Green light for car ban in heart of the capital

-Chris-

What do you all think of this?



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/green-light-for-car-ban-in-heart-of-the-capital-1735782.html

Irish Indo wrote: »

Green light for car ban in heart of the capital


By Shane Hickey, Irish Independent

Tuesday May 12 2009

A BAN on cars in the heart of Dublin's city centre at peak times was given the go-ahead last night.

The severe car curbs will mean private traffic will not be allowed in the College Green area between 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm from Monday to Friday.

Dublin city councillors voted 15 to 12 in favour of the plans to introduce the 'bus gate'. The vote came amid warnings from business representative groups that the ban will have severe implications for the economy in the capital with one estimate predicting 2,500 job losses and €200m in lost revenue.

The measure is part of a city centre transport plan and is being brought in to accommodate the construction of Metro North and the Metro BX Interconnector.

It is expected that the plan will be put into effect by the summer. Transport Minister Noel Dempsey has already signalled that he wants the car-free zone to be in place by July.

During a debate in City Hall last night, some councillors said the move was premature in the current economic environment and would have a negative impact on local business.

Labour's Paddy Bourke said there should have been more consultation with "stakeholders" who would be affected.

Cllr Ruairi McGinley (Fine Gael) said business in the city centre is "fragile" and a cautious approach should be taken.

However, Labour's Andrew Montague said buses would be able to bring in five times as many shoppers into the city as cars could.

Cllr Deirdre Heney (Fianna Fail) said if the council did not agree on the plan, a congestion charge could come into effect.

Brendan O'Brien, senior executive traffic engineer with the council, said pollution would be decreased as a result and the action would divert a very small portion of traffic.

The measures will ban private traffic from Dame Street to Westmoreland Street and in the opposite direction from D'Olier Street to Dame Street.

A statement from Dublin City Council after the meeting said commuter traffic would be rerouted as a result and there will be new arrangements to access some car parks. A public information campaign will take place prior to the changes.

Access

"Access to the city for public transport users will be significantly eased. Ready access to all of the city centre and its car parks will be maintained at all times and car-borne shoppers and business traffic will continue to be facilitated," said the statement.

After the decision, the president of the Dublin City Business Association said he accepted the decision and said he was reassured by a commitment from the Transport 21 committee that new signage would be introduced.

"The most important thing is that Dublin will remain fully open for business between 10am and 4pm and Saturdays and Sundays no change," said David McCormick.

The change will also involve wider footpaths and extra crossing points for pedestrians. An independent body is to review the scheme after the first six months of operation.

smash

What a f*cking joke.....

tomred1

Doesn't make sense to me. Dublin Bus are reducing their bus numbers yet they are been giving more space in the city centre. This decision effects the people who still have jobs and is going to make their drive to & from work longer. Also, with the car parking levy still is proposed to come in July this might reduce cars in city centre and inturn reduce revenue for this scheme.

Amalgam

Commerce is fragile, they'll regret this decision..

Tragedy

Crap and unnecessary. Maybe a bus filter traffic light back up dame street towards christchurch would have helped a bit, but having to get two buses every morning(one that turned onto dame street opposite starbucks and went up to westmoreland, and then one back up dame street and down past christchurch), never saw the need.

Cuddlesworth

tomred1 wrote: »

Doesn't make sense to me. Dublin Bus are reducing their bus numbers yet they are been giving more space in the city centre. This decision effects the people who still have jobs and is going to make their drive to & from work longer. Also, with the car parking levy still is proposed to come in July this might reduce cars in city centre and inturn reduce revenue for this scheme.

Its a choke point and one of the reasons buses can't stay on time.

Very few people in the city centre drive in, its not economical.

Parking levy has been waylaid for the moment as nobody really knows or cares about it.

R.O.R

Personally I don't think it will make much difference.

I used to catch the bus in to College Green when I was based there, and out on the way home. No delays coming in but on the way out you'd get caught on Westmoreland Street because about 600 buses all pick up and drop off from the same spot at the same time.

Putting a proper terminus on Westmoreland Street would make more sense to me.

tomred1

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Very few people in the city centre drive in, its not economical.

Parking levy has been waylaid for the moment as nobody really knows or cares about it.

Than why does it take me 30 mins every morning to get up the Quays?
The Parking levy isn't waylaid, it is due to be impleted in July according to Revenue.

Cuddlesworth

tomred1 wrote: »

Than why does it take me 30 mins every morning to get up the Quays?

Because you drive the same stupid way as everybody else including the majority of HGV's.

tomred1 wrote: »

The Parking levy isn't waylaid, it is due to be impleted in July according to Revenue.

It will be a cold day in hell when that happens. Nobody in the revenue is even sure how to enforce the thing, ignoring the huge complications in place for a lot of the car lots and private parking within the centre.

cormie

This is only for private cars right? Is there a map of the roads that will be hit with the ban?

challengemaster

Ah, this country just gets better and better.:rolleyes:

tomred1

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Because you drive the same stupid way as everybody else including the majority of HGV's.



It will be a cold day in hell when that happens. Nobody in the revenue is even sure how to enforce the thing, ignoring the huge complications in place for a lot of the car lots and private parking within the centre.

HGV's aren't allowed on the Quays!( you might see 1 or 2 a week) I drive the most direct route, how is this stupid? I know of all the alternative routes but they are just as bad.
All im saying is that the Government still has scrapped the Parking Levy and that if they brought the Levy in, this ban could reduce their income.

alias no.9

It's hard to understand what routes will really be affected. I know it's chock a block with cars every day but where are they coming from and going to? The through routes are as follows...

1. Christchurch/Parliment St => Dame St => College Green => Westmoreland St
2. D'Ollier St => College Green => Dame St
3. D'Ollier St => College Green => Nassau St

For a south to north trip, you'll need to start from as far west of College Green as Patrick Street. From there it makes just as much sense to head down Winetavern street and across to the north quays if you're heading towards O'Connell st. If you're heading deep into the northside then High st => Bridge st => Church st makes most sense.

For a north to south trip, it's next to impossible to access O'Connell st southbound so your options to get to O'Connell Bridge are really limited to approaching from Bachelors Walk, but to get onto Bachelors Walk, you'll have passed Capel st bridge, where you could have crossed. Other this you'll have to have crossed the Liffey at the customs house, from where you can access the south city via Lombard st and Westland Row up to Merrion sq.

So they're the thru routes, what about people stopping along the way? Well where are they going to stop? There are no car parks that can't be accessed just as easily by other routes.

I don't think this proposal goes far enough, I think it should be closed off to traffic all the time. It's just a bottleneck on a non core arterial route that backs up traffic onto core arterial routes, slowing down the entire city. I also think that Dublin Bus needs a kick up the arse for routing almost every single route across O'Connell bridge which contributes massively to the congestion on Colllege Green. I'd love to see College Green turned into a civic space, maybe even to include the taking back of the old parliment building on college green from Bank of Ireland to be used as a public building, as part payback to the people for saving the sorry asses.

Edit: As part of this, it might make sense to allow a right turn from Dame Street onto Georges Street again, i.e. making Parliment st => Dame st => Georges st a south to north route

Darragh29

If things were looking a lot better on the jobs front, I'd say go for it but now isn't the time to be trying revolutionary ideas like this. If there is even a remote chance that jobs will be lost over this right now, then the logical thing to do is to shelve it. Unfortunately we have a government that doesn't see the importance of maintaining jobs in the economy, so we'll be seeing a lot more of this type of disorientated decision making.

Drummerboy08

Another prime example of politicians gone mad.

Im just waiting to collar one of them doing the rounds this week. Between this and the parking levy, he'll regret ever calling to my door.

Ciaran500

How will this cost jobs? How many people drive into the city centre to go shopping at peak times?

Cuddlesworth

tomred1 wrote: »

HGV's aren't allowed on the Quays!( you might see 1 or 2 a week) I drive the most direct route, how is this stupid? I know of all the alternative routes but they are just as bad.
All im saying is that the Government still has scrapped the Parking Levy and that if they brought the Levy in, this ban could reduce their income.

I can get from one side of the city to the other in 30 minutes in a car or van during rush hour. So if it takes you 30 minutes to get down the quays I would suggest driving a alternate route.

As for loss of revenue from the parking Levy, I'm in a company of 2k people based in two offices both southside and northside. We have just under 120 parking spaces available. How exactly do you think the demand for spaces is going to go down from some diversions?

Bluefoam

Would it not make more sense to alter the bus routes so that 80% of the busses don't use one narrow bottlenecked corridor? Its difficult enough to travel from the Southside of the City to the Northside & viceversa - looks like they want to make it even more difficult!

This country is run by gob****es...

Gran Hermano

Roll on the elections... it'll be payback time for the voters.

Anan1

alias no.9 wrote: »

I don't think this proposal goes far enough, I think it should be closed off to traffic all the time. It's just a bottleneck on a non core arterial route that backs up traffic onto core arterial routes, slowing down the entire city. I also think that Dublin Bus needs a kick up the arse for routing almost every single route across O'Connell bridge which contributes massively to the congestion on Colllege Green. I'd love to see College Green turned into a civic space, maybe even to include the taking back of the old parliment building on college green from Bank of Ireland to be used as a public building, as part payback to the people for saving the sorry asses.

Me too. In any case, here's the reason given in the article: The measure is part of a city centre transport plan and is being brought in to accommodate the construction of Metro North and the Metro BX Interconnector. Pretty much like any other diversion for major roadworks?

alias no.9

Bluefoam wrote: »

Its difficult enough to travel from the Southside of the City to the Northside & viceversa - looks like they want to make it even more difficult!

Can you list any North => South or South => North routes where it makes sense to travel via College Green?

Bluefoam

alias no.9 wrote: »

Can you list any North => South or South => North routes where it makes sense to travel via College Green?

For one - Harrolds Cross to Fairview - However the point is that by cutting off traffic to college green you are forcing more traffic onto routes that are already over congested...

alias no.9

Bluefoam wrote: »

For one - Harrolds Cross to Fairview

Assuming you come down clanbrassil street onto patrick street, continue onto winetavern street and across onto the north quays. Next?

Bluefoam wrote: »

However the point is that by cutting off traffic to college green you are forcing more traffic onto routes that are already over congested...

Have you considered that the bottleneck on college green is actually backing up traffic back onto other routes, slowing down traffic on them?

Bluefoam

alias no.9 wrote: »

Assuming you come down clanbrassil street onto patrick street, continue onto winetavern street and across onto the north quays.

So is everyone forced down one street or do they get a choice? are you allowed to go a particular route to run errands? The policy of obstructionism does not nurture a free flowing system...

alias no.9 wrote: »

Have you considered that the bottleneck on college green is actually backing up traffic back onto other routes, slowing down traffic on them?

No, Next?

alias no.9

Bluefoam wrote: »

No, Next?

By banning cars from College Green, you reduce the volume of cars tuning right onto O'Connell bridge from Bachelors Walk which cause tailbacks all the way back along the north quays at peak times. You also reduce the volume of traffic coming from O'Connell bridge onto O'Connell st and Eden quay allowing those traffic lights to be resequenced to further free up the north quays. That should make your journey from Harrolds Cross to Fairview via Winetavern st that little bit quicker.

roosterman71

Joe Duffy talking about it now. People ain't too happy

faceman

Its a ludicrous motion. One of the reasons that the area is so much of a bottle neck each day is because most of the buses on the southside all drive up that area. Plus there is a huge terminus along the side of Trinity. Why? It makes no sense.

Dublin Bus need to move their bus terminus to outside the core business district. Bus routes need to be redirected from that area, not all of them need to pass by.

I reckon if you spent the week adding up the amount of traffic that passes through the area during business hours, private cars would amount of a smaller percentage than is being made out.

tomred1

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I can get from one side of the city to the other in 30 minutes in a car or van during rush hour. So if it takes you 30 minutes to get down the quays I would suggest driving a alternate route.

I only used 30 mins as a figure, what i really should have wrote was that there is always heavy traffic on the quays every morning, this was in responace to your suggestion that few people drive into the city centre.

McSpud

I don't see it making much difference. The biggest changes in recent years was the Stephens Green contra flow & the ban on right turn at the bottom of Georges street.

The guff about reviewing this in 6 months is however nonesense as they said the same thing about Stephens Green. This will be here to stay no matter what the impact turn sout to be.

Not sure the logic of discouraging traffic in a recession.

seamus

McSpud wrote: »

Not sure the logic of discouraging traffic in a recession.

What has traffic got to do with a recession? The hours involved are not peak shopping hours and by and large do not affect people's ability to access car parks. The ridiculous "reducing shoppers" argument is clearly the only thing that business could come up with because shop owners are now annoyed that it'll be that little more difficult to drive their own car to work.

A few years back I would have said that obstructing traffic is ridiculous because we don't have a proper public transport system. This is still true, but something's got to give. The busses mainly suffer because of commuter traffic making them slow and unreliable. So it's a catch-22 situation. Public transport can't improve until people are discouraged from driving to work, or to use orbital routes instead of direct ones. T

Unless you use your car as part of your job, you have no need to drive into Dublin city. If you live miles out of the city, that's your problem. Drive to the nearest bus and get it.

Most major western cities have had anti-car policies in place for a long time, so I don't know why people are so surprised and enraged that we'd do the same.

Tea drinker

I keep saying: They should turn the city centre into a huuuuuge zoo and put a motorway around it
Nobody would notice the difference given some of the freaks walking around town these days. I never go to town in a car, but I have the LUAS close by, it's miserable looking for parking, and even worse paying for it.
I don't know how many of the business keep going in town with the rack rents.

I can see how people would be pretty pissed at no alternate arrangements being made for their travel - "read my lips: no new buses"
This after Dublin Bus allegedly forced that private bus operator out of business through swamping their routes.

Tragedy

Seamus I agree with you. Except the car ban on college green will shave a minute or two of bus commutes. Hardly worth the bother.

The-Game

You just know the majority who voted for this dont ever drive themselves into town at any time. Useless shower of .......

Guy:Incognito

roosterman71 wrote: »

Joe Duffy talking about it now People ain't too happy

People are stupid and reactionary.

Thereare 4 or 5 people in this thread usign their brains and applying illteligent thought to this (usernames begining with A and ending in a number:) to highlight a couple). Then here are the others that dive in with the useual rabble rabble nonsense "bloody stupid politicians" "idiots dont know what they are doing " etc etc that blinker themselves to any reasoned thinking becase they are too busy using it as an excuse to give out about the government to see its essentially a good thing and wontreally put anybody out.

Tragedy

How is it a good thing Stekelly?

seamus

Tragedy wrote: »

Seamus I agree with you. Except the car ban on college green will shave a minute or two of bus commutes. Hardly worth the bother.

It'll shave a minute or two for getting across college green, sure. But look at the roads affected;

Dame Street becomes utterly useless for traffic trying to cross the liffey This alone will be a huge boost.
Bachelor's walk likewise.
Pearse St is no longer an option if you're trying to get around Trinity college

Yes, it will cause more congestion on other routes - I can see the south quays suffering a bit. However, the ultimate aim is to get people to re-evaluate their routes and use those which are more suited to commuting. I know people who still think that the quickest way from Terenure to Dublin Airport at 8am is via O'Connell St, for example.
Ultimately when people realise that doing ridiculous things like driving from Harold's Cross to Fairview has become unviable, they'll switch to more reasonable forms of commuting.

projectmayhem

seamus wrote: »

It'll shave a minute or two for getting across college green, sure. But look at the roads affected;

Dame Street becomes utterly useless for traffic trying to cross the liffey This alone will be a huge boost.
Bachelor's walk likewise.
Pearse St is no longer an option if you're trying to get around Trinity college

Yes, it will cause more congestion on other routes - I can see the south quays suffering a bit. However, the ultimate aim is to get people to re-evaluate their routes and use those which are more suited to commuting. I know people who still think that the quickest way from Terenure to Dublin Airport at 8am is via O'Connell St, for example.
Ultimately when people realise that doing ridiculous things like driving from Harold's Cross to Fairview has become unviable, they'll switch to more reasonable forms of commuting.

+1
The point isn't to stuff all the cars into roads around Dame street, it's to get people to stop driving through the city needlessly.

On top of that, it free's up one of the cities nicer streets to pedestrians.

Bluefoam

seamus wrote: »

Yes, it will cause more congestion on other routes - I can see the south quays suffering a bit. However, the ultimate aim is to get people to re-evaluate their routes and use those which are more suited to commuting.

I commuted from Baldoyle to Sandyford for three years & vise versa. On my return journey - the M50 was useless & added the insult of charging to use it - the east link was also congested at all southbound approaches so I avoided it - It was almost impossible to get to Christchurch and to the north quays - I used to go via pearse st, most of my journey was fine, they have done a great job at getting the stillorgan dual carriage way moving, but pearse st was a nightmare & would add about 45mins to my journey. Now they want to add further traffic to these already over congested arteries???

They are Gob****es

Beta Ray Bill

I rarely drive to town during Rush hour

However I still oppose the idea of a car ban on college green.

Lots of people on here think its a good idea and that it will stop people driving to work needlessly.
they also think it will help ease traffic congestion around the city centre.

===NEWS FLASH===

- Irish People are Stuborn... this will NOT deter people from using their cars to drive to work

- Recently with Job Losses/Recession etc traffic around the city centre has eased (slightly). when things pick up again (The Economy) this car ban is gonna cause major traficc congestion

- for the people that think that it will reduce traffic congestion please think again. the cars have to go somehwhere. I can see Townsed street, Custom house Quay, Aston Quay and all the areas around college Green (particularly in areas where traffic is coming from the North side of the City) becoming exceptionally congested.

- We need to Increase the number of good roads going into the city centre not reduce them.

seamus

Let's be fair here Bluefoam - your specific commute is of no interest. They can't re-evaluate the entire system because one guy needs to cross the city. You complain about congestion while clearly contributing to it.
This is not an attack on you personally, but every single driving commuter seems to think that yes, congestion needs to be reduced, but no I shouldn't have to stop driving or make any adjustments to my route/commute. It's illogical. If you want traffic flow to improve you need to be prepared to make changes and sacrifices.

Bluefoam

seamus wrote: »

Let's be fair here Bluefoam - your specific commute is of no interest. They can't re-evaluate the entire system because one guy needs to cross the city.

I have illustrated a need to travel across the city which is a requirement of thousands of people in Dublin - I have given examples of 5 routes that don't work well & was unable to find one that was useful... This isn't about me its about traffic management & saving what would amount to millions of euros a year to the ecomony by getting it right.

seamus wrote: »

You complain about congestion while clearly contributing to it.

:rolleyes: Well in that case we should ban all private and public transport from the roads - then there would be no congestion.

seamus

Bluefoam wrote: »

I have illustrated a need to travel across the city which is a requirement of thousands of people in Dublin - I have given examples of 5 routes that don't work well & was unable to find one that was useful... This isn't about me its about traffic management & saving what would amount to millions of euros a year to the ecomony by getting it right.

What about the routes you clearly didn't consider - like the dart and the bus?

:rolleyes: Well in that case we should ban all private and public transport from the roads - then there would be no congestion.

Clearly missing the point. If you're not doing anything to reduce congestion, then you can't complain when the local government does something to reduce congestion which affects you negatively.

Beta Ray Bill

seamus wrote: »

Clearly missing the point. If you're not doing anything to reduce congestion, then you can't complain when the local government does something to reduce congestion which affects you negatively.

The car ban will increase congestion not reduce it.
The traffic has to go somewhere mate.
The areas around College Green will be even worse now.

Bluefoam

seamus wrote: »

What about the routes you clearly didn't consider - like the dart and the bus?

Please inform me of the public transport options - dart doesn't link up with luas - connector bus does not co-ordinate with southbound darts & times every half an hour which is almost impossible to manage - buses are just a joke & trying to connect two Dublin buses is slightly more appealing than suicide...

Plus, some people actually need their cars in to do their job - I'm happy to get buses, trains and planes to meetings - but quite often the more appropriate option is to drive...

Believe it or not - in the process of doing my job I am actually positively contributing to the economy of the country & help create jobs...

faceman

How many bus routes serve both the north and south of the city and what percentage of total bus routes does it constitute? Anyone know?

seamus

grahambo wrote: »

The car ban will increase congestion not reduce it.
The traffic has to go somewhere mate.

Yes it does. It has to go. 99% of people who drive to work, do not need to drive to work. Simple as. The aim should be to make life so frustrating for single-car commuters that they'll find alternatives.

Bluefoam wrote: »

Please inform me of the public transport options - dart doesn't link up with luas - connector bus does not co-ordinate with southbound darts & times every half an hour which is almost impossible to manage - buses are just a joke & trying to connect two Dublin buses is slightly more appealing than suicide...

OK, just for one specific option;

Dart to Pearse St: 20mins
Walk to Stephen's Green: 10mins
Luas to Sandyford: 25 mins

Which makes a total commute of roughly an hour if you add in 5-10 mins additional walking. How does that compare to your normal commute?

Plus, some people actually need their cars in to do their job - I'm happy to get buses, trains and planes to meetings - but quite often the more appropriate option is to drive.

But everyone has an excuse as to why the need their car. So how do you resolve that? Just put your hands up and go, "Ok guys, sorry, nothing we can do, you'll just have to live with it"?

Beta Ray Bill

seamus wrote: »

Yes it does. It has to go. 99% of people who drive to work, do not need to drive to work. Simple as. The aim should be to make life so frustrating for single-car commuters that they'll find alternatives.

Irish people are exceptionally stubborn. You know very well that they will not leave there cars at home.

The only way some people will leave their cars at home is if they are specifically told "You cannot drive your car to town". And if they did say that then they would need a state of the art public transport system to accommodate all those people, which is something that we don't have or have the money to invest in. example I live on the DART line and I am lucky for this, however upon arriving at Pearse street train station. I may have to wait 15-20 min on a Dart at Rush hour in the evening time. and then at that it can (usually 35 min) take 45 mins to get home.

Congestion charges do not work. the UK have tried this with no noticeable improvement on traffic congestion. (this is based on people I have talked to that live within the congestion charge zones)

Besides that why should they leave their cars? They Pay Road tax and Insurance and should be entitled to drive where ever they want.

What wee need it more bridge across the liffey.
Some of the old apartment blocks should be bought out, teared down, and big roads built in there place.

Another 3 Tunnels into the City Centre would also be a fantastic idea (Less the Tolls). I think spending the Money on building better/more roads in the city centre is a better Idea that giving it to CIE to p*ss down the toilet (please excuse my language)

Bluefoam

seamus wrote: »

OK, just for one specific option;

Walk to dart station: 15mins
Dart to Pearse St: 20mins 35mins
Walk to Stephen's Green: 10mins 15mins
Luas to Sandyford: 25 mins
Walk to work: 10mins

Thats: 1h 40mins + add up to 30mins on the return journey to wait for a dart to arrive - Thats 2hrs 10mins as opposed to 1hrs 20 in the car (which I would also require during the work day)

BTW People do need cars for business - its not a myth - the idea that if you make it impossible for them to drive that they will no longer need cars is just some sort of fantassy bull**** from gob****es who have no idea how an economy actually works - & seamus, you don't seem to grasp the fact...

seamus

grahambo wrote: »

Irish people are exceptionally stubborn. You know very well that they will not leave there cars at home.

I'm an optimist. I refuse to believe that people will prefer to sit in traffic for two hours when the bus might take 20 minutes (extreme example). There is a critical mass where the differential between bus and car will make people switch. If the bus is 10 minutes quicker than the car, there's little incentive to switch. If the bus is 45 minutes quicker then the car, now you're getting somewhere.

I'm not getting at Bluefoam specifically - he may very well have a legitimate reason for driving to work; some people do.
I'm trying to illustrate that when challenged on their driving commute, almost everyone will try to find excuses as to why they *have* to drive, therefore absolving themselves of blame because "it's everyone else on the road who's causing the traffic". Very few people when asked will admit that they don't actually need to drive, but simply prefer to because it's a private space which they're in control of. That's the main reason why so many people drive, but it unfortunately doesn't justify driving.

example I live on the DART line and I am lucky for this, however upon arriving at Pearse street train station. I may have to wait 15-20 min on a Dart at Rush hour in the evening time. and then at that it can (usually 35 min) take 45 mins to get home.

Chicken and egg scenario again though. Most transport systems are designed to work to a particular capacity at peak times. Having a system which has empty spaces at peak times makes no sense. If demand improves, the service frequency increases.

Besides that why should they leave their cars? They Pay Road tax and Insurance and should be entitled to drive where ever they want.

They pay motor tax, which is a tax on the privilege of having a vehicle. It entitles them to nothing.

What wee need it more bridge across the liffey.
Some of the old apartment blocks should be bought out, teared down, and big roads built in there place.

Another 3 Tunnels into the City Centre would also be a fantastic idea (Less the Tolls)

So, just encourage more traffic then? One universal constant is that if you provide more road, more traffic will appear to occupy that road. Improving capacity in the city centre does nothing except put pressure on the arterial routes, which in turn puts pressure on the orbital routes. All you'd be doing is moving the problem around, not actually addressing it.

Draupnir

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thats: 1h 40mins + add up to 30mins on the return journey to wait for a dart to arrive - Thats 2hrs 10mins as opposed to 1hrs 20 in the car (which I would also require during the work day)

BTW People do need cars for business - its not a myth - the idea that if you make it impossible for them to drive that they will no longer need cars is just some sort of fantassy bull**** from gob****es who have no idea how an economy actually works - & seamus, you don't seem to grasp the fact...

How does an economy work in such a way that it depends on people driving their cars?

On the other point, where the hell do you live that it takes both 15 minutes to walk to a Dart station and then 35 minutes for the Dart to get to Pearse? I would strongly suggest that you have screwed up your life by moving to a part of the country a million miles from your job, it would be like me taking a job in Galway and then bitching about the commute.

seamus

Bluefoam wrote: »

BTW People do need cars for business - its not a myth - the idea that if you make it impossible for them to drive that they will no longer need cars is just some sort of fantassy bull**** from gob****es who have no idea how an economy actually works - & seamus, you don't seem to grasp the fact...

Some people need cars for business. Most people don't. Most people drive to work and leave their car in the car park all day. I fail to see how this activity has anything to do with the economy except that the role they play in traffic congestion has a negative impact on the movement of goods and services, thus having a negative impact on the economy.