Bad timing for Sinn Fein?

mike65

Two republicans, one of whom has strong SF connections have been arrested and are due to be charged today with laundering proceeds from the Northern Bank robbery. Both are Munster men. Will this have any measurable impact on SF candidates in the forthcoming elections?

I know the OP is suposed to have an opinion but I'm not sure if I do have one regarding impact. It should but will it?

Story here

Dyr

Was'nt suprised when I heard it, the gardai usually lift a couple of shinners at election time. Not that it would be politically motivated of course

Joey the lips

Bambi wrote: »

Was'nt suprised when I heard it, the gardai usually lift a couple of shinners at election time. Not that it would be politically motivated of course

Delighted someone else logical saw this! always happens every year! and guess what there will be no proof or something... Remember this brought down stormont years ago and still there was no proof, remember denis donaldson!No proof I can go on big fat yawn!!!!

Its blatent establishment electioneering and its sad but true it still goes on.

I could sit down and list the whole political theory behind it all but I have no doubt there is a gobsh1te waiting to tell me I am daft and they provide no proof to refute my facts!

Roll on June Fianna Fail is fcuked thank god!!!!

blinding

Hopefully the Gardai will lift All of Fianna Fail for institutionalised corruption or will they just continue to turn a blind eye.

Joey the lips

blinding wrote: »

Hopefully the Gardai will lift All of Fianna Fail for institutionalised corruption or will they just continue to turn a blind eye.

That will actually improve fianna fails vote surprising becuase of course the garda ombudsman would agree it was overhanded and the garda repremanded and they get the sympathetic vote. Holy sh1t there is a good streategy!!!!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jesus1222

I'm certainly no Sinn Féin supporter but haven't they decomissioned their weapons and formally announced that their war is over? They're at the step before disbanding.

Pontificating adds nothing to debates, imo.

nuttz

Bambi wrote: »

Was'nt suprised when I heard it, the gardai usually lift a couple of shinners at election time. Not that it would be politically motivated of course

I'm not entirely convinced this was the motive for their arrest. The case against Ted Cunningham only finished last month, I would imagine that the Gardai were waiting to see how that case panned out first, before proceeding against these two. Is it possible that Mr Cunningham gave them some info?

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

'was', I think you mean.

irishgrover

Bambi wrote: »

Was'nt suprised when I heard it, the gardai usually lift a couple of shinners at election time. Not that it would be politically motivated of course

In fairness to Sinn Fein members, they tend to get arrested for various alleged offenses throughout the whole year..., it's just more noticeable at higher profile times

Joey the lips

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

:rolleyes: that olive branch is well and truly beaten. This is so old and so boreing its almost as trip as compareing Labour to the official IRA

Get back to topic you pooor pooor fianna failer

Joey the lips

irishgrover wrote: »

In fairness to Sinn Fein members, they tend to get arrested for various alleged offenses throughout the whole year..., it's just more noticeable at higher profile times

In fairness, Examples! Is this afterhours! I think so! this has more speculation than the property market! I really love a daft thread on a tuesday!

mike65

Joey the lips, last time I checked you were not a Politics Mod.

Interyurauldone

nuttz wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced this was the motive for their arrest. The case against Ted Cunningham only finished last month, I would imagine that the Gardai were waiting to see how that case panned out first, before proceeding against these two. Is it possible that Mr Cunningham gave them some info?

I think you're right, Cunningham spilled the beans which led to these arrests.

But I can understand where people are coming from regarding Sinn Fein members getting arrested. Martin Ferris was arrested in the run up to the GE in 2007 on a suspicion of drink driving, only to be found innocent when the blood/urine results came back.

Dyr

irishgrover wrote: »

In fairness to Sinn Fein members, they tend to get arrested for various alleged offenses throughout the whole year..., it's just more noticeable at higher profile times

I demand figures on sinn fein members being tried or convicted on "official" business in the last calendar year

Joey the lips

mike65 wrote: »

Joey the lips, last time I checked you were not a Politics Mod.

Now with all due respect which translates to you support daft comments like that. Why dont you just retitle the thread! This is political discussion! Has the GFA been forgotten. Is everybody going to do an Ian Paisley and beat sinn fein with the IRA forever or start talking politics

By the way as I said, Proof has been lacking so far!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishgrover

Joey the lips wrote: »

In fairness, Examples! Is this afterhours! I think so! this has more speculation than the property market! I really love a daft thread on a tuesday!

seriously Joey, do I really need to do a Google search, compile a list of dates, and complete an analysis on statistic clusters or otherwise of Sinn Fein members arrests for alleged offenses.... my point was that it would appear to me that members of Sinn Fein have in recent years been arrested more often than say members of the Greens, or any other 'mainstream' political party I know of in this jurisdiction, and that their arrests are not strictly limited to periods close to elections, and therefore the impact of the arrests will probably have limited impact on their core vote..
Members of Sinn Fein being arrested is nothing new..

Do you really or honestly think that this is not the case?

mike65

Joey the lips wrote: »

By the way as I said, Proof has been lacking so far!

Well if they are charged then proof will need to be produced so we'll have to wait eh?

Joey the lips

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was a juxta position of methaphors ie beating a dead horse and that olive branch has been handed

I am not getting into the english language I am Irish after all thanks!

and I am not ordering anybody around and it was not me who went completly off topic

You must agree but what is this doing in politics for such a daft comment!

There is no where to go but argue!! why talk!

Joey the lips

irishgrover wrote: »

seriously Joey, do I really need to do a Google search, compile a list of dates, and complete an analysis on statistic clusters or otherwise of Sinn Fein members arrests for alleged offenses.... my point was that it would appear to me that members of Sinn Fein have in recent years been arrested more often than say members of the Greens, or any other 'mainstream' political party I know of in this jurisdiction, and that their arrests are not strictly limited to periods close to elections, and therefore the impact of the arrests will probably have limited impact on their core vote..
Members of Sinn Fein being arrested is nothing new..

Do you really or honestly think that this is not the case?

You said it!!!! and i say electioneering always thanks

irishgrover

Joey the lips wrote: »

You said it!!!! always thanks

Yes, I said alleged offenses, which is exactly the same phrase I used in my initial post, which I still stand over completely and still fail to see what your issue is with it?

the_syco

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

On the one hand, they support ex-terrorists, and the people who dislike SF remember this. On the other hand, the current freedom fighters reject them, as they've gone soft, and accept money from the crown, so they've lost some of te hardcore people. And the rest are sheep who thing that SF in power will be good, and not just f**k up the ecomony worse with their stupid corpo tax rates.

As for the lads arrested, Tom Hanlon got nabbed back in 2005 for more of the same http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/1483878/2.3m-in-bags-linked-to-IRA-money-laundering.html

MikeC101

the_syco wrote: »

On the one hand, they support ex-terrorists, and the people who dislike SF remember this. On the other hand, the current freedom fighters reject them, as they've gone soft, and accept money from the crown, so they've lost some of te hardcore people. And the rest are sheep who thing that SF in power will be good, and not just f**k up the ecomony worse with their stupid corpo tax rates.

As for the lads arrested, Tom Hanlon got nabbed back in 2005 for more of the same http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/1483878/2.3m-in-bags-linked-to-IRA-money-laundering.html

Some good points.

I think it's a big problem for Sinn Fein in trying to become a truly legitimate political party this side of the border. On the one hand some of their support does seem to be people (I know a few) who like saying things like "Up the Ra" and "get the brits out of our country" and don't really seem to think any further than that. On the other there's also a young, socialist element to their support too. It's got to be hard trying to reconcile the two.

In my opinion it'll take a few more generations before Sinn Fein have moved far enough away from the PIRA for me to even begin to consider giving them a vote.

Joey the lips

MikeC101 wrote: »

Some good points.

I think it's a big problem for Sinn Fein in trying to become a truly legitimate political party this side of the border. On the one hand some of their support does seem to be people (I know a few) who like saying things like "Up the Ra" and "get the brits out of our country" and don't really seem to think any further than that. On the other there's also a young, socialist element to their support too. It's got to be hard trying to reconcile the two.

In my opinion it'll take a few more generations before Sinn Fein have moved far enough away from the PIRA for me to even begin to consider giving them a vote.

IMO that has been my experience too.But you have to admit those canvassing for votes obv feel they are in with a chance.

nesf

Joey the lips wrote: »

:rolleyes: that olive branch is well and truly beaten. This is so old and so boreing its almost as trip as compareing Labour to the official IRA

Get back to topic you pooor pooor fianna failer

Joey the lips wrote: »

In fairness, Examples! Is this afterhours! I think so! this has more speculation than the property market! I really love a daft thread on a tuesday!

Less of the backseat moderation please. You don't have the right to dictate how others post on here.

FTA69

MikeC101 wrote: »

Some good points.

On the one hand some of their support does seem to be people (I know a few) who like saying things like "Up the Ra" and "get the brits out of our country" and don't really seem to think any further than that. On the other there's also a young, socialist element to their support too. It's got to be hard trying to reconcile the two.

The former crowd are a very small minority and the vast majority of them don't even bother voting. Sinn Féin's core support comes from normal working class people in urban and border areas, the whole "Celtic supporter in the pub" thing is simply an ignorant stereotype.

MikeC101

FTA69 wrote: »

The former crowd are a very small minority and the vast majority of them don't even bother voting. Sinn Féin's core support comes from normal working class people in urban and border areas, the whole "Celtic supporter in the pub" thing is simply an ignorant stereotype.

Based on the people I know who vote for, and are members of (one is a councillor) Sinn Fein there seems to be some truth in it, at least in the areas I'm familiar with. While I haven't done extensive research on it, it does seem to hold up fairly well in my area.

However, dismissing that with a claim of "ignorant stereotyping" is a nice and easy way to to finish off an argument without any need for factual input on your behalf.

nesf

FTA69 wrote: »

The former crowd are a very small minority and the vast majority of them don't even bother voting. Sinn Féin's core support comes from normal working class people in urban and border areas, the whole "Celtic supporter in the pub" thing is simply an ignorant stereotype.

I've known three types of SF supporter. The "Celtic supporter in the pub", the young socialist and finally the moderate Republican who genuinely wants to see a peaceful progression to a 32 country State.

Whisko

The 32 country state is the solution to all our problems. Id never want to share a country with u cork ones

Can'tseeme

Since the ceasefire and the GFA, Sinn Fein have pulled in huge numbers of SDLP supporters in the north who became disilusioned with the party, especially young nationalists.

mike65

Update two charged with IRA membership.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0512/northernbank.html

Joey the lips

mike65 wrote: »

Update two charged with IRA membership.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0512/northernbank.html

would you bet €10 to the SVP says they will be dropped but keep it up it suits fianna fail to constantly link sinn fein to the IRA.

In your eyes they never go away and believe it or not people with this attitude do more for there popularity than anybody in sinn fein or the IRA.


Why? History has a way of making roses from nettles!

Dr Galen

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

MikeC101

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

Well you have to admit it is a lot easier to cover your ears and yell at people "It's Fianna Fail! They're behind this! You only believe this because you love Fianna Fail" than trying to think critically about the matter.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy blaming FF for things as much as the next guy, but this is a ridiculous stretch.

There's a mentality among core party supporters (of all parties) that their party can do no wrong, it's always someone elses fault. Selection bias at work I suppose, it's a frightening thing to see in action.

Joey the lips

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

Watch this space, people only being charged now! this brought down the northern assembly in guess what year.

If you stick here long enough someone will convice you gerry adams is running as pope! thats how daft the non factual evidence has gotten.

oh and before someone says it lads being charged means nothing. it happens as a norm under the prevention of terrorism act!

Dr Galen

Joey the lips wrote: »

Watch this space, people only being charged now! this brought down the northern assembly in guess what year.

If you stick here long enough someone will convice you gerry adams is running as pope! thats how daft the non factual evidence has gotten.

oh and before someone says it lads being charged means nothing. it happens as a norm under the prevention of terrorism act!

i'm not sure i follow you here Joey.....was that a yes?

FTA69

MikeC101 wrote: »

Based on the people I know who vote for, and are members of (one is a councillor) Sinn Fein there seems to be some truth in it, at least in the areas I'm familiar with. While I haven't done extensive research on it, it does seem to hold up fairly well in my area.

Good for you, I spent my entire teenage years involved in that organisation and as such I am fully aware of those who constitute its membership. Are there eejits who would espouse support for "the Ra" and all that bollocks? Of course there are, all organisations will attract eejits of one hue or another. What I am saying is that these type of people are very rarely members of the party, they couldn't be f*cked coming to meetings and wouldn't be seen in a million years out canvassing, leafleting, at a protest etc. Neither do they form a core support base, the core support are simply normal, often blue-collar people in working-class areas. The vast majority of these people support Sinn Féin because of thier local community work and the perception they represent the marginalised working class. These people are too busy working and worrying about to give a sh*t about "the Ra" or "Brits Out".

The fact a Republican function or whatever may attract a number of foolish big-mouths doesn't really reflect anything other than the fact some fools like to listen to cheesy rebel music.

However, dismissing that with a claim of "ignorant stereotyping" is a nice and easy way to to finish off an argument without any need for factual input on your behalf.

As opposed to what? You're factual input? All you have to contend is that you know a few people who support Sinn Féin etc, hardly "factual input" like. I'm simply warning against believeing in or perpetuating stereotypes, that's all.

MM,

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

They've done it before like, but I doubt this is a case of them attempting to scupper Sinn Féin. It probably won't even impact the party that much to tell you the truth.

rsynnott

Joey the lips wrote: »

Delighted someone else logical saw this! always happens every year! and guess what there will be no proof or something... Remember this brought down stormont years ago and still there was no proof, remember denis donaldson!No proof I can go on big fat yawn!!!!

Its blatent establishment electioneering and its sad but true it still goes on.

I could sit down and list the whole political theory behind it all but I have no doubt there is a gobsh1te waiting to tell me I am daft and they provide no proof to refute my facts!

Roll on June Fianna Fail is fcuked thank god!!!!

So, erm, should the police simply ignore criminals who happen to be aligned with political parties?

Dr Galen

FTA69 wrote: »

MM,



They've done it before like, but I doubt this is a case of them attempting to scupper Sinn Féin. It probably won't even impact the party that much to tell you the truth.

i certainly wouldn't try and argue that government and security forces collusion has taken place. we know it has, and indeed I'd be of the opinion that more evidence of this nature will emerge in time.

but to even suspect that this might be the case, in today's society, is a bit too CT for my liking.

MikeC101

FTA69 wrote: »

Good for you, I spent my entire teenage years involved in that organisation and as such I am fully aware of those who constitute its membership. Are there eejits who would espouse support for "the Ra" and all that bollocks? Of course there are, all organisations will attract eejits of one hue or another. What I am saying is that these type of people are very rarely members of the party, they couldn't be f*cked coming to meetings and wouldn't be seen in a million years out canvassing, leafleting, at a protest etc. Neither do they form a core support base, the core support are simply normal, often blue-collar people in working-class areas. The vast majority of these people support Sinn Féin because of thier local community work and the perception they represent the marginalised working class. These people are too busy working and worrying about to give a sh*t about "the Ra" or "Brits Out".

The fact a Republican function or whatever may attract a number of foolish big-mouths doesn't really reflect anything other than the fact some fools like to listen to cheesy rebel music.

As opposed to what? You're factual input? All you have to contend is that you know a few people who support Sinn Féin etc, hardly "factual input" like. I'm simply warning against believeing in or perpetuating stereotypes, that's all.

In my opinion dismissing something someone says as an "ignorant stereotype" is a lazy way of arguing and an underhand way of trying to call the poster ignorant. At no point did I claim people in Celtic jerseys were Sinn Feins core element, I merely said some of their support is of that ilk. As someone who has been involved with the party for so long, I'd be of the opinion that you have a bias in trying to present it in the best light possible.

MikeC101

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i certainly wouldn't try and argue that government and security forces collusion has taken place. we know it has, and indeed I'd be of the opinion that more evidence of this nature will emerge in time.

but to even suspect that this might be the case, in today's society, is a bit too CT for my liking.

Watch your quoting there MM - they weren't my words.

Joey the lips

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'm not sure i follow you here Joey.....was that a yes?

That was a yes bob!

Dr Galen

MikeC101 wrote: »

Watch your quoting there MM - they weren't my words.

apologies MikeC101, that was my mistake. Delete key obviously decided to stop working, certainly wasn't me not really paying enough attention

They were definitely not your words.

Dr Galen

Joey the lips wrote: »

That was a yes bob!

ok and is there anything to back up, what is quite a serious allegation there Joey?

cos if your ever proven to be right, then thats a fundamental problem with the nature of our state, our government and the democracy.

Turner

It was the DPP who decided that these men were to be charged.

Not the Gardai, or the government.

The Gardai only collected the facts and presented them to the DPP's office.

Liam Byrne

Bambi wrote: »

I demand figures on sinn fein members being tried or convicted on "official" business in the last calendar year

Some hope, Bambi! They'd probably say that it wasn't "official" or "sanctioned" :rolleyes:

+1 on the Gardai going after corrupt FFers, though - let's treat ALL scum the same way...

djpbarry

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

Indeed; Sinn Féin are more than capable of making themselves look bad without assistance from anyone.

FTA69

MikeC101 wrote: »

In my opinion dismissing something someone says as an "ignorant stereotype" is a lazy way of arguing and an underhand way of trying to call the poster ignorant.

You're entitled to your opinion, all I said was that the notion of Republicans or Sinn Féin voters being boorish, nationalistic eejits was an ignorant stereotype, an ignorant stereotype that you yourself said "there was some truth to."

At no point did I claim people in Celtic jerseys were Sinn Feins core element, I merely said some of their support is of that ilk.

And I outlined that 99% of the time these people aren't really supporters at all as they very rarely join the party or do anything for it. Half of the crowd shouting "up the Ra" in the pub wouldn't even buy a newspaper off you. Neither do these people tend to vote. The fact someone writes "IRA" on a pub jacks wall or whatever doesn't necessarily make them a "supporter".

As someone who has been involved with the party for so long, I'd be of the opinion that you have a bias in trying to present it in the best light possible.

I'd be of the opinion that your opinion is nonsense considering I have zero time for Sinn Féin these days, I wouldn't vote for them at all. However, I did spend enough time in that organisation to know what I'm talking about.

Souljacker

I doubt it, it's nothing new. Anyone who votes for SF must first suspend their morality.

Their party line is that it was right for the PIRA to kidnap a mother of 10, torture and murder her, hide her body and label her a traitor for over 30 years and refuse to tell her children where they dumped her body because she went outside her home to try and give first aid to a teenage British soldier shot dead by and provo sniper.

Members of SF are involved in robbery and money laundering? I doubt anyone in Ireland would be surprised, members in the hierarchy of SF have been involved in much worse.

MikeC101

FTA69 wrote: »

MikeC101 wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinion, all I said was that the notion of Republicans or Sinn Féin voters being boorish, nationalistic eejits was an ignorant stereotype, an ignorant stereotype that you yourself said "there was some truth to."

Fair enough. I think you made a big leap from if you interpreted "some of their support" as being the same as painting all SF supporters as boorish nationalistic eejits.
But there IS some truth to it - it's a fact that some of their support are the Celtic jersey wearing eejits who like scrawling slogans on cubicle doors. I'd consider it being ignorant of the facts to think otherwise. Whether they make up a large number or even vote much, I don't know.

FTA69 wrote: »

And I outlined that 99% of the time these people aren't really supporters at all as they very rarely join the party or do anything for it. Half of the crowd shouting "up the Ra" in the pub wouldn't even buy a newspaper off you. Neither do these people tend to vote. The fact someone writes "IRA" on a pub jacks wall or whatever doesn't necessarily make them a "supporter".

99% - I suppose you've figures to prove this :rolleyes:
To be honest if we're starting to play semantics about what defines a "supporter", I'm out of this debate. For me, I'd consider someone espousing to hold SF in high esteem, whether they vote for them or not, as a supporter. Though I don't know how you're so sure none of these people vote for SF ?

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that your opinion is nonsense considering I have zero time for Sinn Féin these days, I wouldn't vote for them at all. However, I did spend enough time in that organisation to know what I'm talking about.

Fair enough, glad to hear that.