Who's going to Hell?

dvpower

I must be upfront and say that I don't believe in Hell personally and I don't want to get into what Hell is (at least not on this thread).

But, someone told me recently that as an Atheist, I will be going to Hell. Since I don't believe in Hell, this doesn't bother me so much, but the person who told me I would be going there does believe in its existance, and, by all accounts, its not a good place to be. It seemed to me to be a bit unfair for me to be sent to Hell, and when I thought about it, it seemed unfair to send anyone to Hell.

So I wondered, what is the criteria for avoiding Hell?

Who goes? You decide!
(with apologies for the composite characters)

Matt: Matt is an Atheist. He is a nice enough guy, has a strong moral/ethical code and tries to live his life according to his principals (but often fails). He was brought up as a catholic but rejected this in his early twenties and hasn’t looked back. While he has great respect for religious people, he fundamentally disagrees with them and can be vocal in his disagreement. He would like to see Christians leave their Christianity behind.

Mary: A woman from far off Giberobia. Never came in contact with religion (but there was that time when some white guy knocked on her door spouting on about ‘Jesus’). Lives a straightforward life; farming, fishing, candle stick making. When she feels she needs guidance, she consults with her local shaman.

Lucy: A woman, brought up in a leafy Dublin suburb to a liberal, catholic family. She stopped going to mass a long time ago and, like her peers, doesn’t really think about religion, or god, or any of that kind of stuff. She does have a child and has had the child baptised. She leads a normal life. She subscribes to what she calls liberal values; she is pro choice, pro contraception, votes Labour. She disagrees with her church on many issues. She thinks the buddhists have the right idea (she doesn’t know the first thing about Buddhism).

Joe: A devout Christian. Went into a seminary at a young age and has devoted his life to the service of others. Became a priest and has lived his life in the service of God and his community. Has brought great comfort to many of his parishioners, particularly when they have been bereaved and is greatly respected. At one point in his life he sexually abused a young person in his trust. He has regretted this ever since, but still has feelings that he knows are wrong. He prays for the strength not to offend again, but he has strong residual feelings and fears that he may.

O'Coonassa

dvpower wrote: »

Who goes? You decide!

I don't think I do.

philologos

No, Christians are commanded not to judge on this, and I've had people ask me very hard questions on this before, and I've said "It's up to God to decide".

As for avoiding hell, the Bible is rather clear. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Romans 10), there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus (Romans 8). Christ is the only bridge between humanity and God so that we may atone for our sins and be made righteous before God in the final days through grace. It is by grace we are saved (Ephesians 2).

Jesus Wept

Matt: Definitely.
Mary: My sources say no.
Lucy: Maybe
Joe: Absolutely!

Rev Hellfire

I'd guess none of them.

PDN

The Bible indicates that those who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ go to hell. So, going on the information you have given I would say:

1. Matt. Probably going to hell since it would appear that he has rejected the Gospel.

2. Mary. I have absolutely no idea. The Bible doesn't tell us.

3. Lucy. Probably going to hell since it would appear that she has rejected the Gospel.

4. Joe. You don't give enough information. Being a devout Catholic is not enough, and there is no indication that he has personally accepted Christ's offer of salvation instead of just trusting in Church ritual and dogma.

dvpower

Jakkass wrote: »

No, Christians are commanded not to judge on this, and I've had people ask me very hard questions on this before, and I've said "It's up to God to decide".

These characters are fictional, so no one will actually be going to hell based on answers posted here.*

*Terms and conditions apply

Jakkass wrote: »

As for avoiding hell, the Bible is rather clear. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Romans 10), there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus (Romans 8). Christ is the only bridge between humanity and God so that we may atone for our sins and be made righteous before God in the final days through grace. It is by grace we are saved (Ephesians 2).

This makes it sound quite easy to avoid hell (believe and atone).

Here's my tuppence worth.

Matt: Matt has rejected Jesus Christ and, so according to the rules will go to hell. On judgement day, he argues with God that had he accepted that God exists, and that Jesus and God were one, he most certainly would have followed Jesus, but God just didn't provide sufficient evidence. He further argues that since he wasn't a believer, whatever about getting in heaven, he certainly shouldn't be going to hell. This arguement doesn't wash with God. Matt goes to hell.

Mary: Since Mary never knew about God/Jesus in the first place, she didn't have the option to believe or not. (God wonders where Mary got her name from, but doesn't dwell on it). Mary escapes hell.

Lucy: Lucy was thought all about Jesus, but decided not to take Him seriously. Its a tough call for God, but the rules are the rules. Lucy goes to hell.

Joe: Joe has sinned in the most grave way, but has repented and has tried to avoid sin. Joe avoids hell (but only by the skin of his teeth).

Seaneh

dvpower wrote: »

Matt: Matt is an Atheist. He is a nice enough guy, has a strong moral/ethical code and tries to live his life according to his principals (but often fails). He was brought up as a catholic but rejected this in his early twenties and hasn’t looked back. While he has great respect for religious people, he fundamentally disagrees with them and can be vocal in his disagreement. He would like to see Christians leave their Christianity behind.

Matt is going to Hell, he rejects Christ, he doesn't accept his salvation, bye bye Matt.

dvpower wrote: »

Mary: A woman from far off Giberobia. Never came in contact with religion (but there was that time when some white guy knocked on her door spouting on about ‘Jesus’). Lives a straightforward life; farming, fishing, candle stick making. When she feels she needs guidance, she consults with her local shaman.

This is tricker, whatdid she hear? Did she hear "Hi Im bob from Ohio, I wanna talk to you ab out Jesus" followed by saying "Sorry, im busy, go away" or did she have a chance to actually hear the gospel? If it's the first, who knows, thats God's decission, if it's the second, she rejected the Gospel, she rejected salvation, sorry Mary, you're outta here.

dvpower wrote: »

Lucy: A woman, brought up in a leafy Dublin suburb to a liberal, catholic family. She stopped going to mass a long time ago and, like her peers, doesn’t really think about religion, or god, or any of that kind of stuff. She does have a child and has had the child baptised. She leads a normal life. She subscribes to what she calls liberal values; she is pro choice, pro contraception, votes Labour. She disagrees with her church on many issues. She thinks the buddhists have the right idea (she doesn’t know the first thing about Buddhism).

Lucy, if she does not believe in christ and has not accepted Salvation, is a gonner, simple as.

dvpower wrote: »

Joe: A devout Christian. Went into a seminary at a young age and has devoted his life to the service of others. Became a priest and has lived his life in the service of God and his community. Has brought great comfort to many of his parishioners, particularly when they have been bereaved and is greatly respected. At one point in his life he sexually abused a young person in his trust. He has regretted this ever since, but still has feelings that he knows are wrong. He prays for the strength not to offend again, but he has strong residual feelings and fears that he may.

As PDN has said, it's all well and Good Joe believeing in God, but Does he believe in Jesus, did he accept Jesus' sacrafice or is he one of those truely strange Catholics who believe in MAry and Prays to her rather and asks for her guidence rather than Jesus?

IMHO, if Joe truely was serving God/Christ, he never would abused somebody in his care, so IMHO, Joe isn't serving God/Christ. I'd say Joe is on the Edge and could fall over.

But who am I to Judge? That's God's job.

Lovethinking

dvpower wrote: »

I must be upfront and say that I don't believe in Hell personally and I don't want to get into what Hell is (at least not on this thread).

With so many different understandings of what Hell is,,, is it not foolish to ask a question about it without defining it?... at least state what you think it means, so that everyone is on the same page.
e.g.
Tommy thinks hell is a fiery place of eternal torture (hot pokers thrown in for free)
Jimmy thinks it's a state of mind
Niamh thinks it's just not seeing God
Danny thinks it's being wormfood in the ground
and so on.......

dvpower

Lovethinking wrote: »

With so many different understandings of what Hell is,,, is it not foolish to ask a question about it without defining it?

Not really. The rules for going there are the same, regardless of how it is defined.

Lovethinking wrote: »

... at least state what you think it means, so that everyone is on the same page.

As an atheist, I don't actually think it exists. But i'm aware of two different interpretations. Broadly,

1. It is a state of being without God.
2. Fire and brimstone.

This might become very important if it turns out that I'm wrong about my atheism and I'm subjected to hell as a consequence. This being the case, I'd be hoping for the first hell.

Húrin

I don't believe in everlasting punishment in hell, so IMO none of them are going to that place. It is unlikely however that anyone but Joe will go to heaven.

Underbadger

All 4 characters


unrepentant sin will lead to hell eternal

in the case of the catholic priest, he hates god in his heart by your description.

.... he cannot bring his wrong to cross but clings to it along with his false Antichrist idol worshipping catholic 'doctrine'


its worth noting (however depressing) that the huge majority of mankind will be cast into hell by a just god.

monosharp

And this is why I have absolutely no time for 90% of Christians (100% of Evangelists)/Muslims and Jews.

So Matt, the good natured guy with good morals is going to hell.
Mary might be going to hell simply because of geography. Nothing to do with been a good person or not.
Lucy is going to hell because she gives religion the most minimum of time in her life. Again, regardless of been a good person or not.

Whereas Joe the pedophile who says "sorry" and has secret dirty thoughts about little boys and fears he'll do it again after saying sorry will go to heaven because he 'believes' in God/Jesus.

I mean honestly, i'm losing faith in humanity at this stage. Do you people honestly believe this rubbish ? Haven't you got minds of your own ?

I am not talking about believing in God or not, I'm talking about believing in rubbish like the above.

Whether or not there is a God, if he is anything remotely similar to the God described in the Bible following the rules in the Bible which are so clearly man-made rules and rubbish it should be obvious to anyone this was not written by any deity.

Saruman

+1

Lets try a real life scenario. I was brought up a Christian, devoted the first part of my life to God. I accepted Jesus into my life. When I was ready I asked to be baptised. I had even thought of being a missionary.

Then one day (very late teens) I grew up and started using my brain. Logic is a dangerous thing when it comes to faith and logic won in the end.
I no longer believe in the Bible except the historical aspects of it. I no longer believe in God the way any religion portrays him. If there is a God or supreme being in the universe, perhaps the universe itself and we are just wheels on the cog like the bacteria in my stomach then I doubt he gives a crap who believes in him.
I say him as its easier than using "It"

I have already accepted Jesus in my life, now I do not believe but at the time I did.
Am I going to Hell? Based on what the Bible says?

robindch

In recent years, I must say that it's this one aspect of the christian religion that I find the most obviously made-up. In effect, the religion -- via its holy books and preachers -- is selling people a simple idea: "believe me and you will become immortal in paradise". As an idea, that can be an easy sell to mortal beings, especially those who are having a bad time of it.

Each person who comes into contact with the religion must make a decision which is rarely made explicit: do you believe it's more likely (a) that a deity will promise to make you immortal if you can convince yourself that he exists, or (b) that somebody, somewhere simply invented this promise, and he or his successors found that if it was passed it off as genuine, that people would believe it and that worldly benefits would then accrue to preachers and believers alive?

The former requires a deity with a weird sense of humor and a mafia-style approach to friendship, the latter requires nothing more than for humans to behave as humans.

Occam's knife cuts that decision in only one way.

Saruman

Actually a deity with a weird sense of humor and mafia style approach to friendship is pretty much how God comes across in the Bible.
God must have been pissing his pants when he asked Abraham to kill his son. Oh the laugh they had in heaven almost caused another flood.
I wonder is that what caused the first flood? God heard a funny joke (or smote a few thousand heathens) and pissed his pants so hard he wiped out all life on earth.

hobochris

I'm a man of logic which according to you Christians means I'm "going to hell"...

According to the book(the bible) you all blindly follow: we are all gods children(atheists included). It also has a message throughout that god forgives all.

So even if we are all "going to hell" according to the bible, a book which has clearly been written by clergy men with an agenda of their own(i.e. keep the people in line and fearing the wrath should they betray the rulings of this man made cult masquerading under the name of god)... not "just the word of god".. we will be forgiven.

just my two cents.

philologos

Saruman wrote: »

Lets try a real life scenario. I was brought up a Christian, devoted the first part of my life to God. I accepted Jesus into my life. When I was ready I asked to be baptised. I had even thought of being a missionary.

See below. Accepting Jesus into your life only happens with understanding, thought, and actually using your brain.

Saruman wrote: »

Then one day (very late teens) I grew up and started using my brain. Logic is a dangerous thing when it comes to faith and logic won in the end.

I considered my beliefs for a very long time, I used my brain and I found out that Christianity possessed the most logical belief system concerning the world mans nature and so on. Waffling on about "logic" being monopolised by atheists won't make your point any more conclusive.

Saruman wrote: »

I no longer believe in the Bible except the historical aspects of it. I no longer believe in God the way any religion portrays him. If there is a God or supreme being in the universe, perhaps the universe itself and we are just wheels on the cog like the bacteria in my stomach then I doubt he gives a crap who believes in him.
I say him as its easier than using "It"

Fair enough. I think it's unfortunate that you came to this conclusion.

Saruman wrote: »

I have already accepted Jesus in my life, now I do not believe but at the time I did.
Am I going to Hell? Based on what the Bible says?

No, you were never truly saved if you have rejected faith. The Bible says that nobody can be snatched out of Christ's hand (John 10).

If you are without belief in Christ at the point of death, you will be without Christ's defence at the Final Judgement. Jesus said whoever denies Him in public will be denied by the Father.

hobochris: The New Testament is dated to the first century, the Old Testament to 450BC. The Old Testament wasn't even written by Christians, but by Jews.

Saruman

Jakkass wrote: »

No, you were never truly saved if you have rejected faith. The Bible says that nobody can be snatched out of Christ's hand (John 10).

I was never truly saved? Well of course not as to my mind now there is nothing to be saved from. However to my thinking back then I was saved, not only was I saved myself I "saved" others. I even went door to door once. I used to preach to classmates and friends all the time and I convinced others to invite the Lord into their hearts.
I felt the Holy spirit in me, that warm fuzzy feeling that is generated by my own body. The same sort of feeling you get seeing fluffy kittens and so on. Oh I am sure you will say that it is not the same feeling but it is.

If I truly believed I was saved, If every member of my Church and Bible study group, youth club etc thought I was saved then how can YOU a person I have never met say I was not "truly saved"?

Its all a moot point as I do not believe in any of it any more but the fact remains that as far as myself and the rest of the world was concerned I WAS saved.


By your logic I could have continued to believe and on my deathbed for one split second after a horrible and long, painful death and seeing everyone I ever loved butchered or pretty much had the ****tyist life imaginable that for the split second before I died that I reject God and tough crap for my soul.

philologos

Saruman: According to the Biblical text that cannot have been the case. Maybe you did think it, and maybe you were in the Parable of the Sower type stage whereby you were waiting to take root, however if you are truly in Christ nothing can separate you from His glory (Romans 8). As for other people thinking you were saved, people can be easily deceived.

You need to believe in Christ to be truly saved, there is no other way. He is the way to the Father. People mightn't like that but that's the Christian take on it. Paul even says if you doubt even eating is a sin (Romans 14:23).

I hope that you do reconsider and return. I believe the Gospel can offer you and others a lot in daily life

wolfsbane

robindch wrote: »

In recent years, I must say that it's this one aspect of the christian religion that I find the most obviously made-up. In effect, the religion -- via its holy books and preachers -- is selling people a simple idea: "believe me and you will become immortal in paradise". As an idea, that can be an easy sell to mortal beings, especially those who are having a bad time of it.

Each person who comes into contact with the religion must make a decision which is rarely made explicit: do you believe it's more likely (a) that a deity will promise to make you immortal if you can convince yourself that he exists, or (b) that somebody, somewhere simply invented this promise, and he or his successors found that if it was passed it off as genuine, that people would believe it and that worldly benefits would then accrue to preachers and believers alive?

The former requires a deity with a weird sense of humor and a mafia-style approach to friendship, the latter requires nothing more than for humans to behave as humans.

Occam's knife cuts that decision in only one way.

You logic is flawed as it is based on faulty premises. The one who hears the gospel is not entirely ignorant of God, so the call to belief is a reasonable demand of a Creator on His creature. They do not have to convince themselves He exists. They just have to follow the evidence that confirms what they already know in their hearts but have suppressed.

wolfsbane

hobochris said:

I'm a man of logic which according to you Christians means I'm "going to hell"...

Not at all. Logic is a wonderful gift from God.

According to the book(the bible) you all blindly follow: we are all gods children(atheists included).

Only in the sense of being made in His image. Spiritually, mankind is divided between the sons of God and the sons of Satan:

John 8:37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

It also has a message throughout that god forgives all.

No, only those who repent and believe.

So even if we are all "going to hell" according to the bible, a book which has clearly been written by clergy men with an agenda of their own(i.e. keep the people in line and fearing the wrath should they betray the rulings of this man made cult masquerading under the name of god)

I see nothing 'clear' about your assertion. It is your interpretation of the motives of the writers. You could just as easily say every kind act by anyone has a perverse, controlling motive.

... not "just the word of god".. we will be forgiven.

As above, only those who repent and believe are promised forgiveness. Those who refuse are promised eternal wrath.

monosharp

wolfsbane wrote: »

hobochris said:
Not at all. Logic is a wonderful gift from God.

Blind faith is the opposite of logic. The Bible itself is completely illogical and full of more holes and contradictions its laughable.

What is logical about a supreme being that requires worship and gives no proof as to his/her/it's own existence.

What is logical about sending people to hell because they are good people but don't have blind faith.

What is logical about sending pedophiles/rapists etc to heaven simply because they believe and repent.

I see nothing 'clear' about your assertion. It is your interpretation of the motives of the writers. You could just as easily say every kind act by anyone has a perverse, controlling motive.

Indeed. People are afraid of death, so they blindly follow a belief system that promises to cheat it.

As above, only those who repent and believe are promised forgiveness. Those who refuse are promised eternal wrath.

Completely illogical.

Fanny Cradock

Monosharp, I'll say this again because you apparently did not understand my message last time. Your posts are unacceptable. OK?

You are in the Christianity forum, so describing the bible as laughable and Christians as illogical will likely get you banned. I don't want any more PMs for you. It's simple: play nice or take your unpleasant rants elsewhere.

monosharp

In fairness yes my language was a bit over the top but my points stand regarding logic.

Faith has been described here as logical, my points, although badly phrased, are still mostly accurate.

Let me rephase.

Blind faith is the opposite of logic. The Bible itself contains many inconsistencies and many parts of the Bible seem to contradict other parts.

What is logical about a supreme being that requires worship and gives no proof as to his/her/it's own existence.

What is logical about sending people to suffer eternal pain and suffering because they are good people but don't have faith in a creator that has given no proof of its existance ?

What is logical about sending pedophiles/rapists etc to heaven (a place of ternal happiness etc) simply because they have faith in a creator and repent for all the bad things they have done.

Faith, and I don't mean just christianity, I mean all religions with deities, is illogical by nature.

And please take into account I am not denying a supreme being here, nor am I saying all Christians are illogical.

I am stating that the very specific belief in the literal truth of the bible/Koran/etc is illogical because they themselve are illogical.

jaffa20

So, the Christians on this forum will not tell us if they believe the fictional characters will go to hell or not because it is up to God to decide but they will have no problem telling us that

- you were not truly saved.

- you must repent

- you must believe in God and follow his word to go to heaven.

Basically, you have not problem telling real people that they shall go to hell (as they are not going to heaven). Thus, in turn, deciding what God should only decide himself.

PDN

jaffa20 wrote: »

So, the Christians on this forum will not tell us if they believe the fictional characters will go to hell or not because it is up to God to decide but they will have no problem telling us that

- you were not truly saved.

- you must repent

- you must believe in God and follow his word to go to heaven.

Basically, you have not problem telling real people that they shall go to hell (as they are not going to heaven). Thus, in turn, deciding what God should only decide himself.

This accusation that anyone is deciding what God should only decide Himself is humbug. We don't use the same logic in other areas of life.

For example, we can all easily participare in a discussion describing drunk drivers and say, "If you behave like that then you will lose your license." Nobody says, "Only the guards and the courts can decide that! How arrogant of you to think you can decide!"

If God has told us, in the Bible, what merits hell and how to avoid going there, then it is perfectly OK for Christians to discuss that in a Christianity forum. Only an absolute drama queen should pretend to be offended or to have any problem with that.

dvpower

This thread has generated more responses from Atheists than Christians. The point of the original post wasn't to ask if hell was real (clearly I don't accept that it is), or even who God should send there (I don't think asking Christians to tell God what to do would be productive). My phrasing 'Who Goes? You Decide!' may have been a bit off.

What I wanted to know was the rules are (from the scriptures, church positions, individual interpretations)?

I've met lots of (casual) Christians who when asked, particularly about Mary (the woman who never had a real opportunity to accept of reject Christ), tell me that she shouldn't go to hell, or that they don't think that a just God would send her to hell.

From what Jakkass says, it seems clear that she doesn't qualify for saving.

Jakkass wrote: »

You need to believe in Christ to be truly saved, there is no other way.

It seems to be to be desperately unfair not to give Mary a way in; at least a level playing field. Committed Christians get a fighting chance to be saved. Maybe they were brought up in a Christian environment, where their faith was encouraged. Mary was doomed from the start.

PDN

dvpower wrote: »

From what Jakkass says, it seems clear that she doesn't qualify for saving.

No, you are quoting Jakkass totally out of context. Jakkass' comment was directed to someone who has quite clearly heard and rejected the Gospel message - it carried no implications as to Mary's situation at all.

eddie.fandango

Everyone posting on this thread is going to hell, because they have enough wealth to afford computers and an internet connection. OH NO!!!!111

Although I am an atheist, I have a great interest in religion; "better the devil you know" and all that. From my understanding, all but the priest are going to hell, including Mary, who is a heathen and worships false gods. The priest can atone for his sins through confession, and he is not necessarily obliged to turn himself in for his crimes. One of many reasons I don't buy into this particular superstition.

dvpower

PDN wrote: »

No, you are quoting Jakkass totally out of context. Jakkass' comment was directed to someone who has quite clearly heard and rejected the Gospel message - it carried no implications as to Mary's situation at all.

Not sure if it was totally out of context, but I take the point - I may have been inferring something from an earlier post.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for avoiding hell, the Bible is rather clear. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Romans 10), there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus (Romans 8). Christ is the only bridge between humanity and God so that we may atone for our sins and be made righteous before God in the final days through grace. It is by grace we are saved (Ephesians 2).

This seems to point to bad news for Mary ("Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved") or good news ("there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus") or bad news ("Christ is the only bridge between humanity and God").

I find it difficult to get something definite from this, but I'm not best qualifed to translate scripture; I need to defer to you guys on these questions.

thebaldsoprano

PDN wrote: »

1. Matt. Probably going to hell since it would appear that he has rejected the Gospel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gospel is a book describing Christ's life, which I think even many non religious people will accept was a life lived exceptionally well. It's perfectly possible to 'accept' the Gospel in the sense of looking towards the life of Christ for guidance about how to live without needing to subscribe the interpretation of a given Church about what to think and believe. There have been other such people, Mahatma Ghandi being one of my favourites and consigning the likes of him to Hell because he subscribed to a different set of beliefs strikes me as absurd.

IMO these kind of statements are a catalyst for real evil (ie not just failing to have the right beliefs) to perpetuate, since they open the door for all kinds of not-so-pleasent activities to "save" people from Hell as has happened may times in the past and continues to do.

Ideas such as this should be left in the dark ages where they belong.

PDN

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gospel is a book describing Christ's life, which I think even many non religious people will accept was a life lived exceptionally well.

The word 'Gospel' literally means 'Good news'. It was initially used to refer to the message of Christ's death and resurrection and how one could be saved by responding to Christ. This is still the primary meaning of the word today.

In later years the word 'Gospel' acquired a secondary meaning - referring to an account of the life of Jesus Christ.

There have been other such people, Mahatma Ghandi being one of my favourites and consigning the likes of him to Hell because he subscribed to a different set of beliefs strikes me as absurd.

No, the message of the Gospel is that Jesus, as the Son of God, died for our sins. Gandhi was not another such person since he was not the Son of God and didn't die for our sins.

IMO these kind of statements are a catalyst for real evil (ie not just failing to have the right beliefs) to perpetuate, since they open the door for all kinds of not-so-pleasent activities to "save" people from Hell as has happened may times in the past and continues to do.

Nonsense. You might disagree with my beliefs, but there is nothing in my beliefs to open the door to anything like what you are inferring.

People are free to reject the Gospel and to go to Hell if they choose. Free will.

thebaldsoprano

PDN wrote: »

The word 'Gospel' literally means 'Good news'. It was initially used to refer to the message of Christ's death and resurrection and how one could be saved by responding to Christ. This is still the primary meaning of the word today.

In later years the word 'Gospel' acquired a secondary meaning - referring to an account of the life of Jesus Christ.

Ah, I didn't know that at all, it was the second meaning that I took up.

PDN wrote: »

No, the message of the Gospel is that Jesus, as the Son of God, died for our sins. Gandhi was not another such person since he was not the Son of God and didn't die for our sins.

In the sense that they affected a large number of people's lives for the better they were very similar.

PDN wrote: »

Nonsense. You might disagree with my beliefs, but there is nothing in my beliefs to open the door to anything like what you are inferring.

Well, I'd be very surprised if ideas/beliefs such as discipline or 'tough love' or the like aren't in there somewhere, they're in pretty much everyone's I've ever met in some shape or form. They happen every day in scenarios like letting someone know their work isn't up to scratch, telling a mate they were a little out of order with something they did or said and the like. Short term discomfort for long term benefit. Combine this with the idea that a few lashes/burning at the stake would be preferable to an eternity in Hell and the door is open, I don't think it takes much to see that.

And there's no shortage of evidence to show that plenty of people have walked through it.

PDN

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

And there's no shortage of evidence to show that plenty of people have walked through it.

And there's no shortage of evidence to show that plenty of people with your views (that my beliefs belong in the Dark Ages) are prepared to imprison, torture and kill people like me. However, unlike you I'm prepared to see that as evidence that you get nutcases and evil people among all beliefs, rather than for me to infer that your beliefs are somehow dangerous or sinister.

thebaldsoprano

PDN wrote: »

And there's no shortage of evidence to show that plenty of people with your views (that my beliefs belong in the Dark Ages) are prepared to imprison, torture and kill people like me. However, unlike you I'm prepared to see that as evidence that you get nutcases and evil people among all beliefs, rather than for me to infer that your beliefs are somehow dangerous or sinister.

You're absolutely right and this is exactly what I'm driving at.

An atheist/agnostic might argue that religious people practice superstition/magic that has no place in modern society and imprisoning them and 're-educating' them would be doing them a favour.

Conversely a religious person might argue that such imprisonment and re-education might save someone from Hell.

I'm not arguing that Christianity belongs in the dark ages any more than atheism or my own agnosticism does, but certain parts of all of them do, and in Christianity's case this notion that you need to think and believe the right things to avoid Hell certainly does.

antiskeptic

dvpower wrote: »

So I wondered, what is the criteria for avoiding Hell?

It would appear to distill down to your "believing God" in a specific way that satisfies his criteria for saving you.

It doesn't appear necessary that you believe in God-of-the-Bible in the way you'd usually associate us Christians as believing in him. For instance, the person might have been born before Christ was born and lived in a part of the world with no access to the Bible/knowledge of God in a religious-instruction sense. This doesn't mean they couldn't have been saved though.

Matt: Matt is an Atheist. He is a nice enough guy, has a strong moral/ethical code and tries to live his life according to his principals (but often fails). He was brought up as a catholic but rejected this in his early twenties and hasn’t looked back. While he has great respect for religious people, he fundamentally disagrees with them and can be vocal in his disagreement. He would like to see Christians leave their Christianity behind.

We start with the assumption that the default destination for a person is Hell. That is to say, to Hell they shall go unless they are saved given that they will inevitably be found with sin in their possession. Sin earns death (or Hell)

I can't see anything in Matt's case that is relevant to his salvation/damnation. Hellbound thus - per default.

Mary: A woman from far off Giberobia. Never came in contact with religion (but there was that time when some white guy knocked on her door spouting on about ‘Jesus’). Lives a straightforward life; farming, fishing, candle stick making. When she feels she needs guidance, she consults with her local shaman.

Again, I can't see anything all that relevant to the issue in question. Not enough info to go on. Again, Hell-bound per default

Lucy: A woman, brought up in a leafy Dublin suburb to a liberal, catholic family. She stopped going to mass a long time ago and, like her peers, doesn’t really think about religion, or god, or any of that kind of stuff. She does have a child and has had the child baptised. She leads a normal life. She subscribes to what she calls liberal values; she is pro choice, pro contraception, votes Labour. She disagrees with her church on many issues. She thinks the buddhists have the right idea (she doesn’t know the first thing about Buddhism).

Ditto above. Default = Hell

Joe: A devout Christian. Went into a seminary at a young age and has devoted his life to the service of others. Became a priest and has lived his life in the service of God and his community. Has brought great comfort to many of his parishioners, particularly when they have been bereaved and is greatly respected. At one point in his life he sexually abused a young person in his trust. He has regretted this ever since, but still has feelings that he knows are wrong. He prays for the strength not to offend again, but he has strong residual feelings and fears that he may.

Ditto above. Default is Hell (quite aside from his having sexually abused anyone which is just one of the many sins he'll have racked up in the course of his life.)

robindch

PDN wrote: »

People are free to reject the Gospel and to go to Hell if they choose. Free will.

What a frightfully chilly thought.

CerebralCortex

robindch wrote: »

What a frightfully chilly thought.

Not much of a choice really is it.

dvpower

antiskeptic wrote: »

For instance, the person might have been born before Christ was born and lived in a part of the world with no access to the Bible/knowledge of God in a religious-instruction sense. This doesn't mean they couldn't have been saved though.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I can't see anything in Matt's case that is relevant to his salvation/damnation. Hellbound thus - per default.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Again, Hell-bound per default

antiskeptic wrote: »

Ditto above. Default = Hell

antiskeptic wrote: »

Ditto above. Default is Hell

Seems like since Jesus arrived on the scene almost everyone is going to hell. Great job, Jesus.

JimiTime

dvpower wrote: »

Seems like since Jesus arrived on the scene almost everyone is going to hell. Great job, Jesus.

Not sure if that was just a joke response, but if not, you completely miss the point. The point is, death awaits us all by default, for the wages of sin is death. We can 'choose' to alter this by accepting the ransom paid by Jesus on our behalf. Jesus is the one that conquered death for us. Jesus' coming is the complete opposite effect to what you posted.

antiskeptic

dvpower wrote: »

Seems like since Jesus arrived on the scene almost everyone is going to hell. Great job, Jesus.

What part of "Hell is the default destination" do you not understand? Everyone is Hell-bound. Some will be saved - thanks to what God did.

dvpower

JimiTime wrote: »

Not sure if that was just a joke response, but if not, you completely miss the point. The point is, death awaits us all by default, for the wages of sin is death. We can 'choose' to alter this by accepting the ransom paid by Jesus on our behalf. Jesus is the one that conquered death for us. Jesus' coming is the complete opposite effect to what you posted.

It was partially a joke response, but It seems that I have also completely missed the point.

I'll try and follow it (please tell me if I'm going wrong).
We have sin (even if we haven't personally sinned, we still have original sin). The wages of sin is death (so death is the default outcome; death in this case being no eternal life / hell). By accepting Jesus (who conquered death for us by dying on the cross) we can avoid hell.

If that's broadly it, then doesn't Joe have a shot at avoiding hell? He has sinned for sure, but he has the possibility for forgivness, doesn't he?

The others can't or won't accept Jesus' ransom.

But poor Mary is equivilent to the person who lived and died before Jesus was born; how could one come to the conclusion that she can't avoid hell, but the B.C. person can?

philologos

All people can avoid hell if they seek forgiveness. I assumed that the OP was discussing at the point of judgement. If so you need to write about the rest of these individuals lives or say that they have more to live. It was quite unclear then.

If they still have lives to live then they have every chance of being forgiven.

antiskeptic

@dvpower


You could tack this one onto your OP so as to give us Christians a fair crack of the whip.

Gertrude

Is a bit of an enigma. On the one hand she's as good a person as the next: she's kind and decent and generous and fair minded. She sends money to the starving kids on the telly and is tolerant when it comes to other peoples right to have their own views (even when she has a strong personal objection to those other views eg: abortion). It's just that she knows deep down that for all her goodness (and many consider her a saint - even though she professes no faith) there's something kind of rotten in her heart. She see's herself as like a rotten apple: mostly pristine and white but with a rotten section that is only growing and growing in her. Something that she knows is consuming her and revealing each day how rotten and self-serving her motivations to good so frequently are.

Gertrude is getting to the point were she might well be saved. Hellbound still... but just might be. Blessed are the poor in spirit - for theirs is the kingdom of God.

antiskeptic

dvpower wrote: »

It was partially a joke response, but It seems that I have also completely missed the point.

I'll try and follow it (please tell me if I'm going wrong).
We have sin (even if we haven't personally sinned, we still have original sin). The wages of sin is death (so death is the default outcome; death in this case being no eternal life / hell). By accepting Jesus (who conquered death for us by dying on the cross) we can avoid hell.

If that's broadly it, then doesn't Joe have a shot at avoiding hell? He has sinned for sure, but he has the possibility for forgivness, doesn't he?

The others can't or won't accept Jesus' ransom.

But poor Mary is equivilent to the person who lived and died before Jesus was born; how could one come to the conclusion that she can't avoid hell, but the B.C. person can?

If I may.

As pointed out in my post, there isn't a particular need to believe in Jesus Christ etc in order to be saved. Belief in Jesus Christ as your saviour is (arguably) a state you come to be in once you have been saved.

Old Testament folk were undoubtably saved yet they never heard of Jesus Christ.

monosharp

antiskeptic wrote: »

What part of "Hell is the default destination" do you not understand? Everyone is Hell-bound. Some will be saved - thanks to what God did.

As punishment for ..... ?

So God created everything yes ?
God created hell ? (indirectly or directly) yes ?

So God sent all human beings who have lived for the previous hundreds and thousands of years (4,000 or so for Creationists yeah ?) before Jesus to hell for the most grave sin of being born ? How rude.

Or wasn't there a get-out scenario involving sacrificing goats or something ? Its been a while since I read the Old testament. How did people go to heaven back then ? All I remember about going to heaven was God played a prank on Abraham involving his son and a large knife.

After Jesus's entrance and subsequent exit .. followed by a re-entrance ... and re-exit we are also all going to hell by default ...

Wait a second what exactly changed between pre-Jesus and post-Jesus times ?

Sacrificing goats got us to heaven before Jesus, now we have to believe and spend our lives worshipping him ?

Weren't things easier before he came on the scene ?

uncleoswald

antiskeptic wrote: »

What part of "Hell is the default destination" do you not understand? Everyone is Hell-bound. Some will be saved - thanks to what God did.

But most will be Hell-bound, thanks to what God did, no?

I'm sorry I'm not trying to be antagonistic and had told myself not to get involved with this mine-field but I just can't get my head around this logic.

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

The Bible indicates that those who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ go to hell. So, going on the information you have given I would say:

1. Matt. Probably going to hell since it would appear that he has rejected the Gospel.

2. Mary. I have absolutely no idea. The Bible doesn't tell us.

3. Lucy. Probably going to hell since it would appear that she has rejected the Gospel.

4. Joe. You don't give enough information. Being a devout Catholic is not enough, and there is no indication that he has personally accepted Christ's offer of salvation instead of just trusting in Church ritual and dogma.

So the atheist who lives a good life goes to hell but the child abuser might get off?
Seems fair :rolleyes:

antiskeptic

monosharp wrote: »

As punishment for ..... ?

Sin.

So God created everything yes ?

Directly and indirectly? Yes. He created beings who could choose to go in direction x or direction y. But he's not responsible for the choice. Only the potential to chose.

God created hell ? (indirectly or directly) yes ?

That would depend on your definition of Hell. Given that I'd hold Hell to consist of exposure to Gods wrath then no, he didn't create Hell anymore than he created his being wrathful against sin.

So God sent all human beings who have lived for the previous hundreds and thousands of years (4,000 or so for Creationists yeah ?) before Jesus to hell for the most grave sin of being born ? How rude.

Rude?

And you can't conclude what you conclude from what I said. Indeed, I've mentioned the fact that folk before Christ live have been saved. So says the Bible in anycase.

Or wasn't there a get-out scenario involving sacrificing goats or something ? Its been a while since I read the Old testament. How did people go to heaven back then ? All I remember about going to heaven was God played a prank on Abraham involving his son and a large knife.

Abraham believed God ...is the model of salvation applied to both him and me. Your memory of salvation mechanics is...er... a little wobbly

After Jesus's entrance and subsequent exit .. followed by a re-entrance ... and re-exit we are also all going to hell by default ...

Hell has always been the default. Unless we're saved that's where we're going.

Wait a second what exactly changed between pre-Jesus and post-Jesus times ?

In terms of the default destination? Nothing.

Sacrificing goats got us to heaven before Jesus, now we have to believe and spend our lives worshipping him ?

Believe he existed? Or is your saviour? I don't think so.

The mechanics of salvation appear to distill down to "believing God" (however it is what he is saying is delivered to you).

I think the common thing that God is attempting to convince us of is that we need him and that, whilst we might attempt to escape that conclusion, there really isn't any getting around it. Unless we insist we're fine as we are thanks very much.

Such a convincee might be a woman with a bleeding issue. A person can be reviled by decent society (in Jesus day it was taxpayers and publicans). A person can be a thief hanging on a cross staring eternity in the face. They can be alcoholics, perverts, drug addicts, workaholics, materal- wealth-will-make-me-happy-ests, the bereaved, the sick. There are many ways to the same God - and they all involve us being convinced that we've come to the end of our own personal independant road.

In Abrahams case, it appears that his great need was to have an heir. The dishonour involved in having his line terminate brought him to his knees..

Weren't things easier before he came on the scene ?

I don't think the basic mechanism of salvation has changed so no - not in any significant sense.

antiskeptic

Bduffman wrote: »

So the atheist who lives a good life goes to hell but the child abuser might get off?
Seems fair :rolleyes:

"Good" life. Do you mean according to your measure or Gods measure?