Sudan Attacks Chad.

Local-womanizer

Thought this might be of interest....although nothing is confirmed yet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8033620.stm

Nothing about our lads yet,lets hope if they do get hassled they put a forcefull stop to it.

Craigsy

If it comes to it, our lads will be well able for them

Manic Moran

Depends on how enthusiastically Sudan attacks. They've got some heavy hardware.

NTM

Local-womanizer

More developments,Irish troops called in to evacuate NGOs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8037127.stm

Craigsy

Manic Moran wrote: »

Depends on how enthusiastically Sudan attacks. They've got some heavy hardware.

NTM

Ah now the Lads have some good hardware too, sniper teams, anti tank weapons, etc.

concussion

Indeed they do, but Sudan has an armies worth of equipment. One mech bn can only kill so much...

In my opinion

Any truth that our boys are very short of fuel and have to wait till end of month for resupply? Today's Indo my new military source.

Manic Moran

Craigsy wrote: »

Ah now the Lads have some good hardware too, sniper teams, anti tank weapons, etc.

Just how many Javelins do you think they brought along with them?

One of The Great Things about tanks (trust me, I know these things) is that it doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't have anything to kill it, the tank's plenty good enough to kill you.

NTM

Craigsy

Not sure exactly, i'm just going off an article from March's issue of An Cosantoir, to quote the article about a patrol

"As night approached ' stand to' was called as two clearance patrols left the camp from 6 and 12 o'clock positions. Sentries armed with GPMGs in addition to their personal weapons, and equipped with NVE, were set up, with personnel rostered to replace the sentries every hour and a half.
Several hundred metres to the north-west of the base camp an overwatch position was established consisting of six personnel, including a sniper and 84mm anti-tank detachment

An Cosantoir, March 2009

Local-womanizer

Situation is escalating even furhter again

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8039004.stm

Manic Moran

Craigsy wrote: »

Several hundred metres to the north-west of the base camp an overwatch position was established consisting of six personnel, including a sniper and 84mm anti-tank detachment

The only thing in the Irish inventory I would rely upon to engage a modern tank is the Javelin. Maybe an 84 from the side, if the enemy is nice enough to present said side shot.

NTM

pmg58

How modern is the tank inventory of the Sudanese army?

BigDuffman

The lads will have to be carefull to avoid any hard patches ground when jumping down to loose an 84 at an approaching tank! Could do themselves a nasty injury:p

arybvtcw0eolkf

BigDuffman wrote: »

The lads will have to be carefull to avoid any hard patches ground when jumping down to loose an 84 at an approaching tank! Could do themselves a nasty injury:p

Given the serious business of soldiering this thread isn't the place for stupidity.

.

Manic Moran

pmg58 wrote: »

How modern is the tank inventory of the Sudanese army?

They're on the current sales brochures of the Russian and Chinese arms dealerships. Sudan underwent a modernisation/re-armament program a couple of years ago.

Type-96 (Al Bashir)


BTR-80A (Al Sharif)


Either would be a bad day for a unit armed with nothing larger than AT-4s.

NTM

O'Coonassa

The Union of Resistance Forces aren't after Eufor troops they're trying to topple Déby. These disparate groups aren't from Sudan, merely supported by it.

Local-womanizer

O'Coonassa wrote: »

The Union of Resistance Forces aren't after Eufor troops they're trying to topple Déby. These disparate groups aren't from Sudan, merely supported by it.

Yeah,but the rebels have been known to kill whole villages with the support of the Sudanese army.The fact the Eufor forces are there to protect these people it is a possiblilty that they could be fired on.

O'Coonassa

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Yeah,but the rebels have been known to kill whole villages with the support of the Sudanese army.The fact the Eufor forces are there to protect these people it is a possiblilty that they could be fired on.

So Déby and his boys are some kind of angels? Extrajudicial killings, beatings, torture, and rape are the order of the day. There's over 200 different ethnicities in Chad, imagine the two tribe problems of the six counties multiplied by 100 and trying to decide who's right and wrong and who did what to who first.

These international missions are always seem to be located where there's an oil pipeline or other lucrative resources for some reason.

Irish_Army01

Manic Moran wrote: »

They're on the current sales brochures of the Russian and Chinese arms dealerships. Sudan underwent a modernisation/re-armament program a couple of years ago.

Type-96 (Al Bashir)


BTR-80A (Al Sharif)


Either would be a bad day for a unit armed with nothing larger than AT-4s.

NTM

I'm sure our Guys on the ground have done their home work on any possible engagements and have formulated TTP's/ SOP's accordingly .

pmg58

Manic Moran wrote: »

Type-96 (Al Bashir)

Thanks for that. Chinese equipment doesn't get as much attention as the equivalent US or Russian stuff, any idea how this would compare to, for example, the Abrams or the T-80 or T-90?

cushtac

O'Coonassa wrote: »

So Déby and his boys are some kind of angels? Extrajudicial killings, beatings, torture, and rape are the order of the day. There's over 200 different ethnicities in Chad, imagine the two tribe problems of the six counties multiplied by 100 and trying to decide who's right and wrong and who did what to who first.

EUFOR are there in support of the displaced civillians on the ground & not the Chadian government.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

These international missions are always seem to be located where there's an oil pipeline or other lucrative resources for some reason.

Would you rather they were not there protecting refugees?

Manic Moran

I'm sure our Guys on the ground have done their home work on any possible engagements and have formulated TTP's/ SOP's accordingly

TTP 1) Call for Help

TTP 2) If no help... Run!

AT-4 is designed for use in constricting terrain, where the enemy is nice enough to get close enough to you to be able to hit, and to be able to hit the weak spot. Chad is not, from what I've seen, constricting terrain.

pmg58 wrote: »

any idea how this would compare to, for example, the Abrams or the T-80 or T-90?

About on a par with a mid-generation T-80 or an early Abrams. I don't have my Big Boy's Book of Tanks to give me more specific detail on optical systems, but the lack of an IR searchlight indicates thermals.

NTM

Craigsy

Just to add they have jav's, guy pictured with one. So as far as anti'armour, reckon they have jav's, AT-4's and 84's

O'Coonassa

cushtac wrote: »

EUFOR are there in support of the displaced civillians on the ground & not the Chadian government.

The corruption in Chad gets educated in France and Chad gets it's business partners from Europe. I don't buy the trick with the smoke and mirrors.

Remember when the excuse was brining Christianity and civilising people. Well times change and now it's 'bringing humantarian aid'

cushtac wrote: »

Would you rather they were not there protecting refugees?

I'd like to see them also go where's there's a situation that doesn't have oil or minerals involved. Then I'd believe they were actual humanitarians instead of scavenging geo-political opportunists.

Manic Moran

Craigsy wrote: »

Just to add they have jav's, guy pictured with one. So as far as anti'armour, reckon they have jav's, AT-4's and 84's

There are, what, 40 CLUs and 60 missiles in the entire Irish inventory? How many of them are in Chad, do you think? Even assuming they won't be facing more than a reinforced company team of Sudanians.

NTM

pmg58

Manic Moran wrote: »

About on a par with a mid-generation T-80 or an early Abrams.

Definitely not the kind of thing to be taking on with an AT-4! Honestly, without support I really dont think our guys on the ground could deal with even a small force armed with these. Anyone have any idea what support is available out there, i.e. close air support?

Local-womanizer

pmg58 wrote: »

Definitely not the kind of thing to be taking on with an AT-4! Honestly, without support I really dont think our guys on the ground could deal with even a small force armed with these. Anyone have any idea what support is available out there, i.e. close air support?

A few months ago the French said they where starting air patrols along the Sundanese border,but I dont know how far up the border.Dont think the French are very close to the Irishs AOP though.The UN courts are taking childrens drawings as evidence regarding the attacks of villages,in nearly every drawing there are tanks.Not a good sign.

@O'Coonassa,I never said anything about Deby,why did you bring that upI said that the Irish are there to protect displaced people from rebels.Whats wrong with that?There was an article a few months after the Irish went in,stating how pleased the women were at being able to go out in the woods without the fear of being raped.

All this talk of oil seems a bit silly,there was never really been a problem with pipelines being attacked in Chad,the factions where too busy killing each other.

O'Coonassa

Local-womanizer wrote: »

All this talk of oil seems a bit silly,there was never really been a problem with pipelines being attacked in Chad,the factions where too busy killing each other.

"The $4.2 billion Chad-Cameroon Oil Development and Pipeline Project is the largest private sector investment in sub-Saharan Africa. Led by Exxon-Mobil with financing from the World Bank and International Finance Corporation (IFC), the 1070 km pipeline remains among the most controversial World Bank Group projects in the institution’s history. Until the project was thrown into crisis in 2006, it was the World Bank’s foremost test case of how to beat the “resource curse” and harness oil production for poverty reduction. In 2000, the World Bank Group approved support for the pipeline despite civil society calls for a moratorium until government capacity was reinforced, democratic institutions strengthened, and the country’s human rights record improved."

They don't want it fractured, simple as really, they're looking after their investment and doing some good work on the side.

pmg58

"On September 9, 2008, The World Bank announced that it was unable to continue supporting the Chad-Cameroon Pipeline project because key arrangements that had underpinned its involvement in and support for the project were not working, notably the agreement that the Government of Chad would allocate oil revenues for poverty-reducing projects in education, health, infrastructure, rural development and improving governance. As of September 5, 2008, the Government of Chad had fully prepaid its loans for pipeline-related financing"

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/AFRICAEXT/EXTREGINI/EXTCHADCAMPIPELINE/0,,menuPK:843277~pagePK:64168427~piPK:64168435~theSitePK:843238,00.html

Background: http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/AFRICAEXT/CHADEXTN/0,,contentMDK:21894530~menuPK:349894~pagePK:2865066~piPK:2865079~theSitePK:349862,00.html


So unless I'm reading this completely wrong, the World Bank has handed complete control of the pipeline to Chad. Are you trying to say that, despite this, they still want to look after it?

O'Coonassa

pmg58 wrote: »

So unless I'm reading this completely wrong, the World Bank has handed complete control of the pipeline to Chad. Are you trying to say that, despite this, they still want to look after it?

Not just that they want to look after the revenue stream but that they want to look after Déby on account of the fact that he's the only one who's agreed to pay them their money back.

Irish_Army01

Manic Moran wrote: »

TTP 1) Call for Help

TTP 2) If no help... Run!

AT-4 is designed for use in constricting terrain, where the enemy is nice enough to get close enough to you to be able to hit, and to be able to hit the weak spot. Chad is not, from what I've seen, constricting terrain.



About on a par with a mid-generation T-80 or an early Abrams. I don't have my Big Boy's Book of Tanks to give me more specific detail on optical systems, but the lack of an IR searchlight indicates thermals.

NTM

I was referring to the Javelin and not the AT-4.

neilled

pmg58 wrote: »

Definitely not the kind of thing to be taking on with an AT-4! Honestly, without support I really dont think our guys on the ground could deal with even a small force armed with these. Anyone have any idea what support is available out there, i.e. close air support?

The french have fast jets in country and I think the poles have attack choppers.

pmg58

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Not just that they want to look after the revenue stream but that they want to look after Déby on account of the fact that he's the only one who's agreed to pay them their money back.

The reason they pulled out of supporting the project is because the Chad government weren't working to reduce poverty, not because Déby agreed to pay their money back.

O'Coonassa

pmg58 wrote: »

The reason they pulled out of supporting the project is because the Chad government weren't working to reduce poverty, not because Déby agreed to pay their money back.

But they havem't pulled out, they made threats and noise and bluffed walking away, but now they're there and the Chad government is as anti-democratic and repressive as ever.

pmg58

I'm still not completely convinced, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you seem to be a Flann O'Brien fan.

Skyhawk1990

Lads lets just hope that the lads over there and the people they're protecting stay safe especially with all the sh1t thats going on over there.

O'Coonassa

The rebels took a beating and have been pushed back towards the border, Déby's butchers are mopping up stragglers.

O'Coonassa

For all those who think EUFOR and our boys aren't supporting Déby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7226995.stm
"The French army enjoys its historic military influence in Africa and quietly backs President Deby with weapons and military intelligence, our correspondent says.

But, at the same time, France wants to pursue a modern, European destiny - it wants a French-dominated European Union peacekeeping force, including Irish and Polish troops, to intervene in the crisis, he adds.

The rebels have previously threatened to attack the force because of France's support for the Chadian government, forcing its deployment to be delayed."

Poccington

It's a well known fact that the rebels hate the French.

So what does our Government do? Rather than spend a bit of money and get Desert DPM's on issue to the lads going over there, they leave us in normal DPM's that are quite similar to the French... Lovely stuff.

Craigsy

Poccington wrote: »

It's a well known fact that the rebels hate the French.

So what does our Government do? Rather than spend a bit of money and get Desert DPM's on issue to the lads going over there, they leave us in normal DPM's that are quite similar to the French... Lovely stuff.

And they ban the lads from playing footy, cause everyone knows falling over is a lot more dangerous than an AK-47

Poccington

Craigsy wrote: »

And they ban the lads from playing footy, cause everyone knows falling over is a lot more dangerous than an AK-47

Well in fairness to Lt. Col McDonagh, I can see why he'd be a bit worried about lads picking up injuries. Having met the man, he certainly doesn't seem like the kind of character that would babysit lads.

neilled

O'Coonassa wrote: »

For all those who think EUFOR and our boys aren't supporting Déby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7226995.stm
"The French army enjoys its historic military influence in Africa and quietly backs President Deby with weapons and military intelligence, our correspondent says.

But, at the same time, France wants to pursue a modern, European destiny - it wants a French-dominated European Union peacekeeping force, including Irish and Polish troops, to intervene in the crisis, he adds.

The rebels have previously threatened to attack the force because of France's support for the Chadian government, forcing its deployment to be delayed."

The EUFOR mandate is over and Minurcat is in place now.
The commanding officer of EUFOR was an Irishman - General Nash. The mission and the forces under his command fulfilled their mandate of protecting refugees fleeing the darfur conflict, from marauding rebels bandits, ill disciplined government forces, and the local skanger equivalents who preyed on the weak. No more no less, no oil, no piplines - nothing. They let the two scrapping sides get on with their thing.

EUFOR were very clear that they were not part of the french military mission in Chad and have acted in a way that has not made them party to the traditional French pastime of manoeuvring for influence in Africa.

Deby's regime is one both unpleasant and corrupt - there is no question about that, however sorting out deby was not the mission mandate.

What does seem to emerge from this who episode and the failure of peacekeeping and enforcement on Europe's door step during the 1990's is that Europe and especially Ireland needs to think about how much they spend on defence and what they spend it on in future. For the millions of full time troops under arms in europe, it would appear a relatively low number are deployable overseas rapidly and in particular there would appear to be a shortage of Helicopters and Heavy Lift aircraft that urgently needs to be addressed.

pmg58

Poccington wrote: »

So what does our Government do? Rather than spend a bit of money and get Desert DPM's on issue to the lads going over there, they leave us in normal DPM's that are quite similar to the French... Lovely stuff.

If i remember correctly, their excuse being that they didn't want us to look like the French because so that we wouldn't be targeted by the French hating rebels etc. It just didn't make sense to me taking part in a French-led mission with that attitude....

-aurora

Poccington wrote: »

It's a well known fact that the rebels hate the French.

So what does our Government do? Rather than spend a bit of money and get Desert DPM's on issue to the lads going over there, they leave us in normal DPM's that are quite similar to the French... Lovely stuff.

the reason the higher ups gave for not issuing desert dpm is because the french troops are using desert dpm and they were afraid the rebels would mistake irish troops for french.

Poccington

-aurora wrote: »

the reason the higher ups gave for not issuing desert dpm is because the french troops are using desert dpm and they were afraid the rebels would mistake irish troops for french.

Then of course pretty much every pic you see of the French out on patrol over there has them in woodland DPM... Go figure.

Fishtits

Pathetic. if that is the reasoning. Explain?

pmg58

Reading between the line it goes something like this:

"Ah sure the lads already have green uniforms, they'll be grand in those without us having to fork out for desert ones"

Local-womanizer

Its Ireland,anything that would make sense they ignore.

Brian.

ah sure, what u expect from these shower of gob****es in govn repesentin us..... cheap bastards......

-aurora

pmg58 wrote: »

Reading between the line it goes something like this:

"Ah sure the lads already have green uniforms, they'll be grand in those without us having to fork out for desert ones"

ha yea or "sure we gave them desert boots that'll do them!"

twinytwo

Craigsy wrote: »

Just to add they have jav's, guy pictured with one. So as far as anti'armour, reckon they have jav's, AT-4's and 84's

tbh at like 100,000 a pop for a missile how many do you think they would have... a handfull if they are lucky

At-4 is useless against any serious armour and only effect up to 300 meters