticfire wrote: »

What do you mean by the possibility of a pay cut?, there's already been a pay cut.

There's been a pension levy. I mean straight talking "you're all taking a 10% pay cut".

Celticfire

AARRRGH wrote: »

There's been a pension levy. I mean straight talking "you're all taking a 10% pay cut".

You can call it whatever you want the reality is that my take home pay has been reduced, which as far as I'm concerned is a pay cut.

terrydub

It's a pension levy,so when you retire you will recieve a guaranteed pension unlike the
private sector pension which have no such guarantee.

ardmacha

It's a pay cut, you receive the pension anyway. It is called a "pension levy" to avoid contractual disputes.
The average level of pay cut achieved this way in the public sector is at least the average pay cut in the private sector, although of course the private sector has had much greater variation.

I am suprised that the increments went ahead though.

kippy

Another thread that is heading towards the Public Sector bashing bin ( I reckon)

A couple of things, some already stated.
1. No one anywhere said increments would be scrapped. Personally, and I have gone into detail on this in other posts, the increments system, in the way it is implemented up till now, has not been beneficial to the best people in the public service and in fact ensures that the worst performers get pay rises the same as the best performers. Eventually the best people get dissillusioned and ask themselves whats the point if that plonker in the corner gets his rise for doing jack **** all year. The incremental system is and always has been somewhat of a joke.
2. Everyone gets paid increments at varying times of the year depending on their initial start date.
3. There still appear to be some serious misconceptions around the place on the public sector pensions levy. Please ensure you read up on how much public servants pay towards their pension and how the levy has effected them.


The increments will be frozen come next budget I reckon. But for a more efficient service it needs to be replaced with something far more robust and fair.

For all those out there who hate the Public Service and its workers. I genuinely feel sorry for those who lose jobs, but really, we are all in this together, low level Public and Private workers HAVE been screwed over one way or another by the decisions of those above in in both private and public sectors.


Kippy

MikeC101

BornToKill wrote: »

It did happen in a company in the private sector. In fact, it happened in several. Anglo, AIB, BOI and NIB to name but a few.

I suppose a few heads did roll in all fairness: Michael Fingleton stepped down after INBS made provision for €464 million of bad debts. Mind you, a €27.6 million pension buys quite a few plush pillows for that particular rolling head.

This is not about accountability or even about the private or public sector. If you reach the right level in either it's all gravy. 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which'.

Mmm, true enough I suppose - but the situations aren't quite the same. The banking losses were pretty much across the board, and caused by people at a certain level getting out of control with trying to make more profit along with an international economic collapse. The banks will pay in a huge loss of profits, consumer confidence and so on.

The losses and inefficiency in the public service seem to be happening constantly, and are almost expected. At least with the banks we had people to blame, with the public service we never seem to find out who is responsible, or see any repercussions.

microgirl

terrydub wrote: »

It's a pension levy,so when you retire you will recieve a guaranteed pension unlike the
private sector pension which have no such guarantee.

Excuse me, this "pension levy" (which is a complete misnomer) has been applied in my organisation too, because we are technically public service, despite the fact that we have a PRIVATE pension, not even remotely State guaranteed, so someone tell me how that's fair? (or indeed, legal, but how-and-ever)

ceret

This is appaling. The public sector is terribly ineffeicent.

Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

spank_inferno

ceret wrote: »

This is appaling. The public sector is terribly ineffeicent.

Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

+1
Its only fair. I doubt there could be a public sector worker here that could logicaly disagree.

But I' probably wrong

ardmacha

This is appaling. The public sector is terribly ineffeicent.

But we can spell.

Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

It is reasonable to have a new benchmarking, which should be a proper and honest effort, not like the original one. However, it is pointless to deny that the public sector has already had a paycut on a par with the average of the private sector.

Euro_Kraut

Breaking News: Public Sector workers get paid increments!!!

Are FG actually surprised about this or are they just whipping up more anti PS fever before the elections? The Govt never committed to freeze increments. I would love to see FG running in these elections on commitment to freeze pay increments.

P. Breathnach

ceret wrote: »

... Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

I agree that a further round of benchmarking would be a good idea. Declaring the outcome in advance is not. [Joe O'Toole could tell you about that.]

Abolishing incremental scales is a whole 'nother matter. Who is to say that the base point of a scale is the proper rate for a job? You might equally argue that the top of the scale is the rate, and that those lower on the scale are serving a kind of apprenticeship until they have achieved full mastery.

ixoy

ardmacha wrote: »

However, it is pointless to deny that the public sector has already had a paycut on a par with the average of the private sector.

Is it? I mean I'm genuinely curious as to what the average private sector pay cut is and I'd be curious to see what the pay cut is like with increments taken into account (and the potential to move to a new levy band). Are there any figures available detailing:
1) Private companies who've reduced employee numbers
2) Those who've reduced employee numbers
3) Those who've done both
4) Those who've done neither but not increased anything (recruitment/pay freeze)
5) Those who've actually had increases

Anyone know if this data is available in some form? Obviously given most companies are SMEs and not publicly traded it might be difficult but IBEC may have released it.

Sleepy

Might make an interesting topic for a poll in the census forum?

Personally, I'm in the private sector and got a 20% gross reduction in salary when being cut to a 4 day work week. After the tax changes it worked out at about 15% less take-home. I'd be surprised if anyone in the public sector has been hit that hard tbh.

jmayo

ixoy wrote: »

Is it? I mean I'm genuinely curious as to what the average private sector pay cut is and I'd be curious to see what the pay cut is like with increments taken into account (and the potential to move to a new levy band). Are there any figures available detailing:
1) Private companies who've reduced employee numbers
2) Those who've reduced employee numbers
3) Those who've done both
4) Those who've done neither but not increased anything (recruitment/pay freeze)
5) Those who've actually had increases

Anyone know if this data is available in some form? Obviously given most companies are SMEs and not publicly traded it might be difficult but IBEC may have released it.

Not done yet I would say, but I bet the Revenue together with the CSO will come up with yet another form that they want filled out like the last two I have had to fill out :rolleyes:
I guess it probably keeps a few public servants in jobs entering all that data and running a few statistical programs to work out how many people have computers, buy stuff over the web and transfer information to customers/suppliers via electronic means.

The only thing I think worth recording is do you have adequate broadband in your area. Funny that question was not asked on the last form I filled.
PS Mobile braodband is not adequate broadband and can someone please inform that muppet ryan of that point.

To previous poster saying you need to differentiate between new workers and older ones with more experience, hence increments. Isn't there a hiring freeze anyway.

Anyway final question, can anyone please tell me where are they going to get the money ?

Galmay

Firstly, I am of the opinion that absolutely increments should be frozen for the duration of the recession. While I understand their purpose and am a public sector employee myself, increments arent justified in the current climate. However, this is a government decision, not a public sector employee decision so certain people should layoff the PS bashing. If you have an issue with this contact your local TD.
Secondly, all this public/private sector comparison is getting out of hand. Each side is manipulating data to prove lazy generalisations and inaccuracies. For instance, I know only 2 people laid off so far, both professionals in the PS on short term contracts, I know 2 people on short weeks in the private sector apart from that the only people I know who have taken an effective pay cut are colleagues paying the pension levy. While my experience in itself proves nothing, neither does anybody elses, the point is everybody has suffered to a degree, it is not a competition as to who is suffering most or who feels hardest done by. There are people on every spectrum of society affected.
As for the other PS 'issue' of permanent and pensionable jobs, I think everybody realises this will change sooner rather than later especially for new entrants. Again, raise this issue with your local TD, coming on to public forums and bad-mouthing and generalising about 300,000 odd people is not an effective method of argument.

astrofool

If increments are to be kept, then pay across all of the public sector should drop in line with the decreased taxes coming in to pay for them.

You have to laugh at a PS worker complaining that their increment barely makes up for paying a bit more towards their pension, they're still living in cloud cuckoo land.

kippy

astrofool wrote: »

If increments are to be kept, then pay across all of the public sector should drop in line with the decreased taxes coming in to pay for them.

You have to laugh at a PS worker complaining that their increment barely makes up for paying a bit more towards their pension, they're still living in cloud cuckoo land.

Thanks for the sweeping generalisation.
A common theme in threads such as this.
Kippy

astrofool

Galmay wrote: »

For instance, I know only 2 people laid off so far, both professionals in the PS on short term contracts, I know 2 people on short weeks in the private sector apart from that the only people I know who have taken an effective pay cut are colleagues paying the pension levy. While my experience in itself proves nothing

As you say it proves absolutely zero, squat, nada, the proof is in the rapidly rising number of people on the live register.

astrofool

kippy wrote: »

Thanks for the sweeping generalisation.
A common theme in threads such as this.
Kippy

I'm talking about this person:

unichick wrote: »

Where I work we received an increment last month and it does not cover the cost of the pension levy.

Who thanks to the collective bargaining that the PS use, we get to use to represent all of the PS

kippy

astrofool wrote: »

I'm talking about this person:



Who thanks to the collective bargaining that the PS use, we get to use to represent all of the PS

Fair enough Astro......
Not everyone within the PS is of the same thinking........... however, collective bargaining and collective intelligence are two completely different matters.
I would hate to think that the thinking of a few of my colleagues would be representative of my own thoughts and feelings on matters.
Kippy

redsteveireland

blondie7 wrote: »

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

We will if public servants stop giving out fullstop.

stevoman

another witchhunt. sells papers i suppose. :rolleyes:

incremental pay is in the contract of a civil servants and thats always been the way. nobody was crying about it in the good times. entry level pay for a clerical officer as of now is €24397 annually.

Thank god for incremental pay or id still be drawing down this ultra crap wage.

yes the public sector have some inneffeciencies but so does everything. you should see the job i had trying to get the binman to leave me a new wheely bin. or the job i had trying to get something done with my insurance company. are these not private sector.

This whole arguement is old now at this stage.


IMO..... feck the begrudgers! Im glad now i had the hindsight to choose the civil service as my career.

ArphaRima

IMO..... feck the begrudgers! Im glad now i had the hindsight to choose the civil service as my career.

Well I'm still glad I didnt choose it.

Fergus08

And they're off!! Another public sector bashing thread on boards.ie - I'm constantly surprised!!

What I'd like the public sector bashers to do is get out a calculator and divide 250 million by 340,000.

I'll do it for handiness sake:
250,000,000 / 340,000 = EUR 735

That's the average payment that will result from the increments. Not, as the initial article slyly implies 2,400 per person. So, if some people are getting 2,400, a lot more are getting less than EUR 735. Spread that over 52 weeks and you get a grand total of an extra 14 euros per week average increase. Some will get a little more (those getting 2,400 in increased increments will get 46 euro a week extra) some (most, probably) will get less than 14 euros a week of an increase.

The story is a sly, scummy, putrid lie, from start to finish. I read the cover of the Independent and could see immediately a flaw in its figures. The Irish Independent seems intent on reaching new lows in Irish journalism, which in its current degraded state will be some achievement.

That the public sector bashers on boards and in the media can't even do a basic fact check confirms to me, for the umpteenth time, that they really are driven by irrationality. It also calls into question their good faith and, it's fair to say, their intelligence.

astrofool

Fergus08 wrote: »

And they're off!! Another public sector bashing thread on boards.ie - I'm constantly surprised!!

What I'd like the public sector bashers to do is get out a calculator and divide 250 million by 340,000.

I'll do it for handiness sake:
250,000,000 / 340,000 = EUR 735

That's the average payment that will result from the increments. Not, as the initial article slyly implies 2,400 per person. So, if some people are getting 2,400, a lot more are getting less than EUR 735. Spread that over 52 weeks and you get a grand total of an extra 14 euros per week average increase. Some will get a little more (those getting 2,400 in increased increments will get 46 euro a week extra) some (most, probably) will get less than 14 euros a week of an increase.

The story is a sly, scummy, putrid lie, from start to finish. I read the cover of the Independent and could see immediately a flaw in its figures. The Irish Independent seems intent on reaching new lows in Irish journalism, which in its current degraded state will be some achievement.

That the public sector bashers on boards and in the media can't even do a basic fact check confirms to me, for the umpteenth time, that they really are driven by irrationality. It also calls into question their good faith and, it's fair to say, their intelligence.

The problem is that the country doesn't have €250m to spread between 340,000 workers, but in fact needs to cut the wages of those 340,000 by more than €250m to even begin to balance the books. It's all going to end in the contracts being ripped up and renegotiated, or the IMF coming in and letting half the PS go in one fell swoop, giving the €250m in increments now is absolutely insane.

Fat_Fingers

One possibility is that situation is going to get much better but we need to wait for the right conditions. Job losses in private sector will continue. Government will be forced to raise more and more tax and will drive us deeper into depression. This government or any other will not address issues in public service. We will run out of money, and nobody will want to give us more. New income tax and stealth levies will move to 60+ % as its needed to support public service and unemployed. Black economy will become huge again. Resulting in less tax take and more levies on the workers. Revolt on the streets will start. Government falls and new intern Government has no options left but to call in IMF. They come in and up the taxes to about 75% to pay for the new borrowings. Public service 1/3 gets sacked. More protest and street walks but Government is no longer in charge so people can walk as much as they want. Fast forward to 10 years later and hey presto we are out of trouble but dark clouds are forming on the horizon again.. you just heard on the radio Fianna Fail was elected and Taoiseach is Beverley Flynn, finance minister is Mary Coughlan...

grahamo

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that the country doesn't have €250m to spread between 340,000 workers, but in fact needs to cut the wages of those 340,000 by more than €250m to even begin to balance the books. It's all going to end in the contracts being ripped up and renegotiated, or the IMF coming in and letting half the PS go in one fell swoop, giving the €250m in increments now is absolutely insane.

Wow! I didn't realise you were the minister for finance. You actually know all this stuff for a fact?
Not all Public sector receive these and for those that do its about 15-30 euro a week. (Can't speak for TD's and the top people ). Did nobody in the private sector ever get a pay rise then? No...wait!....every single one of you are taking massive pay cuts....NOT! I'm really, really bored with these public sector witch hunt threads.

jmayo

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that the country doesn't have €250m to spread between 340,000 workers, but in fact needs to cut the wages of those 340,000 by more than €250m to even begin to balance the books. It's all going to end in the contracts being ripped up and renegotiated, or the IMF coming in and letting half the PS go in one fell swoop, giving the €250m in increments now is absolutely insane.

I have asked numerous times on this forum and on another, where will the money come from to either pay for this or other increases that were negotiated.
As yet not one pro public sector poster has given an answer, apart from either it is in the contract or it has been agreed and we are due it.

Are people living in cloud cuckoo f88king la la land :rolleyes:
Do people actually run their households in the same manner, because if they do money lenders must be doing booming business ?

The country is fu**ed, we just do not have the money
I am not even talking about any money that has to be pumped into the banks to keep them afloat. When we really have to face that hurdel the country will collapse.
Posters raise the banks as a reason why they should get bonuses, raises, increments and not take a pay cut.
Even if the banks were fine we are still f**ked because our tax revenues have fallen hugely and yet our spending is increasing.

As usual I don't expect a reply, apart from being accused of going on anti public sector worker rant :rolleyes:

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

One possibility is that situation is going to get much better but we need to wait for the right conditions. Job losses in private sector will continue. Government will be forced to raise more and more tax and will drive us deeper into depression. This government or any other will not address issues in public service. We will run out of money, and nobody will want to give us more. New income tax and stealth levies will move to 60+ % as its needed to support public service and unemployed. Black economy will become huge again. Resulting in less tax take and more levies on the workers. Revolt on the streets will start. Government falls and new intern Government has no options left but to call in IMF. They come in and up the taxes to about 75% to pay for the new borrowings. Public service 1/3 gets sacked. More protest and street walks but Government is no longer in charge so people can walk as much as they want...

This is probably closer to the truth than most people think.
Some people probably hope the Germans step in to save us in order to save the Euro.
Either way we will have a very unforgiving master :rolleyes:

Riskymove

I agree that the increments should probably be paused for a time while we see what happens this year but to clarify some points made:

1. If €250m is the correct figure then you can deduct the pension levy and income levy from that followed by PAYE and PRSI to a far reduced amount to be actually paid

2. The cost will be more than covered by the reductions in Public Service Bill due to the introduction of Early Retirement, Sabbaticals and Reduced working year which have huge interest at present in PS and whose vacancies wont be filled. In addition there is a recruitment and promotion freeze and contract staff are being let go.

3. There are a number of other areas which need to come under the level of scrutiny and debate that the PS has is recent times if we are to really solve the problem; Welfare costs is the primary one and is a massive expenditure (estimated to be about 29% of governemtn expenditure this year - over €21bn). The other is the taxes due; I learned last week there is well over €1bn in due taxes not yet paid by companies.

redsteveireland

Fergus08 wrote: »

And they're off!! Another public sector bashing thread on boards.ie - I'm constantly surprised!!

What I'd like the public sector bashers to do is get out a calculator and divide 250 million by 340,000.

I'll do it for handiness sake:
250,000,000 / 340,000 = EUR 735

That's the average payment that will result from the increments. Not, as the initial article slyly implies 2,400 per person. So, if some people are getting 2,400, a lot more are getting less than EUR 735. Spread that over 52 weeks and you get a grand total of an extra 14 euros per week average increase. Some will get a little more (those getting 2,400 in increased increments will get 46 euro a week extra) some (most, probably) will get less than 14 euros a week of an increase.

The story is a sly, scummy, putrid lie, from start to finish. I read the cover of the Independent and could see immediately a flaw in its figures. The Irish Independent seems intent on reaching new lows in Irish journalism, which in its current degraded state will be some achievement.

That the public sector bashers on boards and in the media can't even do a basic fact check confirms to me, for the umpteenth time, that they really are driven by irrationality. It also calls into question their good faith and, it's fair to say, their intelligence.

Your constantly surprised? I'd say that looks funny!:eek:
On a serious note the article doesn't say 2,400 per person, if you read the article I referenced it says "worth up to €2,400" up to being the key words there.
As for questioning peoples intelligence....that's just not nice.