Garda charges question

mivec

Just a quick one does anybody know how long charges last, the reason i ask is my neighbour was caught with drugs a good few years ago was charged then released on bail then skipped the country, myself and my mother were talking about this this evening and go into a bit of an agruement as she said that something to do with the statute of limitations the gardai can only hold those charges for 6 years or something until they disapear but ive never heard of such thing and i claim they never disapear and are valid forever once a person is on the run so to speak, if anybody could shed some light it would be great

dermot_sheehan

6 year statute of limitations is limitation period for a civil debt.

For summary prosecutions (in the district court without a jury), a complaint must be made to the court within 6 months of the offence taking place (there are exceptions to this). There is no such limit for trials on indictment. If the defendant fails to appear and a bench warrant issues it will remain active until its executed (i.e. defendant is arrested by gardai and brought to court)

seanybiker

gabhain7 wrote: »

6 year statute of limitations is limitation period for a civil debt.

For summary prosecutions (in the district court without a jury), a complaint must be made to the court within 6 months of the offence taking place (there are exceptions to this). There is no such limit for trials on indictment. If the defendant fails to appear and a bench warrant issues it will remain active until its executed (i.e. defendant is arrested by gardai and brought to court)

i heard about the 6 months thing alright. another month and a half and I will hopefully be grand and still on the road. Im not to pushed if it goes to court cos I deserve to be put off for drink driving but anyways thats a different story.


One of my neighbours went on the run years ago aswell to Australia. Fecker will never come back. Heard off a few people he is doing the same "job" in Oz and all. Good riddance to him.

TheNog

gabhain7 wrote: »

6 year statute of limitations is limitation period for a civil debt.

For summary prosecutions (in the district court without a jury), a complaint must be made to the court within 6 months of the offence taking place (there are exceptions to this). There is no such limit for trials on indictment. If the defendant fails to appear and a bench warrant issues it will remain active until its executed (i.e. defendant is arrested by gardai and brought to court)

Just to add that bench warrants have a life existance of 99 years

Hoo-Haa

seanybiker wrote: »

i heard about the 6 months thing alright. another month and a half and I will hopefully be grand and still on the road. Im not to pushed if it goes to court cos I deserve to be put off for drink driving but anyways thats a different story.

Charge has to be submitted to the dpp within 6 mths, they have 6mths after that to summons you to court I think.

They summonsed me to court 11mths after my arrest.

mivec

Hoo-Haa wrote: »

Charge has to be submitted to the dpp within 6 mths, they have 6mths after that to summons you to court I think.

They summonsed me to court 11mths after my arrest.

cheers for the replies guys, out of interest what act is that stated in about the dpp taking 6 months does anybody know as im expecting a fine/points for speeding about 13 months ago (my own fault i now) but have heard nothing yet

Hoo-Haa

mivec wrote: »

cheers for the replies guys, out of interest what act is that stated in about the dpp taking 6 months does anybody know as im expecting a fine/points for speeding about 13 months ago (my own fault i now) but have heard nothing yet

Mine was drugs but as far as I know its the same for all charges. If you havent heard nwot by now you're prob fine.

GerardKeating

gabhain7 wrote: »

6 year statute of limitations is limitation period for a civil debt.

I thought the clock stopped if one fled the juristrictation of the court for the period one was away?

oceallachain

a bench warrant remains active for an infinite period, not 99 years.

in relation to the rest criminal matters are either summary in their nature or indictable (serious).

summary matters (e.g. drink driving) must be instituted within 6 months. this means that the prosecutor (normally gardai) must notify the local district court office, not the defendant, within 6 months. this applies to most summary offences. however hybrid offences (arrestable offences which are too minor to be considered "indictable/circuit court" and are hence prosecuted "summarily/district court"), e.g. theft, criminal damage, can be instituted within 12 months.

indictable matters exist until the defendant dies, the case is struck out, the charge is withdrawn or the jury return a verdict.

bogwarrior33

oceallachain wrote: »

a bench warrant remains active for an infinite period, not 99 years.

in relation to the rest criminal matters are either summary in their nature or indictable (serious).

summary matters (e.g. drink driving) must be instituted within 6 months. this means that the prosecutor (normally gardai) must notify the local district court office, not the defendant, within 6 months. this applies to most summary offences. however hybrid offences (arrestable offences which are too minor to be considered "indictable/circuit court" and are hence prosecuted "summarily/district court"), e.g. theft, criminal damage, can be instituted within 12 months.

indictable matters exist until the defendant dies, the case is struck out, the charge is withdrawn or the jury return a verdict.

So if you have been arrested but not charged for an indictable offense, the prospect of being charged and tried in relation to that offense hangs over you for the rest of you life? There must be Constitutional limitations to such matters?

Our man in Havana

No there is not.

bogwarrior33

Bond-007 wrote: »

No there is not.

How many criminal prosecutions do not take place because too much time has elapsed? Statutory provisions for such matters may be open ended, but in practice even the most serious criminal charges may not be pursued due to the passage of time.

McCrack

It's a complicated area and there's a lot of jurisprudence on delay (particularly regarding alledged sexual offences) and what constitutes it.

Each case is assessed on its merits taking into consideration a range of factors. I've seen indictable crimes prosecuted 30-40 years after occuring for example.

Hooch

McCrack wrote: »

It's a complicated area and there's a lot of jurisprudence on delay (particularly regarding alledged sexual offences) and what constitutes it.

Each case is assessed on its merits taking into consideration a range of factors. I've seen indictable crimes prosecuted 30-40 years after occuring for example.

+1

Justice delayed is justice denied......but in some cases it is not the fault of the injuried party or the investigating authorities......ie as McCrack said, sexual offences years old.

bogwarrior33

McCrack wrote: »

It's a complicated area and there's a lot of jurisprudence on delay (particularly regarding alledged sexual offences) and what constitutes it.

Each case is assessed on its merits taking into consideration a range of factors. I've seen indictable crimes prosecuted 30-40 years after occuring for example.

What about non violent offences? A family member was arrested for cannabis cultivation and admitted to selling some to their close friends. This offense obviously ranges in seriousness and theirs was at the lower end of the scale, they were released without charge after cooperating fully and the gardai have not been in touch in over a year, but they are trying to move on with their lives and are heading to university in september.

Hooch

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

What about non violent offences? A family member was arrested for cannabis cultivation and admitted to selling some to their close friends. This offense obviously ranges in seriousness and theirs was at the lower end of the scale, they were released without charge after cooperating fully and the gardai have not been in touch in over a year, but they are trying to move on with their lives and are heading to university in september.

They, in theory of course, can expect a summons within the next few months. Before christmas im sure.

bogwarrior33

nice guy always wrote: »

They, in theory of course, can expect a summons within the next few months. Before christmas im sure.

But in theory also, they could not receive a summons for another few years?

Hooch

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

But in theory also, they could not receive a summons for another few years?

No, justice delayed is justice denied in this case. There is no reason why this case shouldnt go ahead within two years of the offence.....and thats a push!!

bogwarrior33

nice guy always wrote: »

No, justice delayed is justice denied in this case. There is no reason why this case shouldnt go ahead within two years of the offence.....and thats a push!!

So is 2 years the general limit observed through legal precedent? Or are you just speaking generally? Thank you

Hooch

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

So is 2 years the general limit observed through legal precedent? Or are you just speaking generally? Thank you

Generally to be honest. It depends on the judge. Im sure McCrack or Tom would know some case law for it.

Two years would be the most it would take to do file, get directions, issue summons, track down offender and serve summons.

bogwarrior33

nice guy always wrote: »

Generally to be honest. It depends on the judge. Im sure McCrack or Tom would know some case law for it.

Two years would be the most it would take to do file, get directions, issue summons, track down offender and serve summons.

Thank you Nice Guy. The information is appreciated.

McCrack

It sounds District Court so the rules for applying for a summons to this court is within 6 months (most offences) from the date of the alleged offence.
The summons then must be served within 12 months so theoretically a summons can arive up to 18 months after.

bogwarrior33

McCrack wrote: »

It sounds District Court so the rules for applying for a summons to this court is within 6 months (most offences) from the date of the alleged offence.
The summons then must be served within 12 months so theoretically a summons can arive up to 18 months after.

As far as I know the gardai were putting an estimate of 20,000 on the plants (it would have been a tenth of that value, they weighed everything including roots wet) when they interviewed them, so they think it will be sent directly to the circuit court before it will be heard fully. They will be employing an expert in their defense to give an accurate estimate on the value of the plants, which would bring them below the threshold, but that will not take place until they have been charged.

Hooch

McCrack wrote: »

It sounds District Court so the rules for applying for a summons to this court is within 6 months (most offences) from the date of the alleged offence.
The summons then must be served within 12 months so theoretically a summons can arive up to 18 months after.

Statute of limitations for MDA is now 12 months.

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

As far as I know the gardai were putting an estimate of 20,000 on the plants (it would have been a tenth of that value, they weighed everything including roots wet) when they interviewed them, so they think it will be sent directly to the circuit court before it will be heard fully. They will be employing an expert in their defense to give an accurate estimate on the value of the plants, which would bring them below the threshold, but that will not take place until they have been charged.

That value is Section 15 MDA and because of the value the district court would refuse juristiction and send forward for trial.

bogwarrior33

nice guy always wrote: »

Statute of limitations for MDA is now 12 months.



That value is Section 15 MDA and because of the value the district court would refuse juristiction and send forward for trial.

So is the statute of limitations for section 15 longer? Is that a total of 12 months? could you please pass on source. Thank you.

Hooch

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

So is the statute of limitations for section 15 longer? Is that a total of 12 months? could you please pass on source. Thank you.

Only Section 3 MDA has a 12 months statute of limitations. Cant find the source im afraid.

bogwarrior33

nice guy always wrote: »

Only Section 3 MDA has a 12 months statute of limitations. Cant find the source im afraid.

Thank you.

blunski85

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

6 year statute of limitations is limitation period for a civil debt.

For summary prosecutions (in the district court without a jury), a complaint must be made to the court within 6 months of the offence taking place (there are exceptions to this). There is no such limit for trials on indictment. If the defendant fails to appear and a bench warrant issues it will remain active until its executed (i.e. defendant is arrested by gardai and brought to court)

does anyone know how long it would take if the person handed himself in for a growhouse and was not arrested or charged how long it would take before there could be no action taken?

bogwarrior33

blunski85 wrote: »

does anyone know how long it would take if the person handed himself in for a growhouse and was not arrested or charged how long it would take before there could be no action taken?

Well if they were charging them with possession with intent to supply they can take as long as they like, but anything past a few years and it is difficult to justify the delay. Also, there may also be issues around the preservation of evidence, which the Gardai are constitutionally mandated to do. After a while there may not be any evidence left.

The fact that someone hands themselves in and cooperates is more relevant to mitigation at sentencing. If you are seen to cooperate the courts will generally look far more favourably on how long, if at all, they will impose a custodial sentence.

The value is of huge significance of course. If your growhouse only had ten plants, you may never hear from them, though this is highly unlikely.

The Gardaí will rarely allow a soft conviction to escape them

bogwarrior33

blunski85 wrote: »

does anyone know how long it would take if the person handed himself in for a growhouse and was not arrested or charged how long it would take before there could be no action taken?

Is it your own case? I am well acquainted with someone who avoided a custodial sentence even though they were charged under Section 15A of the Misuse of Drugs Act, the most serious of all the Drugs Offences. There is always a way of trying to avoid the full severity of the criminal justice system.

blunski85

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

Is it your own case? I am well acquainted with someone who avoided a custodial sentence even though they were charged under Section 15A of the Misuse of Drugs Act, the most serious of all the Drugs Offences. There is always a way of trying to avoid the full severity of the criminal justice system.

no its not my own case but i would be interested to hear the details of your friends case and what he done to reduce his sentence.

bogwarrior33

blunski85 wrote: »

no its not my own case but i would be interested to hear the details of your friends case and what he done to reduce his sentence.

He was lucky in that he had no previous convictions.
He applied for college immediately and began a course the September after he was first arrested.
The summons took about 6 months to come through, and it took 16 months from the first District Court date to the sentencing at the Circuit Court. During which time he worked his ass off in College, building up a good relationship with the staff, who later went on to give him glowing character references.
He immediately entered drug addiction treatment and started doing regular urine samples to show he was clean.
He made sure he avoided any possibility of getting into any more trouble.
The value began at 120k and through threats of going to trial and bringing in experts, the Guards dropped the value to around 20k (It was probably only around 12-13k) and although it ended in a Section 15A charge, he managed to get off with a 5 year suspended sentence.

Now a huge part of it was the judge on the day, but the more of an effort you make, the more the Court will look sympathetically on you. Tell him to get on with his life and look like he is genuinely trying to mend his ways.

blunski85

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

He was lucky in that he had no previous convictions.
He applied for college immediately and began a course the September after he was first arrested.
The summons took about 6 months to come through, and it took 16 months from the first District Court date to the sentencing at the Circuit Court. During which time he worked his ass off in College, building up a good relationship with the staff, who later went on to give him glowing character references.
He immediately entered drug addiction treatment and started doing regular urine samples to show he was clean.
He made sure he avoided any possibility of getting into any more trouble.
The value began at 120k and through threats of going to trial and bringing in experts, the Guards dropped the value to around 20k (It was probably only around 12-13k) and although it ended in a Section 15A charge, he managed to get off with a 5 year suspended sentence.

Now a huge part of it was the judge on the day, but the more of an effort you make, the more the Court will look sympathetically on you. Tell him to get on with his life and look like he is genuinely trying to mend his ways.

thanks do you know how many plants he got caught with that they put it down at 120k.was it a sophisticated grow,could it turnover every few weeks?i know they put it down as e400 a plant no matter what size they are.

bogwarrior33

blunski85 wrote: »

thanks do you know how many plants he got caught with that they put it down at 120k.was it a sophisticated grow,could it turnover every few weeks?i know they put it down as e400 a plant no matter what size they are.

There were over about 70 mature and another 120 cuttings.

It was a hydroponic setup with 8 lights.

He was not turning over; each grow was 6 months under lights. He was growing rare sativas for himself and friends. He would only do one long crop a year.

They refused to budge on the 400 a plant, and though I have serious doubts about the Constitutionality of the courts accepting unquestionably such a valuation (I suspect it could definitely be challenged in the High Court) from the Gardai, who give absolutely no justification for the valuation, he was able to get the main detective to agree on the stand to say half the cuttings or more would never have matured.

Our man in Havana

It has been said many times before that Garda drug valuations are pie in the sky. They must buy from the most expensive dealers in the world at what they value cannabis and E at.

Have these valuations ever been challenged in the courts?

bogwarrior33

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It has been said many times before that Garda drug valuations are pie in the sky. They must buy from the most expensive dealers in the world at what they value cannabis and E at.

Have these valuations ever been challenged in the courts?

To my knowledge they have not made it into the reported cases of the superior courts (High and Supreme Courts) but there have been a few challenges to convictions where they defendant claimed they didn't know the value.

I certainly feel that there is some scope for challenging the procedure the courts use in admitting unrebuttable evidence though. You have a constitutional right to challenge any evidence brought against you, but the courts in the District and Circuit courts at least seem to take the Gardaí's word for it, without any scientific or documentary evidence to support it.

breanach

If your worried you can ring the county court house and find out if anything is pending!

I did it before and the clerk just put in my name a date of birth and told me eveything i needed to know i.e no summons pending:)


B

detective

Wesley Melodic Racket wrote: »

Yep that aul fella with coffee jar of Ez.

Gards valued them at €10 each with brought the charge up to the S15. He got ppl to come in and say they only paid a euro a pop. I can't remember the exact case but it was pretty hot topic at the time.

The gards and customs also include packaging as part of the weight which is ridiculous, as packaging can be huge in some cases. Don't see how a lump of plastic should be included as part of your charge.

This was DPP V Heaphy at Cork circuit court. If the state can prove that one E was ever sold for €10 then that's potential street value.

The Gardai do not value plastic. And Its weighed by forensic civilians.

detective

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

To my knowledge they have not made it into the reported cases of the superior courts (High and Supreme Courts) but there have been a few challenges to convictions where they defendant claimed they didn't know the value.

I certainly feel that there is some scope for challenging the procedure the courts use in admitting unrebuttable evidence though. You have a constitutional right to challenge any evidence brought against you, but the courts in the District and Circuit courts at least seem to take the Gardaí's word for it, without any scientific or documentary evidence to support it.

DPP V Ronan Power is a supreme court case that states that the Gardai do not have to prove that the defendant knew the value.

detective

Hooch wrote: »

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

So is the statute of limitations for section 15 longer? Is that a total of 12 months? could you please pass on source. Thank you.

Only Section 3 MDA has a 12 months statute of limitations. Cant find the source im afraid.

The source is the MDA 1984. Section 3 MDA is an indictable offence so the 6 months petty sessions rule doesn't apply. However, neither does the 12 months. It's indictable so there's no time limit afaik but the basic rules of fairness and justice delayed is denied of course apply.

looseshoe

i was caught a few months back with half a bag of weed, its been over 6 months and i haven't heard anything yet. my friend was with me who was caught before and he has had his summons delivered an all. any advice? i'm a bit stressed over it.

Our man in Havana

How much is there in half a bag?

ResearchWill

Our man in Havana wrote: »

How much is there in half a bag?

Suppose that depends is it a coin bag or a black bin bag.

ResearchWill

Just a note on the Petty Sessions Ireland Act 1851 which sets the 6 month time limit to request a summons, (it sets no time to serve it), a lot of new legislation excludes that act and applies a 2 year limit.

Example the Household Charge Act

15.— (1) Notwithstanding section 10(4) of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851, summary proceedings for an offence under this Act may be instituted not later than 2 years from the date on which the relevant local authority forms the opinion that there exists sufficient evidence to justify the institution of proceedings for the offence concerned, but in no case shall such proceedings be instituted after 6 years from the date of the alleged commission of the offence.

looseshoe

no jesus no not a bin bag, half an 8th, with a worth of about 25 euro. now the garda man i was dealing with in all fairness was civil enough, he rang me a week or so later and ask me for info, i told him that a friend had just taking his own life and was in a pretty bad state over that. which wasn't made up or anything i told him where he could read about it. he said he'd call back in a few weeks but never did. so i heard nothing from that, and then just last week there my friend got the summons. good bit stressed over the whole thing

usernamegoes

I recently learned that there are different types of cannabis plants i.e. male and female. Only one type flower and produce the stuff you smoke. Whatismore, you can't tell until the plants are quite mature. Do the police do a DNA or other forensic test to determine gender of the plants in order to price them?

I would imagine that a plant that does not produce flower has no or negligible value.

Any case law on this?

Our man in Havana

A plant is a plant as far as a Templemore graduate is concerned.

usernamegoes

Our man in Havana wrote: »

A plant is a plant as far as a Templemore graduate is concerned.

Surely, that's a case waiting to happen! A person could not face a "mandatory" i.e. potential 10 years in jail based on the state's failure to prove the value was over approx 13.

I may be wrong here, but if a grow house is raided, all the immature plants may be worthless inasmuch as they produce no flowers.

Reloc8

looseshoe wrote: »

i was caught a few months back with half a bag of weed, its been over 6 months and i haven't heard anything yet. my friend was with me who was caught before and he has had his summons delivered an all. any advice? i'm a bit stressed over it.

The potential charges are indictable so there is no time limit within which a summons must be applied for/charges brought.

In summary, no news is good news as far as you're concerned. If you receive a summons or are further approached by gardai regarding the incident you should take legal advice from a solicitor.

looseshoe wrote: »

no jesus no not a bin bag, half an 8th, with a worth of about 25 euro. now the garda man i was dealing with in all fairness was civil enough, he rang me a week or so later and ask me for info, i told him that a friend had just taking his own life and was in a pretty bad state over that. which wasn't made up or anything i told him where he could read about it. he said he'd call back in a few weeks but never did. so i heard nothing from that, and then just last week there my friend got the summons. good bit stressed over the whole thing

Look, you might well be in the clear. Especially if you're still at the same address as when the incident occurred. If not, then you're probably just waiting for the summons to catch up with you. Ultimately, based on what you say in terms of value and what not, in the event that you are summonsed and presuming no previous convictions you would not expect this to be a life changing event in terms of outcome (i.e. it would not be normal to convict you for this, if you have no previous convictions) or if convicted it would not be normal for a circuit judge on appeal to uphold the conviction (this assumes value is in deed 25 quid, that you have no previous convictions, and that your story about your mate taking his own life - my sympathy in that regard - is not bollox).

To a solicitor with you, if you get a summons. You should be fine either way.

looseshoe

cheers everyone for your replies everyone really appreciate it, no i have no convictions at all, plus i'm from the north originally so i have not been down here long. but my friend story wasn't bogus at all, jesus it left me devastated and when i said it to the guard he was abit throwing back, he rang me before i was to head to his funeral, he died two days after i was caught in spain, worst weekend of my life. i'm still in the same house, just very weary to who i answer the door to now. but lads i really appreciate ye getting back to me. thanks everyone. fingers crossed nothing comes of it.

Piper101

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

As far as I know the gardai were putting an estimate of 20,000 on the plants (it would have been a tenth of that value, they weighed everything including roots wet) when they interviewed them, so they think it will be sent directly to the circuit court before it will be heard fully. They will be employing an expert in their defense to give an accurate estimate on the value of the plants, which would bring them below the threshold, but that will not take place until they have been charged.

AFAIK the plants each have a specific value (specified under european guidelines) its not their weight like it is with finished drugs as plants have potential to keep yielding.