Motorway/Dualcarriageway

Sully

Folks..
Can you clear up some confusion regarding driving on Motorway/Dualcarriageway.

Scenario 1:: A car on a Motorway/Dualcarriageway under the speed limit is on the right lane. Can I legally overtake (or undertake) on the left lane to go at the speed limit? I understand the right lane is for overtaking, so I assume the car on that lane "hogging" it so doing so illegaly?

Scenario 2:: A car on a Motorway/Dualcarriageway under the speed limit is on the right lane. A few hundered meters ahead is a roundabout. As you approach the roundabout you will find markings to indicate you can only use the right lane for turning right and left for straight and left only.

Can you legally overtake (or undertake) on the left lane to go at the speed limit to get past the car "hogging" the lane? Should that car not switch to the right lane as he approaches the turn?

hayyman

Sully wrote: »

Folks..
Can you clear up some confusion regarding driving on Motorway/Dualcarriageway.

Scenario 1:: A car on a Motorway/Dualcarriageway under the speed limit is on the right lane. Can I legally overtake (or undertake) on the left lane to go at the speed limit? I understand the right lane is for overtaking, so I assume the car on that lane "hogging" it so doing so illegaly?

Scenario 2:: A car on a Motorway/Dualcarriageway under the speed limit is on the right lane. A few hundered meters ahead is a roundabout. As you approach the roundabout you will find markings to indicate you can only use the right lane for turning right and left for straight and left only.

Can you legally overtake (or undertake) on the left lane to go at the speed limit to get past the car "hogging" the lane? Should that car not switch to the right lane as he approaches the turn?

You can overtake in the left hand or right hand lane on a dualcarriageway.

If you overtake in the left hand lane on a motorway in the normal flow of traffic then thats whats called undertaking

Berty

Question is answered

here

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

and here

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

Hooch

Sully wrote: »

Folks..
Can you clear up some confusion regarding driving on Motorway/Dualcarriageway.

Scenario 1:: A car on a Motorway/Dualcarriageway under the speed limit is on the right lane. Can I legally overtake (or undertake) on the left lane to go at the speed limit? I understand the right lane is for overtaking, so I assume the car on that lane "hogging" it so doing so illegaly?

Scenario 2:: A car on a Motorway/Dualcarriageway under the speed limit is on the right lane. A few hundered meters ahead is a roundabout. As you approach the roundabout you will find markings to indicate you can only use the right lane for turning right and left for straight and left only.

Can you legally overtake (or undertake) on the left lane to go at the speed limit to get past the car "hogging" the lane? Should that car not switch to the right lane as he approaches the turn?

No im afraid. You cant under take a vehicle on any road. The vehicle on the outside overtaking lane is committing an offence, failing to drive on the left hand side/lane.

As for the roundabout, 1 you should have seen the advance warning sign for the lanes and be in the correct lane, and 2 the left lane is for the first and second exits, right hand lane is for third and subsequent exits. So in short you have to be in the correct lane.:)

hayyman wrote: »

You can overtake in the left hand or right hand lane on a dualcarriageway.

If you overtake in the left hand lane on a motorway in the normal flow of traffic then thats whats called undertaking

100% wrong. Road Traffic Act - you can ONLY over take on the right, unless the vehicle on the right is turning right and slowing down or stopped. There is an FCPS for over taking on the left/inside. The is also an FCPS as I stated above for driving on the overtaking lane and not on the right. These are not to be confused with the specific motorway offences, that are listed as motorway offences and not normaly RTA offences.

vectra

nice guy always wrote: »

100% wrong. Road Traffic Act - you can ONLY over take on the right, unless the vehicle on the right is turning right and slowing down or stopped. There is an FCPS for over taking on the left/inside. The is also an FCPS as I stated above for driving on the overtaking lane and not on the right. These are not to be confused with the specific motorway offences, that are listed as motorway offences and not normaly RTA offences.

REMEMBER You must normally overtake on the right. However, you are allowed to overtake on the left in the situations listed below.
You may overtake on the left when

* You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
* You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
* Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane.

Sully

What about the car in the right hand lane turning right about 500m or so down the road? Or should the car only move into the lane when the warning signs indicate that your to switch lanes?

Hooch

Sully wrote: »

What about the car in the right hand lane turning right about 500m or so down the road? Or should the car only move into the lane when the warning signs indicate that your to switch lanes?

Is that two questions sully??

If the vehicle is turning right, indicating such and slowing then yes of course you can. In relation to the post above slow moving traffic refers to heavy traffic like in a city or a backed up dual carrigway or motorway.

Seth Brundle

nice guy always wrote: »

No im afraid. You cant under take a vehicle on any road. The vehicle on the outside overtaking lane is committing an offence, failing to drive on the left hand side/lane.

Wrong!
Aren't you a member of AGS?

nice guy always wrote: »

As for the roundabout, 1 you should have seen the advance warning sign for the lanes and be in the correct lane, and 2 the left lane is for the first and second exits, right hand lane is for third and subsequent exits. So in short you have to be in the correct lane.:)

This is not the case with every roundabout; in some cases the second exit is at two or three o'clock. In some cases there may be only one exit off the roundabout (straight ahead).
Anyhow, there is no clarity from a legal perspective on lane procedure when approaching or using a roundabout IIRC.

nice guy always wrote: »

100% wrong. Road Traffic Act - you can ONLY over take on the right, unless the vehicle on the right is turning right and slowing down or stopped. There is an FCPS for over taking on the left/inside. The is also an FCPS as I stated above for driving on the overtaking lane and not on the right. These are not to be confused with the specific motorway offences, that are listed as motorway offences and not normaly RTA offences.

Thats different from your first paragraph!

Hooch

kbannon wrote: »

Wrong!
Aren't you a member of AGS?
This is not the case with every roundabout; in some cases the second exit is at two or three o'clock. In some cases there may be only one exit off the roundabout (straight ahead).
Anyhow, there is no clarity from a legal perspective on lane procedure when approaching or using a roundabout IIRC.
Thats different from your first paragraph!

In regard to the two bold lines - There are from the same post and outline to the O/P in two paragraphys. Dont seperate them as if they were different posts and i was changing something.
Section 17 (1) Road Traffic General Bye laws 1964

As for your comment on roundabouts, left lane = first and second exit. Right lane = third and subsequent exits unless otherwise stated on lane/ sign markings. The location of the exits in relation to the clock has no bearing on it. This is the legislation in the state. Rules of the road is just that, rules....not law.

Also all above has been poven in court, say what you will but I have convicted on this on a monthly basis, as do half of AGS

Sully

Okay, so lets say I was driving on a road. We just exited from a roundabout and a car was on the right hand lane. A bit of a distance up the road was another roundabout (its a Ring Road) where the lanes are marked to avoid people going straight on in the second lane. There are also warnings signs. The car was going slow, so we just drove past in the left lane. My understanding was that the right lane is for overtaking and should only be used if turning right.

When should the car be on the right lane for when turning right? He stayed in it all the time, but was a distance from the exit. Should he have been on the left lane, moved when the signs appeared and exited as appropriate?

Iv been in similar cases on much longer dual carriageways where the car on the right lane was going pretty slow, so I had to use the left lane to "overtake", and nowhere near an exit. I assumed driving continuously, unless overtaking or exiting, on the left lane was not permitted.

Zube

nice guy always wrote: »

As for your comment on roundabouts, left lane = first and second exit. Right lane = third and subsequent exits unless otherwise stated on lane/ sign markings. The location of the exits in relation to the clock has no bearing on it. This is the legislation in the state.

Can you tell me whereabouts this is defined in law?

whiterebel

So, I'm proceeding in an orderly 100kph fashion in the left lane of the Naas Dual carriageway. The cars in the centre lane are doing 80/90. If I proceed at the speed limit, I will undertake them. I now have to indicate right, go out, overtake into the overtaking lane, then back into centre and back into left hand lane. Cross 4 lanes of traffic because the twats won't stay off the centre lane. That makes sense.

greendom

whiterebel wrote: »

So, I'm proceeding in an orderly 100kph fashion in the left lane of the Naas Dual carriageway. The cars in the centre lane are doing 80/90. If I proceed at the speed limit, I will undertake them. I now have to indicate right, go out, overtake into the overtaking lane, then back into centre and back into left hand lane. Cross 4 lanes of traffic because the twats won't stay off the centre lane. That makes sense.

The guys in the middle lane are committing an offence, and so would you be if you undertook them

Drummerboy08

bladespin wrote: »

OMG I can't believe someone actually posted that, read the rules of the road before you get into your car pleae.

Just as well Nice Guy is a copper then isn't it? Hopefully, he knows what he's talking about. For the most part, i agree with his posts here.

Henry Ford III

hayyman wrote: »

You can overtake in the left hand or right hand lane on a dualcarriageway.

If you overtake in the left hand lane on a motorway in the normal flow of traffic then thats whats called undertaking

Ah now for goodness sake! :eek:

omega man

While were at it, who has right of way in a 'three lane' scenario where both the outside and the inside lane cars are merging into the middle lane? For example the outside (lane 3) car has completed its overtake and the inside (lane 1) car is starting to overtake?

tin79

nice guy always wrote: »

As for your comment on roundabouts, left lane = first and second exit. Right lane = third and subsequent exits unless otherwise stated on lane/ sign markings. The location of the exits in relation to the clock has no bearing on it. This is the legislation in the state

Can i ask a question on this from a legislation point of view please?

If this is indeed the case then why are the RSA, or whoever marks the roads, allowed to mark two lanes at roundabouts that only have two exits? If it is the case that the right hand lane is only for 3rd or subsequent exits then in the case of roundabouts with only 1 or 2 exits the right hand lane is by deninition always illegal to use?

Would that be right?

Anan1

whiterebel wrote: »

So, I'm proceeding in an orderly 100kph fashion in the left lane of the Naas Dual carriageway. The cars in the centre lane are doing 80/90. If I proceed at the speed limit, I will undertake them. I now have to indicate right, go out, overtake into the overtaking lane, then back into centre and back into left hand lane. Cross 4 lanes of traffic because the twats won't stay off the centre lane. That makes sense.

Pretty much, this is what makes them such an irritant.

Anan1

bladespin wrote: »

Then he should know better.

If your lane (inside) is moving faster than the one on the right you can safely pass without committing any offence, the vehicle in the overtaking lane is the offender.

Only under the conditions previously posted by vectra:
* You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
* You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
* Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane.

Gregor Samsa

hayyman wrote: »

You can overtake in the left hand or right hand lane on a dualcarriageway.

If you overtake in the left hand lane on a motorway in the normal flow of traffic then thats whats called undertaking

Ah yes, the the often quoted "Pub Rules of the Road":

• You can overtake any way you like on a dual carriageway
• A Garda can't stop you unless he has his hat on
• Chickens have right of way over ducks, unless the duck is migrating south for winter. So always carry a chicken in your boot, and you'll have right of way in most cases.

Unfortunately, they don't carry the same legal weight as the real Rules of the Road, and the various Road Traffic Acts on which they're based. So you're first sentences is dangerously wrong, apart from some very specific sencarios:

Multiple Lanes:

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/...rriageway.html

Dual carriageways are roads with two or more lanes of traffic travelling in each direction. The outer or right-hand lane in each direction is the lane nearest to the centre of the dual carriageway.

You must normally drive in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway. You may use the outer lane of a two-lane or three-lane dual carriageway only:

• for overtaking, and
• when intending to turn right a short distance ahead.

Overtaking:

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/good-driving.html#4


You must normally overtake on the right. However, you are allowed to overtake on the left in the situations listed below.

You may overtake on the left when:

• You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
• You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
• Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane

I can't make any sense of the second sentence, but regardless of anything else you're doing wrong, I hope you're always following the normal flow of traffic on a motorway. :eek:

robtri

bladespin wrote: »

Then he should know better.

If your lane (inside) is moving faster than the one on the right you can safely pass without committing any offence, the vehicle in the overtaking lane is the offender.

he does know better... cause you are so wrong....
i know you are going to sit there reading this, along with a lot of other people, and think no no I am right...
if you don't believe me... contact RSA
here's the link to their contact page... http://www.rsa.ie/CONTACT/CONTACT/Navigation.html

they will tell you same thing...

Anan1

I find this thread quite depressing. What's so complicated about drive left, overtake right?

Drummerboy08

Its kind of scary to think thats the attitude and "knowledge" out there.

Gregor Samsa

bladespin wrote: »

Then he should know better.

If your lane (inside) is moving faster than the one on the right you can safely pass without committing any offence, the vehicle in the overtaking lane is the offender.

Also wrong. This only applies when traffic is moving slowly (see quote from the ROTR above). And moving slowly doesn't mean 80 km/h, or anything slower than you'd like to go.

Say you're coming up to a busy roundabout. There's a queue of traffic in both lanes. You're in the left lane, crawling along - stop start traffic. If you're lane happens to be going a little faster than one to you're right, then it's OK for you go past the cars to your right - you don't need to sit there with a big gap in front of you and wait for the right hand lane to start moving before you go.

That's all it means.

Zube

Anan1 wrote: »

What's so complicated about drive left, overtake right?

Come off it, 10 minutes on a motorway and you'll see that 1 driver in 3 doesn't know this rule.

I actually figured out what one of them was thinking on Saturday. Driving along the M6, I caught up with a Passat in the overtaking lane. I pulled out behind him, he pulled in, I passed, and he pulled back out as I pulled in again. He then sailed along in the outside for a further half mile or so until we passed a junction. As soon as he passed the slip road, he pulled into the left.

So, he was out in the overtaking lane for 2 miles or more just in case any traffic needed to merge from the sliproad!

Wossack

omega man wrote: »

While were at it, who has right of way in a 'three lane' scenario where both the outside and the inside lane cars are merging into the middle lane? For example the outside (lane 3) car has completed its overtake and the inside (lane 1) car is starting to overtake?

I would say the one having done the overtaking, as the other person would have comitted an illegal maneuover undertaking what the other lad just overtook, and shouldnt be there at all

Or something...

Anan1

Zube wrote: »

Come off it, 10 minutes on a motorway and you'll see that 1 driver in 3 doesn't know this rule.

I actually figured out what one of them was thinking on Saturday. Driving along the M6, I caught up with a Passat in the overtaking lane. I pulled out behind him, he pulled in, I passed, and he pulled back out as I pulled in again. He then sailed along in the outside for a further half mile or so until we passed a junction. As soon as he passed the slip road, he pulled into the left.

So, he was out in the overtaking lane for 2 miles or more just in case any traffic needed to merge from the sliproad!

I'd say it's more like 1 in 2 - still doesn't make the rule complicated.;)

stealthyspeeder

nice guy always wrote: »

Section 17 (1) Road Traffic General Bye laws 1964

As for your comment on roundabouts, left lane = first and second exit. Right lane = third and subsequent exits unless otherwise stated on lane/ sign markings. The location of the exits in relation to the clock has no bearing on it. This is the legislation in the state. Rules of the road is just that, rules....not law.

Also all above has been poven in court, say what you will but I have convicted on this on a monthly basis, as do half of AGS

The road taffic act of 1964 only has amendments to the road traffic act of 1961, no section 17(1) there at all, the 17(1) section in the 1961 act relates to expenses, why did you put this in your post?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0017.html#zza24y1961s17

Where in the road traffic act does it say that "left lane = first and second exit. Right lane = third and subsequent exits unless otherwise stated on lane/ sign markings."? Why would the rules of the road be different from the legislation on such a clear and unambiguous procedure?

Sully

So have we actually established an answer or is everyone still very confused?

Zube

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

The road taffic act of 1964 only has amendments to the road traffic act of 1961, no section 17(1) there at all, the 17(1) section in the 1961 act relates to expenses, why did you put this in your post?

I believe the reference was to the associated bye-laws, where 17 and 19 are the rules on overtaking.

I don't see anything in there (or any of the amendments) defining which lane to use at a roundabout.

bladespin

I'm completely lost on it, I can't see for the life of me why I should slow down if the way ahead in my lane is clear but there's a moron in the overtaking lane driving along at eg 60kmh, doesn't my slowing down achieve nothing here?

I've driven like that for the past 15 years without a problem, I've sat beside off and on duty guards as they did the same thing.

Zube

bladespin wrote: »

I can't see for the life of me why I should slow down if the way ahead in my lane is clear but there's a moron in the overtaking lane driving along at eg 60kmh

Them's the rules.

RLJ

kbannon wrote: »

This is not the case with every roundabout; in some cases the second exit is at two or three o'clock. In some cases there may be only one exit off the roundabout (straight ahead).
Anyhow, there is no clarity from a legal perspective on lane procedure when approaching or using a roundabout IIRC.
Thats different from your first paragraph!

Am I right that:
If the second exit is at or past 12 o clock you should aproach in the right hand lane?

whiterebel

Can someone give us the RSA definition of "slowly"? To most thats going to be anyone doing less than the limit in their lane.......:D

Anan1

whiterebel wrote: »

Can someone give us the RSA definition of "slowly"? To most thats going to be anyone doing less than the limit in their lane.......:D

My understanding is that it means stop-start traffic.

Zube

whiterebel wrote: »

Can someone give us the RSA definition of "slowly"?

No, but in the bye-laws I linked earlier, there's this definition:

" slow vehicle " means-

a) a vehicle which is not mechanically propelled,

(b) a mechanically propelled vehicle to which an ordinary speed limit of not more than twenty miles per hour applies, and

(c) a mechanically propelled vehicle so constructed or adapted as to be incapable of exceeding 24 miles per hour on a level road

So we might infer that "slow" means "less than 24 mph".

GreeBo

Anan1 wrote: »

I'd say it's more like 1 in 2 - still doesn't make the rule complicated.;)

It doesnt make the rule complicated, it just makes obeying it pretty difficult.
Have to go from lane 1 - lane 3 and back again because there is someone in lane 2 on an otherwise empty road gets old very quickly on a long journey.:mad:

I have a question on the ROTR explanation of when you can "undertake".
You can undertake when traffic is slow moving and left lane is moving faster than the right lane.
Question is, why is there so much traffic in the right (AKA overtaking) lane?
shouldnt all the traffic be queuing in the left lane?

vibe666

RLJ wrote: »

Am I right that:
If the second exit is at or past 12 o clock you should aproach in the right hand lane?

i'm pretty sure you are.

there was a lengthy roundabout thread on here a while ago and it had been bugging me for ages but i thought that thread had cleared up the roundabout thing, but it seems not.

I'm almost 100% certain that the Irish ROTR clearly states the same thing as in other european countries, that if you approach a roundabout with 2 lanes from the 6 o'clock position and are exiting before the 12 o'clock position you take the left lane and for all subsequent exists you take the right lane regardless of the number of exits UNLESS the road markings dictate otherwise in which case they take precendent.

it's the way it's taught in the UK and also the way it works in the rest of Europe and I'm almost 100% certain it was cleared up before that it is the same here in Ireland, but as always I'm open to correction if that's not the case.

whiterebel

vibe666 wrote: »

i'm pretty sure you are.

there was a lengthy roundabout thread on here a while ago and it had been bugging me for ages but i thought that thread had cleared up the roundabout thing, but it seems not.

I'm almost 100% certain that the Irish ROTR clearly states the same thing as in other european countries, that if you approach a roundabout with 2 lanes from the 6 o'clock position and are exiting before the 12 o'clock position you take the left lane and for all subsequent exists you take the right lane regardless of the number of exits UNLESS the road markings dictate otherwise in which case they take precendent.

it's the way it's taught in the UK and also the way it works in the rest of Europe and I'm almost 100% certain it was cleared up before that it is the same here in Ireland, but as always I'm open to correction if that's not the case.

How would you know the position of the exits on a roundabout you don't know? Rule has always been 1st and 2nd exit stay left, anything after 2nd start right, pull out into the outside and indicate left at the exit before yours.

RLJ

whiterebel wrote: »

Rule has always been 1st and 2nd exit stay left, anything after 2nd start right, pull out into the outside and indicate left at the exit before yours.

No the 12 o clock rule is right. see www.drivingschoolireland.com

How would you know the position of the exits on a roundabout you don't know?

very good question esp as some are built up with hedges and you cannot see the exit. I think the exits should be flagged much earlier than they are on approach

whiterebel

RLJ wrote: »

No the 12 o clock rule is right. see www.drivingschoolireland.com
very good question esp as some are built up with hedges and you cannot see the exit. I think the exits should be flagged much earlier than they are on approach

I'll see your drivingschoolireland.com rubbish, and raise you a http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

Where does it mention 12 o'clock, BTW?

Zube

whiterebel wrote: »

Where does it mention 12 o'clock, BTW?

It mentions taking a left, going straight, or taking any later exit, which is the same as the 12 O'clock rule.

Where does it mention the first, second or third exits? It doesn't.

whiterebel

Zube wrote: »

It mentions taking a left, going straight, or taking any later exit, which is the same as the 12 O'clock rule.

Where does it mention the first, second or third exits? It doesn't.

It does you know......

"Stay in the left-hand lane, but do not indicate "left" until you have passed the first exit. Where conditions dictate otherwise, you may follow the course shown by the broken red line."

I have heard of exits since I've been driving, but this thread is the first I've ever heard of "12 o'clock rule". A lot of roundabouts in this country don't go straight through, either.

Seth Brundle

omega man wrote: »

While were at it, who has right of way in a 'three lane' scenario where both the outside and the inside lane cars are merging into the middle lane? For example the outside (lane 3) car has completed its overtake and the inside (lane 1) car is starting to overtake?

In theory, this won't happen as you will be watching. The reality is different though and technically, I'd say that as you have to give way to traffic on your right, the driver in lane 3 has RoW. Were there to be contact between the two, I'd say that it would come down to 50:50.

Zube wrote: »

Come off it, 10 minutes on a motorway and you'll see that 1 driver in 3 doesn't know this rule.

Thats part of the problem with driving in Ireland. Most drivers don't know most of the rules!

Sully wrote: »

So have we actually established an answer or is everyone still very confused?

I forget what the question was!

RLJ wrote: »

Am I right that:
If the second exit is at or past 12 o clock you should aproach in the right hand lane?

There is no clear definition within the legislation so its down to interpretation and common sense (assuming there is no road markings)

whiterebel wrote: »

Can someone give us the RSA definition of "slowly"? To most thats going to be anyone doing less than the limit in their lane.......:D

Again its not defined and according to several garda sources, if traffic is not crawling (e.g. rush hour) when you undertake then you are breaking this law.

GreeBo wrote: »

It doesnt make the rule complicated, it just makes obeying it pretty difficult.
Have to go from lane 1 - lane 3 and back again because there is someone in lane 2 on an otherwise empty road gets old very quickly on a long journey.:mad:

You shouldn't have to do this though!

GreeBo wrote: »

Question is, why is there so much traffic in the right (AKA overtaking) lane?
shouldnt all the traffic be queuing in the left lane?

I'd love to know the exact reasons but it appears that Irish drivers don't like having a car in front of them (regardless of distance) and prefer to keep right. I think that because its presumed to be a fast lane and their car is doing over x km/h then they should be in the fast lane.
Its all boils down to ignorance though.

Zube

whiterebel wrote: »

"Stay in the left-hand lane, but do not indicate "left" until you have passed the first exit.

That's the text explaining the diagram, which happens to be a perfect 4-way junction.

Reading all of the text, it's clear thet there are three different cases:
Making a left turn, Going straight ahead, Taking any later exits

I haven't even reformatted those: they are pasted directly from the page in question (not the Statute book).

So, how do you think a 3rd exit should be treated if it's "straight ahead"? How should a second exit be treated if it's clearly later then straight ahead?

whiterebel

Zube wrote: »

That's the text explaining the diagram, which happens to be a perfect 4-way junction.

Reading all of the text, it's clear thet there are three different cases:
Making a left turn, Going straight ahead, Taking any later exits

I haven't even reformatted those: they are pasted directly from the page in question (not the Statute book).

So, how do you think a 3rd exit should be treated if it's "straight ahead"? How should a second exit be treated if it's clearly later then straight ahead?

3rd exit, stay in the inside lane and move out at the second. If you stay on the left the whole way you are asking to get shunted by a car taking the second.

"Clearly later"??? Are you talking about mid-roundabout?

2nd exit is taken exactly as it says on the RoTR website as are all other ones after. That is exactly what I was taught when I started driving. I have never heard clocks mentioned until Vibe today

Zube

whiterebel wrote: »

2nd exit is taken exactly as it says on the RoTR website as are all other ones after.

But the rules say two different things: if the 3rd exit is straight ahead, should you treat it as "straight ahead" or "3rd exit"? If the 2nd exit is to the right, should you treat it as "2nd exit" or "later than straight ahead" ?

The rules as written and the text explaining the diagram conflict, and the diagram is a simplest case 4 way roundabout. It just isn't clear what the rules are for more complicated roundabouts.

vibe666

whiterebel wrote: »

How would you know the position of the exits on a roundabout you don't know?

i know what you mean. if only they'd put honking great big signs up showing you a diagram of the roundabout and it's exits with the names of the roads or their destinations on it. oh wait. :pac: (sorry, couldn't resist!)

whiterebel wrote: »

Rule has always been 1st and 2nd exit stay left, anything after 2nd start right, pull out into the outside and indicate left at the exit before yours.

no it doesn't, sorry. the picture in your link shows a roundabout with 4 entrances and exits, but the text does not mention the number of exits, rather the position of them on the roundabout, either 'left', 'straight on' or 'right'.

no, it doesn't specifically mention the 12 o'clock rule, but it's a very common way for instructors to help people visualise a roundabout as they approach it and pick the correct exit and I DO wish it was mentioned in the text because it would clear things up for everybody.

as you see it in the diagram, approaching from the 6 o'clock position, if you exit anywhere between 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock you take the left lane (unless it is blocked or you are directed to or the road markings dictate otherwise) and you take the right hand lane for all exits after that.

yes the ROTR section could be construed as ambiguous on the subject, but given that it is the standard method of negotiating a roundabout all over the rest of europe, you'd have to assume that this method is what was intended.

read the text in link again (even use your browser to search it), there is no mention of the number of exits at all, as it is totally irrelevant.

?Cee?view

vibe666, thanks for setting out the position correctly.

However, this thread makes me lose hope.

I don't agree that the RSA's rules are ambiguous. It's clear that their reference to first, second and third exits refer to the illustatrative diagram and the diagram is merely used to illustrate the lanes used to turn left, go straight and turn right on a roundabout. The rule is applied whether there are two, three or thirty three exits off the roundabout. The only exception to the rule is where road markings indicate otherwise and in that case, road markings take precedence.

It's as if there's a strong, "this is the way I've always done it so I'll continue to do it", attitude to lane use in Ireland. Can it not be accepted that we've had (and still do, though to a lesser extent) an antiquated road network in Ireland which rendered lane discipline as merely an academic exercise and thus we all need to learn and relearn how to use roads? Most of our roads until relatively recently were so narrow as to be single lane. Can people not accept that driving is a continuing learning process and we all need to keep up to date with the rules and brush up on our skills?

In fairness, they are probably naive questions. We've even had a Guard on here who spouts the usual first two lanes of a RAB left lane and the others right nonsense, and claims that his opinion is based on statute - even though the Rules of the Road contradict him!!! Granted, the Rules of the Road do not enjoy statutory authority, but they certainly are not drafted to directly conflict with (his imagainary) contrary statutory provisions.

All, just read the rules. Accept that we can all be wrong...and continue to learn. That way we can all drive without getting our blood pressure up.

Zube

churchview wrote: »

I don't agree that the RSA's rules are ambiguous. It's clear that their reference to first, second and third exits refer to the illustatrative diagram and the diagram is merely used to illustrate the lanes used to turn left, go straight and turn right on a roundabout.

I agree with your interpretation since if the text describing the diagram is the general rule, it contradicts the other statement of the rule for more complicated junctions.

However, it certainly is ambiguous as written.

?Cee?view

Zube wrote: »

I agree with your interpretation since if the text describing the diagram is the general rule, it contradicts the other statement of the rule for more complicated junctions.

However, it certainly is ambiguous as written.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the way it's written in the Rules.

Hopefully when they come to do another version, they'll make it even more clear.

Maybe they need to state what the example doesn't mean i.e. it doesn't mean that the 3rd exit is always approached in the right lane etc?

It's really simple once everyone remembers, LEFT, STRAIGHT and RIGHT. There are only three options, regardless of how many exits are off a Roundabout and how many of each exits are in each direction.