Do people really hate Voyager and Enterprise?

Mal-Adjusted

There is a lot of flak thrown the way of Voyager and (especially) Enterprise. I'm just wondering how much of this is real and how much is simply following the crowd. certainley they can't live up to DS9. if people dislike them, fair enough, but so many times, i've seen them described with the words hate, despise, terrible, etc. i honestly don't see what either of these shows could have done to warrant such strong negative reactions.

Woden

Hate is a strong word. While they are not my favourites of the treks they both had there moments.

I recall really enjoying the final season of enterprise and some of the later seasons of voyager.

DiddyBiddy

I agree. I like both shows but they have their flaws. I always thought voyager started out great but got boring and that enterprise started out boring/cheesy but actually got quite good. I think alot of enterprises problems have to do with that awful song they had at the start

roadwars

What was there to hate about 7 of 9??

Goodshape

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

i honestly don't see what either of these shows could have done to warrant such strong negative reactions.

Basically, they squandered their inheritance and ****ed up the family business.

They were never the worst thing on tv (probably fall into the "rubbish I'm prepared to watch" category for me personally) but they were pretty poor and compared to what could have been crafted out of the Star Trek universe, they're very very disappointing.

Goodshape

roadwars wrote: »

What was there to hate about 7 of 9??

Boldly going where pretty much every struggling tv show in search of the male 13 - 24 year old demographic has gone before.

Inspired stuff.

nyarlothothep

In relation to Voy the plots were awful, it was repetitive/bland. Janeway is a very unsympathetic character. 7 of 9 could have been very cool but she was just in your face and another Vulcan/serious alien clone, I think they got the idea for seven right with T'Pol in Enterprise's defense. On the subject of Enterprise, its strange but I find it more compelling than Voy, despite its baffling and profound stupidity I never found it as bad as its made out to be. The difference between Voy/Ent and TOS/TNG and DS9 is that where I would actually give these shows my full attention I just have the former on as background noise, sometimes dipping into them if I have nothing else to do.

Khannie

DiddyBiddy wrote: »

I always thought voyager started out great but got boring and that enterprise started out boring/cheesy

This about sums it up for me. I never made it past season 1 of enterprise and by season 7 of voyager I found it more than a bit yawn. I did enjoy voyager for a while though.

User45701

i dont hate either of them - ive seen almost every episode of both a min of twice. an episode has to be very very bad for me to only watch once

the voyager episode where chakatoy has to dream boxing match fight to make first contact or some such bolllox

the enterprise episode that is somehow on earth as an old western or something

Johnny Storm

FWIW I truly hate Enterprise because IMHO it is a lazy, cynical, could-it-be-any-dumber, p1ss-take of what Star Trek is actually about. No offense intended to anyone.
For me Voyager mostly falls into the "rubbish I'm prepared to watch" category but with a few quite good eps. Certainly, in retrospect, Enterprise makes Voyager look good

chopperbyrne

The first few seasons of Voyager were good, but they really started going downhill from Season 5.

They ruined one of the greatest villains in sci-fi history.

Year of Hell was an excellent episode and is what the last series of Voyager should have been like. In Borg space, fighting for survival constantly.

Instead, they bitchslapped the Borg at every opportunity.

They also could have made more of the Starfleet/Maquis split. Three episodes in, they were one big happy family.

Voyager had some fantastic episodes though, the one with Tom and Harry in the prison stands out for me.

Enterprise just had so much retconning that it was hard to take it seriously at all.

Slice

I think the very best episodes from each series stand up pretty well to the best episodes from all the other series as do the very worse episodes stink just as much as the very worse episodes of all the other series.

Mal-Adjusted

Slice wrote: »

I think the very best episodes from each series stand up pretty well to the best episodes from all the other series as do the very worse episodes stink just as much as the very worse episodes of all the other series.

out of quriosity, what would you say those best & worst episodes were?

Khannie

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Year of Hell was an excellent episode and is what the last series of Voyager should have been like. In Borg space, fighting for survival constantly.

Instead, they bitchslapped the Borg at every opportunity.

Agreed. This got a bit boring after a while. "Oh look....certain death....oh look....no problem at all".

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Voyager had some fantastic episodes though, the one with Tom and Harry in the prison stands out for me.

Damn, that /was/ a good episode. You're right, there were some quality moments in Voyager.

Rawr

roadwars wrote: »

What was there to hate about 7 of 9??

Well now, if you had asked me, "What is there to hate about Voyager?", my answer would have been "7 of 9".

Do these series deserve hatred...nah...the work itself isn't usually as hate-worthy as, the likes of 'Batman and Robin', or Jackie Chan's 'The Medallion' (watch that and you will know true hatred for what you are seeing)

I would say that there are elements of each show, that prevented me from enjoying them all the way though. TNG and DS9 had shows and near entire seasons that I didn't like at all...but that was usually offset by a wealth of good-stuff.

However, for the lenght of Ent, and more than half of Voyager, I couldn't enjoy what I was seeing. All I could see was a horrible mess of poor writing, poor acting, poor directing, or a combination of the three.

Taltos

Have to agree with alot of above.

Voyager - got quite boring and repetitie - Neelix - too much like that annoying creating from the Star Wars movie... Basically besides the Doctor - who else was there to have fun with here. Bit like watching soap dry.

Enterprise - crap music - could have been good - but that last bit with the time war - OMG - US vs Saddam and Terrorists anyone??? That and all the messing with the history just got too much. Some really good characters but they got too caught up in the war on terrorism. But that is what TV does some days - it acts as a mirror or safe outlet for what is going on.

Saddened by the loss of Ent though - especially at how good it could have really been.

GenghisCon

Am I the only person who thoroughly enjoyed the 3rd season of Enterprise? To be honest I thought it was, pound for pound the most compelling season of any trek show. While taken in its entirety, Enterprise is somewhat overwhelming I think the last two seasons really showed potential and took some daring risks plot wise. Would have loved to have seen that continued but such is life...

Mal-Adjusted

GenghisCon wrote: »

Am I the only person who thoroughly enjoyed the 3rd season of Enterprise? To be honest I thought it was, pound for pound the most compelling season of any trek show. While taken in its entirety, Enterprise is somewhat overwhelming I think the last two seasons really showed potential and took some daring risks plot wise. Would have loved to have seen that continued but such is life...

funny enough but yea, think about it, in most peoples eyes the first two seasons of DS9 were largley a waste, as were the first three seasons of TNG. based on this, ENT hit it's stride right on que! it's a shame that t.v. is so cut-troaght these days. if the increase in quality was anything to go by, seasons 5,6 & 7 could have been phenominal. but that is, of course, supposition.

Slice

GenghisCon wrote: »

Am I the only person who thoroughly enjoyed the 3rd season of Enterprise? To be honest I thought it was, pound for pound the most compelling season of any trek show. While taken in its entirety, Enterprise is somewhat overwhelming I think the last two seasons really showed potential and took some daring risks plot wise. Would have loved to have seen that continued but such is life...

As far as story arcs go I though this one was way better than what DS9 came out with

chopperbyrne

Slice wrote: »

As far as story arcs go I though this one was way better than what DS9 came out with

The Dominion story arc lasted four full seasons and never got stale.

Lobelia Overhill

I liked both series, I don't remember ever having that feeling of only watching out of loyalty to the Trek Universe which I did get towards the end of Stargate Atlantis, and The X Files...

Slice

chopperbyrne wrote: »

The Dominion story arc lasted four full seasons and never got stale.

I dunno, I found the arc in Enterprise way more varied and far more gripping than the DS9 arc. You could argue that the DS9 arc didn't get stale if you conveniently overlooked the many and increasingly desperate attempts to recapture what was great about Way of The Warrior with every season finale; season opener and season two-parter thereafter

FutureGuy

TNG found its feet after season 3, as did DS9. Voyager had some of the best 2-parters of any trek (Basics and Year of Hell spring to mind). Enterprise had 2 poor seasons followed by 2 very strong years. If Manny Coto had gotten a fifth season, I think it would have been excellent.

Goodshape

The first couple of TNG seasons weren't that bad. Much more inline with TOS than what came afterwards. I also really enjoyed the first few seasons of DS9. I like my Trek episodes to be mostly self contained science fiction stories... story-arcs can be great but just don't offer the same intrigue and escapism that the best Trek stories do.

TNG and DS9 both had a very definite turning point once they 'settled in' but I think it's unfair to compare their earlier seasons with Voyager or Enterprises low-points.


Also, I've seen a few episodes from ENT season 3 and 4... maybe you have to watch them all sequentially to get into it? Not sure I have the willpower for that. Can't really remember watching any episode of ENT that didn't have me shouting at the screen due to some stupid plot or wincing at the dreadful acting.

Tar.Aldarion

I love every series of trek, each for different reasons. So everybody has a different opinion and it doesn't really matter OP.

Mal-Adjusted

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I love every series of trek, each for different reasons. So everybody has a different opinion and it doesn't really matter OP.

well & good for you, but i was wondering why ENY & VOY get such a bashing from the fans. if you're not going to contribute, why post?

Tar.Aldarion

Because they think they are ****, duh, story, script and acting. Star Trek has been loved by people for a long time and they would hate to see a series ruin it. I was saying why do you care what they think. If you don't know the answer to your question before you asked it you are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Mal-Adjusted

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Because they think they are ****, duh, story, script and acting. Star Trek has been loved by people for a long time and they would hate to see a series ruin it. I was saying why do you care what they think. If you don't know the answer to your question before you asked it you are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

http://www.cracked.com/article_16605_8-most-obnoxious-internet-commenters.html

i'm afraid you're number 6. have a nice day:D

chopperbyrne

Virgin1 showed a lot of good Voyager episodes today.

Year of Hell Part 2 is on right now.

It was part of a greatest ever Star Trek thing.

Apparently they'll be showing more from 11am next Saturday too.

You can vote here: http://www.virgin1.co.uk/shows/we-love-star-trek/favourite-episode-poll.php

Spon Farmer

VOYAGER and ENTERPRISE were two great ideas that were very badly handled.
VOYAGER should have been more gritty in tone, more DS9 best friend, rather TNG's little sister. no matter what happened the ship was always spotless and running in the next episode. half the crew were terrorists yet there was no conflict between them and Starfleet crew members. all perfect little examples of Mankind. Janeway was uninspiring. I liked the EMH though.
ENTERPRISE was good. decent balance of action and drama. likeable but under developed characters. never been a Bakula fan, but Archer was an okay captain, except when he did his tough guy Judge Reinhold routine. I laughed the first two times, and cringed for the rest of the series. never accepted that he could be Kirk's cvhildhood hero. the Temporal Cold War plot was ridiculous and irritating and killed the series chance to make it on it's own. the last season was fantastic. Manny Coto should have been in charge since the start. having the Enterprise based mainly in our solar system and only getting to stretch it's nacelles on special missions was how the series should have started.

btw, did they ever reveal the identity of the holographic guy who was organizing the Suliban?

tj-music.com

I could never really warm up to Enterprise, yet I liked some of the "alternate universe" episodes and T'Pau was HOT. Voyager, in my opinion, could have been better, especially Captain Janeway wasn't convincing enough at times. I would have loved to see Chakoteh as captain or B'lana Torres because they seem o have more guts.

But Voyager had a good crew and memorable characters and storylines.

I do feel however that in comparison to TOS and TNG as well as, to a certain extend, DS9 it lacked "heart" and because they were always trying to get home, everything felt rushed.

But HATE is too strong a word to be used.

monellia

Voyager had many redeeming qualities. The overall theme was unique and original without the writers having to change things too much. I loved the way most of the episodes had an underlying message, and I also liked the way the characters' personalities were explored and developed a lot more than in TNG and DS9.

Enterprise was probably my least favourite of the franchise but I defo don't think it deserves the disparagement it gets from ST fans. It was accessible to non-trekkies, had interesting storylines and the cinematic aspects were sublime. I liked it anyway.

duffman13

I have always been a serious trekkie, right from the TOS till Voyager and DS9. I waited with baited breath for enterprise, really thought it had a lot off potential after a couple of episodes. The main problem for me was i couldnt relate to the charachters, in DS9 there was more gritty determintion not to give up by the crew and the characters and relationships developed well. It really gave the viewer something to relate to, this was the main reason i could never get into Enterprise.

In defence of Voyager after the first episode and they ended up in the Delta quadrant it was always gonna be hard to keep it fresh, i actually enjoyed every series off it and really liked the final episodes however there are a couple off episodes that were poor and never actually made a point. I do find some of the Borg storylines good but also a bit ridiculous based on past experiences of Starfleet with the Borg. If Voyager had off been before TNG it probably would have been more acclaimed by Trekkies

Pride Fighter

I have about half a dozen friends who like star trek. All of them prefer TNG as the number 1 series and they all agree that DS9 was the worst of the series. I would agree with them, I'd put Enterprise and Voyager in the middle of TNG and DS9 with TOS 1st.

livinginkorea

I watch TNG when I was a lot younger so don't remember it much at all. I finished DS9 a couple of months ago and I really liked it. A pretty big cast too with characters coming back again and again. Good story lines too (around a war which no other series did) except I got tired of the 'religion' part at times. I think Voyager lacks a large cast, but it is good to watch, I just started season 6. Not so sure if Voyager would be better than DS9 though to be honest. No idea about Enterprise yet. It's on my to do list but I have heard a lot of people complaining about it.

_Kaiser_

monellia wrote: »

Voyager had many redeeming qualities. The overall theme was unique and original without the writers having to change things too much. I loved the way most of the episodes had an underlying message, and I also liked the way the characters' personalities were explored and developed a lot more than in TNG and DS9.

I was with you right up till this point. DS9 had FAR superior character (and secondary character) development over its run. Think back to how characters like Garak, Rom, Nog changed over the 7 years. Even the alternate universe characters went through more changes than Voyager's primary cast!

In Voyager:
- Chakotay hardly changed at all save for a out-of-nowhere romance with Seven in the finalé
- Ditto Harry Kim. 7 years as an ensign until he finally makes captain in an alternate future that now never happens
- Tuvok, Torres and Paris do a bit better but the bulk of the storylines (and thus any development) went to the Doctor, Seven and Janeway.

As for Enterprise... rubbish from start to finish, save for the alternate reality "In a Mirror, Darkly" two-parter which was really only any good because the actors played characters that were completely the opposite their normal dull selves. Plus the alternate title sequence was creative.

Blazer

I like Enterprise..episodes such as the first human transporter...where the Prime directive came from etc.
Voyager I disliked..couldn't stand Janeway and they destroyed our image of the Borg. The Doctor and Tom were the only characters I liked..
DS9 was a fantastic show ruined by a few ****e episodes every season.

I'd go: Original/TNG, DS9, Enterprise,Voyager

norrie rugger

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I have about half a dozen friends who like star trek. All of them prefer TNG as the number 1 series and they all agree that DS9 was the worst of the series. I would agree with them, I'd put Enterprise and Voyager in the middle of TNG and DS9 with TOS 1st.

And you would all be wrong

norrie rugger

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

I like Enterprise..episodes such as the first human transporter...where the Prime directive came from etc.
Voyager I disliked..couldn't stand Janeway and they destroyed our image of the Borg. The Doctor and Tom were the only characters I liked..
DS9 was a fantastic show ruined by a few ****e episodes every season.

I'd go: Original/TNG, DS9, Enterprise,Voyager

You can not ruin a season with 1 or 2 crap episodes
Just like you can not save a season with 1 or 2 good ones

norrie rugger

tj-music.com wrote: »

T'Pau was HOT.

Interesting taste


Or as she was in Enterprise, still not great

norrie rugger

Now T'Pol
Phwarrrr

Mal-Adjusted

norrie rugger wrote: »

And you would all be wrong

calm down mate, everything here is subjective. there is no right & wrong:D

norrie rugger

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

calm down mate, everything here is subjective. there is no right & wrong:D

Silly thing about text based conversations
I was just being sarcastic, sounded better in my head

now leave me alone to look at the T'Pol pic, yum

komodosp

They also could have made more of the Starfleet/Maquis split. Three episodes in, they were one big happy family.

This pretty much epitomises what I didn't like about Voyager. There was so much potential for conflict to make it interesting. They were trapped in a claustrophobic-ish ship, Starfleet and Maquis being forced to work together, excellent opportunity for character development, with the crew being at odds with each other, but trapped together.
I thought they could have made more of Tom Paris - he came from a penal colony, but the most rebellious thing he did is talk naturally (as opposed Starfleet formal language the rest of them seem to do) and try to have a bit of a laugh.
You had the Borg which are loved because they are a powerful, scary menace, one ship capable of wiping out a whole Armada. Yet even they are defeated in Voyager.

In TNG, the character development wasn't the greatest either, except maybe with Worf and Data, but it offered great mystery, and kind of twist endings to their stories. They didn't simply reverse polarity on the ionic phase pulse manipulators to get them out of every jam. Especially in the early to middle series, which IMHO are TNG's best...

Pride Fighter

norrie rugger wrote: »

You can not ruin a season with 1 or 2 crap episodes
Just like you can not save a season with 1 or 2 good ones

Like DS9, utter muck.
Season 1, no good episodes
Season 2, utter muck, 1 good episode, the season finale with the runabouts fighting the Jem'hadar.
Season 3, first good one but still weak. Season opener good, first ep with the defiant. Thomas Riker episode. Gabriel Bell episode, Obsidian order/Talshiar invasion of dominion, season ending episode. Rest was muck.
Season 4, muck. Only good episode the way of the warrior. Disappointing ending with Odo turned human.
Season 5, decent in patches, episode with the crashed Jem hadar ship good. Introduction of the dominion to Alpha quadrant good.
Season 6, I despised parts of it. Particularly the episode with Sisko as a Sci-Fi writer in the 1950's, worst idea ever.
Season 7, I despise Vic Fontaine. Worst character ever.

DS9, great in parts, mostly muck.

Johnny Storm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

...
Season 6, I despised parts of it. Particularly the episode with Sisko as a Sci-Fi writer in the 1950's, worst idea ever.
.....

D'oh!

nyarlothothep

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Like DS9, utter muck.
Season 1, no good episodes
Season 2, utter muck, 1 good episode, the season finale with the runabouts fighting the Jem'hadar.
Season 3, first good one but still weak. Season opener good, first ep with the defiant. Thomas Riker episode. Gabriel Bell episode, Obsidian order/Talshiar invasion of dominion, season ending episode. Rest was muck.
Season 4, muck. Only good episode the way of the warrior. Disappointing ending with Odo turned human.
Season 5, decent in patches, episode with the crashed Jem hadar ship good. Introduction of the dominion to Alpha quadrant good.
Season 6, I despised parts of it. Particularly the episode with Sisko as a Sci-Fi writer in the 1950's, worst idea ever.
Season 7, I despise Vic Fontaine. Worst character ever.

DS9, great in parts, mostly muck.

Vic Fontaine was a daft character. The whole 60s mafia fantasy subplot was completely out of place in star trek, very un trek imo.

Rawr

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Vic Fontaine was a daft character. The whole 60s mafia fantasy subplot was completely out of place in star trek, very un trek imo.

He pretty much ruined what was an ok final season for DS9. If I rememebr right, they even had an episode dedicated to this damned character. (I cannot rememeber details of that episode, as I cannot bring myself to watch it.)

Berman and Co. seemed to have a thing for crooners and this particular genre of music. It crops up quite a bit in TNG era series. One might be mistaken, in thinking that they were trying to generate interest in it again, by brainwashing Trekkies! :-)

The Black Oil

I've not seen Enterprise so I can't comment there.

Nelix and Harry Kim - head. brick. wall.

Mal-Adjusted

The Black Oil wrote: »

I've not seen Enterprise so I can't comment there.

Nelix and Harry Kim - head. brick. wall.

To be fair, Harry Kim got some much needed character development and decent stories later on in the show. i actually found myself liking him from season 4 on.
Neelix...Grr. All i can say is that from season three on, his role is MUCH more reduced.

dyl10

DS9 and Voyager were good.
Enterprise is trash.

Don't ever put vocals in a Star Trek intro again!