Should adultery be illegal?

Rob!

No of course it shouldn't be illegal! what do you want, a nanny state?

I'm aware its not a nice thing to see happen but lets face it, as time passes we seem to be wrapping ourselves with excess rules and regulation. Add political correctness to the equation and you'll realize that we live in a society where you can no longer do or say anything without being slapped on the wrist by the legal system. Everybody wants to sue and everybody wants compensation!

I saw a lady in cork try to sue a bank 2 weeks ago cuz she tripped on the curb outside their branch. They we're offering free ice cream on the day, hence causing the street to be overcrowded. But come on; she doesn't deserve compensation - she was merely a ******* idiot not looking where she was going. If she's that stupid, fragile and susceptible to the unexpected then she shouldn't be allowed outdoors! Now imagine if adultery was punishable? Think of all the stupid people nationwide clogging up the legal system, making our courts look like a scene from jerry springer! - not the mention all the time wasted trying to prove to validility of peoples claims.

Its just not worth it - or even moderately logical for that matter. And I'm sure men and women do it for very different reasons. e.g. a horrible wife/husband who refuses any form of sexual contact with you but who threatens to try to deny you the right to ever see your children if you ever attempt to divorce. - I'm not saying thats common, rather just displaying the fact that its not a topic of black/white simplicity.

Zombrex

The punishment should fit the "crime"

I don't think locking people up is an appropriate punishment for breaking someones heart. The argument that it breaks up marriages is a bit false, it doesn't break up a marriage any more than a divorce does. Why they get divorced is some what beside the point.

If people are worried about it a prenup where you get everything if your wife/husband cheats on you and it ends in divorce should suffice

Dave!

Can't believe anyone honestly believes this

No, it shouldn't be illegal. Should we bring in a law against dishonesty/lying also?

Sure let's just go all out and enshrine the Mosaic law in the constitution, you'd love that wouldn't you Jakass? :rolleyes:

philologos

Dave! wrote: »

No, it shouldn't be illegal. Should we bring in a law against dishonesty/lying also?

Based on the harm principle, I think that adultery should be legislated for in some way.

I don't think dishonesty or lying in general should be punished no, mind you in certain contexts dishonesty and lying can be punished, particularly if you are involved in corruption. Unfair business practices can also find you in court. In many contexts dishonesty and lying are legislated for. I mean you can be put in jail for perjury. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with any of these legal principles being punishable.

Dave! wrote: »

Sure let's just go all out and enshrine the Mosaic law in the constitution, you'd love that wouldn't you Jakass? :rolleyes:

If you had read the entire thread, I have softened my opinion some what as it would be very difficult to legislate for adultery given Ireland's current divorce laws.

This thread isn't about enshrining Judaic laws at all. Rather I feel that even from a non-religious perspective that the ones who are hurt by adultery get a raw deal in comparison than adulterers. Nor was this thread about my particular religious beliefs.

tbh

Jakkass wrote: »

I mean you can be put in jail for perjury.

bit different. Perjury is lying about something that's already happened.

What you are suggesting is putting someone on trial for lying about something they may do in the future. Who's to say that someone makes their vows, believing in them 100%, and then stuff just happens further down the line?

Kevo

I strongly disagree.

Ignoring the idiocy needed to consider such legislation, it would be very costly and impractical to implement.

I know several people who would be considdered guilty of this and believe me, things are often not black and white.

I imagine that the only people who would support this are either strongly religious or have been cheated on before and are looking for revenge.

tbh

Jakkas, imagine you're the minister. Give us an idea of how the proposed legislation would be worded?

philologos

tbh wrote: »

Jakkas, imagine you're the minister. Give us an idea of how the proposed legislation would be worded?

If you read earlier in the thread, that's what was being discussed. There are a lot of problems in relation to how this could be executed in Irish law due to the fact that one has to wait 5 years for a divorce. The only way that this could become operational would be to speed up the time that is necessary for a divorce which I think would undermine marriage more than offer effective redress to someone in the case of adultery.

Some people clearly just haven't been reading to my previous posts in this thread before they started to post.

Dave!

Jakkass wrote: »

Based on the harm principle, I think that adultery should be legislated for in some way.

Because it harms the spouse, or because it harms the institute of marriage/society?

What about if a husband decides he wants to stay out late drinking with his friends regularly, and the wife disapproves? Could lead to the marriage breaking up and the wife being hurt. Jail sentence?

What about, as I mentioned, lying? If I was constantly lying to my wife about things, to the point that she couldn't trust me, then it could lead to the marriage breaking up. Jail sentence? Maybe just a large fine?

Why is infidelity the transgression that you hone in on? And what about all the other ones that may lead to a divorce?

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think dishonesty or lying in general should be punished no, mind you in certain contexts dishonesty and lying can be punished, particularly if you are involved in corruption. Unfair business practices can also find you in court. In many contexts dishonesty and lying are legislated for. I mean you can be put in jail for perjury. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with any of these legal principles being punishable.

See above. I'm talking about lying within the context of a marriage.

Jakkass wrote: »

Rather I feel that even from a non-religious perspective that the ones who are hurt by adultery get a raw deal in comparison than adulterers.

That's too bad I'm afraid. You can't constantly insulate people from being hurt or getting upset by introducing legislation. It's not the state's job to micro-manage people's lives.

tbh

Jakkass wrote: »

If you read earlier in the thread, that's what was being discussed. There are a lot of problems in relation to how this could be executed in Irish law due to the fact that one has to wait 5 years for a divorce. The only way that this could become operational would be to speed up the time that is necessary for a divorce which I think would undermine marriage more than offer effective redress to someone in the case of adultery.

Some people clearly just haven't been reading to my previous posts in this thread before they started to post.

don't get narky, please. I read your posts. I just haven't seen any specifics. Would you propose to prosecute in every single case of adultery, regardless of circumstances? If there are to be exceptions, what would they be?

philologos

Dave! wrote: »

Because it harms the spouse, or because it harms the institute of marriage/society?

I meant it in the case of harming the spouse. However, the second case could also be made. I think it's seriously underestimating the pain that can be caused by adultery by not even considering that there should be some form of redress to the one who is hurt by this.

Dave! wrote: »

What about if a husband decides he wants to stay out late drinking with his friends regularly, and the wife disapproves? Could lead to the marriage breaking up and the wife being hurt. Jail sentence?

That isn't infidelity to his marriage. I think it's a bit rich to compare the pain caused by marital infidelity to someone going out for a drink without his wife's permission.

Dave! wrote: »

What about, as I mentioned, lying? If I was constantly lying to my wife about things, to the point that she couldn't trust me, then it could lead to the marriage breaking up. Jail sentence? Maybe just a large fine?

Again, that isn't infidelity to a marriage.

Dave! wrote: »

Why is infidelity the transgression that you hone in on? And what about all the other ones that may lead to a divorce?

Infidelity is the one I hone in on because if one wants to dissolve a marriage one should deal with it honourably instead of violating it behind his spouses back.

Dave! wrote: »

That's too bad I'm afraid. You can't constantly insulate people from being hurt or getting upset by introducing legislation. It's not the state's job to micro-manage people's lives.

We do all the time. The law is there to vindicate against wrongdoing. I think your attitude of "it's just too bad" is highly insensitive. I don't see why adulterers should be favoured to their spouses whose marriage is being violated legally. It doesn't make sense to me.

Lets say the spouse develops psychological issues as a direct result of this and becomes suicidal. Are we just to say "ah too bad"?

I personally don't see how we can accommodate this legally here. I wish we could though.

philologos

tbh wrote: »

don't get narky, please. I read your posts. I just haven't seen any specifics. Would you propose to prosecute in every single case of adultery, regardless of circumstances? If there are to be exceptions, what would they be?

I'm not getting narky, I'm merely saying that I've already been through it. I've pretty much changed my mind due to the way divorces are carried out here, but I am still sympathetic to the idea.

I don't think there is any room in Ireland to prosecute against adultery. I wish there was some form of adequate redress we could use for those who are affected by it though.

Dave!

Jakkass wrote: »

I meant it in the case of harming the spouse. However, the second case could also be made. I think it's seriously underestimating the pain that can be caused by adultery by not even considering that there should be some form of redress to the one who is hurt by this.

That isn't infidelity to his marriage. I think it's a bit rich to compare the pain caused by marital infidelity to someone going out for a drink without his wife's permission.

Again, that isn't infidelity to a marriage.

You present extramarrital affairs as being the only offence that could cause harm to the spouse, the only thing that could lead to the marriage dissolving and the hurt party left in emotional distress. Why?

It's only one such offence that could cause such a thing, and I mentioned two others. Why do you disregard them? I didn't say going out for a drink without his wife's permission -- I was suggesting that the husband's social life was leading to neglect of his wife/marriage, and therefore putting strain on the relationship and causing his partner emotional pain.

Seriously, how can you say adultery should result in JAIL because it harms the other party, but other things should be let go because they're not "infidelity to a marriage".
I'm getting the impression here that your interest lies in the fact that the adulterer is disgracing/undermining the INSTITUTE of marriage, rather than because one party is left upset. If not, then why wouldn't you attempt to legislate against other forms of dishonesty within a marriage?

Jakkass wrote: »

We do all the time. The law is there to vindicate against wrongdoing. I think your attitude of "it's just too bad" is highly insensitive. I don't see why adulterers should be favoured to their spouses whose marriage is being violated legally. It doesn't make sense to me.

Nobody's being favoured -- if the marriage didn't work out for some reason, that's unfortunate, but it happens. You're suggesting a form of 'oneupmanship' where because someone crosses a person, the law should step in. Life doesn't always work like that. What if the wife spent years mistreating the husband, bullying him, disparaging him, etc., and the husband sought refuge in someone else's arms. Are they even then? Should he still be punished?

Jakkass wrote: »

Lets say the spouse develops psychological issues as a direct result of this and becomes suicidal. Are we just to say "ah too bad"?

We give them psychological treatment, but legally yeah we say "too bad".

You're proposing legal intervention in a personal relationship simply because someone feels hard done by. That's not right. Do we give husbands a slap on the wrist if they refuse to do the dishes one day?

philologos

Dave! wrote: »

You present extramarrital affairs as being the only offence that could cause harm to the spouse, the only thing that could lead to the marriage dissolving and the hurt party left in emotional distress. Why?

It's the degree of harm. Splitting up families, and crushing people emotionally and causing psychological harm is serious enough to me. I don't think we can currently punish against it in Ireland, but I sympathise with it greatly.

Dave! wrote: »

It's only one such offence that could cause such a thing, and I mentioned two others. Why do you disregard them? I didn't say going out for a drink without his wife's permission -- I was suggesting that the husband's social life was leading to neglect of his wife/marriage, and therefore putting strain on the relationship and causing his partner emotional pain.

The degree of harm caused by adultery is worthy of being legislated for than numerous other things. We have to put these things on a scale and see how worthy they are of being legislated for. Again, I don't think we can legislate for it in Ireland.

Dave! wrote: »

Seriously, how can you say adultery should result in JAIL because it harms the other party, but other things should be let go because they're not "infidelity to a marriage".
I'm getting the impression here that your interest lies in the fact that the adulterer is disgracing/undermining the INSTITUTE of marriage, rather than because one party is left upset. If not, then why wouldn't you attempt to legislate against other forms of dishonesty within a marriage?

I've asked you repeatedly to read my posts before replying to me, please read this one in particular. I've personally doubted my original opinion on this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60087588&postcount=116

Dave! wrote: »

We give them psychological treatment, but legally yeah we say "too bad".

I think that's not adequate. That's why I posted this. Actually, I posted this as a means of interesting discussion rather than for people to get aggressive about it because I merely disagree with them. Alas, it appears that some things just can't be discussed reasonably on boards.

Dave! wrote: »

You're proposing legal intervention in a personal relationship simply because someone feels hard done by. That's not right. Do we give husbands a slap on the wrist if they refuse to do the dishes one day?

Degree of harm. Adultery is far more serious than "not doing the dishes". See it's this attitude that I precisely cannot understand.

Dave!

Don't be so defensive, I'm aware that you're no longer advocating introducing legislation, but you do agree with it in principle and that's what I'm challenging.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

That isn't infidelity to his marriage. I think it's a bit rich to compare the pain caused by marital infidelity to someone going out for a drink without his wife's permission.

That is sort of the point.

Why is infidelity considered worth of a year in jail but something else isn't, even if it ends up emotionally hurting your husband or wife?

How do you quantify the emotional pain caused to someone else by something you do?

Do we lock people up for lying to their husbands? Or do we only lock them up if they lie to their husbands about certain things? And how do we decide that one lie is more harmful than another lie.

Say a gay man marries a woman who doesn't know he is gay. They have a miserable marriage and every month he flies to Birmingham to meet the man he is in love with, telling his wife he is working. But they never have sexual relations

Do we lock him up? Do we only lock him up only if he sleeps with his partner?

me_right_one

Jakkass wrote: »

This is a question which I have wondered for a while. I personally have concluded yes on this one.

I see no reason why a marriage as a legal contract should not incur a penalty on the ones who violate it, preferrably a lengthy enough jail sentence. In cases of adultery people seem to see it as an acceptable part of society. I'd like to know why people think it is acceptable though if it can cause so much pain and if it can cause serious damage to families. Surely violating a contract as great as this is worthy of such a penalty.

Also for anyone who has a bit of a clue about legal history in Ireland, was adultery ever illegal here, if so when and for how long?

I've left a poll up, I suspect that it will go a certain way, but just out of curiosity just in case I am surprised it may be worth looking at.

Yes. Yes, adultery should be illegal.

DeCoR18

It should absolutely be illegal, anyone who is against it is fairly suspect to be honest.

Rob!

Jakkass wrote: »

Lets say the spouse develops psychological issues as a direct result of this and becomes suicidal. Are we just to say "ah too bad"?

Ah YA - pretty much! It's a personal issue, so government intervention is a definite no no! oh and really, you make it sound so one sided. You really think most men/women get married with intent to cheat? There's a very high probability that they have affairs because they are extremely unhappy.

cause of said unhappiness? = bad treatment by spouse.

So start realizing that both parties suffer.

i ain't advocating adultery, but the principal of making it a crime is to say the least - ******* ridiculous.

That god the poll is showing that common sense prevails.

andrew

Adultry is a symptom of a bad marraige. Adultry doesn't cause marraiges to break up, bad marraiges cause marraiges to break up. So why make a symptom of a bad marraige illegal? It's not as if people will be any happier wanting to cheat on their partner but being prohibited by law to do so. Furthermore, I don't see why people shouldn't be allowed to have a wife/husband and then a bit on the side, if all parties are cool with it. Unconventional arrangements can be just as successful as conventional ones, and who is anyone else to decide what constitutes a good arrangement in a specific instance. Also, what makes marraige different from a long partnership that having an affair should be illegal in the case of marraige only. A married couple don't necessarily love each other more just because they have a piece of paper saying they're married .

Damn, got into this thread late, this has probably been said before. Just thought I'd put it out there...

philologos

andrew wrote: »

Adultry is a symptom of a bad marraige. Adultry doesn't cause marraiges to break up, bad marraiges cause marraiges to break up.

So you're telling me that a marriage has never broken up because one partner has cheated on another?

Nevyn

How is adultery being defined for the purposes of this discussion?

As fornicating with a person who is married and not sperated?
As fornicating with a person who is married and not yet divorced?
as fornicating with a person outside of marriage reguardless of the martail status of either person?

philologos

We've encountered some issues in respect to legislating for adultery. I don't think it is possible given the way Irish divorce law is laid out. I would have held it in relation to couples who are married but not yet divorced.

However, I think some posters have brought brilliant ideas to the thread about people deciding what marriage they want to be in. That'd allow a lot of freedom and would put to rest the kind of objections that people say that laws against adultery would be enforcing one view of marriage on another.

Nevyn

Given that it takes at least two years to be declared legally sperated and then only after that can a couple start the process to apply for a divorce for criminal adultery to be aimed at people who are still legally wed doesn't make a lick of sense imho.

philologos

Thaedydal wrote: »

Given that it takes at least two years to be declared legally sperated and then only after that can a couple start the process to apply for a divorce for criminal adultery to be aimed at people who are still legally wed doesn't make a lick of sense imho.

That's the problem that was raised a few pages ago.

I still hold a great sympathy for those who are cheated on in marriage and have no form of redress.

andrew

Jakkass wrote: »

So you're telling me that a marriage has never broken up because one partner has cheated on another?

No one entirely happy and satisfied in their marriage has ever committed adultery is what I'm saying. The cheating might be the icing on the cake, but even if that partner didn't cheat I'd say that that marriage was doomed anyway

tbh

Jakkass wrote: »

That's the problem that was raised a few pages ago.

I still hold a great sympathy for those who are cheated on in marriage and have no form of revenge.

fyp

miec

I don't believe it should be made illegal because it is a simplistic response to a complex issue. To slap criminal procedures on a person who commits adultery does not compensate for the pain caused to the other person, that person will still be hurt by it. Furthermore, in my opinion there are worse crimes within a marriage than adultery such as physical, emotional and sexual abuse, bullying and controlling the other person. Legislating adultery means you are treating people as children that they are incapable of handling their own lives and must be controlled by the government. It irks me so much that so many people want the government and society to legislate the individual. Marraige is a community between two people, not a contract. The two people in the marriage have to make it work through communication not rely on punitive measures to control their behaviour.

philologos

miec wrote: »

Legislating adultery means you are treating people as children that they are incapable of handling their own lives and must be controlled by the government.

One could say that we are treating people like children for legislating against theft. They should be grown up enough to deal with it themselves. It's not that great an argument when it comes down to it.

andrew

Jakkass wrote: »

One could say that we are treating people like children for legislating against theft. They should be grown up enough to deal with it themselves. It's not that great an argument when it comes down to it.

Property rights are vital to the functioning of society, that's why the government takes a role in protecting them and legislating against theft. Legislating against adultry would be overstepping the mark and imposing some sort of government morality on what is essentially personal matter, which, as I've said before, is just a symptom of marital breakdown.