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Gripes with your own...

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    #122
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Naz_st wrote: »
    Really? A "big" list? Of "good" reasons?
    Surely those two words are mutually exclusive in this context?! :)

    Well maybe I spoke a bit too hastily there :P


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    #123
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Dades wrote: »
    People have replied insofar as they can - given that atheism is just a lack of belief.

    Is there a particular gripe you are waiting to hear, or where is all this going?

    I'm just royally disappointed at the lack of critical thinking. It seems this thread is going on the road to nowhere currently :)


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    #124
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm just royally disappointed at the lack of critical thinking.

    Says the person who could not think of a single criticism of The Bible.


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    #125
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm just royally disappointed at the lack of critical thinking. It seems this thread is going on the road to nowhere currently :)

    It is some what because the question is flawed -

    gripes about how your own ideology is executed or the others that are sharing your belief

    Atheism isn't an ideology, so right there is your problem, as a plumber might say.

    People certain have grips about well known atheists who put forward their own ideologies, for example Richard Dawkins seems to annoy as many atheists as theists.

    But you can't really misrepresent atheism, in the same way you can't misrepresent vegetarianism, beyond something really silly like I'm an atheist and I believe in God, or I'm a vegetarian and I eat meat. It is an atomic description of someone. You either do eat meat or you don't eat meat (or at least you do try to not eat meat) Why you are a veggy can vary wildly between persons and no one reason is the ideology of vegetarianism.

    Dawkins is as much an atheists as anyone else, so any criticism of him will merely be personal. Someone might say that he is too aggressive, but there is nothing about atheism that says you should or should not be aggressive.

    Someone might say he makes it sound like atheism is intellectually elitist. But there is nothing about being an atheist that says you shouldn't make atheism sound elitist.

    None of these are misrepresentations of atheism or atheists. He can do all these things and it doesn't reflect on other atheists because there is nothing to misrepresent. And then you are just into the realm of What annoys you about other people

    That is wildly different from say Christianity, where a Christian probably would be at pains to stress that someone like Fred Phelps does not represent Christianity because there is something about Christianity that says you shouldn't act like Fred Phelps.


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    #126
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm just royally disappointed at the lack of critical thinking. It seems this thread is going on the road to nowhere currently :)
    By all means enlighten us as to what gripes, other than personal gripes with people who are atheists, one could possibly have with a lack of belief.


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    #127
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Someone might say he makes it sound like atheism is intellectually elitist

    He's actually specifically against that. He says that the idea that we're all too smart to need religion but the "ordinary people, hoi polloi.....semi morons etc" need religion is condescending


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    #128
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Says the person who could not think of a single criticism of The Bible.

    Yet who came up with 12 criticisms of modern Christianity? Let's be reasonable here, my OP was pretty fair.


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    #129
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    He's actually specifically against that. He says that the idea that we're all too smart to need religion but the "ordinary people, hoi polloi.....semi morons etc" need religion is condescending

    Just an example off the top of my head, wasn't saying that is what I think :)


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    #130
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Yet who came up with 12 criticisms of modern Christianity? Let's be reasonable here, my OP was pretty fair.

    Irrelavant. That's not a problem with your belief system. Thats a problem with the believers of a belief system.

    It seems when it comes to viewing The Bible, all critical faculties miracuously (pun intended) vanish.


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    #131
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I never said that was what the thread had to be about. I don't have any issue with the Scriptures at all. However, I don't even hear one possible issue with how atheists actually conduct themselves or represent their position?

    This was my attempt to get a somewhat interesting discussion going and I thought it had a lot of potential. Apparently not :(


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    #132
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I never said that was what the thread had to be about. I don't have any issue with the Scriptures at all. However, I don't even hear one possible issue with how atheists actually conduct themselves or represent their position?

    This was my attempt to get a somewhat interesting discussion going and I thought it had a lot of potential. Apparently not :(

    Ok. Let's take the High-King of Atheism, Richard Dawkins.

    Do I have a problem with his approach? Yes. I find him to be too aggressive, condescending and probably does a better job of turning people away from rational/scientific thinking than reasoned persuasion.

    Does this have anything to do with him not believing in god/s? No.

    So, I really don't see what this has to do with Atheism.

    :confused:


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    #133
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    As has been stated previously here, not believeing in gods is not an ideology. I'm not sure what you expect to hear Jakkass. Why would any one have a problem with the conduct of another individual who also happens not to believe in gods? Dawkins et all don't represent me, they are not the heads of any 'church of atheism' nor I a member. They are outspoken atheists, but individuals.


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    #134
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    It might be more constructive to turn the question to atheistic belief systems like Humanism. Do I have a problem with the way Humanism is portrayed by fellow Humanists? Not really, although we could do with raising our profile slightly, we tend to be ignored. Things are slowly moving in that direction with the UK now including Humanists in faith consultation groups, Ireland should follow suit. Sometimes I suppose Humanism comes across as bit idealistic and airy fairy, but that tends to be grounded by Humanists tendency to put evidence and empirical based approach first leading to overall pragmatism. But tbh there is not much I can think to criticize, besides criticisms of individual personalities.


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    #135
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Jakkass wrote: »
    However, I don't even hear one possible issue with how atheists actually conduct themselves or represent their position?
    Feel free to ignore these again. :)
    dvpower wrote: »
    I must admit, some of the language Dawkins uses goes way too far e.g. comparing religion to child abuse. Even the title of 'The God Delusion' seems harsh.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Absolute atheism also annoys me a bit. I don't think I could ever say 100% that there is no God (I use the term God loosely here); we can only say that there is insufficient evidence for God.
    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    On topic, I have beefs with arrogant atheists who think that it's their right to patronise and to talk down to people. I also have beefs with the way many atheists seem to equate atheism to being automatically superior in intelligence to every religious person in the world.
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    To be honest, what annoys me most about atheists is the silence. Atheists (passive and non-judgemental as we are) tend to just go along with life and not get too worried about things.
    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    And one last beef that I have and it's with atheists who think that their aggressive and arrogant form of argument can actually help them persuade people over to their way of thinking. I mean for **** sake do you really think people are going to be open to your line of thinking when you're basically calling them retards?
    sink wrote: »
    My gripes are with the wider community not just atheists. I have a gripe with the way some people (atheists included) think atheism is a dirty word.
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    ...This being said, the only gripe I have with Atheists, and it's one I have with nationalists also is those that think we have some ideology to live by. Those who think we should be converting theists by biting our tongue or watching how we might be perceived as arrogant or pompous so as not to scare off a ripe convert. Those who think it is our duty to show ourselves as equally or more so moral than theists.

    I don't care if the Irish language dies out and I don't care if Theists won't give up the goat because they listened to Hitchens and found him arrogant. Nothing gets under my skin more than when I read something like "You're Irish/Atheist and you should be..."
    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    I suppose one could criticize the above and others of misrepresenting Atheism by being too aggressive or being pro-active at all, seeing as Atheism is meant to be a disbelief in god/s and nothing more. However, one could equally argue that atheists are not represented in a society which is dominated by people who believe that they will burn in hell and people who try to enforce laws which coincide with their bronze-age personal beliefs, many of which are abhorrent to most atheists.


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