Buy Irish or online?

cmyk

Hey maybe people can answer me a quick one here, found a bike for my girlfriend after a few weeks searching (and help in here).

However in the current climate I would like to purchase Irish but the same bike here (389e) can be delivered to my door for 295e from a uk shop, which is a huge saving. I realise I would prob have to pay customs/duty on the uk order though? Any advise?

Chips Lovell

cmyk wrote: »

I realise I would prob have to pay customs/duty on the uk order though? Any advise?

You don't have to pay customs or duty on anything purchased within the EU.

penexpers

cmyk wrote: »

Hey maybe people can answer me a quick one here, found a bike for my girlfriend after a few weeks searching (and help in here).

However in the current climate I would like to purchase Irish but the same bike here (389e) can be delivered to my door for 295e from a uk shop, which is a huge saving. I realise I would prob have to pay customs/duty on the uk order though? Any advise?

Have you asked in the shop about the bike for 389? Chances are if you ask them, they might be able to do you a deal.

cmyk

Ah ok, thanks el tonto, I wasn't sure about that, I though there was some charge though?

And penexpers I was going to do that anyhow to be fair to them, but I didn't get the impression they would move too much on the price the other day, though I didn't push the point and simply said we'd another few to look at.

Chips Lovell

cmyk wrote: »

I though there was some charge though?

Only delivery.

jollylee

cmyk wrote: »

.......... I didn't push the point and simply said we'd another few to look at.

Just tell the shop owner the truth and let them know exactly how much your buying it for online. They'll never be able to match the price but if they could get within €30~€40 it'd be worth buying local even just for the after sales service!

Lumen

I caught a look at some trade prices in a bike shop recently.

Despite all the (quite reasonable) whining about VAT rates, gross margins still seem quite healthy.

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

I caught a look at some trade prices in a bike shop recently.

Despite all the (quite reasonable) whining about VAT rates, gross margins still seem quite healthy.

Depends on the brand.

Trek are 30% across the board from low end to top end.
All the rest, the higher the model the less the margin.

Beruthiel

cmyk wrote: »

However in the current climate I would like to purchase Irish but the same bike here (389e) can be delivered to my door for 295e from a uk shop

Print out the page with the price on it.
Go to the bike shop, show him the print out and tell him you would rather by in his shop, but only at the same price.

cmyk

Beruthiel wrote: »

Print out the page with the price on it.
Go to the bike shop, show him the print out and tell him you would rather by in his shop, but only at the same price.

Good idea, i'll give that a shot, sure nothing to lose! I appreciate the fact that I'll get the service etc. that I wouldn't get on the internet so I don't mind paying a bit over the internet prices for that, as I'm sure others would too?

pburns

cmyk wrote: »

Good idea, i'll give that a shot, sure nothing to lose! I appreciate the fact that I'll get the service etc. that I wouldn't get on the internet so I don't mind paying a bit over the internet prices for that, as I'm sure others would too?

Good call.

I'd be dubious about buying a bike online unless there was a huge saving. Back-up can be important and delivery on something as big as a bike is gonna surely be an expense? Plus, if you have a problem you can't easily wrap it up and send it back for repair.

Some people will go to huge lengths to save a few bob. I'd be prepared to pay a bit more for convenience, simplicity and service.

cmyk

pburns wrote: »

I'd be dubious about buying a bike online unless there was a huge saving. Back-up can be important and delivery on something as big as a bike is gonna surely be an expense?

Well there is still a significant saving to be made...
Irish Price: 389e (in two Dublin bike shops, one of which is quite a reputable one)
Online Price: 256e plus 32e delivery
http://www.holcroscycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?currency=EUR&products_id=2170%7B2%7D25

There is clearly quite a markup on the price of the bike if the online price is 133e cheaper and presumably still making a profit on this? I might add also that the above link is clearly a bike shop and not just an online warehouse with less overheads as would be in a lbs here, so in those terms it's like for like.

If I'm missing anything here let me know as I would genuinely like to know if we are still living in rip off Ireland, or is it a case of higher overheads, rent, VAT% etc.

lukester

pburns wrote: »

I'd be dubious about buying a bike online unless there was a huge saving.

Tons of people here, myself included, have bought several bikes online with no problem. The savings are significant, even with delivery (free with some retailers).
As regards backup, servicing, etc, it's no harm learning to do it yourself. Otherwise, your LBS will sort you out, which you'd need them to anyway apart from a 'free' first service.

boniver

Lumen wrote: »

I caught a look at some trade prices in a bike shop recently.

Despite all the (quite reasonable) whining about VAT rates, gross margins still seem quite healthy.

Sorry now I have to laugh at this. Gross margins still seem quite healthy - who are you kidding! As another poster pointed out, trek recently implemented a unilateral margin reduction for all of their Irish retailers to 30% MARK UP - not margin. Work it out and you'll see how little is being made - and this is on low end product, where we (I work in a bike shop) are still expected to discount further. Margins on high end product is tiny. Add in the high minimum wage in this country, high rates, high everything and I can guarantee you that, with the exception of a couple of big big outfits in Dublin, most bike shops, including the one I work in, barely make enough to merit staying open.

The price list you copped a peek at will have shown trade prices EXCLUDING Irish vat at 21.5%, which has to be paid on top of the trade price.

In the case of the specific Dawes that this poster is looking for, I'm going to guess and say Dawes UK put the model on some kind of special offer and the Irish distributor didn't. The Gents version was on clearance from the Irish distributor for a while but not the womens. Without that assistance it would be impossible for an Irish shop to match this price as to be honest, it's probabaly very close to the cost price in Ireland.

Sorry now, I could rant about this all day!

cmyk

boniver wrote: »

As another poster pointed out, trek recently implemented a unilateral margin reduction for all of their Irish retailers to 30% MARK UP - not margin. Work it out and you'll see how little is being made - and this is on low end product, where we (I work in a bike shop) are still expected to discount further. Margins on high end product is tiny.

Thanks for that Boniver, I do really want to buy Irish. (Also being in an industry that is being diminished by overseas competition). Can you give me a quick explanation of what you mean by 30% mark up - not margin. I really don't know the difference?

Jawgap

pburns wrote: »

Good call.

I'd be dubious about buying a bike online unless there was a huge saving. Back-up can be important and delivery on something as big as a bike is gonna surely be an expense? Plus, if you have a problem you can't easily wrap it up and send it back for repair.

Some people will go to huge lengths to save a few bob. I'd be prepared to pay a bit more for convenience, simplicity and service.

I just got two kids mountain bikes from Chain Reaction - delivery was free. Buying local would've been the preferred option but none of the LBSs were able to come close to the online prices.

Jawgap

boniver wrote: »

Sorry now I have to laugh at this. Gross margins still seem quite healthy - who are you kidding! As another poster pointed out, trek recently implemented a unilateral margin reduction for all of their Irish retailers to 30% MARK UP - not margin. Work it out and you'll see how little is being made - and this is on low end product, where we (I work in a bike shop) are still expected to discount further. Margins on high end product is tiny. Add in the high minimum wage in this country, high rates, high everything and I can guarantee you that, with the exception of a couple of big big outfits in Dublin, most bike shops, including the one I work in, barely make enough to merit staying open.

The price list you copped a peek at will have shown trade prices EXCLUDING Irish vat at 21.5%, which has to be paid on top of the trade price.

In the case of the specific Dawes that this poster is looking for, I'm going to guess and say Dawes UK put the model on some kind of special offer and the Irish distributor didn't. The Gents version was on clearance from the Irish distributor for a while but not the womens. Without that assistance it would be impossible for an Irish shop to match this price as to be honest, it's probabaly very close to the cost price in Ireland.

Sorry now, I could rant about this all day!

Why don't shops here deal with the UK distributor and source their stock from there?

Or do what the OP is being advised and get the details of the UK trade offers and take them to the Irish distributor?

blanco

I would definitely buy online if there was a saving of €133.

The servicing you can do yourself in a few weeks. Just ask here what's involved. Or, look at youtube.
If you don't want to do it yourself, just bring it to your local bike shop. It won't be that much to tighten up the right parts.

Lumen

boniver wrote: »

Sorry now I have to laugh at this. Gross margins still seem quite healthy - who are you kidding! As another poster pointed out, trek recently implemented a unilateral margin reduction for all of their Irish retailers to 30% MARK UP - not margin. Work it out and you'll see how little is being made - and this is on low end product, where we (I work in a bike shop) are still expected to discount further. Margins on high end product is tiny. Add in the high minimum wage in this country, high rates, high everything and I can guarantee you that, with the exception of a couple of big big outfits in Dublin, most bike shops, including the one I work in, barely make enough to merit staying open.

The price list you copped a peek at will have shown trade prices EXCLUDING Irish vat at 21.5%, which has to be paid on top of the trade price.

The numbers I saw were under 50% of the retail, so <£100 becomes €200. Taking off VAT, it leaves over €50 margin on a €200 ticket price, which I would call "healthy".

Irish bike shops have responded incredibly poorly to competition from the internet, the effects of which have been obvious for well over a decade. Mostly it seems a question of fingers in the ears and "la la la".

I often happily pay a little more to buy stuff from a proper bike shop, but am not surprised that others won't.

penexpers

Jawgap wrote: »

Why don't shops here deal with the UK distributor and source their stock from there?

Or do what the OP is being advised and get the details of the UK trade offers and take them to the Irish distributor?

A lot of manufacturers won't allow Irish shops to buy from UK distributors. An example of this is Shimano, it's probably the same for Dawes.

I think it's the distributors that are screwing the public here, not the bike shops.

sexpot

Out of interest cmyk, where did you see the Dawes? Looking to get my gf something similar.

cmyk

It's in Mike's Bikes in Dun Laoghaire and Joe Daly in Dundrum. There's a few places online, but posted the link further up!

Jawgap

penexpers wrote: »

A lot of manufacturers won't allow Irish shops to buy from UK distributors. An example of this is Shimano, it's probably the same for Dawes.

I think it's the distributors that are screwing the public here, not the bike shops.

I assume this is something both the Competition Authority and the European Commission would be interested in, so no doubt the bike shops and their representative body have raised the issue with them? Or perhaps they're quite happy with the margins being "forced" on them!

blanco

Probably a bit off topic....

I have a Dawes and was told the parts have to be ordered in from France..? Told the guy in the bike shop to see if a Shimano fits, and lo and behold, it does!
As parts wore out, I just replace them with cheap as chips Shimano. The bike is used every day for commuting and shopping at the weekends - not the TDF, so the quality of the parts is fine.

Morgan

blanco wrote: »

I have a Dawes and was told the parts have to be ordered in from France..? Told the guy in the bike shop to see if a Shimano fits, and lo and behold, it does!

That's bizarre. France? What's he playing at?

penexpers

Jawgap wrote: »

I assume this is something both the Competition Authority and the European Commission would be interested in, so no doubt the bike shops and their representative body have raised the issue with them? Or perhaps they're quite happy with the margins being "forced" on them!

Well I know my LBS would like nothing better than to be able to order Shimano parts from the UK distro, but his dealer agreement forbids him. I'm not sure of the legalities of this. Maybe manufacturers are allowed to specify authorised distributors for each country?

FWIW, my LBS pays more wholesale than what CRC charge retail for a lot of Shimano parts, and I've seen the order documents.

blanco

I haven't a clue. Really can't see why a U.K company would put french parts on their bikes. But, that's Penny Farthing for you.
In fairness though, he said he'd put a special order in with express delivery for only a bit more money..:rolleyes:

boniver

penexpers wrote: »

Well I know my LBS would like nothing better than to be able to order Shimano parts from the UK distro, but his dealer agreement forbids him. I'm not sure of the legalities of this. Maybe manufacturers are allowed to specify authorised distributors for each country?

FWIW, my LBS pays more wholesale than what CRC charge retail for a lot of Shimano parts, and I've seen the order documents.

As it happens, with Shimano, we can buy from the Irish or UK distributor but that may be because we had an account with the UK distributor before there even was an official Irish agent for Shimano. Because of currency issues over the years, it was cheaper to buy from Ireland but now we're back buying from Madison (Shimano UK). Don't forget though that Irish VAT of 21.5% still has to be added compared to 15% in the UK. Also, if you can buy huge quantities, the price gets lower but not many small Irish bike shops would have the market to be able to sustain large volume purchases of components.

It is quite true to say that CRC can sell stuff cheaper than most people in the trade can BUY it for. I know from a trade only website that many British shops buy one-off parts from CRC because it's actually cheaper than buying direct from Shimano.

boniver

Lumen wrote: »

The numbers I saw were under 50% of the retail, so <£100 becomes €200. Taking off VAT, it leaves over €50 margin on a €200 ticket price, which I would call "healthy".

Irish bike shops have responded incredibly poorly to competition from the internet, the effects of which have been obvious for well over a decade. Mostly it seems a question of fingers in the ears and "la la la".

I often happily pay a little more to buy stuff from a proper bike shop, but am not surprised that others won't.

I don't know what brand that was but I can tell you now that not one of the brands that we sell in the shop I work in operates a double up for rrp. Taking your example, a 100.00 trade price on our list equates to a selling price of 170.00 including Vat, which has to be paid to the government once the item is sold.

To be honest, I don't really want to get into giving out effectively trade information. I can only state as a matter of fact that it is a red herring to think that Irish bikes shops are ripping off people with high profits, it simply isn't true.

In our case, we will do our best to get as close as we can to any price that we are quoted but sometimes it just is not possible because we are not operating on a level playing field with our nearest neighbours - they have lower vat rates and a much larger population that can support much bigger distributors who can buy much bigger quantities and pass on the savings to their retail shop customers. Why not deal with the UK distributor, you might ask. Well, a lot of them don't want to deal with Irish shops. Or the volume they demand to even open an account is not viable for most of us. My boss had this discussion with a UK distributor recently for a brand of bike we wanted to stock specifically to try to offer something we could compete on. They wanted an initial order of 20 bikes and then minimum batches of 6 after that. So what to do when a customer wants a special order or a size we don't have? Not viable. Oh, and on top of all this, no credit to Irish accounts, Pro Forma for the forseeable future.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just telling it like it is.

rob1891

boniver wrote: »

As it happens, with Shimano, we can buy from the Irish or UK distributor but that may be because we had an account with the UK distributor before there even was an official Irish agent for Shimano. Because of currency issues over the years, it was cheaper to buy from Ireland but now we're back buying from Madison (Shimano UK). Don't forget though that Irish VAT of 21.5% still has to be added compared to 15% in the UK. Also, if you can buy huge quantities, the price gets lower but not many small Irish bike shops would have the market to be able to sustain large volume purchases of components.

It is quite true to say that CRC can sell stuff cheaper than most people in the trade can BUY it for. I know from a trade only website that many British shops buy one-off parts from CRC because it's actually cheaper than buying direct from Shimano.

jaysus, CRC is bloody expensive for shimano now. You should shops should buy from bike-components.de or starbike.com !!!

Traumadoc

I am about to buy a bike, I have seen it online uk for 1700, I asked the local shop could they come within 100 euro as I would prefer to buy locally but the lowest they could go was 2100.

Pity as I would prefer to buy locally but 400 euros is too much for me to stomach.

Lumen

boniver wrote: »

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just telling it like it is.

In most other retail sectors, the situation you describe would have resulted in consolidation into chains. This is why most people buy food from supermarkets rather than local grocers.

For some reason it han't happened in the bike shop sector. Why?

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

In most other retail sectors, the situation you describe would have resulted in consolidation into chains. This is why most people buy food from supermarkets rather than local grocers.

For some reason it han't happened in the bike shop sector. Why?

True for large scale food and clothing - but this has also lead o the loss of character in many cities in the western worl IMO. Allied to this chains cannot have the level of customer service that a small shop can.
I would not like to live in a society where chains were any more prevalent than they already are.
There must be a place for small bike stores and large bike chains (wiggle etc). But the small shop cannot compete on price, ergo they must compete on something else.

For example, I sometimes in Sheridans/Fallon & Byrne, but similar cheese in both stores is significantly cheaper in Superquinn/Tesco etc. (Similar, not the same).

D!armu!d

ROK ON wrote: »

I would not like to live in a society where chains were any more prevalent than they already are.

Dead right. I see some of the Irish shops are matching UK prices on Specialized:
http://www.staggcycles.com/
http://www.worldwidecycles.com/
Would prefer to spend my money in Ireland, so the sooner all shops catch up the better, or they'll miss out on a fortune on the cycletowork scheme.
And as for the clothes & accessories prices....

boniver

D!armu!d wrote: »

Dead right. I see some of the Irish shops are matching UK prices on Specialized:
http://www.staggcycles.com/
http://www.worldwidecycles.com/
Would prefer to spend my money in Ireland, so the sooner all shops catch up the better, or they'll miss out on a fortune on the cycletowork scheme.
And as for the clothes & accessories prices....

Just to clarify - it is not the shops who are matching UK prices on Specialized, it was a deal offered by the Specialized importer into Ireland. No single shop, without some kind of assistance by a distributor, could just decide to match UK prices - the margin just wouldn't allow it. AKAIK, every Specialized retailer in the country was able to match UK prices on that brand - that is one of the reasons the Trek prices came down, market forces. At the moment, many Giant models are actually cheaper in Ireland than the UK if you strip out the VAT differential but it hasn't gotten the publicity the Specialized price match has, perhaps because Spesh just seems to be the brand of the moment?

The fun starts over the next few months when the NEW stock starts arriving into UK wholesalers. Because of the weakness of sterling over the last 5/6 months, their new stock will have cost them much more as they'll have been paying in either dollars or euros. Price increases on a fairly large scale seem fairly obvious and some brands have already implemented them i.e. Shimano.

boniver

Lumen wrote: »

In most other retail sectors, the situation you describe would have resulted in consolidation into chains. This is why most people buy food from supermarkets rather than local grocers.

For some reason it han't happened in the bike shop sector. Why?

Why? The cycle market here - despite what some posters may think - is a minnow and very fragmented to boot. Consolidation requires scale accross a market, something that could possible be acchieved in the major cities, just but outside of that, not a hope. Try to build a scaled up operation that would allow for a chain of bikeshops to include Dublin, Cork, Mallow, Bantry, Ballyshannon.....

Also, despite internet pricing, I hope there will always be a place for the local bike shop, for service, for knowledge, for chat, for community. If we lose that, aren't we just closer to becoming a faceless society? I know many people are happy to buy online without necessarily thinking about the fact that their LBS maybe supports their cycling club, or a local race event but it must be quid pro quo at some level surely? Don't get me wrong, none of us, myself included, would wilfully pay more than we have to for any product but isn't there a balance to be had? Isn't it worth sometimes paying a little more to have the benefit of all of the above?

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

In most other retail sectors, the situation you describe would have resulted in consolidation into chains. This is why most people buy food from supermarkets rather than local grocers.

For some reason it han't happened in the bike shop sector. Why?

Well we have Halfords and they're just great, aren't they?

jlang

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well we have Halfords and they're just great, aren't they?

Reminds me I've been meaning to find a bike shop in Dublin 15. I know Halfords in Blanch sell bike stuff but is there one of these famous great service, great knowledge etc. stores in the area?

thebullkf

boniver wrote: »

I don't know what brand that was but I can tell you now that not one of the brands that we sell in the shop I work in operates a double up for rrp. Taking your example, a 100.00 trade price on our list equates to a selling price of 170.00 including Vat, which has to be paid to the government once the item is sold.

To be honest, I don't really want to get into giving out effectively trade information. I can only state as a matter of fact that it is a red herring to think that Irish bikes shops are ripping off people with high profits, it simply isn't true.

In our case, we will do our best to get as close as we can to any price that we are quoted but sometimes it just is not possible because we are not operating on a level playing field with our nearest neighbours - they have lower vat rates and a much larger population that can support much bigger distributors who can buy much bigger quantities and pass on the savings to their retail shop customers. Why not deal with the UK distributor, you might ask. Well, a lot of them don't want to deal with Irish shops. Or the volume they demand to even open an account is not viable for most of us. My boss had this discussion with a UK distributor recently for a brand of bike we wanted to stock specifically to try to offer something we could compete on. They wanted an initial order of 20 bikes and then minimum batches of 6 after that. So what to do when a customer wants a special order or a size we don't have? Not viable. Oh, and on top of all this, no credit to Irish accounts, Pro Forma for the forseeable future.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just telling it like it is.

shockin stats......mind you its hard to turn down mega savings from abroad,prices vary so much here its unreal and i'm a newbie! fresh perspective an all that-eg 30e bog standard gloves in eurocycles-7e in aldi...pump 28e...7e in aldi.. as an entry level enthusiast the maths are a no brainer:eek:.
sounds like we've lost our charm as a nation.... anyone surprised???
seems our greed has filtered down everywhere... was contemplating buyin online from british company but prob gonna buy here now.:rolleyes:

ROK ON

boniver wrote: »

Also, despite internet pricing, I hope there will always be a place for the local bike shop, for service, for knowledge, for chat, for community. If we lose that, aren't we just closer to becoming a faceless society? I know many people are happy to buy online without necessarily thinking about the fact that their LBS maybe supports their cycling club, or a local race event but it must be quid pro quo at some level surely? Don't get me wrong, none of us, myself included, would wilfully pay more than we have to for any product but isn't there a balance to be had? Isn't it worth sometimes paying a little more to have the benefit of all of the above?

A big +1.
I use LBS and internet. But the LBS is as essential to the cycling and commuting community as the small shop in a country village.
This may sound far fecthed, but given thatalmost anything can be sourced cheaper via the interweb, if we take it to the logical conclusion and shop for everything online, well then IMO we will all have to work for internet firms, remain unemployed (they need fewer employees) or become independent of society to provide a living (wealthy or a hippy).

Chips Lovell

boniver wrote: »

Also, despite internet pricing, I hope there will always be a place for the local bike shop, for service, for knowledge, for chat, for community. If we lose that, aren't we just closer to becoming a faceless society? I know many people are happy to buy online without necessarily thinking about the fact that their LBS maybe supports their cycling club, or a local race event but it must be quid pro quo at some level surely? Don't get me wrong, none of us, myself included, would wilfully pay more than we have to for any product but isn't there a balance to be had? Isn't it worth sometimes paying a little more to have the benefit of all of the above?

I've a good bit to say about the whole issue, but just on this point I'd say that in my experience I've found more of a sense of community on the web than in any local bike shop. There is more shared knowledge going on on this site alone than you'd find inside the doors of any shop. I live in Dublin city centre and my experience of bike shops in the area has ranged from totally clueless sales people, poor mechanics or just downright rudeness. There are a few shops I'd like and respect out in the suburbs, but it says a lot about the market that I have to jump on a bus and go miles out of my way to find someone who I'd trust with something as simple as truing a wheel.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

But the LBS is as essential to the cycling and commuting community as the small shop in a country village.
This may sound far fecthed, but given thatalmost anything can be sourced cheaper via the interweb, if we take it to the logical conclusion and shop for everything online, well then IMO we will all have to work for internet firms, remain unemployed (they need fewer employees) or become independent of society to provide a living (wealthy or a hippy).

Broken windows thinking, and you an economist? For shame.

There is nothing essential about a traditional bike shop. You're being sentimental. The most useful bit is servicing and advice, but I know people who've had their cars serviced for years by qualified and experienced mechanics working from home. The rest is "nice to have".

That said, I like bike shops, and use them, and although I haven't bought an actual bike from one for many years, I've spent new-bike money in total over the last six months on clothing and accessories from real bike shops.

The internet is generally disruptive, not destructive, and will bring about new business models.

Maybe a "bicycle repair man in a van". Repairs, wheel building, bike fitting. Reduce costs and focus on the things you can't get from the internet. If your bike is busted, would you prefer to load it into the car and drive to the bike shop, or call the man to come and fix it at your home?

FWIW, both the shops I've used recently (Stagg and Cycleogical) were happy to work on my internet-bought bikes.

ROK ON

@Tonto: true, but there are poor retail formats everywhere. I would have thought that they would die, but some of them keep on surviving.
Of course there is a great community here (I dont think that folks are saying the internet is a bad idea). The strange thing is that while we have all had poor experiences in bike shops, and would have ideas on how to run them better, very few of us are seeking to open one and do it better AFAIK.


@Lumen - Not sure I agree, I do think that shopping is an important part of society. I have witnessed a few rural towns that have gone dwn the route of the big box store just outside town (with lots of carparking and lower prices etc), and within a few years the town centre dies. ow this is a shame for 2 reasons (1) a dead town is just not nice IMO and (2) the retailers that were displaced were obviously nable to compete on anything other than price.
Yes, some new business models will emerge (I like the mobile repair man idea), but in the meantime I like vibrant towns, they are a good place to live. In my opinion they depend on a reason to attract folk in (primarily shopping, buiness, entertainment). But obviously there must be a reason to shop there.

I think that Germany is the country that has gone furthest in Europe with online retailing and consolidated big box stores offering low price. However, there are economic side effects such as a tendency toward deflation versus the rest of Europe. There is a global recession on now, but Germany has had many recessions over the past 2 decades. A general tendency by society to continually look for the lowest price, does have real economic costs, it results in lower economic growth and structurally higher employment. Oh, and in Germany they have not thought of a way to combat their structurally low growth, yet they keep on supporting large format stores that mean that there is little room for competition.
That is fine as long as folk are prepared for the consequences.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

I think that Germany is the country that has gone furthest in Europe with online retailing and consolidated big box stores offering low price. However, there are economic side effects such as a tendency toward deflation versus the rest of Europe. There is a global recession on now, but Germany has had many recessions over the past 2 decades. A general tendency by society to continually look for the lowest price, does have real economic costs, it results in lower economic growth and structurally higher employment. Oh, and in Germany they have not thought of a way to combat their structurally low growth, yet they keep on supporting large format stores that mean that there is little room for competition.
That is fine as long as folk are prepared for the consequences.

Are you seriously blaming Germany's modest growth on big-box retail? I'd say labour market inflexibility and conservative personal finances would be further up the list.

Supermarkets in the UK & Ireland are gradually moving from food to the "sell everything" European model. Witness the amount of talk here about Lidl bikes and Aldi clothing/accessories. Tesco will be in on it soon, if they're not already. This could be the nail in the coffin of the LBS as we know it.

The internet gives people what they want, not necessarily what they need, in the short term. Eventually real life catches up. Whilst there are people who love cycling, and people who love to work with bikes, the two will find some way of co-operating economically to fulfill their mutual needs.

Jawgap

el tonto wrote: »

I've a good bit to say about the whole issue, but just on this point I'd say that in my experience I've found more of a sense of community on the web than in any local bike shop. There is more shared knowledge going on on this site alone than you'd find inside the doors of any shop. I live in Dublin city centre and my experience of bike shops in the area has ranged from totally clueless sales people, poor mechanics or just downright rudeness. There are a few shops I'd like and respect out in the suburbs, but it says a lot about the market that I have to jump on a bus and go miles out of my way to find someone who I'd trust with something as simple as truing a wheel.

I'd agree with the idea that there is a greater sense of community on the net than in the shops, especially if you're new to cycling and super-especially if you're a latecomer who wants to enjoy the activity for what it is. I've learned more in this forum than in going to any LBS, where, to be honest, with the exception of one or two examples, the attitude and customer service stank.

The fact is Irish business culture (including LBSs) abandoned the sense of community as soon as the boom kicked in. From that point on businesses became all about charging what the market could bear, which meant we paid a "boom premium" for goods and services.

The flip side to that is it created a generation of consumers for whom price became the sole arbiter of value, which in turn means a lot of consumers were driven to be price conscious - feeding their collective ego by paying high prices.

Unfortunately for businesses it also means those same consumers now expect a recession discount, hence businesses bleating on about community, value and customer service as justification for maintaining inflated prices. Charging what the market can bear cuts both ways so its a bit disingenuous of businesses to complain about consumers shopping elsehwere when their initial pricing strategies fostered that behaviour.

I know the above are sweeping generalisations and no doubt there are exceptions of shops and businesses who have a traidtion of community and service. Long may they prosper.

LBSs maybe at the mercy of distributors, but my question would be what did they do about it? I don't recall any stories in the papers about them complaining or organising to try and reduce the power of the distributors -were there? Or were they content to go along with high mark-ups and generous margins because we were stupid enough to pay the asking price?

Jawgap

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well we have Halfords and they're just great, aren't they?

I'm picking a bike up from Halfords (Newry) at the weekend and the customer service so far has been excellent.

I intend to post a review of the process of buying from them under the cycle to work scheme once I have the bike and I'm staisfied it's been put together properly!!

But so far, so good.......

boniver

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm picking a bike up from Halfords (Newry) at the weekend and the customer service so far has been excellent.

I intend to post a review of the process of buying from them under the cycle to work scheme once I have the bike and I'm staisfied it's been put together properly!!

But so far, so good.......

I took the time recently to visit a Halfords. I have to be honest I was shocked at the price of the accessories there: E1.50 for 2 presta dustcaps that we give out free to people, E8.50 for a Halfords branded tube - we charge E5.50, E19.50 for a Halfords branded basic ATB tyre that we charge E13.50 for and E32.99 for a Cat Eye light that we charge E22.99 for! In all the time I was there, not one single member of staff even said hello, never mind ask if I wanted any help. Where I work, every customer gets greeted on entering the store and is acknowledged and thanked on leaving, whether the have bought something or not. It shocks me to think that Halfords are responsible for selling almost 1 in every 3 bikes sold in the UK.

boniver

el tonto wrote: »

I've a good bit to say about the whole issue, but just on this point I'd say that in my experience I've found more of a sense of community on the web than in any local bike shop. There is more shared knowledge going on on this site alone than you'd find inside the doors of any shop. I live in Dublin city centre and my experience of bike shops in the area has ranged from totally clueless sales people, poor mechanics or just downright rudeness. There are a few shops I'd like and respect out in the suburbs, but it says a lot about the market that I have to jump on a bus and go miles out of my way to find someone who I'd trust with something as simple as truing a wheel.

I agree that board members and posters are very helpful but not every problem can be solved online. The bigger issue I think is service standards in individual bike shops. Certainly some of the Dublin shops would struggle to survive in smaller towns with their approach to customer service - you can get away with a lot when you have a big population!

TinyExplosions

boniver wrote: »

I took the time recently to visit a Halfords. I have to be honest I was shocked at the price of the accessories there: E1.50 for 2 presta dustcaps that we give out free to people, E8.50 for a Halfords branded tube - we charge E5.50, E19.50 for a Halfords branded basic ATB tyre that we charge E13.50 for and E32.99 for a Cat Eye light that we charge E22.99 for! In all the time I was there, not one single member of staff even said hello, never mind ask if I wanted any help. Where I work, every customer gets greeted on entering the store and is acknowledged and thanked on leaving, whether the have bought something or not. It shocks me to think that Halfords are responsible for selling almost 1 in every 3 bikes sold in the UK.

You sell Halfords branded tubes and tyres? Cool.... though 5.50 for a tube is still very steep -I don't like paying over 3 for em

Jawgap

boniver wrote: »

I took the time recently to visit a Halfords. I have to be honest I was shocked at the price of the accessories there: E1.50 for 2 presta dustcaps that we give out free to people, E8.50 for a Halfords branded tube - we charge E5.50, E19.50 for a Halfords branded basic ATB tyre that we charge E13.50 for and E32.99 for a Cat Eye light that we charge E22.99 for! In all the time I was there, not one single member of staff even said hello, never mind ask if I wanted any help. Where I work, every customer gets greeted on entering the store and is acknowledged and thanked on leaving, whether the have bought something or not. It shocks me to think that Halfords are responsible for selling almost 1 in every 3 bikes sold in the UK.

Leaving aside the fact they started as a bike shop, the main reason I went with Halfords is this for £999 or E1120 compared to E1399 in their Irish stores. Even allowing for the diesel I'll need to burn to go pick it up, I'll still come out about E250 ahead.

Taking on board the advice received here, I'm getting the supervisor to build the bike and I've made sure he's aware that I'm aware of the various build issues that have come to light.

I'd gladly use the cycle to work scheme here, but is there a similarly spec'ed bike for less than E1200 available in the Republic?

As for the other stuff, I'd probably buy that in CRC - Continental tubes for about a fiver; Michelin ATB tyres for E9-10; and this light for E22.

I'd love to spend and buy in my LBS, but I need to get something more than a warm fuzzy feeling if I'm to part with a goodly chunk of cash that wouldn't have to give up if I buy my bike 50 miles up the road.

boniver

TinyExplosions wrote: »

You sell Halfords branded tubes and tyres? Cool.... though 5.50 for a tube is still very steep -I don't like paying over 3 for em

Gosh, you're so smart. You should feel proud.