Wave Software and Piracy

PaulBrewer

http://prosoundnewseurope.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1204&Itemid=75

An article on Waves Software and their attitude to Piracy.

madtheory

Good article! Well balanced and sensible viewpoint IMO.

IMO Waves would be better off making their product more accessible, like using iLok and selling single plugins instead of packages. They're wasting a lot of money chasing pirates, they're never going to make a difference with a dozen successful prosecutions.

There is also a lot of room for improvement in product quality IMO. There's a cheaper and superior alternative out there for everything they make, except the Rennaisance compressor, IMHO. All they're vintage based stuff is just cheap hyped up impusle responses.

I'm very happy with the plugins I've bought to replace the old Waves stuff. The RN Digital eq is better than any of the Waves. The DDMF LP10 is far better than the Waves linear phase offerings. For vintage models, Tritone Digital stuff is great. My final purchase will be Massey L2007, a superior product to L3 in every way. I'm also using the W1 limiter, which is a free VST! It's a great substitute for L1. Although it doesn't do the brightness thing that did, it actually gives a duller sound.

Waves made the first plugins, and they were great thirteen years ago, but they've rested on their laurels compared to everyone else.

dav nagle

Funny read the article last night! I am going through hell updating to version 6! This is the worst buzz ever. I have phoned Waves in the states and the amount of stuff you have to do to update the ilok and so on so forth for a paying customer is obseen, not a happy customer at all at all.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

Funny read the article last night! I am going through hell updating to version 6! This is the worst buzz ever. I have phoned Waves in the states and the amount of stuff you have to do to update the ilok and so on so forth for a paying customer is obseen, not a happy customer at all at all.

In fairness Dav I don't think you can blame any of these issues on Waves themselves can you?

fitz

Who's fault would it be Paul? (Not aware of the commercial model in place for what Dav's complaining about.) Is it iLok?

If it is, tbh, I'd still be blaming Waves. They pick their partners/distributors. If either of those is causing hassle to Waves customers, Waves should be making every effort to resolve that. It's plain lazy for a company to dismiss problems in the supply chain to their customers as not their problem.

dav nagle

I don't mind paying for updates and free plugins that come along with them like the new hybrid delay and compressor or the new centre plug in, they all sound sweet and sold indivually cost 900+ they are a good company protecting themselves and fair play but as a customer it is alot of hassle... I had to watch the upgrade procedure video a milion times to fullly understand the process.

Who is the victim here me or the guy that downloads Waves Mercury (Win) in 5 minutes and has it installed and running with no iLok or dongle or nothing?? because he certainly has it easier than me when I have payed so much for my copy.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Who's fault would it be Paul? .

I'll let Dav explain that!

RealEstateKing

For their plugins. I mean just because Waves SSL , for example is 'modelled' on a peice of hardware that used to cost more than 100 K doesnt mean they can charge $1000 for it.

This is the same logic as me writing a simple word processing program and charging 2000 Euro for it saying "Well back in Guttenbergs day, you had to pay millions for solid gold moveable type and ink imported by ship from India, so at 2000 its a bargain!"

Plus, at the end of the day its just an EQ and compressor plugin - I mean it does the job and everything, but 1000 bucks? Especially (as has been revealed over on Gearslutz) The Analog button does nothing but add a little hiss - and the Eq is no different to any other linear -phase EQ - You can even set up your stock Cubase EQs (q values etc) to be so simlar to it that they will null.

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'll let Dav explain that!

I bought Waves Diamond second hand from an ebay seller who forgot to transfer his iLok account over to mine. He transferred his licence with Waves at a cost of 150 so he did his bit and both Waves and I were happy that I was the new licencer. When I went to upgrade to version 6 I was told that my dongle belonged to another user and permission was denied. I have sent my dongle back to Waves who will destroy it and send me a new licence on a new dongle. The entire process including update is costing me 300. The fact that I have to go through any of this type of messing is a joke. How are we consumers meant to keep up with licensing dongles licensing ownership and insuring are dongles for **** sake I just want to make music and slap a nice plug in in the mix.

PaulBrewer

RealEstateKing wrote: »

For their plugins. I mean just because Waves SSL , for example is 'modelled' on a peice of hardware that used to cost more than 100 K doesnt mean they can charge $1000 for it.

This is the same logic as me writing a simple word processing program and charging 2000 Euro for it saying "Well back in Guttenbergs day, you had to pay millions for solid gold moveable type and ink imported by ship from India, so at 2000 its a bargain!"

Plus, at the end of the day its just an EQ and compressor plugin - I mean it does the job and everything, but 1000 bucks? Especially (as has been revealed over on Gearslutz) The Analog button does nothing but add a little hiss - and the Eq is no different to any other linear -phase EQ - You can even set up your stock Cubase EQs (q values etc) to be so simlar to it that they will null.

Butsure don't buy it then .... No?

fitz

dav nagle wrote: »

I bought Waves Diamond second hand from an ebay seller who forgot to transfer his iLok account over to mine. He transferred his licence with Waves at a cost of 150 so he did his bit and both Waves and I were happy that I was the new licencer. When I went to upgrade to version 6 I was told that my dongle belonged to another user and permission was denied. I have sent my dongle back to Waves who will destroy it and send me a new licence on a new dongle. The entire process including update is costing me 300. The fact that I have to go through any of this type of messing is a joke. How are we consumers meant to keep up with licensing dongles licensing ownership and insuring are dongles for **** sake I just want to make music and slap a nice plug in in the mix.

That's woeful.
I'd vote with my feet tbh.

ICN

fitz wrote: »

That's woeful.
I'd vote with my feet tbh.

Not an option Fitz Mate..

He's already in deep as it, given all the cash that he has spent to date.

They have you over a barrel.

That annoys me.. that when you've acted in good faith & are 100% legitimate, that they (Waves) couldn't do a little something for you.. €300?

You are already upgrading - What a pile of sh1t. What exactly are they going to do exactly that costs €300? !sreknaW

Glad to see that despite the recession, excellent Customer Service & value for money can still be found in the Global market.

PaulBrewer

There are a lot of opinions there....

Is everyone confident they have the full story?

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

There's a lot of opinions there....

Is everyone confident they have the full story?

No - Please enlighten us then!

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

No

Exactly.

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Exactly.

Pity.. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

There are a lot of opinions there....

Is everyone confident they have the full story?

What are you on about 'full story'?

ICN

dav nagle wrote: »

What are you on about 'full story'?

Hey Dav - Didnt you know Mate?

Paul is one of the Brewersteins from Israel*

jtsuited

haha just remembered when I nearly got banned for saying '<snip>'.

good times.

dav nagle

ICN wrote: »

Hey Dav - Didnt you know Mate?

Paul is one of the Brewersteins from Israel*

Well he would want to snap to the buzz :eek:

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

Well he would want to snap to the buzz :eek:

And who's helping you out of this hole Dav?

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

And who's helping you out of this hole Dav?

You are helping me out of this hole but there is no more to the story than I have already said

PaulBrewer

Zactly!

dav nagle

Don't pick on Pedro he is doing the best he can do for a young potato farmer trying to make his own way in life and get his life together (geez where is the pac gone?) you know Pedro is a very defensive little man when he gets his back up.

ICN

jtsuited wrote: »

haha just remembered when I nearly got banned for saying '<snip>'.

good times.

Isn't it great how the things you say in reminisces dont count! :pac:

jtsuited

ICN wrote: »

Isn't it great how the things you say in reminisces dont count! :pac:

haha yeah, and that spot of bother <snip> in the meantime certainly did me a few favours too.

madtheory

RealEstateKing wrote: »

The certainly do charge too much for their plugins.

Yep! They're shooting themselves in the foot with banpiracy.

ICN

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsuited
haha just remembered when I nearly got banned for saying '<snip>'.

good times.


Isn't it great how the things you say in reminisces dont count!

---

Last edited by fitz; Today at 21:14. Reason: yup, still not ok.

No bans though! Hurrah! :pac:

studiorat

In short order, the studio owners received attorney letters informing them that Waves would prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law unless they agreed to settle out of court for a total roughly ten times the amount of the software they stole.

Heavy handed tactics, Waves actually dictating the terms of the settlement before the court case. "Pay us x amount or else we'll take you to court.!"

I read about this 2 or 3 years ago, Waves agents ringing up studios offering to book time and then asking did they have waves plug-ins? Verging on entrapment if you ask me, ringing up studios with offers of large bookings and then insisting on using Waves Plug-ins.

According to Waves' CEO Gilad Keren, who also served in the Israeli Navy for three years. 50% of all studios are using pirated software. Banpiracy the company Waves pay to find "the pirates" say it's 80%.

Oddly enough the Banpiracy organisation state on their website

BanPiracy is an independent organization devoted to the protection of proprietary audio software.

Independent my ass, banpiracy was set up by one Mr. Tomer Elbaz who is in fact an ex-director of Waves. :eek:

jtsuited

studiorat wrote: »

Heavy handed tactics, Waves actually dictating the terms of the settlement before the court case. "Pay us x amount or else we'll take you to court.!"

I read about this 2 or 3 years ago, Waves agents ringing up studios offering to book time and then asking did they have waves plug-ins? Verging on entrapment if you ask me, ringing up studios with offers of large bookings and then insisting on using Waves Plug-ins.

According to Waves' CEO Gilad Keren, who also served in the Israeli Navy for three years. 50% of all studios are using pirated software. Banpiracy the company Waves pay to find "the pirates" say it's 80%.

Oddly enough the Banpiracy organisation state on their website

Independent my ass, banpiracy was set up by one Mr. Tomer Elbaz who is in fact an ex-director of Waves. :eek:

and if I remember correctly, they didn't just go for the big studios with the big budgets. There were stories on gearslutz about them pulling the 'entrapment' on load of barely-professional guys.

I have no problem with companies trying to protect themselves, but the **** they pulled then was so ridiculously disproportionate that you wonder what the hell goes on inside their heads.

11811

Jez - looking for damages is bit much isn't it??
The charging for the software is only right and I think its
fair enough catching out studios with pirate software - if you're doing something professionally you should have the proper and authentic gear, yeah fair enough its dear but its bad form if your making a living out of using tools that you havn't paid for.

Rockshamrover

I came across a legitimate looking site recently that had the Waves Diamond package on "special offer" as a download. Reduced from $3999.00 to...............................$99.00.

This was obviously completely illegal but the site and it's sister sites are up and running. Why can't Waves get these sites shut down?

I have to say, I hate the idea of having to have an ILOK to purchase software. There are lots of companies out there that have a completely different approach. I recently bought some stuff from a company called Stillwell Audio.

They let you download the software as a fully working demo, if you like it you can buy very cheaply.

If you don't want to pay, you can keep the demo forever and all that maks it different from the real thing is a pop up message saying "this is an evaluation copy". Obviously, they want you to pay and the majority of people do.

Has anyone got any non-ILOK software recommendations?

madtheory

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Has anyone got any non-ILOK software recommendations?

Yes:
http://ddmf.eu/
His linear phase eq is better sounding than the Waves one, especially for top end boosts. It's more processor intensive, but that's cool.

But personally, I think iLok is pretty cool.

teamdresch

I love iLoks and I just don't get why some folks seem to hate them.
Perhaps they don't like to be able to bring their plugins with them to various studios or easily use them on different computers without having to go through some lame registration process every time.
*shrug*

Rockshamrover

teamdresch wrote: »

I love iLoks and I just don't get why some folks seem to hate them.
Perhaps they don't like to be able to bring their plugins with them to various studios or easily use them on different computers without having to go through some lame registration process every time.
*shrug*

I know nothing about the ILOKs so please excuse the following if they seem stupid.

Is the software stored on the ILOK? If so what happens if it's damaged or lost? Is there a limit to the amount of stuff you can store on them?


Can you buy the ILOKs in Ireland?

Thanks

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I know nothing about the ILOKs so please excuse the following if they seem stupid.

Is the software stored on the ILOK? If so what happens if it's damaged or lost? Is there a limit to the amount of stuff you can store on them?


Can you buy the ILOKs in Ireland?

Thanks

No, it's just the license for the software. If it's damaged licenses can be transfered once the ilok is accounted for.

If you loose it yer phucked.

Yes

madtheory

For a small fee you can insure your iLok so if you loose it or it breaks you still have your authorisations.

It's good value, given that iLoks are free with many applications and plugins, e.g. Pro Tools LE. You can put authorisations for anything you like onto the PT iLok.

Yes, it is cool to be able to arrive at a studio with your favourite "outboard" on a memory stick and an iLok

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

For a small fee you can insure your iLok so if you loose it or it breaks you still have your authorisations.

It's good value, given that iLoks are free with many applications and plugins, e.g. Pro Tools LE. You can put authorisations for anything you like onto the PT iLok.

Yes, it is cool to be able to arrive at a studio with your favourite "outboard" on a memory stick and an iLok

I didn't know you can insure it. That's with iLok themselves?

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

No, it's just the license for the software. If it's damaged licenses can be transfered once the ilok is accounted for.

If you loose it yer phucked.

Yes

So would it be true to say that the ILOK is mostly for the convenience and security of the software supplier?

Does a program needing an ILOK mean it's of better quality?

One last question, if all else fails can you get a tune out of it:D

woodsdenis

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I didn't know you can insure it. That's with iLok themselves?

Yep it called Zero downtime

Zero Downtime Coverage

The iLok.com Zero Downtime program enables iLok owners to immediately replace licenses in case an iLok is broken, lost or stolen. Benefits of covering an iLok include:

Immediate replacement of licenses in the event of disaster
Priority support during replacement event
Peace of mind
Here's how Zero Downtime works:

Sign up for Zero Downtime coverage for each critical iLok you own. You also purchase spare iLoks as needed for emergency.
When a covered iLok breaks or is lost or stolen, log in to iLok.com and go through the RMA process for the affected iLok.
iLok.com automatically deposits time limited temporary licenses in your account.
Using iLok.com, you download the temporary licenses onto a spare iLok. You can now continue to work using these temporary licenses.
You send us the broken iLok.
Once we've validated the broken iLok, we provide you with permanent replacement licenses in your iLok.com account.
You put the replacement licenses on your spare iLok. You now have a complete replacement of your licenses.
If the iLok was defective and under warranty, we send you a blank replacement. You can use the replacement as your spare if you like.
Zero Downtime coverage costs only $30.00 per iLok per year. Coverage under the plan begins after a 1 week "cooling off" period. If you have an unexpected emergency and wish coverage to begin immediately, you may pay an expediency surcharge.

At the end of the 12-month period, your ZDT subscription(s) will automatically renew using the credit card on file. If there is a problem with your credit card at the time of renewal, you may be notified by email to update this information on iLok.com.

iLoks that are not covered under Zero Downtime may still be replaced using our standard RMA process. However, you will only receive temporary licenses for iLoks that are covered. Also, since covered iLoks receive replacement priority, iLoks that are not covered may take as long as two business weeks to replace.

I actually like Ilok.

but on to the topic. Unfortunately for Waves, their WUP and this
rather heavy handed policy really do not endear themselves to their users.

Dont get me wrong ,they make great plugins, and in the early days they pretty much ruled the roost. These days however there are many more
manufacturers offering just as good at way less.

http://www.masseyplugins.com/index_v2.html?page=home

This guy is brilliant. His L2007 limiter is just as good as the Waves L1,L2,L3
at a fraction of the cost.

There are many more out there, and lets face it Waves is a PR nightmare with all of their issues. If I was running Waves I would be very carefull about how I ran my business, the new guys on the block are snapping at their heels big time.

madtheory

woodsdenis wrote: »

These days however there are many more
manufacturers offering just as good at way less.

http://www.masseyplugins.com/index_v2.html?page=home

This guy is brilliant. His L2007 limiter is just as good as the Waves L1,L2,L3
at a fraction of the cost.

That's wot I said...

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

Yep it called Zero downtime

Zero Downtime Coverage

The iLok.com Zero Downtime program enables iLok owners to immediately replace licenses in case an iLok is broken, lost or stolen. Benefits of covering an iLok include:

Immediate replacement of licenses in the event of disaster
Priority support during replacement event
Peace of mind
Here's how Zero Downtime works:

Sign up for Zero Downtime coverage for each critical iLok you own. You also purchase spare iLoks as needed for emergency.
When a covered iLok breaks or is lost or stolen, log in to iLok.com and go through the RMA process for the affected iLok.
iLok.com automatically deposits time limited temporary licenses in your account.
Using iLok.com, you download the temporary licenses onto a spare iLok. You can now continue to work using these temporary licenses.
You send us the broken iLok.
Once we've validated the broken iLok, we provide you with permanent replacement licenses in your iLok.com account.
You put the replacement licenses on your spare iLok. You now have a complete replacement of your licenses.
If the iLok was defective and under warranty, we send you a blank replacement. You can use the replacement as your spare if you like.
Zero Downtime coverage costs only $30.00 per iLok per year. Coverage under the plan begins after a 1 week "cooling off" period. If you have an unexpected emergency and wish coverage to begin immediately, you may pay an expediency surcharge.

At the end of the 12-month period, your ZDT subscription(s) will automatically renew using the credit card on file. If there is a problem with your credit card at the time of renewal, you may be notified by email to update this information on iLok.com.

iLoks that are not covered under Zero Downtime may still be replaced using our standard RMA process. However, you will only receive temporary licenses for iLoks that are covered. Also, since covered iLoks receive replacement priority, iLoks that are not covered may take as long as two business weeks to replace.

I actually like Ilok.

but on to the topic. Unfortunately for Waves, their WUP and this
rather heavy handed policy really do not endear themselves to their users.

Dont get me wrong ,they make great plugins, and in the early days they pretty much ruled the roost. These days however there are many more
manufacturers offering just as good at way less.

http://www.masseyplugins.com/index_v2.html?page=home

This guy is brilliant. His L2007 limiter is just as good as the Waves L1,L2,L3
at a fraction of the cost.

There are many more out there, and lets face it Waves is a PR nightmare with all of their issues. If I was running Waves I would be very carefull about how I ran my business, the new guys on the block are snapping at their heels big time.

Ah yes, you've jogged my memory. I remember that term now.

Rockshamrover

woodsdenis wrote: »

Yep it called Zero downtime

Zero Downtime Coverage

The iLok.com Zero Downtime program enables iLok owners to immediately replace licenses in case an iLok is broken, lost or stolen. Benefits of covering an iLok include:

Immediate replacement of licenses in the event of disaster
Priority support during replacement event
Peace of mind
Here's how Zero Downtime works:

Sign up for Zero Downtime coverage for each critical iLok you own. You also purchase spare iLoks as needed for emergency.
When a covered iLok breaks or is lost or stolen, log in to iLok.com and go through the RMA process for the affected iLok.
iLok.com automatically deposits time limited temporary licenses in your account.
Using iLok.com, you download the temporary licenses onto a spare iLok. You can now continue to work using these temporary licenses.
You send us the broken iLok.
Once we've validated the broken iLok, we provide you with permanent replacement licenses in your iLok.com account.
You put the replacement licenses on your spare iLok. You now have a complete replacement of your licenses.
If the iLok was defective and under warranty, we send you a blank replacement. You can use the replacement as your spare if you like.
Zero Downtime coverage costs only $30.00 per iLok per year. Coverage under the plan begins after a 1 week "cooling off" period. If you have an unexpected emergency and wish coverage to begin immediately, you may pay an expediency surcharge.

At the end of the 12-month period, your ZDT subscription(s) will automatically renew using the credit card on file. If there is a problem with your credit card at the time of renewal, you may be notified by email to update this information on iLok.com.

iLoks that are not covered under Zero Downtime may still be replaced using our standard RMA process. However, you will only receive temporary licenses for iLoks that are covered. Also, since covered iLoks receive replacement priority, iLoks that are not covered may take as long as two business weeks to replace.

I actually like Ilok.

but on to the topic. Unfortunately for Waves, their WUP and this
rather heavy handed policy really do not endear themselves to their users.

Dont get me wrong ,they make great plugins, and in the early days they pretty much ruled the roost. These days however there are many more
manufacturers offering just as good at way less.

http://www.masseyplugins.com/index_v2.html?page=home

This guy is brilliant. His L2007 limiter is just as good as the Waves L1,L2,L3
at a fraction of the cost.

There are many more out there, and lets face it Waves is a PR nightmare with all of their issues. If I was running Waves I would be very carefull about how I ran my business, the new guys on the block are snapping at their heels big time.

I just had a look at the Massey link, great products and fantastic prices but they don't work in Logic, no AU versions. Ah well. The search goes on.

BuddhaJoe

Rockshamrover wrote: »

So would it be true to say that the ILOK is mostly for the convenience and security of the software supplier?

Yes. I also find its of great convenience to the consumer. For example, I legally purchased Superior 2.0 but unfortunately due to its licensing structure I can only have it installed on two computers concurrently. This sucks for me as I have three that I like to use for music (home pc, macbook and a pc in my rehearsal room) so I had to resort to pirating the plug-in so I could install it on them all. I don't feel I should have to buy it twice when im the only person using it. If they used an I-Lok system I could legally install it on all 3 (and more if I wanted) and just bring my key around with me.

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Does a program needing an ILOK mean it's of better quality?

No.

madtheory

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I just had a look at the Massey link, great products and fantastic prices but they don't work in Logic, no AU versions. Ah well. The search goes on.

Then you should try this:
http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html

But the bundled limiter in logic is really good, and the Apple AU limiter is surprisingly good too.

Rockshamrover

madtheory wrote: »

Then you should try this:
http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html

But the bundled limiter in logic is really good, and the Apple AU limiter is surprisingly good too.

Hey thanks for the links MT, what would you do without Boards all the same.

Sorry Paul for steering your thread of track.:D

woodsdenis

madtheory wrote: »

That's wot I said...

Sorry missed your 1st post

madtheory

No worries Dennis

rocksaham, I just spotted that the W1 dude also has a mastering limiter for small money, it might be worth checking that out too.